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(The Consumerist)   If you think turning off the ignition, standing on the brakes, or putting the car in neutral will stop your out-of-control Toyota or Lexus, boy are you in for an amusing twist   (consumerist.com) divider line 724
    More: Scary, Lexus, Toyota, mats, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, maximum speed, guard rail, tow trucks, overrides  
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45024 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Feb 2010 at 12:21 PM (4 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-02-24 02:30:42 PM
StreetlightInTheGhetto: I really do hate all of you right now. RTFA, or failing that, RTFT, or failing that, STFU.


I did RTFA before I made my comment. That's what raised suspicions in my mind. Do you have any specific things that you take issue with or are you just being a reactionary jerk and making spurious assumptions?


bhcompy: I'm not saying she's not lying, but have you ever been in a harrowing experience? I remember vividly every detail of my first car accident(a head on collision) that happened 11 years ago, and after talking to others about it, it seems that my experience/memory is not uncommon(including the whole world seemingly moving in slow motion)


More than once, which is one reason why her account struck me as suspect... I remember SOME details, but for some chick panicking in a car she seems to have been awful thorough and methodical... And sure I remember SOME of the details quite vividly, but others not at all. The way this woman recalls details she might be a Drell...
 
2010-02-24 02:30:47 PM
TheBitterest:
Jesus: Hey dad, let's make this woman's car go 180kph, I've got $10 that says she still uses her cell phone.

God: You're on.


I worship you.
 
2010-02-24 02:32:02 PM
Meepsta: ihatedumbpeople: Incident happened in 2006? I wonder when...our AllData system doesn't show the ES350 model was available until the '07 model year.

New models are generally released Late July/August for the following model year. Some vehicles, like the 2010 rush, '10 models were being sold/released in end of 08. Its all about marketing.


um no--its about the best mechanic software telling that a certain year make or model doesn't exist...meaning the crazy lady is batshiat and stupid. marketing...wtf?
 
2010-02-24 02:33:36 PM
Gnaglor: "Thank God for _____."

This can be an expression uttered by a non-religious person.


As God is my witness, I'm as guilty as sin of having done this myself.
 
2010-02-24 02:34:02 PM
yoshimi inaba looks like a bond villain.
 
2010-02-24 02:34:57 PM
mongbiohazard: StreetlightInTheGhetto: I really do hate all of you right now. RTFA, or failing that, RTFT, or failing that, STFU.


I did RTFA before I made my comment. That's what raised suspicions in my mind. Do you have any specific things that you take issue with or are you just being a reactionary jerk and making spurious assumptions?


bhcompy: I'm not saying she's not lying, but have you ever been in a harrowing experience? I remember vividly every detail of my first car accident(a head on collision) that happened 11 years ago, and after talking to others about it, it seems that my experience/memory is not uncommon(including the whole world seemingly moving in slow motion)


More than once, which is one reason why her account struck me as suspect... I remember SOME details, but for some chick panicking in a car she seems to have been awful thorough and methodical... And sure I remember SOME of the details quite vividly, but others not at all. The way this woman recalls details she might be a Drell...


On the other hand, she did have about three and a half minutes to think about all this, 6 miles at 100 mph. That's a fair bit longer than most people's brushes with death I read about.
 
2010-02-24 02:35:09 PM
Dan2ine: Hmmm is this the same woman?

good eye, you just might be right.
 
2010-02-24 02:36:26 PM
mongbiohazard: I did RTFA before I made my comment. That's what raised suspicions in my mind. Do you have any specific things that you take issue with or are you just being a reactionary jerk and making spurious assumptions?

It's been stated repeatedly that she did not need to fish a cellphone out of her bag or fumble while dialing the phone to talk to her husband. Repeatedly.
 
2010-02-24 02:38:02 PM
peewinkle: PRIUS'S DON'T HAVE "NEUTRAL." The "Drive", "Reverse", and the "Charge Battery While Coasting" options are it. There is a separate button for "Park."

/drives a Prius
//just to test it, I tried to "Power Down" the car while under acceleration. Button did nothing.
///actually hoping the thing takes off on me, I'll crash it and sue the shiat of some Toyota
//have not gotten a single recall on it, aside from the floor mats, which I knew as soon as I got the car were farked and got different ones
/I SAID I WILL SUE ME THE shiat OUT OF SOME TOYOTA


It does to have a Neutral. Hold the shifter knob to the left for a couple seconds and it will engage neutral.
 
2010-02-24 02:38:06 PM
Thunderpipes: kapaso: Thunderpipes: factoryconnection: redwards29a: Car and Driver concluded that, based on their emergency stopping tests, the Camry's brakes could overcome the accelerator in all cases even without a brake override, and that stopping distances with a wide-open throttle were largely indiscernible from regular braking.

I read that article, too, but I think the Camry had a 4-cyl and regardless is front wheel drive. It takes a lot more braking force to overcome the torque of a 3.5L V-6 than a 2.4L I-4. The E-brake does a lot better against non-driven wheels.

The Roush Mustang that they tested had some scary data... 700 feet to stop the car!

Well, 450 hp at full throttle is a little different than a 4 or 6 banger. We had the facts all out in another thread, Roush brakes are almost as good as a Vette, they are fantastic. Roush produces one of the best handling and performing cars anywhere near the price range. Yes, I am biased.

Biased and wrong.
Link

A lotus for a whole lot less.

I hope you are joking. You serious? Not even the same kind of car, jesus. Why not compare a motorcycle? Stupid Farkers always bring up stupid crap like that. Dumbass.

Oh ya, Lotus is 65-75k, Can get a Roush Mustang with all the handling and performance options for 45k. Moron.


We get it, you pretend to have a mustang, you think they are cool.

Modern Mustangs are horseshiat. The 2011 is the closest thing to a palpable version they've produced since the fox body 5.0's.

Even those were nothing to write home about.

And with all the money required to redo the suspension geometry of the front and rear end of your roush rustang, as well as getting rid of the arcane live rear axle, you'd still be looking at ~$75k.

And the Lotus would still deftly out handle you in any conditions.
 
2010-02-24 02:39:50 PM
StreetlightInTheGhetto: It's been stated repeatedly that she did not need to fish a cellphone out of her bag or fumble while dialing the phone to talk to her husband. Repeatedly.

Doesn't mean I have to believe it.
 
2010-02-24 02:41:17 PM
Smidge204: Google tells me this is the interior of a 2007 Lexus ES3500. Here's a closeup of the gearshift:

So if putting it into Neutral didn't work, it's probably because there is a horrifically retarded computer sitting between the gearshift and the actuators in the transmission.

If they had certifications on drive-by-wire systems even a TENTH of the robustness of fly-by-wire systems on commercial airlines, I'd be happy.
=Smidge=


Or, is it possible that she never actually found Neutral? If you look at the the pattern of that shifter, N is pretty out of the way, it'd be very easy to skip right by N and go on to 2 or 3 or whatever. Also, I believe that transmission is one of the ones that lets you shift up through the gears on your own if you want, or just put it in Drive...
 
2010-02-24 02:41:39 PM
FootInMouthDisease: Which would then lock the steering column.

So, full throttle, the engine is pulling no vacuum so your brakes are weakend significantly, and now you can't steer the now ballistic missile you are buckled into.

Brilliant! You totally thought out that reply!

I'm sure you felt real smug and clever as you clicked 'add comment' though.


I never said to remove the key, if left in accessory the wheel will not lock.

Curious...how will you be at full throttle if the engine is off?
 
2010-02-24 02:42:04 PM
floor9: ...computer fails for any reason, the safety is suddenly "unsuppressed" and kicks in) are notoriously unreliable.

The Therac-25 comes to mind.


THIS
 
2010-02-24 02:42:07 PM
mrshowrules: Nice little theory. I bet you are right. What prompted it, were you also wondering why they didn't release a statement on the heels of the testimony?


No, I wasn't wondering at all why they wouldn't do that. I've worked in PR before and it's what I would have advised... Don't respond directly because you'll look like the big mean corporate bully going after the poor victim regardless of how suspect her testimony seems to you.

Sometimes yes, you may want to rebut a damaging account, but not this time. Not when it's huge national news and you're being dragged in front of a congressional panel...
 
2010-02-24 02:42:55 PM
FootInMouthDisease: Modern Mustangs are horseshiat. The 2011 is the closest thing to a palpable version they've produced since the fox body 5.0's.

Even those were nothing to write home about.


Have they ever?

/72 chevelle
//ha-ha guy laughs at ford muscle cars
 
2010-02-24 02:43:21 PM
floor9: manimal2878: %100 bullshiat.

I don't know about that, man. There are too many complaints to be ignored.


And confirmation bias is a very powerful thing. Not saying that there isn't a core problem, here, but I wonder how many of these reports are people bending their experiences to match others' descriptions. And we are talking about the general public.
 
2010-02-24 02:44:35 PM
Gnaglor: "Thank God for _____."

This can be an expression uttered by a non-religious person. It's a turn-of-phrase. Example: "Thank God that fat woman at Wal-Mart didn't come out of the dressing room to early!"

Being that she says she was under the effect of panic, it is quite likely she said this regardless of whether or not she actually attributes the stopping of the car to God. Like when Sarah Silverman (read this recently so I remembered it first) says shes not religious except when she's on the floor of the bathroom being really sick.


Unfortunately she was not recounting what she was saying at the time of the incident, but rather recounting the incident itself:

After 6 miles God intervened as the car came very slowly to a stop.
 
2010-02-24 02:44:40 PM
Kar98: StreetlightInTheGhetto: It's been stated repeatedly that she did not need to fish a cellphone out of her bag or fumble while dialing the phone to talk to her husband. Repeatedly.

Doesn't mean I have to believe it.


So she just lied to Congress about using a Bluetooth for what, the hell of it?
 
2010-02-24 02:44:50 PM
StreetlightInTheGhetto: mongbiohazard: I did RTFA before I made my comment. That's what raised suspicions in my mind. Do you have any specific things that you take issue with or are you just being a reactionary jerk and making spurious assumptions?

It's been stated repeatedly that she did not need to fish a cellphone out of her bag or fumble while dialing the phone to talk to her husband. Repeatedly.



Thank you. Now show me where I claimed she did either of those things, you reactionary jerk making spurious assumptions...

I'll cut to the chase: I didn't. You made that up all on your own.
 
2010-02-24 02:45:58 PM
TwistedIvory: That's not really how cars work. For one, the parking/emergency brake is not electronic: It is a galvanized cable connected to the rear brakes.

I have a hard time envisioning an entirely electronic transmission selector, too.


I have a friend that leased a Passat for a while. It had an electronic E-brake, push-button style on the dash. I could not believe it - I refused to ride in the car, and brought up concerns with a lack of mechanical access to stopping power. Also, how the thing is supposed to work if the battery is dead/removed.
 
2010-02-24 02:46:55 PM
wiregeek: [Citation Needed]

Not because I think you're lying, I'd just like to hear that high-grade stupid caressing my ear meats.


I saw it on the local news of one of many sudden acceleration clips. But now looking for a link I can't find it, as most of the high profile deaths are dominating google of various queries i tried.

If that calls into question, that's fine by me.
 
2010-02-24 02:49:44 PM
labman: Anything software controlled can have problems. Maybe they used the same programmers who wrote the flight control systems for the predator UAV (new window).

(from the link about the cause of a crash of a predator: A second procedural error of note occurred when the pilot accidentally activated a program that erased the internal random access memory on board the aircraft during a flight. That this was even possible to do during a flight is notable in itself and suggests the relatively ad hoc software development process occurring for these systems)


if one of these were to be captured or shot down, i'm sure you wouldn't want the contents of the RAM to fall into enemy hands, hence the ability to erase RAM contents mid flight (and yes, it is possible to recover data from un-powered volatile RAM).
 
2010-02-24 02:50:55 PM
nyuhsuk: Very true. It really is a totally new set of instructions. What I meant by the FOB battery dying thing is how to start the car with the valet key when the wireless FOB can't be detected.

I'm not sure which car we're talking about here, but the toyota setup for a dead fob battery is "put fob in keyhole and start car." Essentially, the only downside to a dead fob battery is that you'll have to take it out of your pocket and insert it into the dashboard.
 
2010-02-24 02:51:16 PM
What I find interesting is all of the people in this thread saying there is no way the electronics in this car controls ALL of the functions. Than others come in and inform them that it is in fact true.

I would love to see the expression on there faces when they come to realization that the car they are driving has no physical connection from the gas pedal, the brake pedal or the transmission shifter to there corresponding function.

You know the first thought going through there head is "why the fark would they do that?".

Than they think, "Well, there MUST be a fail safe built in."

Toyota is really screwed over this.

And than they realize that there isn't and that Toyota has been installing the fail safe software fix while they are having the gas pedal "fixed".
 
2010-02-24 02:52:51 PM
Woops...

'Toyota is really screwed over this.' should of been last.
 
2010-02-24 02:53:15 PM
It takes 6 miles from highway speed at full throttle to hit 100 mph in a Lexus? A Ford Pinto could do better than that.
 
2010-02-24 02:53:16 PM
I just can't believe Toyota doesn't have a brake override switch. My 2000 VW Jetta had that feature. Foot on the break for three seconds? Throttle drops to idle.

Throttle Position Sensors fail.
 
2010-02-24 02:55:03 PM
"I put the car into all available gears, including neutral," she recalled about her fruitless attempt to slow the car down. Ms. Smith says she even put the car into reverse, in which position the gearshift remained as the car quickly reached a speed of 100mph.

After putting both feet on the brake and employing the emergency brake to no avail, Ms. Smith began to think that her only choice was to run her car into the guardrail, if only to save the other drivers on the highway.


If your car is speeding up and your first thought is to shift it into reverse rather than applying the brakes then you probably shouldn't be driving.
 
2010-02-24 02:56:55 PM
i've got a problem with the whole battery kill switch idea. the altenator is what runs the car the battery only starts it. so you'd have to put a kill switch on both to kill all power to the car while started. cause even if you kill just the altenator you've got 30 miles of reserve in the battery till that's dead.
 
2010-02-24 02:57:03 PM
MechTard: TwistedIvory: That's not really how cars work. For one, the parking/emergency brake is not electronic: It is a galvanized cable connected to the rear brakes.

I have a hard time envisioning an entirely electronic transmission selector, too.

I have a friend that leased a Passat for a while. It had an electronic E-brake, push-button style on the dash. I could not believe it - I refused to ride in the car, and brought up concerns with a lack of mechanical access to stopping power. Also, how the thing is supposed to work if the battery is dead/removed.


My Infiniti G37 cannot be placed into Neutral if your battery is dead. Also, the cool little feature with the automatic windows that slide down a bit upon opening and then back up when you shut the door sucks ass if the battery is dead. It will go down, but not back up. You have to jump the car and keep your finger on the window button to get it to go up and stay there and naturally let it die before you exit the vehicle if there isn't enough juice in your battery for a jump to work. Electronics can be pretty cool, but when there is a problem it is the worst thing on Earth.

I had an issue with my 84 Ford Bronco where the cruise control would randomly activate and it would accelerate to 55 mph on its own. Had to use parking break and put it in grass to get it to stop.

I was on the Beltway when a paint bucket flew out of a truck bed bc the asshat didn't have the tailgate up and his shiat secured and it hit my front fender putting my Prelude into a spin. Sadly I was manually shifting using the "SportsTronic" feature sans-clutch so the spin caused my car to stall due to the sudden change in RPM and gears. Thankfully I could put it in Neutral and start car and go to shoulder before being slammed into by an 18 wheeler, but had it been a new model with the fancy electronics, I probably wouldn't have been as lucky.

/Cool stories bro
 
2010-02-24 02:59:12 PM
neilbradley: And confirmation bias is a very powerful thing. Not saying that there isn't a core problem, here, but I wonder how many of these reports are people bending their experiences to match others' descriptions. And we are talking about the general public.

Yeah, things like this (new window)

The woman was attempting to place her Toyota Camry in park when the vehicle suddenly accelerated up the curb and through the window of the local laundromat.
 
2010-02-24 03:00:27 PM
Outlaw push-button start and make the ignition cylinder physically close a circuit to run the motor.
 
2010-02-24 03:02:33 PM
A little late to chime in with this, but since nobody else has answered it, the "little software flag checky thing" that everyone is mentioning, where an embedded processor will check to see if the processor is doing something it really shouldn't be (like looping somewhere and not getting out) is called the watchdog timer (at least in most cases).

A watchdog timer will reset a processor if the timer itself isn't reset after a period of time. if the code has crashed or is stuck, it won't get to reset the watchdog timer and the watchdog will eventually (after a few milliseconds, typically, though it is variable) reset the processor.
 
2010-02-24 03:02:43 PM
rigamrts: i've got a problem with the whole battery kill switch idea. the altenator is what runs the car the battery only starts it. so you'd have to put a kill switch on both to kill all power to the car while started. cause even if you kill just the altenator you've got 30 miles of reserve in the battery till that's dead.

False. The battery is an integral part of the charging system. If you remove the battery you break the circuit and the alternator loses its excitation field, shutting it down.
=Smidge=
 
2010-02-24 03:03:04 PM
Orange Guy: Wow this is so scary on a personal note. In 1971, I was driving my Dad's (VERY Fast) 426 cu. in. 1969 Ford LTD on Northern State Parkway on Long Island when the gas pedal stuck in the floored poition. (Hey, I liked to pass quickly...I was a teenager).

The accelerator linkage had caught, I later found. Soon I was rocketing forward at 100 mph on a winding parkway, dodging slower moving cars, until I got near an exit in Westbury that I knew to be fairly long and straight. The brakes weren't stopping the car, so I turned off the engine, promply blowing the engine, but I was able to get the car to stop. Ford replaced the engine in warranty.

If turning off the ignition wold not have worked like it has not worked in these Toyota/Lexus incidents, I would not be here to type this.

It was a great car ... sharkskin seats and all!


Sounds like.
 
2010-02-24 03:03:32 PM
AshHousewares18: Is this the thread where I get to brag about my manual transmission F-150 from 1997 and how much more awesome it is than them thar fancy luxury cars with their electronic controls?

Because mechanical stuff never fails, ever.


Not like this it doesn't.

A mechanical gas pedal fails, the mechanical and completely separate transmission control allows you to find neutral or a lower gear (manual or automatic). The non-ecu controlled key allows you to stop the engine. The mechanical brakes (mostly separate from engine, except for vacuum as previously mentioned) allow you to stop even if the engine is off. With these separate mechanical systems, single failure is possible (and dual failure is too however unlikely) but human intervention is also possible to avoid disaster. No single poinit of failure for everything exists.

Even if each electrical system is separate on these new vehicles, somewhere they will all eventually hit a single failure point even if that's the fuse panel. Catastrophy at that single point means you are a passenger along for the ride much and then the only thing is one word. First you scream that word then you actually do it.

I have experienced something similar to this in an all mechanical vehicle. Due to a cracked engine mount the throttle went wide open and stuck in my '72 Chevy (e/w dealer installed '71 LT-1). Dropped it into neutral. Then hit brakes. Problem avoided.

Since I had a rev limiter on it the engine did not grenade. Fixed the mount and that was that. Many years later I took that thing to the junkyard with 213,000 miles on a 95 degree day in stop and go traffic and the A/C going so cold you could see your breath. I still frown when driving by that junkyard.

Now, the $64 question. On those Prius controls, what does "B" stand for on the stick and is the separate "P" button for "Parking Brake" as some say, "Park" (for the transmission) as others say, or just "Pee" as in you've got no control of the car or your bladder?
 
2010-02-24 03:03:51 PM
This is a fundamental problem of humans desire for convenience. Every industrial machine (except cars) have emergency stop buttons. These are big-red buttons that are easy to slam a palm into in easy-to-reach places. They cut all power instantly (or in a safe manner depending on application) when hit and require manual turning to re-set the system into a usable condition. Why cars don't have these, I've never understood, and with all the computer control put into the ignition these days, it would seem absolutely necessary.
 
2010-02-24 03:05:31 PM
the money is in the banana stand: Also, the cool little feature with the automatic windows that slide down a bit upon opening and then back up when you shut the door

Can you explain this please? I'm baffled why one would want such a feature. Thanks.
 
2010-02-24 03:07:30 PM
Beer It's What's For Dinner: the money is in the banana stand: Also, the cool little feature with the automatic windows that slide down a bit upon opening and then back up when you shut the door

Can you explain this please? I'm baffled why one would want such a feature. Thanks.



Because cars are so well sealed anymore, it makes it difficult to close the car door otherwise. The air pressure inside the car would temporarily jumps without it.
 
2010-02-24 03:07:59 PM
garandman1a: No single poinit of failure for everything exists.

Is that really the case here? The accelerator is linked to the transmission controls? So when you get sudden acceleration the transmission simultaneously fails as well so you cannot shift into nuetral?

Because it highly unlikely one would have both fail at the same time.
 
2010-02-24 03:08:45 PM
randazza.files.wordpress.com

/Toyota's official stance on the matter
 
2010-02-24 03:08:51 PM
Beer It's What's For Dinner: the money is in the banana stand: Also, the cool little feature with the automatic windows that slide down a bit upon opening and then back up when you shut the door

Can you explain this please? I'm baffled why one would want such a feature. Thanks.


I imagine it's because the window is not framed, so the glass hits the vehicle(weather stripping) when you close the door.
 
2010-02-24 03:11:11 PM
chu2dogg: neilbradley: And confirmation bias is a very powerful thing. Not saying that there isn't a core problem, here, but I wonder how many of these reports are people bending their experiences to match others' descriptions. And we are talking about the general public.

Yeah, things like this (new window)

The woman was attempting to place her Toyota Camry in park when the vehicle suddenly accelerated up the curb and through the window of the local laundromat.


Hmmm mmm. With her foot firmly planted on the pedal she thought was the brake but happened to be the gas.
 
2010-02-24 03:11:28 PM
garandman1a: what does "B" stand for on the stick

"B" is your "engine braking" or "downhill" gear, for those places where the signs say "Don't ride your brakes all the way down the continental divide, you moron."

The "P" button puts the transmission in park. The parking brake is a pedal, like in, say... a Dodge pickup, rather than a handle in the center console.

But most importantly, if you find yourself sitting in the driver's seat of a car, and you find yourself unable to answer a question like "what does that part of my gear selector do?" or "where is the parking brake?" PLEASE OPEN THE MANUAL AND FIND OUT BEFORE DRIVING.
 
2010-02-24 03:11:30 PM
GoodOmens: darcsun: Story of hers is complete bunk. Throwing a car into reverse at that speed will gernade the transmission, at best. At worst, a RWD car could flip if the driveshaft came loose and pole vaulted the car. Here is a video of a guy racing his mustang and accidentally putting the car in reverse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNLz9E92-FU

With a electronic transmission the car won't let you put it in reverse, software in the ecu protects the car from this occurring. You can try physically, but nothing will happen.


True. Almost all cars have reverse lock out.. which is why the story is bunk.
 
2010-02-24 03:11:32 PM
raygundan: nyuhsuk: Very true. It really is a totally new set of instructions. What I meant by the FOB battery dying thing is how to start the car with the valet key when the wireless FOB can't be detected.

I'm not sure which car we're talking about here, but the toyota setup for a dead fob battery is "put fob in keyhole and start car." Essentially, the only downside to a dead fob battery is that you'll have to take it out of your pocket and insert it into the dashboard.


It's a little different for my ES350. You need to first take the valet key and jimmy a little slot in the door handle to access the door key hole. Then when you're in the car, just press the Start button with the dead battery FOB against it. It detects some kind of magnet or something close range to verify that the key is indeed present when its BT or whatever signal is not transmitted within the car's interior.

Nothing extraordinary but for the common owner/driver, that first part might baffle.
 
2010-02-24 03:12:30 PM
/came to make Christine, Transformers or Herbie reference
// massively late....


photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net
 
2010-02-24 03:12:40 PM
Big Man On Campus: This is a fundamental problem of humans desire for convenience. Every industrial machine (except cars) have emergency stop buttons. These are big-red buttons that are easy to slam a palm into in easy-to-reach places. They cut all power instantly (or in a safe manner depending on application) when hit and require manual turning to re-set the system into a usable condition. Why cars don't have these, I've never understood, and with all the computer control put into the ignition these days, it would seem absolutely necessary.

Because some asshole would undoubtedly slam his while driving on the highway because he thought the guy behind him was traveling too close. Or someone would hit it by mistake.

Or because they would just look tacky on a car dash.
 
2010-02-24 03:14:27 PM
the money is in the banana stand: I was on the Beltway when a paint bucket flew out of a truck bed bc the asshat didn't have the tailgate up and his shiat secured and it hit my front fender putting my Prelude into a spin.

Must have been one big paint bucket. Or was it your (over)reaction that put your 'lude into the spin?
 
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