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(The Consumerist)   If you think turning off the ignition, standing on the brakes, or putting the car in neutral will stop your out-of-control Toyota or Lexus, boy are you in for an amusing twist   ( consumerist.com) divider line
    More: Scary, Lexus, Toyota, mats, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, maximum speed, guard rail, tow trucks, overrides  
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45044 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Feb 2010 at 12:21 PM (7 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



724 Comments     (+0 »)
 
 
2010-02-24 08:53:43 AM  
It seems like in every thread about Toyota / Lexus, there's always a percentage of Internet Tough Guys (tm) who say "hurrr, I'd just put the car in neutral, I don't understand why everyone is so stupid".

So yeah, apparently that won't help.
 
2010-02-24 08:55:55 AM  
I take off the cruise control, but the car continues to accelerate. To make a long story short, I put the car into all available gears including neutral, but then I put it in reverse and it remains in reverse as the car speeds to over 100 mph down the interstate.

After 6 miles God intervened as the car came very slowly to a stop. I pulled it to the left median. With the car stopped and both feet still on the brake, the motor still revved up and down. At 35 mph it would not shut off. Finally, at 33 mph, I was able to turn the engine off.

Without thinking, my husband sat down in the car without the key fob and was able to shift the car into neutral, which he shouldn't have been able to do. When he did that the car actually tried to start itself.


Holy fark.
 
2010-02-24 08:57:15 AM  
Fearing death, she called husband.

driving 100mph in an out of control vehicle she searches for her cell phone and calls her husband. i'm surprised none of the congressmen jumped on this.
 
2010-02-24 08:58:40 AM  
LOLIDRIVESTICKPAD

I always knew automatics were retarded, and this proves it. If it happened to me I'd try and hit the center wall maybe.
 
2010-02-24 09:01:24 AM  
Having heard her testimony a few times I think she's lying.
 
2010-02-24 09:03:11 AM  

doglover: I always knew automatics were retarded, and this proves it. If it happened to me I'd try and hit the center wall maybe.


What amuses me is the people who insist -- INSIST -- that the transmission selector is a direct, mechanical link to the transmission itself. I am no mechanic, but I am willing to bet that in most cars today -- especially relatively high-end cars like Lexus -- this is no longer the case. Everything is electronic; the selector is just an input device.
 
2010-02-24 09:04:37 AM  

floor9: I take off the cruise control, but the car continues to accelerate. To make a long story short, I put the car into all available gears including neutral, but then I put it in reverse and it remains in reverse as the car speeds to over 100 mph down the interstate.

After 6 miles God intervened as the car came very slowly to a stop. I pulled it to the left median. With the car stopped and both feet still on the brake, the motor still revved up and down. At 35 mph it would not shut off. Finally, at 33 mph, I was able to turn the engine off.

Without thinking, my husband sat down in the car without the key fob and was able to shift the car into neutral, which he shouldn't have been able to do. When he did that the car actually tried to start itself.

Holy fark.

%100 bullshiat.
 
2010-02-24 09:09:02 AM  

manimal2878: %100 bullshiat.


I don't know about that, man. There are too many complaints to be ignored.

I'm not a mechanic, so the inner workings of these systems is beyond my skill level. But if the throttle is indeed a "throttle by wire" system, and if the transmission is also electronic, then it's not hard to imagine a software failure.

Software-based safety systems that lack active physical backups (I'm not sure of the exact terminology, but the kind of physical safety mechanism where the computer has to constantly work to bypass said safety, and if the computer fails for any reason, the safety is suddenly "unsuppressed" and kicks in) are notoriously unreliable.

The Therac-25 comes to mind.
 
2010-02-24 09:09:41 AM  
This is a) why I like standards and b) why I don't like super complicated electronic control systems.

I want a cable that goes from the gas pedal to the injectors or carburetor and a shaft that goes to the master cylinder.

/has blown break lines while going 35mph
//yay riding quads with no breaks for teaching me something
/like not panicing
 
2010-02-24 09:14:15 AM  
Let's see - the government pours BILLIONS into the domestic auto industry then TA-DA - their major competition gets raked over the coals over recall issues.

Sorry, lady - I know the UAW is paying you a lot of money to testi-lie but I'm smellin' a conspiracy!
*adjusts tin foil hat*
 
2010-02-24 09:14:59 AM  
I have a 2006 Toyota Tacoma and have no fear about this happening.

Of course, my truck is a manual transmission. Neutral is REALLY neutral.
 
2010-02-24 09:20:34 AM  
After 6 miles God intervened as the car came very slowly to a stop.

I wasn't aware that God controlled the reset pin on embedded processors!

Does that feature come with the car?
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2010-02-24 09:20:59 AM  
floor9

"Mechanical interlock" might be the term you want. I worked on a product with FDA fry-your-eyes class laser beams inside. If you opened the door a switch in the latch turned off power.
 
2010-02-24 09:22:12 AM  

floor9: It seems like in every thread about Toyota / Lexus about almost anything, there's always a percentage of Internet Tough Guys (tm) who say "hurrr, I'd just put the car in neutral I've known that since I was three years old!. I don't understand why everyone is so stupid".


FTFY.
 
2010-02-24 09:23:58 AM  

7of7: Having heard her testimony a few times I think she's lying.


This. She's the only person i've heard of so far to say that neutral didn't work.
 
2010-02-24 09:25:47 AM  
farm1.static.flickr.com

approves
 
2010-02-24 09:27:42 AM  

ZAZ: "Mechanical interlock" might be the term you want.


Sounds right. I thought there was another term specifically to describe a system where safety system #1 was designed for the sole purpose of always stopping a process, regardless of conditions. Safety system #2 was designed to stop a process based on set criteria, and also to override safety system #1. In the event that safety system #2 failed, it would fail to stop safety system #1, which would in turn stop the process. Not unlike a dead man switch.

Petit_Merdeux: FTFY.


So true.
 
2010-02-24 09:28:35 AM  

benlonghair: I want a cable that goes from the gas pedal to the injectors or carburetor


The throttle cable in my 70's era Pontiac Ventura got jammed once. The butterfly valve was full open and it was not much fun getting the car to a stop.
 
2010-02-24 09:32:05 AM  

floor9: manimal2878: %100 bullshiat.

I don't know about that, man. There are too many complaints to be ignored.

I'm not a mechanic, so the inner workings of these systems is beyond my skill level. But if the throttle is indeed a "throttle by wire" system, and if the transmission is also electronic, then it's not hard to imagine a software failure.

Software-based safety systems that lack active physical backups (I'm not sure of the exact terminology, but the kind of physical safety mechanism where the computer has to constantly work to bypass said safety, and if the computer fails for any reason, the safety is suddenly "unsuppressed" and kicks in) are notoriously unreliable.

The Therac-25 comes to mind.


Not so much that it could be possible, but that she had time to call her husband, and the car wanted to start itself again and only by the grace of god did it stop six miles after her prayers.
 
2010-02-24 09:35:00 AM  
As the sysadmin for the contractor that runs NHTSA's call center I'm not getting a kick out of this. The call tsunami is out of hand and some of the callers are beyond panic.

Toyota screwed the pooch on this.
 
2010-02-24 09:37:09 AM  
Anything software controlled can have problems. Maybe they used the same programmers who wrote the flight control systems for the predator UAV (new window).

(from the link about the cause of a crash of a predator: A second procedural error of note occurred when the pilot accidentally activated a program that erased the internal random access memory on board the aircraft during a flight. That this was even possible to do during a flight is notable in itself and suggests the relatively ad hoc software development process occurring for these systems)
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2010-02-24 09:38:36 AM  
floor9

I've seen software dead man switches, e.g. a process that ran at intervals to set an "I'm alive" flag monitored by hardware. I'm a little wary of them because they don't nececssarily test the right failure condition.

The "I'm alive" flag was a hardware register on a system running VxWorks. As long as the heartbeat task ran the system wouldn't reset. That was no guarantee the system worked, only that a high priority task wasn't sucking up all the CPU.

A networked filesystem protocol checked for server dead by doing a null RPC. A common failure mode was a server thread locked up trying to handle a real request with another thread idle and ready to handle null requests. The system did not have any request timeouts on other calls because the null RPC polling method was supposed to do the job. Servers often failed worse than dead. They would say "I'm alive" without ever completing requests. Humans used to make a similar mistake, thinking that a server must be up because "ping" worked.
 
2010-02-24 09:39:44 AM  

manimal2878: Not so much that it could be possible, but that she had time to call her husband, and the car wanted to start itself again and only by the grace of god did it stop six miles after her prayers.


Oh, ok. That I buy. In that case, look for this to be blamed on Obama, "the liberals", and "the atheists" shortly after the midterms.
 
2010-02-24 09:49:02 AM  

HansensDisease: The throttle cable in my 70's era Pontiac Ventura got jammed once.


But you had mechanical connections to the brakes, e brake and transmission. As opposed to the possibility of software going into meltdown and nothing responding.

Although I suppose the brakes in a Lexus are probably mechanical with power assist.
 
2010-02-24 09:52:44 AM  

HansensDisease: After 6 miles God intervened as the car came very slowly to a stop.

I wasn't aware that God controlled the reset pin on embedded processors!

Does that feature come with the car?


God was a real dick for letting her ride 6 miles at 100 MPH before stopping her car.
 
2010-02-24 09:58:29 AM  

bongmiester: driving 100mph in an out of control vehicle she searches for her cell phone and calls her husband. i'm surprised none of the congressmen jumped on this.


manimal2878: Not so much that it could be possible, but that she had time to call her husband, and the car wanted to start itself again and only by the grace of god did it stop six miles after her prayers.


You know how I know you two didn't read the article?
 
2010-02-24 10:01:08 AM  

Jimmy Devil Rocket Science: bongmiester: driving 100mph in an out of control vehicle she searches for her cell phone and calls her husband. i'm surprised none of the congressmen jumped on this.

manimal2878: Not so much that it could be possible, but that she had time to call her husband, and the car wanted to start itself again and only by the grace of god did it stop six miles after her prayers.

You know how I know you two didn't read the article?


You know how I know your reading comprehension sucks?

Fearing death, she called husband. "I knew he could not help me, but I wanted to hear his voice one more time," she recalled. "After six miles later, God intervened," and the car began to slow on it own, though the engine continued to rev itself in cycles. When the vehicle had finally slowed to around 35 mph, she was able to stop the engine.
 
2010-02-24 10:06:02 AM  

benlonghair: HansensDisease: The throttle cable in my 70's era Pontiac Ventura got jammed once.

But you had mechanical connections to the brakes, e brake and transmission. As opposed to the possibility of software going into meltdown and nothing responding.

Although I suppose the brakes in a Lexus are probably mechanical with power assist.


A problem pointed out on a car board I'm on is that if the engine is at full throttle, if you pump the brakes once or twice, you will lose vacuum assist (and there won't be vacuum since you're at full throttle), so you'll lose the power assist, making it quite a bit harder to provide full braking force. You'll then basically toast your brakes without actually stopping the vehicle...


// Wonder what the transmission is supposed to do if you break off whatever stops you from going into reverse while you're driving forwards...
 
2010-02-24 10:08:16 AM  
I believe that something really bad happened to this lady's car. I believe that she believes the story she's telling. But I also believe that the combination of panic at the time, the attention she's gotten since then, and a potential payday in the future have significantly altered the story that she believes is true.
 
2010-02-24 10:09:22 AM  
Satan stopped the car...God wants Heaven packed with fresh souls.
 
2010-02-24 10:10:05 AM  

Eddie Adams from Torrance: God was a real dick for letting her ride 6 miles at 100 MPH before stopping her car.


You forget that it's all part of his plan. His ways are beyond your understanding.
 
2010-02-24 10:12:12 AM  
I know it's not the best option to take in the event of runaway acceleration, but before I took the time to fish my cell phone out of my pocket and make a call I would have turned the key in the ignition to the off position and shut the car down.
 
2010-02-24 10:15:12 AM  

floor9: It seems like in every thread about Toyota / Lexus, there's always a percentage of Internet Tough Guys (tm) who say "hurrr, I'd just put the car in neutral, I don't understand why everyone is so stupid".

So yeah, apparently that won't help.


I am naming the neighbor's Toyota "Carrie".
 
2010-02-24 10:16:16 AM  

Ingaba: I know it's not the best option to take in the event of runaway acceleration, but before I took the time to fish my cell phone out of my pocket and make a call I would have turned the key in the ignition to the off position and shut the car down.


If your car is ramping up in speed, wouldn't you need both hands on the wheel to steer around things and avoid obstacles? I find it incredibly unlikely she could have made a phone call and paid attention to the road enough to avoid wrecking.
 
2010-02-24 10:17:52 AM  
manimal2878
%100 bullshiat.

Especially that part about God her invisible sky wizard stopping the car.

/game on!
 
2010-02-24 10:21:07 AM  

I_C_Weener: floor9: It seems like in every thread about Toyota / Lexus, there's always a percentage of Internet Tough Guys (tm) who say "hurrr, I'd just put the car in neutral, I don't understand why everyone is so stupid".

So yeah, apparently that won't help.

I am naming the neighbor's Toyota "Carrie".


Wait. I meant "Christine". Carrie was the teenager with PMS problems. Christine was the haunted car.
 
2010-02-24 10:26:26 AM  
I gotta admit, I've been one of the "Just put it in neutral, asspipe!" guys since the very start, but as more and more evidence comes out making it apparently an electronic, not a mechanical, issue in these cases I definitely was wrong.

I still think it would be a better world if standards for getting a driver's license were tougher - especially requiring training for handling normal day-to-day emergencies that arise with a machine as incredibly complex as a car -- but when the computer running the engine tells the computer running the transmission to go fark itself and there's no physical link between anything I'm not sure what the best option would be.
 
2010-02-24 10:33:28 AM  
That's not really how cars work. For one, the parking/emergency brake is not electronic: It is a galvanized cable connected to the rear brakes.

I have a hard time envisioning an entirely electronic transmission selector, too.

But the ignition? Really? I suppose there might be some level of plausibility as it could be a keyless fob-start system. But in that case, why not just toss the fob out of the window? Also, don't all cars like that have a kill switch?

There's very little about this story that rings to me with the aura of truth. Especially when she talks about whipping out her cell phone while scorching pavement at 100mph in a runaway car and chatting with her husband. Because, really, if that were the case? She probably did deserve to wreck the car into an immovable object off the road, as she's obviously demonstrating reckless disregard for other people anyway.

i49.tinypic.com
 
2010-02-24 10:36:47 AM  

TwistedIvory: That's not really how cars work. For one, the parking/emergency brake is not electronic: It is a galvanized cable connected to the rear brakes.

I have a hard time envisioning an entirely electronic transmission selector, too.

But the ignition? Really? I suppose there might be some level of plausibility as it could be a keyless fob-start system. But in that case, why not just toss the fob out of the window? Also, don't all cars like that have a kill switch?

There's very little about this story that rings to me with the aura of truth. Especially when she talks about whipping out her cell phone while scorching pavement at 100mph in a runaway car and chatting with her husband. Because, really, if that were the case? She probably did deserve to wreck the car into an immovable object off the road, as she's obviously demonstrating reckless disregard for other people anyway.


But a cop died while driving his wife's car, so its all true. All of it. Even the part where the Japanese installed ninja jumps out of the glovebox to surprise the driver at the perfect moment. Its really Japan's revenge for WWII.

How do I know about the ninjas? Well, its simple really. Japan must have midgets yet you never see them. I posit that all their midgets have been trained as ninjas and have been hiding in Toyota glove boxes for years only now making their move to strike at the soccer moms. Think about it.
 
2010-02-24 10:44:18 AM  
too much electronic crap on cars to go wrong. keep it simple stupid
 
2010-02-24 10:53:31 AM  

TwistedIvory: That's not really how cars work. For one, the parking/emergency brake is not electronic: It is a galvanized cable connected to the rear brakes.

I have a hard time envisioning an entirely electronic transmission selector, too.

But the ignition? Really? I suppose there might be some level of plausibility as it could be a keyless fob-start system. But in that case, why not just toss the fob out of the window? Also, don't all cars like that have a kill switch?

There's very little about this story that rings to me with the aura of truth. Especially when she talks about whipping out her cell phone while scorching pavement at 100mph in a runaway car and chatting with her husband. Because, really, if that were the case? She probably did deserve to wreck the car into an immovable object off the road, as she's obviously demonstrating reckless disregard for other people anyway.


I'm not sure about the Lexus ES, but there's no hand brake near the gear selector. My wife's new VW tiguan has an electronic switch for the (electrically activated) parking brake. Also, if you have toasted your brake pads completely, even a parking brake won't stop you.

I believe a lot of the key-fob cars require you to hold down the start button for 3-5 seconds to turn the car off...
 
2010-02-24 11:08:59 AM  

floor9: I thought there was another term specifically to describe a system where safety system #1


The term is "failsafe" or "ESD"(emergency shutdown).

And yeah, this story sounds like a load of bull to me. Even the newer cars have to have a direct connection to the transmission from the gear shift, if they didn't you couldn't move the car with a dead battery by shifting it into neutral and pushing.

What she MIGHT have done is rake the gearshift back and forth hoping for something to happen and not letting it settle into any gear.
 
2010-02-24 11:10:03 AM  

TwistedIvory: Especially when she talks about whipping out her cell phone while scorching pavement at 100mph in a runaway car and chatting with her husband.


That's not what happened. According to TFA, she used her handsfree Bluetooth system. For all we know she had to press one button to dial. Maybe it was even voice-response. Some systems respond well to stressed, screaming voices, others do not.
 
2010-02-24 11:10:41 AM  

TwistedIvory: as it could be a keyless fob-start system. But in that case, why not just toss the fob out of the window?


That won't work. On my prius, if the car is already started and the fob goes away, the car still works until you put it in park and turn it off. (I've done that. My wife had the key and I dropped her off at the front of the store and went to park the car. I realized then that I couldn't lock the door with the push button on the outside of the car because I didn't have the key.
 
2010-02-24 11:12:49 AM  
At any rate, this is why I drove a Honda Fit with a 5-speed manual transmission. Even with power brakes and power steering, my car is relatively easy to handle if something like this happened. Since my transmission *is* a direct mechanical link (and for that matter, so is my clutch pedal), I have several options to disconnect a runaway engine from the wheels.

And frankly, if my 42-mpg engine floored itself in 5th gear, I wouldn't notice for a few miles anyway. :(
 
2010-02-24 11:16:30 AM  
FTA: "After six miles later, God intervened," and the car began to slow on it own, though the engine continued to rev itself in cycles."

Why does God get all the credit for stopping the car, but none of the blame for starting it in the first place?

Did God want her to buy a new car/underwear?

How does she know this wasn't some kind of bet between God and Jesus?

Jesus: Hey dad, let's make this woman's car go 180kph, I've got $10 that says she still uses her cell phone.

God: You're on.
 
2010-02-24 11:29:12 AM  
TheBitterest: Why does God get all the credit for stopping the car, but none of the blame for starting it in the first place?

Because if people did that, they'd think it through and stop believing in God. I always have to stop myself from strangling someone when they say something like that.

That being said, this is the kind of story that freaks me the fark out. When I was like 5, we had the starter, I think, die on one of our cars. Die after we got it, ironically, to an auto shop where we were taking the second car in need of work. My mother turned the key, got out of the car, and then realized the car was still on. Freaked me the fark out and since then I've always been really freaked out by stuff like this.

/cool story, bro
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2010-02-24 11:30:15 AM  
floor9

Are you sure your clutch is a direct mechanical link? My last two cars have had a master-slave cylinder pair that malfunctioned leaving the clutch engaged full time.
 
2010-02-24 11:37:51 AM  

floor9: It seems like in every thread about Toyota / Lexus, there's always a percentage of Internet Tough Guys (tm) who say "hurrr, I'd just put the car in neutral, I don't understand why everyone is so stupid".

So yeah, apparently that won't help.


I did post something to this effect early on before someone pointed out that the switch to Neutral was not a fully manual procedure.
 
2010-02-24 11:38:13 AM  

TheBitterest: FTA: "After six miles later, God intervened," and the car began to slow on it own, though the engine continued to rev itself in cycles."

Why does God get all the credit for stopping the car, but none of the blame for starting it in the first place?


that was teh devil's work
 
2010-02-24 11:38:39 AM  

ZAZ: Are you sure your clutch is a direct mechanical link?


No. But I like the illusion in case my primary defense of "popping it out of gear" fails.
 
2010-02-24 11:39:35 AM  

floor9: doglover: I always knew automatics were retarded, and this proves it. If it happened to me I'd try and hit the center wall maybe.

What amuses me is the people who insist -- INSIST -- that the transmission selector is a direct, mechanical link to the transmission itself. I am no mechanic, but I am willing to bet that in most cars today -- especially relatively high-end cars like Lexus -- this is no longer the case. Everything is electronic; the selector is just an input device.


I'm pretty sure it is manual on my 2001 Grand Prix. Not so sure about my 2006 Honday Odessey. There should be a list on the intertubes somewhere.
 
2010-02-24 11:47:02 AM  

aimtastic: I believe that something really bad happened to this lady's car. I believe that she believes the story she's telling. But I also believe that the combination of panic at the time, the attention she's gotten since then, and a potential payday in the future have significantly altered the story that she believes is true.


Memory is a very fluid thing. You can fail to remember one thing properly. Vaguely think you remember it and then reinforce it through repetition that the memory becomes so strong you are positive. It is not a deliberate process. She could be quite honestly be misremembering this. In my experience, and please no one kill me for saying this, this is slightly more common with women.

Now having said that, I haven't heard her testimony and it could very well be completely true. I'm going to listen to it now.
 
2010-02-24 11:57:08 AM  
If any of this is remotely true, that TWO components of the car could simultaneously fail, the car manufacturer known as Toyota should cease to exist.

While it is impossible to design a throttle system that could never fail, things stick, sensors error. It should be nearly impossible for that to fail at the same time as the brake sensors, which should kill any >5%-10% throttle when >5%-10% braking is applied. And in the 'that should never happen, but hey, people win the lottery even though it is 100 million to one' event that that does happen, the ability to put the car in neutral should not fail.

I am inclined to believe this women isn't 100% honest, and that the above scenario is in fact impossible, because you have to be one incompetent engineer to design a system where the throttle, brakes and shifting don't fail-safe.
 
2010-02-24 11:57:22 AM  

benlonghair: But you had mechanical connections to the brakes, e brake and transmission. As opposed to the possibility of software going into meltdown and nothing responding.

Although I suppose the brakes in a Lexus are probably mechanical with power assist.


I practically had to stand on the brakes though. Meanwhile, steering onto the breakdown lane as not to be eaten by trucks. I got it into neutral, opened the hood, yanked on the cable and drove home.

Cellphone lady probably panicked and didn't/couldn't hammer the brake pedal down. She probably couldn't get it to shift and the processor didn't reset for a minute. She did say she traveled 6 miles, so the timing is about right.
 
2010-02-24 11:57:39 AM  

mrshowrules: aimtastic: I believe that something really bad happened to this lady's car. I believe that she believes the story she's telling. But I also believe that the combination of panic at the time, the attention she's gotten since then, and a potential payday in the future have significantly altered the story that she believes is true.

Memory is a very fluid thing. You can fail to remember one thing properly. Vaguely think you remember it and then reinforce it through repetition that the memory becomes so strong you are positive. It is not a deliberate process. She could be quite honestly be misremembering this. In my experience, and please no one kill me for saying this, this is slightly more common with women.

Now having said that, I haven't heard her testimony and it could very well be completely true. I'm going to listen to it now.


Just watched the video and I completely believe her.
 
2010-02-24 12:00:01 PM  

impaler: If any of this is remotely true, that TWO components of the car could simultaneously fail, the car manufacturer known as Toyota should cease to exist.

While it is impossible to design a throttle system that could never fail, things stick, sensors error. It should be nearly impossible for that to fail at the same time as the brake sensors, which should kill any >5%-10% throttle when >5%-10% braking is applied. And in the 'that should never happen, but hey, people win the lottery even though it is 100 million to one' event that that does happen, the ability to put the car in neutral should not fail.

I am inclined to believe this women isn't 100% honest, and that the above scenario is in fact impossible, because you have to be one incompetent engineer to design a system where the throttle, brakes and shifting don't fail-safe.


But if Toyota isn't immediately releasing a statement to that effect, you have to wonder.
 
2010-02-24 12:02:43 PM  

Ingaba: I know it's not the best option to take in the event of runaway acceleration, but before I took the time to fish my cell phone out of my pocket and make a call I would have turned the key in the ignition to the off position and shut the car down.


In my car, a 2006 bmw, there is no key to turn. you put it into a slot and press a button. much like to make a phone call, you press a button on the steering wheel. I'm willing to bet the lexus is probably comprable to my car.
 
2010-02-24 12:13:31 PM  

mrshowrules: impaler: If any of this is remotely true, that TWO components of the car could simultaneously fail, the car manufacturer known as Toyota should cease to exist.

While it is impossible to design a throttle system that could never fail, things stick, sensors error. It should be nearly impossible for that to fail at the same time as the brake sensors, which should kill any >5%-10% throttle when >5%-10% braking is applied. And in the 'that should never happen, but hey, people win the lottery even though it is 100 million to one' event that that does happen, the ability to put the car in neutral should not fail.

I am inclined to believe this women isn't 100% honest, and that the above scenario is in fact impossible, because you have to be one incompetent engineer to design a system where the throttle, brakes and shifting don't fail-safe.

But if Toyota isn't immediately releasing a statement to that effect, you have to wonder.


If Toyota hasn't raped and murdered a girl in 1990 wasn't born in the US hasn't done anything wrong, why won't they come out and say it? Their silence is damning!

Bad logic is bad.

I don't think Toyota is telling the whole truth simply because of the stories like this from both men and women where it is obvious it is not a matter of a pedal stuck on a floor matt. But I don't think it is intentional or malicious. The systems were probably designed to fail-safe, but programs glitch and things can go wrong. I think Toyota isn't saying anything because they want to preserve plausible deniability. Even if they think she's nuts and want to shove it in her face exactly how they design it to be fail-safe, it is in their better legal interest to remain silent.
 
2010-02-24 12:16:17 PM  

hb0mb: In my car, a 2006 bmw, there is no key to turn. you put it into a slot and press a button. much like to make a phone call, you press a button on the steering wheel. I'm willing to bet the lexus is probably comprable to my car.


According to Toyota, if you press the start button and hold it for 2-5 seconds the car will turn off.
 
2010-02-24 12:24:04 PM  
Which is why I'll always drive a manual.
 
2010-02-24 12:25:46 PM  

floor9: It seems like in every thread about Toyota / Lexus, there's always a percentage of Internet Tough Guys (tm) who say "hurrr, I'd just put the car in neutral, I don't understand why everyone is so stupid".


I've had a car with a sticky accellerator, nuetral did work. Hoever, I have no idea what I would do if that didn't work, and neither did using the brakes or turning the car off.
 
2010-02-24 12:25:52 PM  

Ingaba: hb0mb: In my car, a 2006 bmw, there is no key to turn. you put it into a slot and press a button. much like to make a phone call, you press a button on the steering wheel. I'm willing to bet the lexus is probably comprable to my car.

According to Toyota, if you press the start button and hold it for 2-5 seconds the car will turn off.


I have to go to the "start" menu in order to shut this thing down? Who designed this monstrosity!?
 
2010-02-24 12:26:26 PM  

Eddie Adams from Torrance: HansensDisease: After 6 miles God intervened as the car came very slowly to a stop.

I wasn't aware that God controlled the reset pin on embedded processors!

Does that feature come with the car?

God was a real dick for letting her ride 6 miles at 100 MPH before stopping her car.


hiscrivener.files.wordpress.com

So, does Toyota adjust for different deities/agnostic/atheist?

/hot like Carrie Underwood
 
2010-02-24 12:26:50 PM  

aimtastic: I believe that something really bad happened to this lady's car. I believe that she believes the story she's telling. But I also believe that the combination of panic at the time, the attention she's gotten since then, and a potential payday in the future have significantly altered the story that she believes is true.


THIS
 
2010-02-24 12:26:51 PM  
I don't believe her.
 
2010-02-24 12:27:09 PM  
floor9 2010-02-24 08:53:43 AM

It seems like in every thread about Toyota / Lexus, there's always a percentage of Internet Tough Guys (tm) who say "hurrr, I'd just put the car in neutral, I don't understand why everyone is so stupid".

So yeah, apparently that won't help
.

Luckily, there's always an Internet Smart Guy to correct people!

Yeah. So apparently you believe this story.
C'mon. She's a woman, she can't drive, and concocts this BS story to avoid the embarrasment of her own incompetence.
 
2010-02-24 12:27:13 PM  

impaler: I have to go to the "start" menu in order to shut this thing down? Who designed this monstrosity!?


It's the same as in your car? To start the car, and to shut it down, you use the same key in the same lock, no?
 
2010-02-24 12:28:03 PM  
"After six miles later, God intervened,"

God is omnipotent, but sometimes he's just busy. He'll get to you when he has the time.
 
2010-02-24 12:28:32 PM  
To those railing on her for calling her husband, you should probably watch the video of her testimony. She used the built in bluetooth in the lexus, which is voice activated. Wouldn't be my first choice of actions, but hey, everyone's different.

Anyway, the thing that really bothers me about the entire toyota ordeal is, it's multiple things causing the issue. That it happened in the first place(unintended acceleration)is unacceptable, that it has MULTIPLE causes(yes, the pedal is a cause, the force feedback part of the drive by wire pedal can wear and stick)is downright negligent.

And yes, for the record, many new cars, particularly luxury cars and hybrids, have electronically controlled transmission as well. Sometimes throwing it in N just does nothing, and the fact that the car lurched forward when her husband tried to move it doesn't seem impossible to me.


/a mechanic(though not in a few years, medical stuff)
//have some friends who work for toyota/lexus
///they're very busy these days, and some are changing jobs
////they have good personal reputations, and no longer wish to be associated with the company
 
2010-02-24 12:28:38 PM  

Kar98: impaler: I have to go to the "start" menu in order to shut this thing down? Who designed this monstrosity!?

It's the same as in your car? To start the car, and to shut it down, you use the same key in the same lock, no?


Look at the lower left hand corner of your computer screen. It's an old joke.
 
2010-02-24 12:29:26 PM  

TwistedIvory: For one, the parking/emergency brake is not electronic: It is a galvanized cable connected to the rear brakes.


Sure, but what motorist hasn't accidentally started driving with the hand brake still engaged? Mitch Hedberg wasn't wrong when he called it "an emergency make-the-car-smell-funny lever."
 
2010-02-24 12:29:44 PM  

benlonghair: This is a) why I like standards and b) why I don't like super complicated electronic control systems.

I want a cable that goes from the gas pedal to the injectors or carburetor and a shaft that goes to the master cylinder.

/has blown break lines while going 35mph
//yay riding quads with no breaks for teaching me something
/like not panicing


stephen king could write a book about this. it's as though toyota is trying to kill us or something. i love my ranger but damn, that won't keep me safe from the toyotas on the road.
 
2010-02-24 12:30:11 PM  
img1.fark.net Old lady does not know how to drive her car
 
2010-02-24 12:30:21 PM  
Starting to think manuals are still the way to go... I almost switched to the dark side but now, fark that.
 
2010-02-24 12:30:30 PM  

6 MILES OF TERROR

 
2010-02-24 12:30:44 PM  

TwistedIvory: That's not really how cars work.


TI, it's not Christine, but this:

i46.tinypic.com

/didn't not know Dr. King directed that turd himself
 
2010-02-24 12:31:02 PM  
www.cinemovies.fr

/unamused
 
2010-02-24 12:31:29 PM  
Incident happened in 2006? I wonder when...our AllData system doesn't show the ES350 model was available until the '07 model year.

i911.photobucket.com
 
Ant
2010-02-24 12:31:29 PM  

doglover: LOLIDRIVESTICKPAD

I always knew automatics were retarded, and this proves it. If it happened to me I'd try and hit the center wall maybe.


Yep. Manual transmission FTW!
 
2010-02-24 12:32:23 PM  
If this happened to me, I'd just crawl out the sunroof and use my peener as a lasso to rope a streetlight and swing to safety. Then I'd use my lasso-weenie again to rescue all of the cute female drivers that were at least 18. Then I'd take them all out on my yacht. Then I'd have lunch. Then I'd have sex with all of the 18+ year old rescued females with my long Madonna-arm-like schlong.
 
2010-02-24 12:32:27 PM  
I'd just like to say that the 1983 movie "Christine" sucked out loud. Especially if you've read the book.
 
2010-02-24 12:32:44 PM  
Does Fred Flintstone's car have this problem?
 
2010-02-24 12:32:45 PM  

floor9: INSIST -- that the transmission selector is a direct, mechanical link to the transmission itself. I am no mechanic, but I am willing to bet that in most cars today -- especially relatively high-end cars like Lexus -- this is no longer the case. Everything is electronic; the selector is just an input device.


/Drives a checy s-10.
it has direct linkage.
5 speed.
clutch.
//neighbor has a Lexus.
I fear riding with her.
///she loves to yak on the cell phone while driving, too.
 
2010-02-24 12:33:19 PM  
She's so paniced that she calls her husband to say goodbye forever and yet can remember to the mph when her car started to function normally.

Hmmm...
 
2010-02-24 12:33:40 PM  
Must have been the Kyle Busch edition.
 
2010-02-24 12:34:04 PM  

Eddie Adams from Torrance: HansensDisease: After 6 miles God intervened as the car came very slowly to a stop.

I wasn't aware that God controlled the reset pin on embedded processors!

Does that feature come with the car?

God was a real dick for letting her ride 6 miles at 100 MPH before stopping her car.



Maybe that's what is meant when someone wishes you "God's speed"
 
2010-02-24 12:34:06 PM  
So the car drives when you put it in neutral. Did the labels next to stick move ?
 
2010-02-24 12:34:49 PM  
For the record - Consumerist trolls are far inferior to Fark trolls
 
2010-02-24 12:35:21 PM  

medius: TwistedIvory: That's not really how cars work.

TI, it's not Christine, but this:

/didn't not know Dr. King directed that turd himself


I was thinking more of Dennis Weaver in Duel, back in 1971.
 
2010-02-24 12:35:28 PM  

ihatedumbpeople: Incident happened in 2006? I wonder when...our AllData system doesn't show the ES350 model was available until the '07 model year.


Most cars from [model year X] are available for sale in the late August/early September of [calendar year X-1].
 
2010-02-24 12:35:44 PM  

Coming on a Bicycle: So the car drives when you put it in neutral. Did the labels next to stick move ?


The premise is that the transmission is fly by wire and unresponsive to her attempts to change gears.
 
2010-02-24 12:35:48 PM  

floor9: It seems like in every thread about Toyota / Lexus, there's always a percentage of Internet Tough Guys (tm) who say "hurrr, I'd just put the car in neutral, I don't understand why everyone is so stupid".

So yeah, apparently that won't help.


I drive a stick shift. I guarantee it'll work.
 
2010-02-24 12:35:51 PM  

ihatedumbpeople: Incident happened in 2006? I wonder when...our AllData system doesn't show the ES350 model was available until the '07 model year.


Which hit the market in '06. Like most models do.(ie: new model years come out in the numerical year before. 07 cars come out in 06, '11 cars come out in '10)
 
2010-02-24 12:35:59 PM  

GAT_00: Because if people did that, they'd think it through and stop believing in God. I always have to stop myself from strangling someone when they say something like that.


Her car was hurtling down the highway and nothing that she could do could bring it under control. Then, randomly the car slowed down despite continued signs that the thing was f*cked up. Believe it or not, people reacting to unexplained events that without hours and hours of scientific thought aren't doing it just to piss off thin-skinned douche bags on the internet.

Lady: "Thank God I'm not dead."
ITA: "F*CK YOU YOU STUPID C*NT GOD HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT WHY DON'T YOU PUT MORE THOUGHT INTO IT YOU FAT COW!!!"

Get a grip on yourselves.
 
2010-02-24 12:36:06 PM  

manimal2878: Jimmy Devil Rocket Science: bongmiester: driving 100mph in an out of control vehicle she searches for her cell phone and calls her husband. i'm surprised none of the congressmen jumped on this.

manimal2878: Not so much that it could be possible, but that she had time to call her husband, and the car wanted to start itself again and only by the grace of god did it stop six miles after her prayers.

You know how I know you two didn't read the article?

You know how I know your reading comprehension sucks?

Fearing death, she called husband. "I knew he could not help me, but I wanted to hear his voice one more time," she recalled. "After six miles later, God intervened," and the car began to slow on it own, though the engine continued to rev itself in cycles. When the vehicle had finally slowed to around 35 mph, she was able to stop the engine.


You know how I know your reading comprehension sucks?

FTFA: I called my husband on the blue tooth phone system.
 
2010-02-24 12:36:41 PM  

mantabulous: Eddie Adams from Torrance: God was a real dick for letting her ride 6 miles at 100 MPH before stopping her car.

You forget that it's all part of his plan. His ways are beyond your understanding.


Really. At that speed, she covered the distance in under 4 minutes. Between the Earth-Heaven Dial-Up Time-Delay (she used her cell phone) and standard customer request queues, I'd say she got pretty good service. It's not like she had a T3 direct connection and a dedicated Prayer Server.

FTA: I figure the car is going to go its maximum speed and I was going to have to put the car into the upcoming guard rail in order to prevent killing anyone else

That made me think she'd already taken out someone on the road.
 
2010-02-24 12:36:44 PM  
The farking Prius work car gives me fits all the time. Sometimes it's slapstick comedy trying to get the damn thing into drive or park. It seems to get easily "confused". It isn't even part of the recall (2007), but if this womans Lexus was anything like this Prius, I believe her.
 
2010-02-24 12:37:36 PM  
Back in the 1980s there was a massive panic over Audis that exhibited "Sudden Acceleration Syndrome". Thousands of compliants, lawsuits, and a huge hit piece on Sixty Minutes with stories of cars driving themselves into swimming pools, through garage doors, and so forth.

So the DOT did a massive study on "Sudden Acceleration Syndrome", only to conlude that the most likely cause of "Sudden Acceleration Syndrome is "pedal misapplication".
 
2010-02-24 12:37:46 PM  

voodoowizard: Starting to think manuals are still the way to go... I almost switched to the dark side modern age but now, fark that.


FIFY
 
2010-02-24 12:37:54 PM  
Now we know what happened to her:

www.freewebs.com
 
2010-02-24 12:37:57 PM  
When he did that the car actually tried to start itself.
Must be the new Toyota Satan.
 
2010-02-24 12:38:11 PM  

BlackCat23: ihatedumbpeople: Incident happened in 2006? I wonder when...our AllData system doesn't show the ES350 model was available until the '07 model year.

Which hit the market in '06. Like most models do.(ie: new model years come out in the numerical year before. 07 cars come out in 06, '11 cars come out in '10)


I'm aware of that...just pointing out how small the window had to be for this to happen...if the '07 model was the first ES350 and this happened in 06, that car had to have been damn near brand new...makes you wonder if this was a buggy software glitch or if she's full of crap...
 
2010-02-24 12:38:14 PM  

ihatedumbpeople: Incident happened in 2006? I wonder when...our AllData system doesn't show the ES350 model was available until the '07 model year.


Doesn't model year xxxx always come out in year xxxx-1?
 
2010-02-24 12:38:18 PM  

ihatedumbpeople: Incident happened in 2006? I wonder when...our AllData system doesn't show the ES350 model was available until the '07 model year.


It was new IIRC, and the '07 model year is 'new' in '06
 
2010-02-24 12:38:18 PM  

aimtastic: I believe that something really bad happened to this lady's car. I believe that she believes the story she's telling. But I also believe that the combination of panic at the time, the attention she's gotten since then, and a potential payday in the future have significantly altered the story that she believes is true.


THIS

I know how my own perception of an event can be altered depending upon the circumstances, and I know how stories tend to be a bit more dramatic than reality when an event is particularly unexpected, jarring, or emotional/stressful. I hear this quite a bit with people who were in severe downbursts or weak tornadoes (both events can be stressful and rare for the person to experience, and the stories tend to be a bit exaggerated relative to reality), though that's not to say that the people are lying. Indeed, I'm sure they think they are correct, and they don't have malicious intent; instead, their perception of reality was modified by stress and their emotional state at the time of the event.
 
2010-02-24 12:38:32 PM  
Emotional appeals should be forbidden in Congressional testimonies. Bring us the facts, not your "omfg, God stopped my car, I was terrified."

What is probably a very real problem is being taken advantage of by people who have no business on the road and no concept of personal responsibility. The plural of anecdote is not data, unless you are presenting these anecdotes to Congress.
 
2010-02-24 12:39:11 PM  
Is this the thread where I get to brag about my manual transmission F-150 from 1997 and how much more awesome it is than them thar fancy luxury cars with their electronic controls?

Because mechanical stuff never fails, ever.
 
2010-02-24 12:39:34 PM  
I would have swerved it into some panhandlers or Courtney Love.
 
2010-02-24 12:39:36 PM  
Why is it always old people who claimed to have done everything technically available to stop the car but they still cannot program a vcr? I call panicky shenanigans/selective recall/insurance dodge

/wotsavcr
 
2010-02-24 12:39:36 PM  
For those above who don't believe a car can have a fly-by-wire transmission, one of my neighbor's tractors has one. Working in the fields last summer, tractor just stopped. Would reverse but wouldn't go forward. Electro-hydraulic actuation is not needed in farm equipment transmissions.

K. I. S. S.
 
2010-02-24 12:40:47 PM  

TheBitterest: Why does God get all the credit for stopping the car, but none of the blame for starting it in the first place?

pages.suddenlink.net
 
2010-02-24 12:41:06 PM  
Pssh, n00b. Ctrl+Alt+Delete always works.
 
2010-02-24 12:41:08 PM  
That why I drive this.. 4 speed, CLUTCH, and Battery Shut OFFSwitch in Floor!
i585.photobucket.com//">
 
2010-02-24 12:41:41 PM  
With the car stopped and both feet still on the brake, the motor still revved up and down. At 35 mph it would not shut off. Finally, at 33 mph, I was able to turn the engine off.

if the car was "stopped", how was it going 35 mph?
 
2010-02-24 12:41:47 PM  

manimal2878: Ingaba: I know it's not the best option to take in the event of runaway acceleration, but before I took the time to fish my cell phone out of my pocket and make a call I would have turned the key in the ignition to the off position and shut the car down.

If your car is ramping up in speed, wouldn't you need both hands on the wheel to steer around things and avoid obstacles? I find it incredibly unlikely she could have made a phone call and paid attention to the road enough to avoid wrecking.


She was driving a Lexus ES350. It has Bluetooth.

Calling her husband didn't involve digging a cell phone out or hammering buttons, it was as simple as holding in a button on the radio and saying, "Call John" (or whatever his name is).
 
2010-02-24 12:41:48 PM  

BlackCat23: that it has MULTIPLE causes(yes, the pedal is a cause, the force feedback part of the drive by wire pedal can wear and stick)is downright negligent.


Which is why I'm guessing the whole controversy is a load of media overreaction and congressional hand wringing to appear competent spurned on by greedy lawyers and people like this lady who are all too ready to claim something happened so they can get on the class action and media appearance gravy train.
 
2010-02-24 12:41:51 PM  

factoryconnection: Her car was hurtling down the highway and nothing that she could do could bring it under control. Then, randomly the car slowed down despite continued signs that the thing was f*cked up. Believe it or not, people reacting to unexplained events that without hours and hours of scientific thought aren't doing it just to piss off thin-skinned douche bags on the internet.

Lady: "Thank God I'm not dead."
ITA: "F*CK YOU YOU STUPID C*NT GOD HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT WHY DON'T YOU PUT MORE THOUGHT INTO IT YOU FAT COW!!!"

Get a grip on yourselves.


Actually no one is griping on her saying "thank god!" They are commenting on the fact that she attributes god to slowing the car. The point being it doesn't take hours of scientific thought to reason "if god gets credit for stopping it, why not starting it?"
 
2010-02-24 12:42:13 PM  

AfterTheGoldRush: Back in the 1980s there was a massive panic over Audis that exhibited "Sudden Acceleration Syndrome". Thousands of compliants, lawsuits, and a huge hit piece on Sixty Minutes with stories of cars driving themselves into swimming pools, through garage doors, and so forth.

So the DOT did a massive study on "Sudden Acceleration Syndrome", only to conlude that the most likely cause of "Sudden Acceleration Syndrome is "pedal misapplication".


Yeah...way too many people, especially old people, seem to forget the ol' "brake left, gas right" thing. How many stories have been on fark about idiots plowing through Farmer's Markets or stores because they confused their gas and brake pedals.

I'm sure most of these are legit, but I'm guessing there's at least a few idiots not paying attention.
 
2010-02-24 12:42:32 PM  
The accelerator issues sound like electrical / computer problems based on the testimonies I've read so far. That said, here's my Cool Story Bro ®...

Last fall I had reason to travel to So. Cal for a conference. The hotel we were staying at had valet only parking, which was free to hybrid drivers.

When I rented a car, a Prius was only $15 more a day (valet would have been $25 / day)... I decided to rent the Prius and not pay for parking.

That car was a nightmare. Numerous times I'd think I was in gear, only to be in neutral. Or, I'd think I was in park, and lift my foot off the brake, only to lurch forward. For those of you who haven't driven one or ridden in one, for reasons only explicable to Toyota, they have a completely non-standard shift / drive selection mechanism. (I should add, I drive a Civic Hybrid as my regular commuter car... good mileage, drives pretty much the same as a regular civic. Same keys, same gear selection, same pull lever parking brake, etc)

i35.photobucket.com

Look at the picture above. There is an on/off button. A parking brake button. A shifter / drive selector that puts the car in drive, neutral, reverse, and in an "eco mode". This may all make immediate sense to Prius owners, but for most of us I'd say it is confusing. Some of the stories I've read had to do with rental / loaner cars, so I'd have to imagine this confusion has played in somewhat.

So... people who don't know to hold down the power button are farked. If the car won't shift out of drive you're farked. An electronic parking brake button isn't going to do shiat. Nothing in that car isn't electronicly controlled (transmission, acceleration, braking, etc)... almost nothing someone can do if the electronics are going bad, and if the start/stop button won't actually turn off the car (big question), what else can you do?

I'd predict this is going to end up being the largest product liability situation since the tobacco settlements... the loss of sales Toyota / Lexus is likely suffering right now must be devastating. They've got a serious farking problem, and I don't see how they are going to get out of it anytime soon.
 
2010-02-24 12:42:41 PM  

oldfarthenry: Let's see - the government pours BILLIONS into the domestic auto industry then TA-DA - their major competition gets raked over the coals over recall issues.

Sorry, lady - I know the UAW is paying you a lot of money to testi-lie but I'm smellin' a conspiracy!
*adjusts tin foil hat*


Considering there are NOT similar problems with other foreign car companies such as Hyundai, Honda, Subaru, BMW, Nissan, Mercedes (and I can continue on). I see a lot of holes in your theory.
 
2010-02-24 12:42:46 PM  

Eddie Adams from Torrance: God was a real dick for letting her ride 6 miles at 100 MPH before stopping her car.


No, it'll turn out to be one of those inspirational, "Footprints" kind of things.

"...Lord, you said that once I decided to follow you you'd drive with me all the way. But I noticed there is only one set of skid marks down the whole six miles of freeway. I don't understand why when I needed you most you would leave me.

The Lord replied, 'My precious child, I love you and I would never leave you. During your times of trial and suffering, when you see only one set of skid marks, that's when I was calling you over the OnStar system to tell you you mixed up the brake and gas pedals, but the phone was busy because you were yakking with your husband. Stupid biatch.'"
 
2010-02-24 12:43:02 PM  
One retard claiming she had both feet on the brakes and still couldn't stop the car does NOT make it true. Unless the Toyota has brake by wire, the brake pedal should win.
 
2010-02-24 12:43:09 PM  
This is not a Toyota problem. It is indeed, the work of Skynet. Once it cycles through all the Japanese car brands, then it will hit the American car brands. Mark my words.
 
Ant
2010-02-24 12:43:48 PM  

manimal2878: Ingaba: I know it's not the best option to take in the event of runaway acceleration, but before I took the time to fish my cell phone out of my pocket and make a call I would have turned the key in the ignition to the off position and shut the car down.

If your car is ramping up in speed, wouldn't you need both hands on the wheel to steer around things and avoid obstacles? I find it incredibly unlikely she could have made a phone call and paid attention to the road enough to avoid wrecking.


Voice dial on bluetooth headset. Try it.
 
2010-02-24 12:44:20 PM  

impaler: Ingaba: hb0mb: In my car, a 2006 bmw, there is no key to turn. you put it into a slot and press a button. much like to make a phone call, you press a button on the steering wheel. I'm willing to bet the lexus is probably comprable to my car.

According to Toyota, if you press the start button and hold it for 2-5 seconds the car will turn off.

I have to go to the "start" menu in order to shut this thing down? Who designed this monstrosity!?


Its not the automakers fault if you don't know how to stop your own damn vehicle.

/Its as simple as shifting up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, brakes, accelerator, brakes, accelerator, start!
/Or crawl out on the hood and disconnect the battery cable.
 
2010-02-24 12:44:22 PM  

Dead for Tax Reasons: TheBitterest: FTA: "After six miles later, God intervened," and the car began to slow on it own, though the engine continued to rev itself in cycles."

Why does God get all the credit for stopping the car, but none of the blame for starting it in the first place?

that was teh devil's work


God told me the expression on her face was priceless.

/and by God I mean Phil the schizophrenic homeless guy.
 
2010-02-24 12:44:50 PM  
"I called my husband on the blue tooth phone system. "

No one talks like that. She was coached to say that, period. Sorry folks, but that's one of those points that a lawyer is hired to not gloss over. Had she just said she called her husband, an argument can be made for phone use being irresponsible and yadda yadda.

That was intentional and probably unlikely.
 
2010-02-24 12:45:02 PM  

PlusCestLaMeme: ihatedumbpeople: Incident happened in 2006? I wonder when...our AllData system doesn't show the ES350 model was available until the '07 model year.

Doesn't model year xxxx always come out in year xxxx-1?


Yea 2010's started appearing in Mid-late 2009. Depends on the manufacture but some have them as early as July/August.
 
2010-02-24 12:45:14 PM  
People should go to jail over this.
 
2010-02-24 12:45:26 PM  
Toyota did screw up, but let's keep things in perspective. Based on the data I saw you're about 1,000x more likely to die from your own dumbass mistake driving one of the affected Toyota models than you are to die due to a defect.

Obviously the issue needs to be fixed, but I don't see any reason to panic over it.
 
2010-02-24 12:45:31 PM  

floor9: manimal2878: %100 bullshiat.

I don't know about that, man. There are too many complaints to be ignored.

I'm not a mechanic, so the inner workings of these systems is beyond my skill level. But if the throttle is indeed a "throttle by wire" system, and if the transmission is also electronic, then it's not hard to imagine a software failure.


I don't think these cars have braking by wire, so I'm going with "%100 bullshiat".
 
2010-02-24 12:46:09 PM  

Kar98: always drive


The only reason, huh?
 
2010-02-24 12:46:17 PM  
So is this why we don't have flying cars yet?
 
2010-02-24 12:46:19 PM  

Ingaba: I know it's not the best option to take in the event of runaway acceleration, but before I took the time to fish my cell phone out of my pocket and make a call I would have turned the key in the ignition to the off position and shut the car down.


Aren't these cars push button start/stop now? You have to have the key fob in the car, but there's no turnkey ignition any more.
 
2010-02-24 12:46:44 PM  

TwistedIvory: I have a hard time envisioning an entirely electronic transmission selector, too.


I don't.

Link
 
2010-02-24 12:46:53 PM  
My parents both have a Prius, and I've driven their car plenty of times. I'm willing to believe that she had trouble putting it into neutral (it has a super weird tiny handle for shifting, and I'm assuming the lexus is the same way).
HOWEVER, let me say this- when you shift the prius, the handle resets to the middle. So she may have been continually trying to push the button in, and freaking out because it kept resetting and not sticking. Especially if it was a new car to her (as people above are saying, her story only works if she had had the car only a month or two), she may never have noticed that happening.

here's a picture: apronstringsemily.files.wordpress.com

Also, having grown up driving a stick, I can't imagine putting a car into neutral, slamming the brakes (including emergency brake) and turning off the car won't slow it down.
 
2010-02-24 12:46:58 PM  

mantabulous: Eddie Adams from Torrance: God was a real dick for letting her ride 6 miles at 100 MPH before stopping her car.

You forget that it's all part of his plan. His ways are beyond your understanding.


Bullshiat! 6 miles at 100 mph? Thats 600 miles! That's TORTURE!
 
2010-02-24 12:47:04 PM  
Rman

sweet looking double-nickel!
 
2010-02-24 12:47:28 PM  

lokidecat: "I called my husband on the blue tooth phone system. "

No one talks like that. She was coached to say that, period. Sorry folks, but that's one of those points that a lawyer is hired to not gloss over. Had she just said she called her husband, an argument can be made for phone use being irresponsible and yadda yadda.

That was intentional and probably unlikely.


Gee, you think that somebody who obviously has some money (she was driving a Lexus, after all) and was called to testify before Congress might have... you know... spoken to a lawyer first? Because that seems totally unlikely to me.
 
2010-02-24 12:47:39 PM  
Gee, am I the only one who finds it strange these claims of sudden acceleration come after the gummint buys into GM and Chrysler? I mean Toyota has a well deserved reputation for quality (you can usually get 250,000 miles out of their vehicles no problem; not so with most GM and Chrysler products) so what better way to destroy that rep than with a safety scandal?

To put this in further perspective, how many Toyotas were known to have accelerated out of control? And how many Toyotas are on the road? And how many of the out of control Toyotas were that way becuase the driver was a dumbass and pressed the wrong pedal?
 
2010-02-24 12:47:49 PM  

trappedspirit: Why is it always old people who claimed to have done everything technically available to stop the car but they still cannot program a vcr? I call panicky shenanigans/selective recall/insurance dodge

/wotsavcr


Kind of why I wished they brought in somebody who didn't look like they've had a silver spoon in their mouth since birth, and has never had to do anything themselves. The fact she also drives a lexus just kind of furthers that point.

Not saying that what this lady said isn't entirely plausible, just that we'll never know for sure. "What do you mean my purse was sitting on the gas pedal?" or the floor mat, or her cruise acceleration was being engaged.

/I fail to see how braking would not stop the car either.
 
2010-02-24 12:48:06 PM  
"Oh crap! I just put the new Lexus my husband bought me into the guardrail! He's going to kill me! I need to come up with an excuse that not only absolves me of any responsibility, but also makes me look good. Now think..."
 
2010-02-24 12:48:12 PM  

ihatedumbpeople: Incident happened in 2006? I wonder when...our AllData system doesn't show the ES350 model was available until the '07 model year.


You know damn well why it wouldn't.
 
2010-02-24 12:48:21 PM  

floor9: What amuses me is the people who insist -- INSIST -- that the transmission selector is a direct, mechanical link to the transmission itself. I am no mechanic, but I am willing to bet that in most cars today -- especially relatively high-end cars like Lexus -- this is no longer the case. Everything is electronic; the selector is just an input device.


pretty sure the manual on my '06 legacy is direct. The fact that I can and do occasionally grind gears (and feel it through the shifter), seems to contradict the notion of the stick being electronically abstracted by the transmission. Plus there's the occasionaly difficulty entering reverse after being parked (I have to cycle through forward gears first sometimes). That would be something a behind the scenes wired system would presumably prevent.

Now paddle shifters are another story...
 
2010-02-24 12:48:31 PM  

SpectroBoy: One retard claiming she had both feet on the brakes and still couldn't stop the car does NOT make it true. Unless the Toyota has brake by wire, the brake pedal should win.


If the car does have brake by wire, Toyota should bring it up at their testimony and tell that woman to stuff her lies where the sun doesn't shine. I think this thread has already found at least 2 holes in her story, braking aside.
 
2010-02-24 12:48:37 PM  

ihatedumbpeople: Incident happened in 2006? I wonder when...our AllData system doesn't show the ES350 model was available until the '07 model year.


same reason I can buy a 2011 model-year cars before the end of 2010? Citation (new window)
 
2010-02-24 12:48:48 PM  
man, i seriously want to cockpunch the assholes that are commenting with shiat like 'she obviously did NOT put it into neutral'

what these farking assclowns dont realize is that newer cars, ESPECIALLY luxury cars like lexus, are all controlled by the ECU.

so yeah, your transformer, gas pedal, engine and brakes can all fail at once if the ECU has a bad ROM file or it somehow is corrupted.

seriously, someone post a cockpunch picture please!
 
2010-02-24 12:49:03 PM  

doglover: LOLIDRIVESTICKPAD

I always knew automatics were retarded, and this proves it. If it happened to me I'd try and hit the center wall maybe.


It is not the automatic transmission that is the problem, it is the farking electronics. They have a major bug somewhere in their code, and if I was guessing it is one that only happens after modules a, b, d, e, and f have ran, then module z runs for the square root of X multiplied by PI divided by the log of e time. Good luck figuring out what the fark that is about, also it is probably the most expensive piece on the entire car to fix.
 
2010-02-24 12:49:08 PM  

rman: That why I drive this.. 4 speed, CLUTCH, and Battery Shut OFFSwitch in Floor!
//">


And it will fling you through the windshield if you hit something.
 
2010-02-24 12:49:09 PM  
How do we know these people are not lying for their "cut"? Seems more likely than a car in neutral accelerting that a woman driver is both retarded and out for a check.
 
2010-02-24 12:49:10 PM  
HansensDisease
After 6 miles God intervened as the car came very slowly to a stop.

I wasn't aware that God controlled the reset pin on embedded processors!

Does that feature come with the car?


God is a standard feature on all 2010 Lexus models and is part of the luxury and sport packages on the Camry and Corolla.
 
2010-02-24 12:49:19 PM  
thepatriotaxe.com
/sepaku or hari kari?
 
2010-02-24 12:49:30 PM  

alywa: The accelerator issues sound like electrical / computer problems based on the testimonies I've read so far. That said, here's my Cool Story Bro ®...

Last fall I had reason to travel to So. Cal for a conference. The hotel we were staying at had valet only parking, which was free to hybrid drivers.

When I rented a car, a Prius was only $15 more a day (valet would have been $25 / day)... I decided to rent the Prius and not pay for parking.

That car was a nightmare. Numerous times I'd think I was in gear, only to be in neutral. Or, I'd think I was in park, and lift my foot off the brake, only to lurch forward. For those of you who haven't driven one or ridden in one, for reasons only explicable to Toyota, they have a completely non-standard shift / drive selection mechanism. (I should add, I drive a Civic Hybrid as my regular commuter car... good mileage, drives pretty much the same as a regular civic. Same keys, same gear selection, same pull lever parking brake, etc)

Look at the picture above. There is an on/off button. A parking brake button. A shifter / drive selector that puts the car in drive, neutral, reverse, and in an "eco mode". This may all make immediate sense to Prius owners, but for most of us I'd say it is confusing. Some of the stories I've read had to do with rental / loaner cars, so I'd have to imagine this confusion has played in somewhat.

So... people who don't know to hold down the power button are farked. If the car won't shift out of drive you're farked. An electronic parking brake button isn't going to do shiat. Nothing in that car isn't electronicly controlled (transmission, acceleration, braking, etc)... almost nothing someone can do if the electronics are going bad, and if the start/stop button won't actually turn off the car (big question), what else can you do?

I'd predict this is going to end up being the largest product liability situation since the tobacco settlements... the loss of sales Toyota / Lexus is likely suffering right now must be devastating. They've got a serious farking problem, and I don't see how they are going to get out of it anytime soon.


Interesting. The Toyota Prius was going to be my next car. Maybe I will go for a Chevrolet Volt instead.
 
2010-02-24 12:49:33 PM  

oldfarthenry: Let's see - the government pours BILLIONS into the domestic auto industry then TA-DA - their major competition gets raked over the coals over recall issues.

Sorry, lady - I know the UAW is paying you a lot of money to testi-lie but I'm smellin' a conspiracy!
*adjusts tin foil hat*


Could be that the other car companies cut corners to turn a profit... but hey, what do I know about corporate deadlines.
 
2010-02-24 12:50:10 PM  

impaler: Actually no one is griping on her saying "thank god!" They are commenting on the fact that she attributes god to slowing the car. The point being it doesn't take hours of scientific thought to reason "if god gets credit for stopping it, why not starting it?"


Au contraire, people are sh*tting all over her for not being able to provide an explanation for something. The Toyota technicians with diagnostic equipment were also unable to explain it. She used a colloquial device to describe the unexplained, unexpected, and altogether appreciated. Do all such posters lose hours of sleep whenever someone describes an "act of God" in reference to insurance claims?

Prank Call of Cthulhu: The Lord replied, 'My precious child, I love you and I would never leave you. During your times of trial and suffering, when you see only one set of skid marks, that's when I was calling you over the OnStar system to tell you you mixed up the brake and gas pedals, but the phone was busy because you were yakking with your husband. Stupid biatch.'"


So the whole time that she describes shifting the transmission, attempting to cycle the ignition, using the e-brake you're 100% certain that she had her feet jammed, continuously on the gas thinking it was the brake. How would it have affected this argument if she had said "after six miles, I guess I was touched by his noodly appendage because the car finally slowed. Just kidding I'm an avowed atheist and there's no such thing as God. The car slowed down, and I'm appreciative of that continued living thing."

What a stupid c*nt, not believing in FSM or any other spaghetti monsters.
 
2010-02-24 12:50:11 PM  

factoryconnection: GAT_00: Because if people did that, they'd think it through and stop believing in God. I always have to stop myself from strangling someone when they say something like that.

Her car was hurtling down the highway and nothing that she could do could bring it under control. Then, randomly the car slowed down despite continued signs that the thing was f*cked up. Believe it or not, people reacting to unexplained events that without hours and hours of scientific thought aren't doing it just to piss off thin-skinned douche bags on the internet.

Lady: "Thank God I'm not dead."
ITA: "F*CK YOU YOU STUPID C*NT GOD HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT WHY DON'T YOU PUT MORE THOUGHT INTO IT YOU FAT COW!!!"

Get a grip on yourselves.


When unexplained events happen, I don't immediately think 'magic!', but then, I'm not an idiot.
 
2010-02-24 12:50:18 PM  

ZAZ: floor9

Are you sure your clutch is a direct mechanical link? My last two cars have had a master-slave cylinder pair that malfunctioned leaving the clutch engaged full time.


A cylinder is part of a hydraulic system, right? Does it necessarily include electronics?

/seriously - I'm asking...
 
2010-02-24 12:50:27 PM  

Katie98_KT: My parents both have a Prius, and I've driven their car plenty of times. I'm willing to believe that she had trouble putting it into neutral (it has a super weird tiny handle for shifting, and I'm assuming the lexus is the same way).
HOWEVER, let me say this- when you shift the prius, the handle resets to the middle. So she may have been continually trying to push the button in, and freaking out because it kept resetting and not sticking. Especially if it was a new car to her (as people above are saying, her story only works if she had had the car only a month or two), she may never have noticed that happening.

here's a picture:

Also, having grown up driving a stick, I can't imagine putting a car into neutral, slamming the brakes (including emergency brake) and turning off the car won't slow it down.


It works if the ECU decides to put the transmission into neutral when you move the gearshift. If it decides not to like in this case, you're pretty much farked. Same goes for the electronic ignition etc
 
2010-02-24 12:50:27 PM  
Honestly, I'm more shocked by the people who act like 100mph on a highway is ridiculously fast and there's no possible way to do anything beyond hanging on for dear life at those kinds of speeds.

In any well built card designed for comfortable highway travel, 100mph is quick, but not a Huge Farking Deal(tm). When I was a teenager, less conscience of the financial ramifications, 100mph was no big deal. Now that I'm older, it's still police concerns that prevent those speeds and not safety concerns (assuming good road conditions). I'd be absolutely shocked if the majority of people in this thread criticizing her for calling her husband at 100mph haven't driven comfortably at 100mph, even if it was accidental due to incline or not paying enough attention to speed while passing.

100mph in a neighborhood; perhaps panic is called for, but she was on an interstate. The worst case scenario is not being able to navigate around other slower drivers. Her car should be able to safely handle the highway at 100mph if she doesn't panic.
 
2010-02-24 12:50:33 PM  

oldfarthenry: Let's see - the government pours BILLIONS into the domestic auto industry then TA-DA - their major competition gets raked over the coals over recall issues.

Sorry, lady - I know the UAW is paying you a lot of money to testi-lie but I'm smellin' a conspiracy!
*adjusts tin foil hat*


THIS!! This this this, oh this!
 
2010-02-24 12:50:44 PM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: Eddie Adams from Torrance: God was a real dick for letting her ride 6 miles at 100 MPH before stopping her car.

No, it'll turn out to be one of those inspirational, "Footprints" kind of things.

"...Lord, you said that once I decided to follow you you'd drive with me all the way. But I noticed there is only one set of skid marks down the whole six miles of freeway. I don't understand why when I needed you most you would leave me.

The Lord replied, 'My precious child, I love you and I would never leave you. During your times of trial and suffering, when you see only one set of skid marks, that's when I was calling you over the OnStar system to tell you you mixed up the brake and gas pedals, but the phone was busy because you were yakking with your husband. Stupid biatch.'"


I'd like to see that laminated to a wooden plaque and hung on a wall.
 
2010-02-24 12:50:47 PM  

bodyshots: so yeah, your transformer,


don't bring my transformer into this!
 
2010-02-24 12:51:01 PM  
She left out the part where she deliberately drove off a cliff to avoid hitting a busload of nuns and orphans in that version.
 
2010-02-24 12:51:11 PM  
See? this is what happens when people get lazy. "Oooh it's so much WORK to turn a key to start my car, why oh why doesn't someone make it easier?"

Supposedly, you can shut these pushbutton cars down by holding the button down, but if the software is already freaking out, will it pay any attention to the button? I don't know, because my car has a key (and a stickshift just like a Real ITG) that actually cuts power to the engine electronics to shut the car off, not one of these buttons like an ATX power supp....

Heeeyyyyy..... Nah, not possible. Can't be using cheap power supplies in those expensive cars, right?

Unimpressed.

www.freewebs.com

Best smell in the world....
 
2010-02-24 12:51:16 PM  

impaler: factoryconnection: Her car was hurtling down the highway and nothing that she could do could bring it under control. Then, randomly the car slowed down despite continued signs that the thing was f*cked up. Believe it or not, people reacting to unexplained events that without hours and hours of scientific thought aren't doing it just to piss off thin-skinned douche bags on the internet.

Lady: "Thank God I'm not dead."
ITA: "F*CK YOU YOU STUPID C*NT GOD HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT WHY DON'T YOU PUT MORE THOUGHT INTO IT YOU FAT COW!!!"

Get a grip on yourselves.

Actually no one is griping on her saying "thank god!" They are commenting on the fact that she attributes god to slowing the car. The point being it doesn't take hours of scientific thought to reason "if god gets credit for stopping it, why not starting it?"


Psht. Of course God didn't get her into trouble. Satan did. Or one of those other crap gods that the heathens have.
Or Obama.
Or some guy putting his peener into another guy's butt.

Get serious.
 
2010-02-24 12:51:21 PM  

mr lawson: ihatedumbpeople: Incident happened in 2006? I wonder when...our AllData system doesn't show the ES350 model was available until the '07 model year.

You know damn well why it wouldn't.


Wow... didn't notice ihatedumbpeople's post there... C'mon, are you telling me you have access to an AllData system and still have such little knowledge of cars that you don't realize that cars from a given model number year start going on sale around August of the previous year?

Whatever dealership, part store, or mechanic shop you work for, I hope to never go there.
 
2010-02-24 12:51:23 PM  
Maximum Overdrive anyone?
 
2010-02-24 12:51:29 PM  

Ivan Dobski: /sepaku or hari kari?


Same thing.
 
2010-02-24 12:52:34 PM  

PsyLord: So is this why we don't have flying cars yet?



No. We don't have flying cars because our retarded nation can't drive on a farking straight road, at only 45 mph, without hitting another goddam car...
 
2010-02-24 12:52:41 PM  

ihatedumbpeople: BlackCat23: ihatedumbpeople: Incident happened in 2006? I wonder when...our AllData system doesn't show the ES350 model was available until the '07 model year.

Which hit the market in '06. Like most models do.(ie: new model years come out in the numerical year before. 07 cars come out in 06, '11 cars come out in '10)

I'm aware of that...just pointing out how small the window had to be for this to happen...if the '07 model was the first ES350 and this happened in 06, that car had to have been damn near brand new...makes you wonder if this was a buggy software glitch or if she's full of crap...


It went on sale iirc the last week of april 06, her incident occurred on October 12th of the same year. So yeah, pretty small window, but not out of the realm of possibility of various electrical things to go wrong, either.


7of7: BlackCat23: that it has MULTIPLE causes(yes, the pedal is a cause, the force feedback part of the drive by wire pedal can wear and stick)is downright negligent.

Which is why I'm guessing the whole controversy is a load of media overreaction and congressional hand wringing to appear competent spurned on by greedy lawyers and people like this lady who are all too ready to claim something happened so they can get on the class action and media appearance gravy train.


While i agree about the lawsuit/congressional biggus dickus stuff, if it is eventually found that there's multiple causes, both physical and electronic, toyota should be held accountable for it. I've been hearing a lot of "this is toyota's pinto moment" after that internal memo about saving a couple hundred mil worked it's way out into the world.
 
2010-02-24 12:52:50 PM  

Eddie Adams from Torrance: HansensDisease: After 6 miles God intervened as the car came very slowly to a stop.

I wasn't aware that God controlled the reset pin on embedded processors!

Does that feature come with the car?

God was a real dick for letting her ride 6 miles at 100 MPH before stopping her car.


Except now she can testify, and help ensure others don't have the same problem. If it would have only accelerated for 1 or 2 seconds, she would have probably never filed a complaint or have been contacted. If she would have died, she wouldn't have testified.

Seems like she tried everything, and lived to warn others...
 
2010-02-24 12:52:56 PM  

Katie98_KT: My parents both have a Prius, and I've driven their car plenty of times. I'm willing to believe that she had trouble putting it into neutral (it has a super weird tiny handle for shifting, and I'm assuming the lexus is the same way).
HOWEVER, let me say this- when you shift the prius, the handle resets to the middle. So she may have been continually trying to push the button in, and freaking out because it kept resetting and not sticking. Especially if it was a new car to her (as people above are saying, her story only works if she had had the car only a month or two), she may never have noticed that happening.

here's a picture:

Also, having grown up driving a stick, I can't imagine putting a car into neutral, slamming the brakes (including emergency brake) and turning off the car won't slow it down.


Actually, the Lexus isn't anything like that at all.
 
2010-02-24 12:53:03 PM  

ihatedumbpeople: Incident happened in 2006? I wonder when...our AllData system doesn't show the ES350 model was available until the '07 model year.


The NHTSA contacted the people that currently own the car and they said they bought it with under 3000 miles from the woman in question after the incident, so I doubt there is any fabrication on that part of the issue.
 
2010-02-24 12:53:18 PM  
I'd like to buy a car like this. I've always wanted to take out a school bus full of orphans, and with this amazing, magical car I can leave Toyota to pay the bill!

The new Toyota Psyhco!!
 
2010-02-24 12:53:42 PM  

bighairyguy: She left out the part where she deliberately drove off a cliff to avoid hitting a busload of nuns and orphans in that version.


forwhomthebagtolls.com
 
2010-02-24 12:53:43 PM  

alywa: That car was a nightmare. Numerous times I'd think I was in gear, only to be in neutral. Or, I'd think I was in park, and lift my foot off the brake, only to lurch forward. For those of you who haven't driven one or ridden in one, for reasons only explicable to Toyota, they have a completely non-standard shift / drive selection mechanism.


thank you for proving my point. Some people are just too stupid to operate a car.

The parking brake has a light. If the light is on you're not going anywhere, how hard is that?
 
2010-02-24 12:53:45 PM  

Talon: mrshowrules: impaler: If any of this is remotely true, that TWO components of the car could simultaneously fail, the car manufacturer known as Toyota should cease to exist.

While it is impossible to design a throttle system that could never fail, things stick, sensors error. It should be nearly impossible for that to fail at the same time as the brake sensors, which should kill any >5%-10% throttle when >5%-10% braking is applied. And in the 'that should never happen, but hey, people win the lottery even though it is 100 million to one' event that that does happen, the ability to put the car in neutral should not fail.

I am inclined to believe this women isn't 100% honest, and that the above scenario is in fact impossible, because you have to be one incompetent engineer to design a system where the throttle, brakes and shifting don't fail-safe.

But if Toyota isn't immediately releasing a statement to that effect, you have to wonder.

If Toyota hasn't raped and murdered a girl in 1990 wasn't born in the US hasn't done anything wrong, why won't they come out and say it? Their silence is damning!

Bad logic is bad.

I don't think Toyota is telling the whole truth simply because of the stories like this from both men and women where it is obvious it is not a matter of a pedal stuck on a floor matt. But I don't think it is intentional or malicious. The systems were probably designed to fail-safe, but programs glitch and things can go wrong. I think Toyota isn't saying anything because they want to preserve plausible deniability. Even if they think she's nuts and want to shove it in her face exactly how they design it to be fail-safe, it is in their better legal interest to remain silent.


You are misrepersenting my point. All I said it "makes you wonder" why Toyota isn't coming out with a statement regarding this testimony. Your point about why they would do this is certainly possible.
 
2010-02-24 12:53:45 PM  

manimal2878: Ingaba: I know it's not the best option to take in the event of runaway acceleration, but before I took the time to fish my cell phone out of my pocket and make a call I would have turned the key in the ignition to the off position and shut the car down.

If your car is ramping up in speed, wouldn't you need both hands on the wheel to steer around things and avoid obstacles? I find it incredibly unlikely she could have made a phone call and paid attention to the road enough to avoid wrecking.


Meh, it only made it to a 100mph, shiat I would question what kind of tinker toy engine it had in it that in 6 miles at full throttle it only made it to a 100mph. Fark I regularly drive at those speeds with one hand, the other is either jacking me off or stuffing a Big Mac into my fat face.
 
2010-02-24 12:53:58 PM  
Ringringring...

Hello?

OMGWTFBBQ! My car's been haxxored! I'm doing 110 down the interstate and I CAN'T STOP!!!

Is your life insurance current?

:)
 
2010-02-24 12:53:59 PM  

AshHousewares18: Is this the thread where I get to brag about my manual transmission F-150 from 1997 and how much more awesome it is than them thar fancy luxury cars with their electronic controls?

Because mechanical stuff never fails, ever.


But when it does, you can often identify the cause.
 
2010-02-24 12:53:59 PM  

stewbert: The farking Prius work car gives me fits all the time. Sometimes it's slapstick comedy trying to get the damn thing into drive or park.


Huh?

"Park" isn't on the Prius shifter, you know.
 
2010-02-24 12:54:03 PM  
NPR (or BBC World, whatever was on last night) said she used a Bluetooth headset to call her husband.

So she might not have taken her hands off the damn wheel.

/God this judging from my computer chair ITG crap is getting OLD
 
2010-02-24 12:54:03 PM  

Katie98_KT: weird shifter knob


Thanks for the better picture. As someone who hadn't drive one before, it was very confusing to me. As I said in my post, the selector in the model I was driving had another setting to the right, an all-electric Eco Mode (good for a mile or so in slow traffic).

Unnecessary and very likely a contributing factor in this whole fiasco.
 
2010-02-24 12:54:59 PM  
Story of hers is complete bunk. Throwing a car into reverse at that speed will gernade the transmission, at best. At worst, a RWD car could flip if the driveshaft came loose and pole vaulted the car. Here is a video of a guy racing his mustang and accidentally putting the car in reverse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNLz9E92-FU
 
2010-02-24 12:55:05 PM  

cbcs: Actually, the Lexus isn't anything like that at all.


bugger. Sorry, never seen a lexus. Good theory though, right?
 
2010-02-24 12:55:06 PM  

Bippal: Kar98: always drive

The only reason, huh?


Well, and you can't hill-start an automatic.
 
2010-02-24 12:55:36 PM  

SpectroBoy: One retard claiming she had both feet on the brakes and still couldn't stop the car does NOT make it true. Unless the Toyota has brake by wire, the brake pedal should win.


The car should also not accelerate on its own, but we're not dealing with what should happen here. We're dealing with Toyota.
 
2010-02-24 12:55:44 PM  

Chevello: Supposedly, you can shut these pushbutton cars down by holding the button down, but if the software is already freaking out, will it pay any attention to the button? I don't know, because my car has a key (and a stickshift just like a Real ITG) that actually cuts power to the engine electronics to shut the car off, not one of these buttons like an ATX power supp....


Hmm. If you were to hold down the "off" button on the car for five seconds...
 
2010-02-24 12:55:56 PM  
No mechanical control of the ignition switch.
No mechanical control of the accelerator.
No mechanical control of the transmission.

I don't care what brand of automobile this is. It looks like a recipe for trouble.
 
2010-02-24 12:56:07 PM  
Like I say in all these car threads...
Emergency Kill Switch.
i50.tinypic.com

Problem solved.
 
2010-02-24 12:56:09 PM  

Ingaba: hb0mb: In my car, a 2006 bmw, there is no key to turn. you put it into a slot and press a button. much like to make a phone call, you press a button on the steering wheel. I'm willing to bet the lexus is probably comprable to my car.

According to Toyota, if you press the start button and hold it for 2-5 seconds the car will turn off.


WTF? Are they using a Windows PC for their computer?
 
2010-02-24 12:56:39 PM  

alywa: Katie98_KT: weird shifter knob

...As someone who hadn't drive one before, it was very confusing to me.


weren't similar wrecks the reason transmission controls were standardized back in the day?
 
2010-02-24 12:56:41 PM  
There are people all over the country, who have been convicted and sentenced to multiple year prison terms because of these issues. Vehicular assault and Vehicular homicide are pretty serious felonies. Toyota, Lexus, Perodua, Daihatsu and Scion cars have had these problems for more than a decade. There have been wrecks where people have been killed, and its always been chalked up to speed being the primary factor in the wreck.

One here in my area, was a Scion, brand new, three kids lost their lives on a local connecting highway, going speeds that should have been impossible for the car if it was being driven normally. I remember this one in particular because it happened on the viaduct just above my work and scattered car parts all over our parking lot, which was more than 150 feet away from the initial impact site.

I Wonder how many people have lost their lives or their freedom because of these problems which have just now become public? I wonder how many people are sitting in prison because their defense (that the car was accelerating uncontrollably and the brakes wouldn't work) just didn't fly with the Jury? I wonder how many of these trials had witnesses from the Corporation who testified that these sorts of events were physically impossible and had never happened before?

Seems to me that there is a bigger shiat sandwich here that nobody wants to talk about.
 
2010-02-24 12:57:09 PM  

Mr Guy: Honestly, I'm more shocked by the people who act like 100mph on a highway is ridiculously fast and there's no possible way to do anything beyond hanging on for dear life at those kinds of speeds.


100 mph isn't fast when traffic is moving at 95mph. 100mph is quite fast when traffic is moving at 65mph, sorta like driving around a parking lot at 35 mph. It is also quite fast when your car is doing it regardless of your input. Sorta like a freaking nightmare.

Unless I read the story wrong, or it missed some info, she did handle this without crashing.
 
2010-02-24 12:57:21 PM  
Approves of actuarial assessment
estb.msn.com
 
2010-02-24 12:57:24 PM  

Kar98: Bippal: Kar98: always drive

The only reason, huh?

Well, and you can't hill-start an automatic.


I'll take that bet.
 
2010-02-24 12:57:35 PM  

bodyshots: so yeah, your transformer, gas pedal, engine and brakes can all fail at once if the ECU has a bad ROM file or it somehow is corrupted.


Any company that doesn't give the transformer, gas pedal, engine and brakes their own separate ECU, with redundant inter-communication networks, is asking for trouble.
 
2010-02-24 12:58:12 PM  
I'm sure glad I have a clutch with a mechanical linkage and a gearshift that has a direct physical linkage to the transmissions internals.

/you deserve to be killed if you drive an automatic
//auto drivers are worst drivers in the world
///One hand on their cell phone, eating a burger with the other, smacking their kids with one foot and steering with their other knee, tailgating all the way.
 
2010-02-24 12:59:05 PM  
Little-known fact: Toyota on-board systems were designed by Dr. Chandra--
blueinfinite.com
 
2010-02-24 12:59:12 PM  

Slaves2Darkness: Meh, it only made it to a 100mph, shiat I would question what kind of tinker toy engine it had in it that in 6 miles at full throttle it only made it to a 100mph. Fark I regularly drive at those speeds with one hand, the other is either jacking me off or stuffing a Big Mac into my fat face.


I've easily driven between 95 and 100 in complete control of the car, but I a) chose to do so, b) knew that I could take my foot off the gas pedal whenever I wanted, c) only did so on a two lane highway with no other traffic.

Well, except that cop, but I knew someone was probably hiding in that spot and he just clocked me at 80 and booked me for 5 over.

Good times.
 
2010-02-24 12:59:20 PM  

impaler: Any company that doesn't give the transformer, gas pedal, engine and brakes their own separate ECU, with redundant inter-communication networks, is asking for trouble.


I always give my transformer separate Edible Clothing Units. Doesn't everyone?

Wait...what did YOU think ECU meant?

/backing out of thread
 
2010-02-24 12:59:27 PM  
I don't necessarily doubt her story - based on my own experiences, I probably wouldn't buy a drive by wire vehicle until the tech has matured a bit - but there have been plenty of panics over "uncontrollable acceleration" in the past, most of which have been grounded in operator error. I do wonder if there's any evidence beyond her testimony that supports her recollection of events - photos of the highway with 6 miles of fresh skid marks, garage reports on the vehicle (which is still on the road, etc.

Does anyone know if that model has brake by wire?
 
2010-02-24 01:00:01 PM  

HeartBurnKid: manimal2878: Ingaba: I know it's not the best option to take in the event of runaway acceleration, but before I took the time to fish my cell phone out of my pocket and make a call I would have turned the key in the ignition to the off position and shut the car down.

If your car is ramping up in speed, wouldn't you need both hands on the wheel to steer around things and avoid obstacles? I find it incredibly unlikely she could have made a phone call and paid attention to the road enough to avoid wrecking.

She was driving a Lexus ES350. It has Bluetooth.

Calling her husband didn't involve digging a cell phone out or hammering buttons, it was as simple as holding in a button on the radio and saying, "Call John" (or whatever his name is).


No no, She was screaming "God damn mother farker! and the voice control placed the call.
 
2010-02-24 01:00:14 PM  
I would like to see Toyota disprove all these bullshiat stories, drop their prices 20%, and come up with some kickass financing, and hopefully manage to choke the last bit of remaining life out of GM once and for all.
 
2010-02-24 01:00:15 PM  

darcsun: Story of hers is complete bunk. Throwing a car into reverse at that speed will gernade the transmission, at best. At worst, a RWD car could flip if the driveshaft came loose and pole vaulted the car. Here is a video of a guy racing his mustang and accidentally putting the car in reverse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNLz9E92-FU


With a electronic transmission the car won't let you put it in reverse, software in the ecu protects the car from this occurring. You can try physically, but nothing will happen.
 
2010-02-24 01:00:16 PM  

floor9: manimal2878: %100 bullshiat.

I don't know about that, man. There are too many complaints to be ignored.

I'm not a mechanic, so the inner workings of these systems is beyond my skill level. But if the throttle is indeed a "throttle by wire" system, and if the transmission is also electronic, then it's not hard to imagine a software failure.

Software-based safety systems that lack active physical backups (I'm not sure of the exact terminology, but the kind of physical safety mechanism where the computer has to constantly work to bypass said safety, and if the computer fails for any reason, the safety is suddenly "unsuppressed" and kicks in) are notoriously unreliable.

The Therac-25 comes to mind.



I *am* a mechanic, and I'm also calling bullshiat on this one.

Every single control system would have to fail all at once in a very specific way for this to happen. The engine ECU would have to set throttle to full and the transformer ECU would have to lock itself in drive, shift gears, and refuse to accept all inputs (that's three failures in one).

Sorry, but no. Car management systems are not designed that way. Two separate computers would have to fail in very specific ways at the same time. The simplest answer is that the lady is lying about the transformer locking up because she is like the local Fark Brigade who wants everything to be Toyota's fault beyond any shadow of a doubt.

She didn't shift to Neutral, the car didn't try to re-start itself when her hubby allegedly moved the gear selector (WTF kind of bullshiat is that?!), and she didn't respond with all of that precision while playing Hercules on the brake pedal (ummmm, power assist and the ABS make that pointless - brake systems are not direct-control anymore).

She's making shiat up. End of story.
 
2010-02-24 01:00:32 PM  

TwistedIvory: I have a hard time envisioning an entirely electronic transmission selector, too.


This one's not uncommon at all and they've been around for 50 years.

www.irememberjfk.com

Link (new window)

I know many modern GMC Topkick trucks have the 'shifter' on the dash to the left of the steering wheel, there are three buttons (R,N,D) and an LED display to show the current gear.

Shifter failure is one of the more believable things she described.

I was one of the skeptics, but the more I hear the more I think Toyota's got a very serious - perhaps company destroying - problem on their hands.

This lady's story is getting attention because she cried but the really compelling one is the CHP officer who was killed with his family in a Lexus. His 911 call is devastating - calmly describing the situation right up to impact. I'll buy an untrained civilian losing it, but this guy was a 20 year vet who probably did nothing but drive for most of his career and he couldn't get his car to stop.

If you've got Toyota stock, dump it right now.
 
2010-02-24 01:00:35 PM  

bongmiester: Fearing death, she called husband.

driving 100mph in an out of control vehicle she searches for her cell phone and calls her husband. i'm surprised none of the congressmen jumped on this.


So, when she said "Bluetooth", you took that to mean "not bluetooth, fished out of her purse, and hand dialed" ?

Way to read for comprehension there, Ace.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2010-02-24 01:00:35 PM  
Babwa Wawa

The clutch system is mechanical in a literal sense, and as far as I know has no electronics, but it's a step or two removed from a direct link. There are several things that can go wrong.

Fortunately it's easier to shift into neutral without a clutch than it is to get into gear. I never tried it under full throttle though.
 
2010-02-24 01:00:37 PM  

darcsun: Story of hers is complete bunk. Throwing a car into reverse at that speed will gernade the transmission, at best. At worst, a RWD car could flip if the driveshaft came loose and pole vaulted the car. Here is a video of a guy racing his mustang and accidentally putting the car in reverse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNLz9E92-FU


Spoken like a true armchair automotive engineer. Modern automatics have pawls that prevent that type of acrobatics.

Deathfrogg: Seems to me that there is a bigger shiat sandwich here that nobody wants to talk about.


Sorry dude, the consensus is in: she's a lying c*nt and the corporation, as always, is on solid footing.
 
2010-02-24 01:00:46 PM  

forresttriax: No no, She was screaming "God damn mother farker! and the voice control placed the call.


+1
 
2010-02-24 01:01:00 PM  

medius: weren't similar wrecks the reason transmission controls were standardized back in the day?


Not sure, but I found it all very odd. It seems like Toyota just went with different for different's sake... ie "Hey look, its a funky hybrid car with a funky transmission. Isn't that futuristic and cool!?!?!?!"
 
2010-02-24 01:01:06 PM  

fluffy2097: //auto drivers are worst drivers in the world
///One hand on their cell phone, eating a burger with the other, smacking their kids with one foot and steering with their other knee, tailgating all the way.


Moseying in and out of lanes and driveways and sideroads, not a care in the world, not ever once using a turn signal, slowing down to a crawl a block or two before they reach their turn, oblivious to their surroundings and without any farking regard to the presence of other drivers outside their rolling sofa.
 
2010-02-24 01:01:09 PM  

Eddie Adams from Torrance: God was a real dick for letting her ride 6 miles at 100 MPH before stopping her car.


Actually, now that I think about, maybe the reason it took so long was that god had to shove his feet through the floorboard and stop the thing Flintstone's style. Afterwards, he hopped around in a comic manor, blowing on his feet and going, "Hot! Hot! Hot! Ow! Ow!" but she was still sitting in the car screaming and didn't notice.
 
2010-02-24 01:01:35 PM  

Babwa Wawa: A cylinder is part of a hydraulic system, right? Does it necessarily include electronics?

/seriously - I'm asking...



Yes - a cylinder (in the context of his comment) is part of a hydraulic system. Specifically, a hydraulically operated clutch. No electronics are required at all.
=Smidge=
 
2010-02-24 01:01:35 PM  

IQ7ZuuIU: No mechanical control of the ignition switch.
No mechanical control of the accelerator.
No mechanical control of the transmission.

I don't care what brand of automobile this is. It looks like a recipe for trouble.


Crap like this at least reminds me that I need to finish learning how to drive manual already. I can drive through a parking lot okay but I need a hell of a lot more practice before I feel comfortable driving on the roads/hills.

In retrospect, it would've been nice if they even offered that as an option during drivers ed. I would've paid a bit extra for that, too.
 
2010-02-24 01:01:36 PM  
Bring back hand brakes.
 
2010-02-24 01:01:51 PM  

Deathfrogg: There are people all over the country, who have been convicted and sentenced to multiple year prison terms because of these issues. Vehicular assault and Vehicular homicide are pretty serious felonies. Toyota, Lexus, Perodua, Daihatsu and Scion cars have had these problems for more than a decade. There have been wrecks where people have been killed, and its always been chalked up to speed being the primary factor in the wreck.

One here in my area, was a Scion, brand new, three kids lost their lives on a local connecting highway, going speeds that should have been impossible for the car if it was being driven normally. I remember this one in particular because it happened on the viaduct just above my work and scattered car parts all over our parking lot, which was more than 150 feet away from the initial impact site.

I Wonder how many people have lost their lives or their freedom because of these problems which have just now become public? I wonder how many people are sitting in prison because their defense (that the car was accelerating uncontrollably and the brakes wouldn't work) just didn't fly with the Jury? I wonder how many of these trials had witnesses from the Corporation who testified that these sorts of events were physically impossible and had never happened before?

Seems to me that there is a bigger shiat sandwich here that nobody wants to talk about.


Have you considered a career in law? Maybe filing class action lawsuits. I mean, wow, look at all these facts without citations!
 
2010-02-24 01:02:04 PM  
Having the gas pedals linked by a wire was actually more problematic of unintended acceleration. There were more reports of it due to mechanical failure than there have been since most cars have switched to electronics. Now maybe that is a result of under reporting the claims. Who knows.

I had a '91 Tbird go full throttle when a 50 cent nylon eyelet broke and pulled throttle full tilt. Put it in neutral and turned off the car. Not that it didn't scare the shiat out of me, but the key is don't panic.

I don't know of any transmission linkages that are NOT mechanical. That being said, I had a shift position sensor go bad on a Rodeo that made it buck like it was something from one. So to say there couldn't be anything electronic that might causing shifting problems is being too dismissive.

Brakes though are absolutely mechanical. Short of a master cylinder failure your brakes will work when you push the pedal, power or not. And ALL emergency brakes are attached from the pedal/stick by a steel cable and to your brakes. There is absolutely NO reason the Ebrake didn't work unless someone had disconnected it.

Not saying this lady doesn't believe what she is saying, but I don't think she really remembers what happened or how the car stopped and is looking for a payday out of it. And if she had time to call her husband she was obviously not in that much danger.
 
2010-02-24 01:02:11 PM  

alywa: Or, I'd think I was in park, and lift my foot off the brake, only to lurch forward.


Because "park" isn't on the shifter.

See that little green light in the pic you posted? It's green because that can is in park. The rectangular button that the light is part is pushed in to shift into part. It's not a "parking brake button", that a pedal on the left.

Sounds like operator error.
 
2010-02-24 01:02:35 PM  
Back to the drawing board...

images.thetruthaboutcars.com
 
2010-02-24 01:02:48 PM  
She managed to make a phone call during all of this? Sorry, I don't buy it.
 
2010-02-24 01:04:02 PM  

TwistedIvory: Especially when she talks about whipping out her cell phone while scorching pavement at 100mph in a runaway car and chatting with her husband. Because, really, if that were the case?


See my previous comment about reading for comprehension.
 
2010-02-24 01:04:04 PM  

lokidecat: "I called my husband on the blue tooth phone system. "

No one talks like that. She was coached to say that, period. Sorry folks, but that's one of those points that a lawyer is hired to not gloss over. Had she just said she called her husband, an argument can be made for phone use being irresponsible and yadda yadda.

That was intentional and probably unlikely.


I kind of wonder if she was on the phone before this started to happen? Like right before. If maybe, just maybe something in the wireless device she had with her screwed up the cars electronics some how.

That would be a biatch to prove, and would never show up in isolated testing of just the car itself. Unless you were testing to see if wireless devices farked the car.
 
2010-02-24 01:04:08 PM  
Ubuntu?
 
2010-02-24 01:04:15 PM  
The brake pedal will beat a fully revving engine at 100mph any day.

Yes. The brakes will get the car to around 70MPH, at which point they cook off and the car begins to accelerate again.
 
2010-02-24 01:04:29 PM  
Has there been any testimony from men in regards to their cars accelerating on their own?

Not that I don't trust women.....but they are inattentive drivers.

And $ome of them might think they ju$t $pilled hot coffee in their lap ju$t becau$e they drive a Toyota.....
 
2010-02-24 01:04:40 PM  

dahmers love zombie: I always give my transformer separate Edible Clothing Units. Doesn't everyone?

Wait...what did YOU think ECU meant?

/backing out of thread


Electrical Control Unit? Don't know, I just know they're talking about the embedded CPU that controls the gadgets in the car.
 
2010-02-24 01:04:42 PM  

fluffy2097: I'm sure glad I have a clutch with a mechanical linkage and a gearshift that has a direct physical linkage to the transmissions internals.

/you deserve to be killed if you drive an automatic
//auto drivers are worst drivers in the world
///One hand on their cell phone, eating a burger with the other, smacking their kids with one foot and steering with their other knee, tailgating all the way.


Really. I'm sure the truck that started crossing into my lane last week without his blinker on (and no shoulder to speak of on my side) had an automatic, right? Considering I could see his face in the mirrors, I'm pretty damn sure I wasn't in a blind spot either.

/blanket statements are effing retarded
//so are you if you can't eat and drive manual at the same time
///have friends who can multitask while driving stick as good as any suburban mom in an SUV. Which means their driving often suffers for it.
 
2010-02-24 01:04:55 PM  

TheBitterest: FTA: "After six miles later, God intervened," and the car began to slow on it own, though the engine continued to rev itself in cycles."

Why does God get all the credit for stopping the car, but none of the blame for starting it in the first place?

Did God want her to buy a new car/underwear?

How does she know this wasn't some kind of bet between God and Jesus?

Jesus: Hey dad, let's make this woman's car go 180kph, I've got $10 that says she still uses her cell phone.

God: You're on.


LOL
 
2010-02-24 01:05:23 PM  

fluffy2097: I'm sure glad I have a clutch with a mechanical linkage and a gearshift that has a direct physical linkage to the transmissions internals.

/you deserve to be killed if you drive an automatic
//auto drivers are worst drivers in the world
///One hand on their cell phone, eating a burger with the other, smacking their kids with one foot and steering with their other knee, tailgating all the way.


Meh. Things can happen. I had a '98 Outback with a hydraulic clutch. Around 120,000 miles, clutch hose sprung a leak. A mile from home and I couldn't disengage the clutch. I did manage to get it back to the house driving clutchless and promptly got a new hose and replaced it.

Of course, I had about five safe alternative means for stopping the car besides disengaging the clutch, so there's really no comparison to the Toyota debacle.

/I know, cool story
 
2010-02-24 01:05:26 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: She managed to make a phone call during all of this? Sorry, I don't buy it.


A woman having a hard time driving a vehicle, but no problem talking on the phone? What's so implausible about that?
 
2010-02-24 01:05:37 PM  

impaler: bodyshots: so yeah, your transformer, gas pedal, engine and brakes can all fail at once if the ECU has a bad ROM file or it somehow is corrupted.

Any company that doesn't give the transformer, gas pedal, engine and brakes their own separate ECU, with redundant inter-communication networks, is asking for trouble.


Because auto makers are known for not cutting corners in order to improve the bottom line

Deathfrogg: There are people all over the country, who have been convicted and sentenced to multiple year prison terms because of these issues. Vehicular assault and Vehicular homicide are pretty serious felonies. Toyota, Lexus, Perodua, Daihatsu and Scion cars have had these problems for more than a decade. There have been wrecks where people have been killed, and its always been chalked up to speed being the primary factor in the wreck.

One here in my area, was a Scion, brand new, three kids lost their lives on a local connecting highway, going speeds that should have been impossible for the car if it was being driven normally. I remember this one in particular because it happened on the viaduct just above my work and scattered car parts all over our parking lot, which was more than 150 feet away from the initial impact site.

I Wonder how many people have lost their lives or their freedom because of these problems which have just now become public? I wonder how many people are sitting in prison because their defense (that the car was accelerating uncontrollably and the brakes wouldn't work) just didn't fly with the Jury? I wonder how many of these trials had witnesses from the Corporation who testified that these sorts of events were physically impossible and had never happened before?

Seems to me that there is a bigger shiat sandwich here that nobody wants to talk about.


There was a story I read a few days ago (on fark?) about this same thing(guy is appealing his conviction again after appealing numerous times claiming sudden acceleration), but the vehicle is not under the recall by a year or two.
 
2010-02-24 01:05:46 PM  

lokidecat: "I called my husband on the blue tooth phone system. "

No one talks like that..


Excuse me I'm updating my status update on the facebook.
 
2010-02-24 01:06:13 PM  

floor9: manimal2878: %100 bullshiat.

I don't know about that, man. There are too many complaints to be ignored.

I'm not a mechanic, so the inner workings of these systems is beyond my skill level. But if the throttle is indeed a "throttle by wire" system, and if the transmission is also electronic, then it's not hard to imagine a software failure.

Software-based safety systems that lack active physical backups (I'm not sure of the exact terminology, but the kind of physical safety mechanism where the computer has to constantly work to bypass said safety, and if the computer fails for any reason, the safety is suddenly "unsuppressed" and kicks in) are notoriously unreliable.

The Therac-25 comes to mind.


First thing that came to mind for me too. Mechanical designs that act as fail safes for software errors. Unfortunately a car is far ore complex than the Therac was. It was essentially just two or three moving parts with various shields in place to halt or disperse the radiation beam.
 
2010-02-24 01:06:26 PM  

impaler: If any of this is remotely true, that TWO components of the car could simultaneously fail, the car manufacturer known as Toyota should cease to exist.

While it is impossible to design a throttle system that could never fail, things stick, sensors error. It should be nearly impossible for that to fail at the same time as the brake sensors, which should kill any >5%-10% throttle when >5%-10% braking is applied. And in the 'that should never happen, but hey, people win the lottery even though it is 100 million to one' event that that does happen, the ability to put the car in neutral should not fail.

I am inclined to believe this women isn't 100% honest, and that the above scenario is in fact impossible, because you have to be one incompetent engineer to design a system where the throttle, brakes and shifting don't fail-safe.


Toyota's electronic throttle system does not have a brake override. If the accelerator and brake are both pressed, the car will rev the engine and apply the brakes.

KyngNothing: I believe a lot of the key-fob cars require you to hold down the start button for 3-5 seconds to turn the car off...


I believe Cadillac has the right system here. The CTS I sat in at the auto show the car used a keyless ignition system, but the start/stop switch was a 3 position switch that felt like a key and was on the steering column where I expect a key to be, making turning off the car more intuitive and quicker.

You can see the 'key' in the lower right steering wheel opening here. (new window)
 
2010-02-24 01:06:49 PM  

Deucednuisance: See that little green light in the pic you posted? It's green because that can is in park. The rectangular button that the light is part is pushed in to shift into part. It's not a "parking brake button", that a pedal on the left.

Sounds like operator error.


You are exactly right... please re-read my post to get the point I'm making. It is extremely unintuitive... many of the stories (the CHP officer accident, in a loaner Lexus for example) are in rentals. There is no reason to make such an ass-backwards design when virtually 100% of other cars on the road have "park" in the gear selection. Same for push-button power needing a 3-second hold time to shut down with no written warning on instructions on it. All of this seems obvious if you own one, but as a renter, loaner, or new car owner it isn't.
 
2010-02-24 01:07:26 PM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: HotWingConspiracy: She managed to make a phone call during all of this? Sorry, I don't buy it.

A woman having a hard time driving a vehicle, but no problem talking on the phone? What's so implausible about that?


Hmmmm

Ok, I buy it.
 
2010-02-24 01:07:42 PM  
"Smart cars"? I say evil AI cars bent on human subjegation!
 
2010-02-24 01:07:52 PM  

ihatedumbpeople: Incident happened in 2006? I wonder when...our AllData system doesn't show the ES350 model was available until the '07 model year.


thm-a03.yimg.com
Mona Lisa Vito: 'Cause Chevy didn't make a 327 in '55, the 327 didn't come out till '62. And it wasn't offered in the Bel Air with a four-barrel carb till '64. However, in 1964, the correct ignition timing would be four degrees before top-dead-center
 
2010-02-24 01:07:53 PM  
Absolute bullshiat. This whole "investigation" by Congress has been nothing but a huge publicity stunt.
 
2010-02-24 01:08:21 PM  

GoodOmens: oldfarthenry: Let's see - the government pours BILLIONS into the domestic auto industry then TA-DA - their major competition gets raked over the coals over recall issues.

Sorry, lady - I know the UAW is paying you a lot of money to testi-lie but I'm smellin' a conspiracy!
*adjusts tin foil hat*

Considering there are NOT similar problems with other foreign car companies such as Hyundai, Honda, Subaru, BMW, Nissan, Mercedes (and I can continue on). I see a lot of holes in your theory.


They didn't close their only UAW-organized plant or get close to being number one in market share.
 
2010-02-24 01:08:21 PM  

aimtastic: I believe that something really bad happened to this lady's car. I believe that she believes the story she's telling. But I also believe that the combination of panic at the time, the attention she's gotten since then, and a potential payday in the future have significantly altered the story that she believes is true.


this.
 
2010-02-24 01:08:45 PM  
I wonder if the emergency brakes on these particular cars are mechanical. I'm willing to bet they are...

//No idea if its been looked into or not, but the thought keeps coming up in my mind
 
2010-02-24 01:08:45 PM  
I can't wait for the used toyota prices to plummet so I can buy one. I'm not a pussy so I'm not afraid of my cars.
 
2010-02-24 01:09:18 PM  

alywa: Deucednuisance: See that little green light in the pic you posted? It's green because that can is in park. The rectangular button that the light is part is pushed in to shift into part. It's not a "parking brake button", that a pedal on the left.

Sounds like operator error.

You are exactly right... please re-read my post to get the point I'm making. It is extremely unintuitive... many of the stories (the CHP officer accident, in a loaner Lexus for example) are in rentals. There is no reason to make such an ass-backwards design when virtually 100% of other cars on the road have "park" in the gear selection. Same for push-button power needing a 3-second hold time to shut down with no written warning on instructions on it. All of this seems obvious if you own one, but as a renter, loaner, or new car owner it isn't.


see, the problem I have with people complaining about the push button hold requiring 5 seconds to turn off is that ITS EXACTLY LIKE THE COMPUTER YOU"RE USING RIGHT NOW.
I mean, haven't you ever had to hard shut down a computer? You hold down the power button for 5 seconds til it turns off.
 
2010-02-24 01:09:49 PM  
I would love to see cars come with a FootCam(tm) that stores the video in the car's blackbox. Then there won't be any question as to what the feet were doing...
 
2010-02-24 01:10:00 PM  
Quick question - don't all of these cars that are having these problems have the little "black box" or whatever they call the recorder? Do these recorders only record the speeds before impact, or are they always recording? What exactly do they record?
 
2010-02-24 01:11:06 PM  

Jaws_Victim: mantabulous: Eddie Adams from Torrance: God was a real dick for letting her ride 6 miles at 100 MPH before stopping her car.

You forget that it's all part of his plan. His ways are beyond your understanding.

Bullshiat! 6 miles at 100 mph? Thats 600 miles! That's TORTURE!


What kind of retard math are you doing?
 
2010-02-24 01:11:21 PM  
I don't know....

The lady sounds like she rehearsed what she said, and it's awfully hard for me to believe what she said.

I'm assuming she stands to receive some significant amount of compensation for her 'distress' and new found 'terror' that prevents her from living a normal life. Plus, some people would just do everything they can to soak up attention.

According to the internet 2.3 million cars are affected by this problem. And the problem is defined as an accelerator problem. No mention of a shifting/braking problem. Of those 2.3 million cars, only a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny percentage actually suffer from the problem. It has to do with a particular part that, with wear, in certain situations, can cause the pedal to 'stick'.

Toyota has acknowledged the problem and is doing all sorts of damage control to address the issue. It seems unlikely to me that they'd do all that, but then also, try to cover up aspects of the problem; that would almost certainly come out anyway.

Here is what Toyota recommends you do should your pedal get stuck...

• If you need to stop immediately, the vehicle can be controlled by stepping on the brake pedal with both feet using firm and steady pressure. Do not pump the brake pedal as it will deplete the vacuum utilized for the power brake assist.
• Shift the transmission gear selector to the Neutral (N) position and use the brakes to make a controlled stop at the side of the road and turn off the engine.

I don't know - it all sounds awfully fishy.

People are awfully opportunistic and awfully gullible. Plenty of people screw up while driving and if you give them a sliver of plausible deniability, they'll jump at it. Some of them might even *believe* it.
 
2010-02-24 01:11:24 PM  
The local rag here carried a headline stating "toyota deaths have surged" and the article went on to say that there were 34 deaths that MAY have been due to this problem over the last 10 years. I'm not trying to be an ass here or anything, but if these numbers are correct, how does this recall stack up against others? I remember the big Explorer recall due to tires. Were there many fatalities involved there?

Honestly, just asking.
 
2010-02-24 01:11:39 PM  
I have a hard time believing her. First, in my car this would be impossible; I suppose with a push-button ignition and a totally mechanical gear shift this might be possible but it seems unlikely. More importantly she has definitely been coached to give this speech and she's defintely given it more than once. People who really are panicked do not remember the kinds of details that she seemed very certain about. Something certainly happened but reality probably only bears passing resemblance to her story.
 
2010-02-24 01:12:01 PM  

I_C_Weener: I_C_Weener: floor9: It seems like in every thread about Toyota / Lexus, there's always a percentage of Internet Tough Guys (tm) who say "hurrr, I'd just put the car in neutral, I don't understand why everyone is so stupid".

So yeah, apparently that won't help.

I am naming the neighbor's Toyota "Carrie".

Wait. I meant "Christine". Carrie was the teenager with PMS problems. Christine was the haunted car.



I dare you to ride your bike by it and yell "Creepy Carrie! Creepy Carrie!"
 
2010-02-24 01:12:04 PM  

alywa: Deucednuisance: See that little green light in the pic you posted? It's green because that can is in park. The rectangular button that the light is part is pushed in to shift into part. It's not a "parking brake button", that a pedal on the left.

Sounds like operator error.

You are exactly right... please re-read my post to get the point I'm making. It is extremely unintuitive... many of the stories (the CHP officer accident, in a loaner Lexus for example) are in rentals. There is no reason to make such an ass-backwards design when virtually 100% of other cars on the road have "park" in the gear selection. Same for push-button power needing a 3-second hold time to shut down with no written warning on instructions on it. All of this seems obvious if you own one, but as a renter, loaner, or new car owner it isn't.


True. No one in my immediate or extended family owns a Toyota. (Why yes, I live in Michigan, how did you know?). I had never heard of such a thing before the recalls... although I've driven in a few, including a Prius. Anyway, it still seems fairly stupid to me.

That said, whenever I rent a car or drive an unfamiliar work car, I try to figure out all the weird crap about it before I take off.

But in a panic situation, who knows. I might just forget. Or I might not have had time before leaving to go over all the random crap on the car. Who knows.

But it's a good point. Why not have a little sticker or something that explains how to turn the car off?
 
2010-02-24 01:12:13 PM  

spencurai: I can't wait for the used toyota prices to plummet so I can buy one. I'm not a pussy so I'm not afraid of my cars.


So much this...I want to get my hands on one of those newer FJs...hope to see them being dumped at fire-sale prices soon.
 
2010-02-24 01:12:17 PM  

Giltric: Has there been any testimony from men in regards to their cars accelerating on their own?

Not that I don't trust women.....but they are inattentive drivers.

And $ome of them might think they ju$t $pilled hot coffee in their lap ju$t becau$e they drive a Toyota.....


Yes look into Mark Saylor, a 20 year highway patrol veteran, whose entire family was killed due to a similar incident. Witnesses claim the wheels of his car were actually on fire due to the heavy breaking he used to try and stop the car.
 
2010-02-24 01:12:38 PM  
So, she was in a Lexus that "rocketed" up to 100mph? Really? 100?

My old POS Dodge motorhome that was built somewhere around the end of the Carter administration has this funky throttle linkage. If you floor the throttle (going up a hill, for example) the carb locks wide open. This will easily push my old beater up into the 90-95mph range before I can either kick around under the dash to dislodge the linkage or shut off the ignition.

I would hope that a late model luxury sedan would have more than a 5-10mph gain on my old 440 is all I'm saying...
 
2010-02-24 01:12:41 PM  

Katie98_KT: The parking brake has a light. If the light is on you're not going anywhere, how hard is that?


Except that's not the parking brake, honey.

Watch where you're throwing them "stupids" around, now.

alywa: Not sure, but I found it all very odd. It seems like Toyota just went with different for different's sake... ie "Hey look, its a funky hybrid car with a funky transmission. Isn't that futuristic and cool!?!?!?!"


It's pretty much the same layout as an old on-the-column shifter, or frankly a center console one if you can rotate objects in mental space.

Not to be picking on you, or anything.
 
2010-02-24 01:13:20 PM  
z.about.com

Google tells me this is the interior of a 2007 Lexus ES3500. Here's a closeup of the gearshift:

img641.imageshack.us


So if putting it into Neutral didn't work, it's probably because there is a horrifically retarded computer sitting between the gearshift and the actuators in the transmission.

If they had certifications on drive-by-wire systems even a TENTH of the robustness of fly-by-wire systems on commercial airlines, I'd be happy.
=Smidge=
 
2010-02-24 01:13:32 PM  
Wow this is so scary on a personal note. In 1971, I was driving my Dad's (VERY Fast) 426 cu. in. 1969 Ford LTD on Northern State Parkway on Long Island when the gas pedal stuck in the floored poition. (Hey, I liked to pass quickly...I was a teenager).

The accelerator linkage had caught, I later found. Soon I was rocketing forward at 100 mph on a winding parkway, dodging slower moving cars, until I got near an exit in Westbury that I knew to be fairly long and straight. The brakes weren't stopping the car, so I turned off the engine, promply blowing the engine, but I was able to get the car to stop. Ford replaced the engine in warranty.

If turning off the ignition wold not have worked like it has not worked in these Toyota/Lexus incidents, I would not be here to type this.


www.dannywhitfield.com

It was a great car ... sharkskin seats and all!
 
2010-02-24 01:13:44 PM  
Brakes are for pussies.
 
2010-02-24 01:13:46 PM  

Katie98_KT: alywa: Deucednuisance: See that little green light in the pic you posted? It's green because that can is in park. The rectangular button that the light is part is pushed in to shift into part. It's not a "parking brake button", that a pedal on the left.

Sounds like operator error.

You are exactly right... please re-read my post to get the point I'm making. It is extremely unintuitive... many of the stories (the CHP officer accident, in a loaner Lexus for example) are in rentals. There is no reason to make such an ass-backwards design when virtually 100% of other cars on the road have "park" in the gear selection. Same for push-button power needing a 3-second hold time to shut down with no written warning on instructions on it. All of this seems obvious if you own one, but as a renter, loaner, or new car owner it isn't.

see, the problem I have with people complaining about the push button hold requiring 5 seconds to turn off is that ITS EXACTLY LIKE THE COMPUTER YOU"RE USING RIGHT NOW.
I mean, haven't you ever had to hard shut down a computer? You hold down the power button for 5 seconds til it turns off.


You've never worked in technical support have you?
 
2010-02-24 01:14:15 PM  

Katie98_KT: alywa: Deucednuisance: See that little green light in the pic you posted? It's green because that can is in park. The rectangular button that the light is part is pushed in to shift into part. It's not a "parking brake button", that a pedal on the left.

Sounds like operator error.

You are exactly right... please re-read my post to get the point I'm making. It is extremely unintuitive... many of the stories (the CHP officer accident, in a loaner Lexus for example) are in rentals. There is no reason to make such an ass-backwards design when virtually 100% of other cars on the road have "park" in the gear selection. Same for push-button power needing a 3-second hold time to shut down with no written warning on instructions on it. All of this seems obvious if you own one, but as a renter, loaner, or new car owner it isn't.

see, the problem I have with people complaining about the push button hold requiring 5 seconds to turn off is that ITS EXACTLY LIKE THE COMPUTER YOU"RE USING RIGHT NOW.
I mean, haven't you ever had to hard shut down a computer? You hold down the power button for 5 seconds til it turns off.


The problem is that it's a new method for turning on and off a car. For years we have been used to key based ignition. Turning the key immediately starts or stops the engine. In a panicked situation, I'm not thinking about applying methods used in various other technologies, I'm thinking about my practical knowledge of how I operate a car.

It would be like having to search for a key to shut off your computer when your boss walks in while you're watching midget porn.
 
2010-02-24 01:14:17 PM  
davidw001
The failures all involved tread separation-the tread peeling off followed often by tire disintegration. If that happened, and the vehicle was running at speed, there was a high likelihood of the vehicle leaving the road and rolling over. Many rollovers cause serious injury and even death; it has been estimated that over 250 deaths and more than 3,000 serious injuries resulted from these failures.
 
2010-02-24 01:14:29 PM  

birdistasty: Quick question - don't all of these cars that are having these problems have the little "black box" or whatever they call the recorder? Do these recorders only record the speeds before impact, or are they always recording? What exactly do they record?


Another thing that leads me to believe that she didn't crash, thus the whole "grace of God" thing that pisses people off so much.

spencurai: I can't wait for the used toyota prices to plummet so I can buy one. I'm not a pussy so I'm not afraid of my cars.


I've definitely given thought to that; they're just so boring! Well, usually anyhow.
 
2010-02-24 01:14:40 PM  
Lately, even on big trucks, there's no actual actual physical linkage to the engine. Many don't even have mechanical shifting; it's all becoming processor controlled. There are systems that control starting, and stopping the engine, to ensure a short cooling time to prolong engine component life. Every one of these systems has experiencer failures, but at least the brakes are still under driver control. DOT mandates what's allowable, so even the completely incompetent driver can stop.
With cars, alas, there are models that have eliminated all direct control from the operator, rendering him no more in charge than the back seat passenger.
 
2010-02-24 01:15:02 PM  

way south: impaler: Ingaba: hb0mb: In my car, a 2006 bmw, there is no key to turn. you put it into a slot and press a button. much like to make a phone call, you press a button on the steering wheel. I'm willing to bet the lexus is probably comprable to my car.

According to Toyota, if you press the start button and hold it for 2-5 seconds the car will turn off.

I have to go to the "start" menu in order to shut this thing down? Who designed this monstrosity!?

Its not the automakers fault if you don't know how to stop your own damn vehicle.

/Its as simple as shifting up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, brakes, accelerator, brakes, accelerator, start!
/Or crawl out on the hood and disconnect the battery cable.


LOL
 
2010-02-24 01:15:08 PM  
My Toyota is a 10-year-old Echo. An automatic (suck it, manual shift).

Cheap econobox FTW... It does have a computer, but I'm pretty sure that mostly controls the fuel system, not the brakes or accelerator.

Guess I'll hold on to it for awhile longer. Still drives pretty good. And it stops. And I'm pretty sure I could get it over 85 mph only if I were going down a long, straight hill. With no wind.
 
2010-02-24 01:15:21 PM  

nyuhsuk:
Bullshiat! 6 miles at 100 mph? Thats 600 miles! That's TORTURE!

What kind of retard math are you doing?


6 Miles times 100 mph is obviously 600 miles miles per hour. You *combine* the labels, stupid.
 
2010-02-24 01:15:21 PM  
www.aitcs.com.au
 
2010-02-24 01:15:46 PM  

Deucednuisance: Sounds like operator error.


Just like all the typos in that post. Yikes.

/Management regrets the error.
 
2010-02-24 01:16:14 PM  

GoodOmens: darcsun: Story of hers is complete bunk. Throwing a car into reverse at that speed will gernade the transmission, at best. At worst, a RWD car could flip if the driveshaft came loose and pole vaulted the car. Here is a video of a guy racing his mustang and accidentally putting the car in reverse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNLz9E92-FU

With a electronic transmission the car won't let you put it in reverse, software in the ecu protects the car from this occurring. You can try physically, but nothing will happen.


From the Lexus website: (new window)Six-speed paddle-shift sequential automatic Electronically Controlled Transmission with intelligence

heh.. intelligence huh?
 
2010-02-24 01:16:22 PM  

Deucednuisance: Except that's not the parking brake, honey.

Watch where you're throwing them "stupids" around, now


yes, it is. the button above the gear shift with the giant P on it, is a parking brake.
 
2010-02-24 01:16:33 PM  
Prank Call of Cthulhu: Actually, now that I think about, maybe the reason it took so long was that god had to shove his feet through the floorboard and stop the thing Flintstone's style.

One night I dreamed I was driving along the beach with the Lord.
Many scenes from my life flashed across the sky.
In each scene I noticed skidmarks in the sand.
Sometimes there were two sets of skidmarks,
other times there was one only.
This bothered me because I noticed that during the low periods of my life,
when I was suffering from anguish,
sorrow or defeat,
I could see only one set of skidmarks ,
so I said to the Lord,
You promised me Lord,
that if I followed you,
you would walk with me always.
But I have noticed that during the most trying periods of my life
there has only been one set of skidmarks in the sand.
Why, when I needed you most, have you not been there for me?
The Lord replied,
The years when you have seen only one set of skidmarks,
my child, is when I shoved my feet through the floorboard flinstone's style.
 
2010-02-24 01:16:36 PM  

Tony_Pepperoni: Like I say in all these car threads...
Emergency Kill Switch.


Problem solved.


Not that simple. You want to maintain power to the brakes and steering so you don't want the engine to die. You need an emergency neutral/engine idle. Something like that.
 
2010-02-24 01:16:47 PM  

CrowdSceneExtra: Toyota's electronic throttle system does not have a brake override. If the accelerator and brake are both pressed, the car will rev the engine and apply the brakes.


The only reason I can think they went that route, is that they're afraid of accidental deceleration. But given the choice between accidental deceleration, and accidental acceleration, it should be a no brainer to choose deceleration.
 
2010-02-24 01:16:54 PM  

bongmiester: Fearing death, she called husband.

driving 100mph in an out of control vehicle she searches for her cell phone and calls her husband. i'm surprised none of the congressmen jumped on this.


They didn't cause they want to believe her, easier to go after that darn greedy corporation.
 
2010-02-24 01:16:55 PM  

alywa: There is no reason to make such an ass-backwards design when virtually 100% of other cars on the road have "park" in the gear selection. Same for push-button power needing a 3-second hold time to shut down with no written warning on instructions on it. All of this seems obvious if you own one, but as a renter, loaner, or new car owner it isn't.


This does bring up an excellent point, though:

DO NOT OPERATE AN UNFAMILIAR VEHICLE UNTIL YOU'VE TAKEN THE TIME TO UNDERSTAND THE CONTROLS!

The first thing I do whenever I get a rental car is make sure I know how to operate the lights and high beams, the wipers and washer fluid sprayers, the parking brake, cruise control, air conditioner, defrosters, and the emergency hazard lights. And if any of those controls aren't immediately obvious, I grab the manual and look it up. Because there is absolutely zero standardization of any of those controls on cars. And now that shifters and ignitions are getting all kinds of crazy customization, just add those to the list.

It is unconscionable that anyone would take control of a one-ton potential killing machine without taking at least five minutes to figure out the basics of how to operate it.
 
2010-02-24 01:17:05 PM  

theoriginalslash: My Toyota is a 10-year-old Echo. An automatic (suck it, manual shift).


Dude that sucks. An okay commuter car with a manual (my wife had an '00 coupe) but I can't imagine the lack of "go" with a slushbox.

"With no wind." No f*cking sh*t... those cars can make it home on sail power if needed. Not fun on windy days.
 
2010-02-24 01:17:56 PM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: I don't know....

The lady sounds like she rehearsed what she said


Really? Someone testifying before congress on T.V. may have rehearsed their speech? Thank God you caught that!
 
2010-02-24 01:17:58 PM  

Tony_Pepperoni: Like I say in all these car threads...
Emergency Kill Switch.


Problem solved.


Problem with that is that if the kill switch is to the computer, that will also knock out the power steering, power brakes (anti-lock, etc), and electronic stability control which would make the vehicle difficult to drive. Lose/lose situation.
 
2010-02-24 01:18:01 PM  

You do not have privilges to
apply the brake command.
Please contact your system administrator.

 
2010-02-24 01:18:05 PM  

nyuhsuk: Jaws_Victim: mantabulous: Eddie Adams from Torrance: God was a real dick for letting her ride 6 miles at 100 MPH before stopping her car.

You forget that it's all part of his plan. His ways are beyond your understanding.

Bullshiat! 6 miles at 100 mph? Thats 600 miles! That's TORTURE!

What kind of retard math are you doing?


Welcome to Fark, you will get used to our new math.
 
2010-02-24 01:18:23 PM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: I don't know....

The lady sounds like she rehearsed what she said, and it's awfully hard for me to believe what she said.

I'm assuming she stands to receive some significant amount of compensation for her 'distress' and new found 'terror' that prevents her from living a normal life. Plus, some people would just do everything they can to soak up attention.

According to the internet 2.3 million cars are affected by this problem. And the problem is defined as an accelerator problem. No mention of a shifting/braking problem. Of those 2.3 million cars, only a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny percentage actually suffer from the problem. It has to do with a particular part that, with wear, in certain situations, can cause the pedal to 'stick'.

Toyota has acknowledged the problem and is doing all sorts of damage control to address the issue. It seems unlikely to me that they'd do all that, but then also, try to cover up aspects of the problem; that would almost certainly come out anyway.

Here is what Toyota recommends you do should your pedal get stuck...

• If you need to stop immediately, the vehicle can be controlled by stepping on the brake pedal with both feet using firm and steady pressure. Do not pump the brake pedal as it will deplete the vacuum utilized for the power brake assist.
• Shift the transmission gear selector to the Neutral (N) position and use the brakes to make a controlled stop at the side of the road and turn off the engine.

I don't know - it all sounds awfully fishy.

People are awfully opportunistic and awfully gullible. Plenty of people screw up while driving and if you give them a sliver of plausible deniability, they'll jump at it. Some of them might even *believe* it.


1) When you go before a hearing of any kind you will be coached. That is how it works from municipal court to the supreme court and a congressional hearing.

2) The word yesterday from the hearing was that the floor mat and pedal recall would fix "most" of the issues. "Most" doesn't cover everything, indicating there is more to it.
 
2010-02-24 01:18:30 PM