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(The Consumerist)   If you think turning off the ignition, standing on the brakes, or putting the car in neutral will stop your out-of-control Toyota or Lexus, boy are you in for an amusing twist   (consumerist.com) divider line 724
    More: Scary, Lexus, Toyota, mats, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, maximum speed, guard rail, tow trucks, overrides  
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45030 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Feb 2010 at 12:21 PM (5 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-02-24 04:20:48 PM  
icy_one: So we're in agreement that she's a terrible driver? I don't know how many times I've seen it on the news just this winter that when you lose control of your vehicle you do not pump the brakes but apply firm pressure.

Yeah, she's no "little ol' lady from Pasadena," that's for sure.
 
2010-02-24 04:22:03 PM  
wotnartd: I know I'm now posting in no-man's land, but I have a simple, simple question for whomever reads this:

Why did the car stop accelerating at 100 mph?


Because that car went beep beep beep
 
2010-02-24 04:24:26 PM  
wotnartd: Why did the car stop accelerating at 100 mph?

I know with my GP, if I hit the governor (which doesn't actually kick in until 127MPH on the GP), it'll kill the engine until I get below 100MPH. Maybe a system like that kicked in?

The highest speed she mentions is 100MPH, but I don't know if that was the peak speed. The governor setting for the ES350 is around 130-something though, so maybe not.
 
2010-02-24 04:32:12 PM  
Aren't all the idiots that can't read and reason supposed to be on the Politics Tab? This thread is hilarious!
 
2010-02-24 04:34:12 PM  
Mr. Coffee Nerves: I gotta admit, I've been one of the "Just put it in neutral, asspipe!" guys since the very start, but as more and more evidence comes out making it apparently an electronic, not a mechanical, issue in these cases I definitely was wrong.

I still think it would be a better world if standards for getting a driver's license were tougher - especially requiring training for handling normal day-to-day emergencies that arise with a machine as incredibly complex as a car -- but when the computer running the engine tells the computer running the transmission to go fark itself and there's no physical link between anything I'm not sure what the best option would be.


Buy a stick-shift.
 
2010-02-24 04:36:51 PM  
Smidge204: Google tells me this is the interior of a 2007 Lexus ES3500. Here's a closeup of the gearshift:

I think that picture answers the question completely. She put the beast in tip-tronic mode and kept shifting up thinking she was putting it in neutral.
 
2010-02-24 04:38:13 PM  
im14u2c: wotnartd: Why did the car stop accelerating at 100 mph?

I know with my GP, if I hit the governor (which doesn't actually kick in until 127MPH on the GP), it'll kill the engine until I get below 100MPH. Maybe a system like that kicked in?

The highest speed she mentions is 100MPH, but I don't know if that was the peak speed. The governor setting for the ES350 is around 130-something though, so maybe not.


That's a control system I only know of in Pontiacs. My dad's Avalons each hit and stayed at the limiter, same in my mom's Corolla, their old 2001 Town and Country hit 118 and stayed right there. All of my previous cars acted much the same, I haven't tested my current car, to the brink, but there was nothing at 110.

Her testimony would mean multiple errors in multiple systems all at the same time, on a virgin auto. It seems highly unlikely to me, but what do I know? I'm just a guy.
 
2010-02-24 04:38:27 PM  
i went and found the 911 call for the CHP accident on youtube. One of the suggested videos has a Consumer Reports video demonstrating how to stop a vehicle with a stuck accelerator, the test vehicle being some keyless toyota:
Link (new window)
 
2010-02-24 04:40:07 PM  
labman: Anything software controlled can have problems. Maybe they used the same programmers who wrote the flight control systems for the predator UAV (new window).

(from the link about the cause of a crash of a predator: A second procedural error of note occurred when the pilot accidentally activated a program that erased the internal random access memory on board the aircraft during a flight. That this was even possible to do during a flight is notable in itself and suggests the relatively ad hoc software development process occurring for these systems)


Reminds me of the SAM missile defense systems the US used to protect Kuwait from Saddam's chemical attacks. Turns out they had a rounding error and after several hours of continued use they could no longer track incoming missiles.

This was only discovered after an attack killed several American soldiers manning a station - the temporary fix was to reboot the computers until a more permanent software fix was found.

Unfortunately you can't really reboot your car ;-)
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2010-02-24 04:46:21 PM  
GoodOmens

The Patriot missile system was supposed to be fleeing across Europe one step ahead of the Soviet hordes, not parked in one place for days. The system met its original spec.
 
2010-02-24 04:47:25 PM  
kendelrio: Smidge204 False. The battery is an integral part of the charging system. If you remove the battery you break the circuit and the alternator loses its excitation field, shutting it down.
=Smidge=

Maybe I'm simple, but...

2 things.... Why is the easiest way to see if you have a faulty alternator is by removing the positive (that's the "+" side of the battery) cable from the battery? Car dies, faulty alternator. Car runs, good alternator.

Please explain to me how it is possible I have taken a fully charged battery out of a car that was running to put it in a vehicle that wasn't (didn't have jumper cables) put said battery in a vehicle with a dead battery, started it, removed the good battery and put dead battery back in to be charged and replaced the original battery in the 1st car WITHOUT turning either off.


(Here's a formula for the mathematicals out there:

Car with good battery= AG
Car with bad battery=BB

AG-G= Car running
BB-B+G= Car started charging system working
BG-G+B= Car started, charging system charging, battery being charged
A+G= Car running original battery replaced
Sum: 2 cars with working charging system both running at one point or another without a battery.


Removing the battery battery cable from a running car is never the way to check an alternator. Many cars with good alternators will stop running when the system is disrupted like that anyway. Some won't. At best it's inconclusive. What it WILL do is put an incredible amount of stress on both the diodes in the alternator and, on cars that have one, the circuitry in the onboard computer. Just because it worked on grandaddy's 65 Ford doesn't mean you should do it to a modern car with extremely expensive electronics. It's probably better to run by one of the stores that will check those items both on or off your car for free rather than burning out that $500 alternator or circuit board. I won't even start on the wisdom of creating sparks next to a possibly bad battery. Of course, everyone's free to do what they want.
 
2010-02-24 04:47:26 PM  
TFV: "As the car came very slowly to a stop, I pulled it to the left median. With the car stopped and both feet still on the brake, the motor still revved up and down. At 35 miles an hour, it would not shut off. Finally, at 33 mile per hour, I was able to turn the engine off."


So, first the car stopped, then you couldn't turn it off at 35mph, and THEN you turned it off while it was going 33mph? Right, lady...

Even if we gloss over that, and even if we accept that EVERY distinct user interface control in the car failed simultaneously, and even if we further accept that the brand-new emergency brake didn't have any effect: She "accelerated with everyone else, into the flow of traffic" (i.e. there were plenty of other cars around) - and yet she managed to not hit anyone while driving an out-of-control car for 6 miles at 100mph, dialing and talking to her husband on the phone, and playing with all the controls...all at the same time. This woman is the most awesome driver and multi-tasker EVER!

I'm thinking someone skipped class on "reality check" day at witness coaching school...
 
2010-02-24 04:48:57 PM  
Does anyone who is actually familiar with the mechanical diagrams of this vehicle know if what is alleged to have occurred is actually possible?

Is the transmission selector physically linked with a gear actuator?

I am having a really hard time believing that this is a factual account..
 
2010-02-24 04:49:29 PM  
HansensDisease: benlonghair: But you had mechanical connections to the brakes, e brake and transmission. As opposed to the possibility of software going into meltdown and nothing responding.

Although I suppose the brakes in a Lexus are probably mechanical with power assist.

I practically had to stand on the brakes though. Meanwhile, steering onto the breakdown lane as not to be eaten by trucks. I got it into neutral, opened the hood, yanked on the cable and drove home.

Cellphone lady probably panicked and didn't/couldn't hammer the brake pedal down. She probably couldn't get it to shift and the processor didn't reset for a minute. She did say she traveled 6 miles, so the timing is about right.

Pretty badass maneuvering, especially for a leper.
 
2010-02-24 04:50:13 PM  
icy_one: im14u2c: The math and timing works for me. I don't think anyone would sit down and work all the algebra on this just to get on the news. All the facts seem quite plausible to me.

So a Lexus has crappier brakes than a Camry?


The only comparable car in that article was the G37 - which has a system that cuts the throttle when the brakes are applied (Which is why the results are the same). The article which that graph pulled said Toyota lacks that feature.

If you factor in more torque and HP it's plausible that the engine was overpowering the brakes.

From another article on C&D:

Although all the brake components at the wheels-calipers, pads, rotors-get toasty, most of the heat ends up in the rotors. The rotors then dissipate the heat to the atmosphere through convection cooling (vents in the rotors help the cooling process). But it takes time for the brakes to cool, and if you keep working them hard, they tend to get steadily hotter. If they get hot enough, the pads exceed their maximum operating temperature, causing them to lose friction against the rotors. To overcome this loss of friction, the driver must press harder on the pedal. And if the calipers get scorchingly hot, the brake fluid starts to boil, which introduces vapor bubbles into the hydraulic circuit. When this happens, the brake pedal fails, collapsing to the floor because the pedal pressure is simply compressing the bubbles instead of squeezing the pads against the rotors.
 
2010-02-24 04:51:25 PM  
GoodOmens: Unfortunately you can't really reboot your car ;-)

news.sky.com

Like hell I can't... imma put my boot up its ASS!!!
 
2010-02-24 04:51:50 PM  
oldfarthenry: Let's see - the government pours BILLIONS into the domestic auto industry then TA-DA - their major competition gets raked over the coals over recall issues.

QFT
 
2010-02-24 04:54:35 PM  
Sofa King Smart: Deucednuisance: H31N0US: I was on the fence between a Ford Ranger and a Toyota Tacoma but now I think I will buy a Tacoma.

The Tacoma is the far superior truck.

(Yes, I own one: 2003. Only things I've ever replaced on it are tires and fluids. Well, them and the catalytic converter some tweaker sawed off for the $40 worth of platinum in it. Great truck, and with the 4x4 package it was exceedingly capable in our recent 64" of snow. Can't recommend it highly enough. Just be sure to park it where you can see it.)

friend of mine bought a new 4x4 Tundra last year... and has had one of the two converters sawed off 3 times now... for a total cost to his insurance of $7K! (lives on the north side of Indy)


Just let it go man, cause it's gone.
 
2010-02-24 05:00:48 PM  

So we're in agreement that she's a terrible driver? I don't know how many times I've seen it on the news just this winter that when you lose control of your vehicle you do not pump the brakes but apply firm pressure.


Wait, I thought that you pumped the brakes if you don't have ALB and you firmly pressed if you did.

My car doesn't have anti-lock brakes; have I been screwing up by pumping them during snowy/icy weather?
 
2010-02-24 05:10:50 PM  
manimal2878: Ingaba: I know it's not the best option to take in the event of runaway acceleration, but before I took the time to fish my cell phone out of my pocket and make a call I would have turned the key in the ignition to the off position and shut the car down.

If your car is ramping up in speed, wouldn't you need both hands on the wheel to steer around things and avoid obstacles? I find it incredibly unlikely she could have made a phone call and paid attention to the road enough to avoid wrecking.



Depending on road and traffic conditions I find this entirely believable. There are a couple of sections of road near me where the traffic flow is not congested and it regularly cruising around 85 and sometimes a bit faster. Driving on that talking on your cell phone is done regularly by people. I've also done well over 100 miles on I-5 in central California where I have no idea how fast I was going because the speedo which topped out at 100 mph was buried the whole time. Didn't make any phone calls but did get the cup out of the cup holder and take a few swigs at this speed. Side not its amazing how slow 85 feels after you've been going that fast for awhile.

In most moderately decent sedans made since the 90's as long as the car is properly maintained and its a relatively smooth road the cars are comfortable and controlable at that speed. Smaller econo boxes aren't great but aren't excessively bad either. We aren't talking really high end cars hear either, A dodge stratus, Ford crown vic, a grand am, an accord, and a concord have all been up over 85 and most been at or over 100mph since 2000 with no real concerns about using the cell phone or sipping a soda at that speed. The only vechiles that have been uncomfortable at those speeds were a PT cruiser which is in part the fault of the owner/driver/maintainer of that car, and a dodge ram 1500 which I've had over 85 a few times comfortable but doesn't like curving or bumpy roads at that speed.
 
2010-02-24 05:11:50 PM  
Last summer I went all over my 20+ yr old car with its at-the-time new electronics system. The only way one of those things will work ideally is with all the sensors working. Over the years they go out of spec, quit working, short out.. But at that point in time the electronics are just for fuel and emissions regulation. Sensors go bad, it idles rough and your MPG drops. That's it.
So.. with all these new electronic-system based cars,
it's a bad sensor, computer, or connector, and this is happening with cars less than a few years old, then imagine the fun 10+ years.

It's a unfortunate combination of events. Remember the Pinto? Well, you could wreck them all day long and not set a fire,
but if the left turn signal was on during the wreck _and_ the gas tank was punctured, that would spark the fire. Good times.

Fix? I see the NHTSA regulating mechanical interlinks and key-based switches that really interrupt ignition power physically. Because despite the 'simplicity' of that ignition button, you need at least something mechanical to override the computer's opinion of your hastiness.

And yeah, manual transmission. Automatics are so foreign to me I feel like I'm driving a golf cart, not a car.
 
2010-02-24 05:13:10 PM  
In my most recent Car and Driver magazine, i read an article in which they tested increasingly powerful cars. They came to the conclusion that any car, regardless of power, will be able to come to a stop. Accordingly to the cars tested, even a Roush Stage 3 mustang came to a complete stop (100 to 0 mph) in less than a thousand feet.
Link (new window)

/graph at the end of the article
 
2010-02-24 05:13:20 PM  
this looks like a job for the ex-drivers:

/ex-drivers
 
2010-02-24 05:18:30 PM  
Ingaba: FootInMouthDisease: Which would then lock the steering column.

So, full throttle, the engine is pulling no vacuum so your brakes are weakend significantly, and now you can't steer the now ballistic missile you are buckled into.

Brilliant! You totally thought out that reply!

I'm sure you felt real smug and clever as you clicked 'add comment' though.

I never said to remove the key, if left in accessory the wheel will not lock.

Curious...how will you be at full throttle if the engine is off?


You are assuming the engine will turn off.
 
2010-02-24 05:28:47 PM  
did the car have a drive-by-wire system; if so it is a computer malfunction because every control goes through it. It needs new/better code or new/better fail-safe switches.

my 2 cents
 
2010-02-24 05:41:45 PM  
You know what this makes me think of? Fight Club...

i50.photobucket.com

A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
 
2010-02-24 05:46:48 PM  
darcsun: Story of hers is complete bunk. Throwing a car into reverse at that speed will gernade the transmission, at best. At worst, a RWD car could flip if the driveshaft came loose and pole vaulted the car. Here is a video of a guy racing his mustang and accidentally putting the car in reverse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNLz9E92-FU


If the electronic transmission detects the shift. If it's broken, it might not shift. MORON. Don't open your fat stupid face about things which you know nothing.
 
2010-02-24 06:03:53 PM  
I am willing to bet that the root cause of all this is outsourcing the software development to the cheapest bidder, probably some cowboy outfit in China well beyond the reach of the Japanese courts.

/Meanwhile I'll stick with my 1999 MGF and it's mechanical faults
 
2010-02-24 06:11:14 PM  
Calling bullshiat on this.

1. She went 6 miles and didn't think to hold down the Start/On/whatever button for 3 or 5 seconds (whatever the time length is)? She didn't think to grind the car against the concrete dividers?

2. This is only one data point. If what she said was true, there should be tens of thousands, perhaps even hundreds of thousands of incidents so far. There are maybe 2,000 incidents so far. And most of those will probably boil down to "Granny hit the wrong pedal".

She was trotted out to have an emotional impact on morons. She has no verifiable credibility at all.
 
2010-02-24 06:12:39 PM  
Katie98_KT: alywa: That car was a nightmare. Numerous times I'd think I was in gear, only to be in neutral. Or, I'd think I was in park, and lift my foot off the brake, only to lurch forward. For those of you who haven't driven one or ridden in one, for reasons only explicable to Toyota, they have a completely non-standard shift / drive selection mechanism.

thank you for proving my point. Some people are just too stupid to operate a car.

The parking brake has a light. If the light is on you're not going anywhere, how hard is that?


Out of idle curiosity, what happens if the LED/light bulb for that particular indicator has failed? Pressing the button 100 times would result in a "no light" situation, wouldn't it?
 
2010-02-24 06:19:51 PM  
Not through the entire thread yet, and this doesn't couldn't because it's a modification..

I've got a switch mounted to the bottom of the dash of my truck (2007 F-150). I flip that, and it kills *all* electrical power to the vehicle. Why? Twin yellow-top Optima battery setup, the better to power the 2500 watt power inverter without draining both.

Flipping that switch effectively kills the vehicle, as it takes the alternator out of the loop as well. No juice equals no spark, which means no combustion, and ultimately "no go."

Yeah, cool story... but it is a 100% effective "master kill switch" that 99% of today's modern cars don't have.
 
2010-02-24 06:20:31 PM  
"this doesn't count" instead of "this doesn't couldn't", because I'm too lazy to proofread.
 
2010-02-24 06:24:14 PM  
Of the eighteen motorycles I have owned since 1966, all but the oldest had a "kill switch" on the handlebars: push the button, the engine dies.

All of them had a fuel shutoff valve, so in the event of fire, you might lose the 2 ounces in your carb, and you might get your fingers burned, but it is unlikely the whole bike would burn.

However, I have been on the scene when a car has caught fire and had to stand by helpless; there was nothing I cpould do to shut off gasoline supply to the fire, and the whole car burned up.


Also, on every heavy diesel truck I have ever driven, there is an "emergency kill" switch which shuts off the air intake to the engine. Pull the lever---the engine dies.

I find it hard to believe cars do not have these features, they would cost $50 per vehicle tops, and would save many times their weight in insurance costs alone.

Any car experts out there got any ideas on this?
 
2010-02-24 06:26:09 PM  
darcsun: Story of hers is complete bunk. Throwing a car into reverse at that speed will gernade the transmission, at best. At worst, a RWD car could flip if the driveshaft came loose and pole vaulted the car. Here is a video of a guy racing his mustang and accidentally putting the car in reverse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNLz9E92-FU


You realize, of course, that most modern cars have what is called a "reverse lockout", which prevents reverse from engaging at speeds greater than 5-10mph? This has been the case since about 1982.

Two things with that video: 1) He's not running a stock transmission and 2) it doesn't have said lockout feature.
 
2010-02-24 06:27:57 PM  
Tony_Pepperoni: Like I say in all these car threads...
Emergency Kill Switch.


Problem solved.


That is the exact switch I have mounted to the bottom of my dash. Well, if not the same, then it's cousin.
 
2010-02-24 06:34:00 PM  
GoodOmens: darcsun: Story of hers is complete bunk. Throwing a car into reverse at that speed will gernade the transmission, at best. At worst, a RWD car could flip if the driveshaft came loose and pole vaulted the car. Here is a video of a guy racing his mustang and accidentally putting the car in reverse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNLz9E92-FU

With a electronic transmission the car won't let you put it in reverse, software in the ecu protects the car from this occurring. You can try physically, but nothing will happen.


Doesn't even have to be an electronic transmission. Hell, even the 350 and 450 Hydromatics (automatic transmissions from the 60s-70s-early 80s) had a lock-out paw that prevented reverse from being engaged at speed.

/shadetree mechanic
//yes, i have an EPROM programmer
///yes, cars are becoming INCREASINGLY had to work on as time moves on without ASA/ESE/company training
//K&N cold air intakes are good for any car.
/longs for chilton manuals
 
2010-02-24 06:35:07 PM  
kendelrio: Please explain to me how it is possible I have taken a fully charged battery out of a car that was running to put it in a vehicle that wasn't (didn't have jumper cables) put said battery in a vehicle with a dead battery, started it, removed the good battery and put dead battery back in to be charged and replaced the original battery in the 1st car WITHOUT turning either off.

One rare possibility is your car has a permanent magnet alternator. Very unusual but perhaps not impossible.

The other option is there is enough capacitance in your car's electrical system to maintain a voltage across the excitation coil. Was the car just idling? Did you manage to actually drive anywhere without a battery?

I've had plenty of cars - of all ages - that stall out when you disconnect the battery, or the battery is dead. Here's why:

img38.imageshack.us

Disconnect the battery and you're relying on the voltage regulator to feed the coil without a reference voltage to work with. One possible explanation is this:

img69.imageshack.us

In which case the capacitance of your car's electrical system will act as a battery of sorts. Try it again some time and turn the highbeams on...

Either way, I think you got lucky. As was mentioned that's a great way to fry your alternator or any other electronics in your vehicle. The voltage regulator must've been freakin' the fark out.
=Smidge=
 
2010-02-24 06:38:39 PM  
Zukipilot: So she can drive through fairly heavy traffic (always is in that area) at 100 MPH, while digging through her purse to get her phone and call her hubby, and watch the clock to know the ordeal lasted 6 minutes????

Know how I know you read neither the article nor the comments?

/hint: www.softsailor.com
 
2010-02-24 06:39:14 PM  
Jaws_Victim: mantabulous: Eddie Adams from Torrance: God was a real dick for letting her ride 6 miles at 100 MPH before stopping her car.

You forget that it's all part of his plan. His ways are beyond your understanding.

Bullshiat! 6 miles at 100 mph? Thats 600 miles! That's TORTURE!


you sir, fail miserably. 6 miles not 6 hours. i don't think she even has a fuel tank that would last 600 miles.

the stupid in this thread is mind-boggling.
 
2010-02-24 06:40:53 PM  
Kuroshin: floor9: manimal2878: %100 bullshiat.

I don't know about that, man. There are too many complaints to be ignored.

I'm not a mechanic, so the inner workings of these systems is beyond my skill level. But if the throttle is indeed a "throttle by wire" system, and if the transmission is also electronic, then it's not hard to imagine a software failure.

Software-based safety systems that lack active physical backups (I'm not sure of the exact terminology, but the kind of physical safety mechanism where the computer has to constantly work to bypass said safety, and if the computer fails for any reason, the safety is suddenly "unsuppressed" and kicks in) are notoriously unreliable.

The Therac-25 comes to mind.


I *am* a mechanic, and I'm also calling bullshiat on this one.

Every single control system would have to fail all at once in a very specific way for this to happen. The engine ECU would have to set throttle to full and the tranny ECU would have to lock itself in drive, shift gears, and refuse to accept all inputs (that's three failures in one).

Sorry, but no. Car management systems are not designed that way. Two separate computers would have to fail in very specific ways at the same time. The simplest answer is that the lady is lying about the tranny locking up because she is like the local Fark Brigade who wants everything to be Toyota's fault beyond any shadow of a doubt.

She didn't shift to Neutral, the car didn't try to re-start itself when her hubby allegedly moved the gear selector (WTF kind of bullshiat is that?!), and she didn't respond with all of that precision while playing Hercules on the brake pedal (ummmm, power assist and the ABS make that pointless - brake systems are not direct-control anymore).

She's making shiat up. End of story.


kuro: I'm not doubting you, but there's one thing that could have failed that would have ment crap-all to the individual ECUs: the master ECU.

I'm still on the fence. Saw the live feed, she looked legit, but the "perfect storm" scenerio means electornics, mainly the master.

Also keep in mind Toyota is still saying they don't have drive-by-wire, which throws the concept of individual engine management, trans management, and brake management into doubt.
 
2010-02-24 06:52:07 PM  
Slaves2Darkness: doglover: LOLIDRIVESTICKPAD

I always knew automatics were retarded, and this proves it. If it happened to me I'd try and hit the center wall maybe.

It is not the automatic transmission that is the problem, it is the farking electronics. They have a major bug somewhere in their code, and if I was guessing it is one that only happens after modules a, b, d, e, and f have ran, then module z runs for the square root of X multiplied by PI divided by the log of e time. Good luck figuring out what the fark that is about, also it is probably the most expensive piece on the entire car to fix.


Two months after I got my car, they determined that the ECU needed to be reprogrammed. I took it to the dealership and they hooked it up to an adapter and plugged it into a cat 5 port in the wall. The tech took me back into the office and said watch this. He tried getting on the internet and it was like he was on dialup. I asked him why he didn't just rechip it. The ECU was a $2900 part and the upload only took 4 hours. Mini was willing to take the whole dealership offline for less than 3K.

\I pointed out that next time they should just hook it up overnight. No one had thought of that.
 
2010-02-24 06:58:00 PM  
Deucednuisance: H31N0US: I was on the fence between a Ford Ranger and a Toyota Tacoma but now I think I will buy a Tacoma.

The Tacoma is the far superior truck.

(Yes, I own one: 2003. Only things I've ever replaced on it are tires and fluids. Well, them and the catalytic converter some tweaker sawed off for the $40 worth of platinum in it. Great truck, and with the 4x4 package it was exceedingly capable in our recent 64" of snow. Can't recommend it highly enough. Just be sure to park it where you can see it.)


Prior truck was a 94 Ford Ranger 5-speed manual, can't disagree with you; they haven't really been updated since 1992, excepting "cosmetics." Drove it for almost 14 years, sold it to my brother-in-law, still going strong 170K miles later (had to replace the water blow-outs in the block at 90K miles, long story). Clutch replaced at 110K.

On second thought, perhaps I do disagree with you. Heh... If you want an "older technology" small truck then the Ranger is the best choice. If you want a "newer technology" small truck, then I'd suggest the Nissan.

(I don't like the Tacomas, too close to F-150 size, which you should buy, unless you want a small truck, ergo Nissan or Ranger.)
 
2010-02-24 06:59:14 PM  
God I love posting towards the ends of active threads, no one reads my sage advice!

/my god has forsaken me, for I find myself posting at the end of threads that no one will read.
//Why god? This is margaret
 
2010-02-24 07:01:09 PM  
Keep a perspective on the recent Toyota issues as they relate to accidents and deaths

I feel people have short memories and that the media as a whole has an even shorter one. The current issue facing Toyota is an important example of this.

On August 12th, 1985 an American made Boeing 747 crashed in the mountains of Japan. 520 people traveling home for a national holiday were killed after a terrifying 32 minute effort by the flight crew to save the aircraft.

Only four people survived.

The American National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), the Japan Transport Safety Board and even Boeing, Inc., with reluctance agreed the crash was caused by the negligence of a Boeing, Inc. repair crew flown in during June 1978 to make a major repair to the critical aft pressure bulkhead. The final tragedy of this accident was the suicide of the JAL maintenance supervisor for the fix.

I have no specific loyalty to Toyota or any other organization involved in the recall or accident issues however I feel strongly that the media might serve everyone better to communicate that companies make mistakes. Tens of thousands of people are involved whether it be Boeing, Toyota or any other major manufacturer.

Any loss of life or injury caused by a manufactures' defect is of course horrible but we should all know and be reminded that America has had our share of errors as well.
 
2010-02-24 07:06:41 PM  
hophead929: HansensDisease: The throttle cable in my 70's era Pontiac Ventura got jammed once. The butterfly valve was full open and it was not much fun getting the car to a stop.

This happened several times to me on my 1984 Pontiac Sunbuzzard. Pontiac excitement!


I rolled over in a Pontiac Astre wagon.

/PONTIAC = People Only Notice This If Ambulance Comes
 
2010-02-24 07:08:55 PM  
bottsicus: I had a buddy with a '72 Nova that did the exact same thing.

I'm not surprised. They were pretty much the same car.
 
2010-02-24 07:08:57 PM  
ZAZ: I worked on a product with FDA fry-your-eyes class laser beams inside. If you opened the door a switch in the latch turned off power.

My TV has that. A little blue lever that is senses if the door is open or closed.

If the switch that the failsafe lever actuates shorts out....poof...eye melting wattage when you don't want it.

-the backstory - 61" DLP given to me free because it needs a new bulb. Get a new bulb...oh, it ALSO needs a new lens, buried way down deep in the light engine.
So, my DIY self is in the middle of replacing this 'lens'. And no, NOT with an OEM plastic lens.

If it doesn't work, I'm out a dollar or two. If it does...hey, mostly free widescreen.

/open heart surgery on a $3000 TV
//my living room looks like an operating theater
 
2010-02-24 07:09:01 PM  
Thunderpipes: davidw001: Thunderpipes: Japanese cars are great! I will never buy an American car again, the quality is terrible. I hate America! Buy Japanese!

Farking dumbasses get what they deserve. Traitors. Die in a fiery crash.

Dude, don't sit too close too your tv, it may not be made in the states.

I buy American when I can. Thing that makes me laugh is the people who just won't shut their wussy little mouths about how awesome Japanese cars and how bad American cars are, when the data does not support this at all. Now one of the biggest recalls ever, and people will still make excuses for those Zero flying asshats bombing our battleships. Screw them.

Just feels good knowing that millions of liberal weirdos are sad inside because their overlords have failed.


Until Chevy gets their Opels here stateside and Chrysler (read: Fiat) gets their Fiats over here and Ford *finally* gets their European-counterparts over here(Fusion, Focus, Focus RS, etc), which would you buy:

A BMW M3 or a current American-made Focus RS? I'm in the M3 camp until the above happens.

Trucks are a different story. Owned a Chevy and Toyota, drove a Nissan extensively and have been a passenger in a Dodge.

I'm a Ford truck guy. The End.
 
2010-02-24 07:14:58 PM  
Cymbaline: Thunderpipes: davidw001: Thunderpipes: Japanese cars are great! I will never buy an American car again, the quality is terrible. I hate America! Buy Japanese!

Farking dumbasses get what they deserve. Traitors. Die in a fiery crash.

Dude, don't sit too close too your tv, it may not be made in the states.

I buy American when I can. Thing that makes me laugh is the people who just won't shut their wussy little mouths about how awesome Japanese cars and how bad American cars are, when the data does not support this at all. Now one of the biggest recalls ever, and people will still make excuses for those Zero flying asshats bombing our battleships. Screw them.

Just feels good knowing that millions of liberal weirdos are sad inside because their overlords have failed.

Until Chevy gets their Opels here stateside and Chrysler (read: Fiat) gets their Fiats over here and Ford *finally* gets their European-counterparts over here(Fusion, Focus, Focus RS, etc), which would you buy:

A BMW M3 or a current American-made Focus RS? I'm in the M3 camp until the above happens.

Trucks are a different story. Owned a Chevy and Toyota, drove a Nissan extensively and have been a passenger in a Dodge.

I'm a Ford truck guy. The End.


I'm quoting myself without cutting down but I don't care: I want myself a Fiat 500 Abarth YESTERDAY! NATCH!
 
2010-02-24 07:27:33 PM  
www.reelfilm.com

Bully You Say!!!
 
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