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(The Consumerist)   If you think turning off the ignition, standing on the brakes, or putting the car in neutral will stop your out-of-control Toyota or Lexus, boy are you in for an amusing twist   (consumerist.com) divider line 724
    More: Scary, Lexus, Toyota, mats, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, maximum speed, guard rail, tow trucks, overrides  
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45025 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Feb 2010 at 12:21 PM (4 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-02-24 07:33:02 PM  
images3.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2010-02-24 07:33:54 PM  
Katie98_KT: Deucednuisance: Except that's not the parking brake, honey.

Watch where you're throwing them "stupids" around, now

yes, it is. the button above the gear shift with the giant P on it, is a parking brake.


Do everyone a favor and STEP AWAY FROM THE VEHICLE, and destroy your driver's license.

You are a detriment to anyone else that may have the unfortunate luck to be in front of your vehicle, YOU IDIOT.
 
2010-02-24 07:39:45 PM  
GoodOmens: Reminds me of the SAM missile defense systems the US used to protect Kuwait from Saddam's chemical attacks. Turns out they had a rounding error and after several hours of continued use they could no longer track incoming missiles.

This was only discovered after an attack killed several American soldiers manning a station - the temporary fix was to reboot the computers until a more permanent software fix was found.

Unfortunately you can't really reboot your car ;-)


Nah, it was worse than that. What it really had was a routine doing it's own timekeeping rather than relying on the system clock. This is unforgivable (and I speak as a developer), especially since they did it wrong. The two clocks didn't tick at exactly the same rate and over time they would drift farther and farther apart.

The missile battery would attempt to compute whether the target was within it's envelope. It's not a simple matter of range--you could legitimately fire a Patriot at a target that was beyond range but rapidly heading for you, but likewise you wouldn't fire one at a target that was still within range but was running away and would get away before the missile got there. Unfortunately, this routine relied on the flawed clock and thus the effect was it was trying to fire the missile through time. When the discrepancy became too great it couldn't compute an intercept and would refuse to fire a missile at a target that couldn't be hit.

ZAZ: GoodOmens

The Patriot missile system was supposed to be fleeing across Europe one step ahead of the Soviet hordes, not parked in one place for days. The system met its original spec.


And no rear base would have one set up??
 
2010-02-24 07:46:18 PM  
Cymbaline: Also keep in mind Toyota is still saying they don't have drive-by-wire, which throws the concept of individual engine management, trans management, and brake management into doubt.

*blink*... *blink*...

They are currently replacing millions of electronic brake pedals. That is by definition a drive by wire vehicle.

hyperflame: Calling bullshiat on this.

1. She went 6 miles and didn't think to hold down the Start/On/whatever button for 3 or 5 seconds (whatever the time length is)? She didn't think to grind the car against the concrete dividers?

2. This is only one data point. If what she said was true, there should be tens of thousands, perhaps even hundreds of thousands of incidents so far. There are maybe 2,000 incidents so far. And most of those will probably boil down to "Granny hit the wrong pedal".


1. Concrete freeway barriers are specifically designed to bounce a car off of them. You would have a hard time grinding a car along one intentionally. They are flared at the base for a reason.

2. That is the point. There very well may be 10's of thousands of cars out there with the potential defect. Some have shown and others have yet to pop up. No one is saying ALL of their cars bad. Just like in a plane crash, it takes a number of small errors put together to create the big one. They just don't know what it is yet.

I will concede, some will boil down to granny hitting the wrong pedal. I don't think this one is the case though.
 
2010-02-24 07:48:36 PM  
tbernot: brake

ARGH! GAS PEDAL!
 
2010-02-24 07:59:43 PM  
JustGetItRight: Smidge204: rigamrts: i've got a problem with the whole battery kill switch idea. the altenator is what runs the car the battery only starts it. so you'd have to put a kill switch on both to kill all power to the car while started. cause even if you kill just the altenator you've got 30 miles of reserve in the battery till that's dead.

False. The battery is an integral part of the charging system. If you remove the battery you break the circuit and the alternator loses its excitation field, shutting it down.
=Smidge=

Do you work at an O'Reilly's auto store? That's what the guy who tried to rip off my mother in law said too.

Told her the battery was fine, her alternator was bad. She called me, I jumped the car off in the parking lot and called him back outside - whereupon I removed both battery cables and asked him to explain how the car was still running. He called me asshole. I laughed and went across the street and bought a new battery at Autozone.

/2001 Tracker, your mileage may vary.
//I know, cool story bro.


I'm an idiot about cars, but... Why did you buy a new battery if the battery wasn't the problem? Perhaps you are an asshole?
 
2010-02-24 08:00:24 PM  
wiregeek: wotnartd: I know I'm now posting in no-man's land, but I have a simple, simple question for whomever reads this:

Why did the car stop accelerating at 100 mph?

Because that car went beep beep beep


yeaah!
 
2010-02-24 08:06:18 PM  
I'm not even going to bother reading the rest of the thread, and I am sure somebody else has already pointed it out, but to all of you STUPID FARKING MORONS who keep saying "durrr hurrr there is no way she could have pulled her cellphone out..." go back and RTFA. Her car was equipped with a bluetooth device. A lot of them are VOICE ACTIVATED!!!! Even my Dodge built pickup truck has one. My GOD you people are full of stupid.
 
2010-02-24 08:13:03 PM  
TheyCallThisWork: Smidge204: Google tells me this is the interior of a 2007 Lexus ES3500. Here's a closeup of the gearshift:

I think that picture answers the question completely. She put the beast in tip-tronic mode and kept shifting up thinking she was putting it in neutral.


Makes sense to me.

Why an unqualified dumbass gets to speak before Congress like her testimony matters... I don't even know who invited her but it smacks of the worst kind of Congressional grandstanding and theater.
 
2010-02-24 08:16:23 PM  
ihatedumbpeople: Incident happened in 2006? I wonder when...our AllData system doesn't show the ES350 model was available until the '07 model year.

Because, DUMBASS, model years are introduced in the middle of the previous calender year.

EXAMPLE (like, such as):

A 2010 model year (insert brand here) will start rolling off the line around July-August of 2009. If the vehicle does not roll off the line until December of 2009, the vehicle will be designated a 2010 1/2 model year.
 
2010-02-24 08:22:48 PM  
Odd The Viking: I'm not even going to bother reading the rest of the thread, and I am sure somebody else has already pointed it out, but to all of you STUPID FARKING MORONS who keep saying "durrr hurrr there is no way she could have pulled her cellphone out..." go back and RTFA. Her car was equipped with a bluetooth device. A lot of them are VOICE ACTIVATED!!!! Even my Dodge built pickup truck has one. My GOD you people are full of stupid.
 
2010-02-24 08:38:58 PM  
Smidge204


Wrong wrong wrong. If you look at your diagrams, neither of those circuits require the battery in them to remain closed. There are no less than 3 references to ground in each circuit. Your battery is nothing more than a large capacitor.

Also, if your hypothesis were correct, when you add larger amplifiers, radios, bigger cooling fan and electrical accessories to your car, you would have to add a larger battery instead of a larger alternator.

Batteries do no more than provide starting voltage and amperage for your vehicle. Your alternator provides operational voltage plus a small charge voltage for your battery.

If your battery were required to run the car, then when you have a bad battery, why doesn't the car shut down while you're driving it?

It doesn't.

Also this is pretty freaking amazing. (new window)

Also, this is a pretty cool answer. (new window)
 
2010-02-24 08:44:04 PM  
Oh BARF.

Overblown outrage is overblown. My Toyota experience has been overwhelmingly positive. I've owned some, and they've been better than excellent. Better than the media outrage/attention.

(Apologies to those mortally affected).

It happens more than you know.

Welcome to modern age degradation of quality.

Welcome to less-than.

Welcome to the modern global economy. Welcome to corporations enjoying the same existence as people. Welcome to hunh?

We made this.
 
2010-02-24 08:48:02 PM  
Wow. Lefty Government Motors is really out to bash Toyota. You'd think Sarah Palin owned it or something.
 
2010-02-24 09:05:07 PM  
GAT_00: Because if people did that, they'd think it through and stop believing in God. I always have to stop myself from strangling someone when they say something like that.

This is twice that I agree with you. I must be slipping
 
2010-02-24 09:08:17 PM  
Beer It's What's For Dinner: Can you explain this please? I'm baffled why one would want such a feature. Thanks.

If you have a b-pillar, this isn't a feature. If the car lacks a b-pillar, then closing the door presents pressure on the window as the door closes. Since it's not braced by a pillar, it results in excessive wear on the mechanism that brings the window up and down. Eventually, the mechanism loosens, and you have to replace all the guts inside of the door.

Trust me - my car has no b-pillar, and no feature that alleviates pressure when closing the door. In the 3 years I've owned it (since new), there is a good deal more play with the window perpendicular to the door. If I had something to measure wind/road noise at speed, I'd prolly be able to show you the difference.
 
2010-02-24 09:16:43 PM  
Indubitably: Oh BARF.

Overblown outrage is overblown. My Toyota experience has been overwhelmingly positive. I've owned some, and they've been better than excellent. Better than the media outrage/attention.

(Apologies to those mortally affected).

It happens more than you know.

Welcome to modern age degradation of quality.

Welcome to less-than.

Welcome to the modern global economy. Welcome to corporations enjoying the same existence as people. Welcome to hunh?

We made this.


P.S. This is why I ALWAYS buy a manual transmission; sure, it requires a brain and functioning limb(s) to operate, BUT it's easy to fix, and it ensures i CAN DISENGAGE the gear if necessary...(short of a clutch failing at the same time, but I find that highly (HIGHLY) unlikely...)

;)
 
2010-02-24 09:19:33 PM  
Is there some reason why her testimony could not be written in the PAST TENSE, since that is when the incident occurred... in the PAST? It hurt to read.
 
2010-02-24 09:23:41 PM  
Babwa Wawa If I had something to measure wind/road noise at speed,


Here ya go buddy: Link (new window)
 
2010-02-24 09:26:07 PM  
www.automedia.com

My ride. Probably the only model manufactured exclusively in Japan that did not make the recall.

Let's tone it down a bit on our attacks on the Japanese. The more we attack Toyota, the more we attack our American manufacturers as all the affected models were manufactured here in the USA. I say let the victims get compensated without fanfare and give ourselves another chance to correct the problems at Toyota. It's just not time to get on the 'bomb the Japanese' band wagon because we start looking like real hypocrits: many Ford and Chevy lines are manufactured outside the US these days.

Toyotas are still far safer then smoking, fast food and obesity.
 
2010-02-24 09:27:54 PM  
Constance Velocity: Is there some reason why her testimony could not be written in the PAST TENSE, since that is when the incident occurred... in the PAST? It hurt to read.

Yeah, drama much?
 
2010-02-24 09:29:57 PM  
Indubitably: Constance Velocity: Is there some reason why her testimony could not be written in the PAST TENSE, since that is when the incident occurred... in the PAST? It hurt to read.

Yeah, drama much?


Oh, wait, that was the point...
 
2010-02-24 09:31:25 PM  
RockIsDead:
"Wow. Lefty Government Motors is really out to bash Toyota. You'd think Sarah Palin owned it or something."

Actually, Barack Obama (pops). But you were close.
 
2010-02-24 09:35:28 PM  
Indubitably: Indubitably: Constance Velocity: Is there some reason why her testimony could not be written in the PAST TENSE, since that is when the incident occurred... in the PAST? It hurt to read.

Yeah, drama much?

Oh, wait, that was the point...


Ya know, please forgive my rampant commenting, but, I found the Lexus-owning cry-bag less than convincing. Yeah, she called her husband to hear his voice for the last time and invoke the invisible sky-wizard, BUT other people actually died in a fiery crash...

I found the media's-drama to be off-putting in light of the facts...

Let's show respect, but be intelligent too, no?
 
2010-02-24 09:37:28 PM  
sseye: JustGetItRight: Smidge204: rigamrts: i've got a problem with the whole battery kill switch idea. the altenator is what runs the car the battery only starts it. so you'd have to put a kill switch on both to kill all power to the car while started. cause even if you kill just the altenator you've got 30 miles of reserve in the battery till that's dead.

False. The battery is an integral part of the charging system. If you remove the battery you break the circuit and the alternator loses its excitation field, shutting it down.
=Smidge=

Do you work at an O'Reilly's auto store? That's what the guy who tried to rip off my mother in law said too.

Told her the battery was fine, her alternator was bad. She called me, I jumped the car off in the parking lot and called him back outside - whereupon I removed both battery cables and asked him to explain how the car was still running. He called me asshole. I laughed and went across the street and bought a new battery at Autozone.

/2001 Tracker, your mileage may vary.
//I know, cool story bro.

I'm an idiot about cars, but... Why did you buy a new battery if the battery wasn't the problem? Perhaps you are an asshole?


The battery WAS the problem. The dickhead at the parts store was trying to sell her a $200 alternator in addition to the $75 battery that she actually needed.
 
2010-02-24 09:44:49 PM  
Clown Car on Fire It IS time to get on the 'bomb the Japanese' band wagon
/FTFY

So you plan on bombing Georgetown Kentucky with that thing?
 
2010-02-24 09:50:09 PM  
Indubitably: Indubitably: Indubitably: Constance Velocity: Is there some reason why her testimony could not be written in the PAST TENSE, since that is when the incident occurred... in the PAST? It hurt to read.

Yeah, drama much?

Oh, wait, that was the point...

Ya know, please forgive my rampant commenting, but, I found the Lexus-owning cry-bag less than convincing. Yeah, she called her husband to hear his voice for the last time and invoke the invisible sky-wizard, BUT other people actually died in a fiery crash...

I found the media's-drama to be off-putting in light of the facts...

Let's show respect, but be intelligent too, no?


Oh wait, that was the Senate. Or was it the House?

Yeah, a committee hearing...

Theatre.

I know theater.

Saw it.

See it every day it's recorded.

Let's start being honest with folks; I suspect they can handle it.

Let's start with being honest in America, and we'll go from there...

People are resilient.

People like truth and know it.

Quit lying.

We'll be better for it.

America'll be better for it.

Peace.
 
2010-02-24 09:52:28 PM  
clowncar on fire So you plan on bombing Georgetown Kentucky with that thing?


Well, what if some parts of Kentucky need teh bombin?
 
2010-02-24 10:02:49 PM  
Indubitably: Indubitably: Indubitably: Indubitably: Constance Velocity: Is there some reason why her testimony could not be written in the PAST TENSE, since that is when the incident occurred... in the PAST? It hurt to read.

Yeah, drama much?

Oh, wait, that was the point...

Ya know, please forgive my rampant commenting, but, I found the Lexus-owning cry-bag less than convincing. Yeah, she called her husband to hear his voice for the last time and invoke the invisible sky-wizard, BUT other people actually died in a fiery crash...

I found the media's-drama to be off-putting in light of the facts...

Let's show respect, but be intelligent too, no?

Oh wait, that was the Senate. Or was it the House?

Yeah, a committee hearing...

Theatre.

I know theater.

Saw it.

See it every day it's recorded.

Let's start being honest with folks; I suspect they can handle it.

Let's start with being honest in America, and we'll go from there...

People are resilient.

People like truth and know it.

Quit lying.

We'll be better for it.

America'll be better for it.

Peace.


Thread-jack, sort of, apologies, but honesty works...

;)
 
2010-02-24 10:08:33 PM  
Odd The Viking: I'm not even going to bother reading the rest of the thread, and I am sure somebody else has already pointed it out, but to all of you STUPID FARKING MORONS who keep saying "durrr hurrr there is no way she could have pulled her cellphone out..." go back and RTFA. Her car was equipped with a bluetooth device. A lot of them are VOICE ACTIVATED!!!! Even my Dodge built pickup truck has one. My GOD you people are full of stupid.

I hear you, bro. Have you forgotten that most of the folks on here are either drunk or under the influence of illegal sustances?
Then there's also the (young) ones still living with their parents. Then, there may be some percent who have a rather lower IQ.

/let's not forget the trolls who just like to start stuff with other people
//it's for sure the smart Farkers are not posting all the stupid stuff
 
2010-02-24 10:13:38 PM  
clowncar on fire: The more we attack Toyota, the more we attack our American manufacturers as all the affected models were manufactured here in the USA.

Nobody is asserting that any possible causes of the problems are due to manufacturing deficiencies. These are exclusively design problems - not like the alleged problems on assembly lines of Firestone a few years ago. These could have been manufactured on Mars and had the same problems. It's up to the manufacturer to put in the fail-safes (new window) that have been available in other manufacturers' cars for a decade.

As far as I can tell, the cause is due to groupthink, hubris, and overly vertical management. Absolutely nothing to do with where the vehicles were assembled...
 
2010-02-24 10:15:30 PM  
Our Congress has no respect, and deserves none after that pony show.

/pissed and embarrassed
 
2010-02-24 10:19:23 PM  
LiteWerk: Odd The Viking: I'm not even going to bother reading the rest of the thread, and I am sure somebody else has already pointed it out, but to all of you STUPID FARKING MORONS who keep saying "durrr hurrr there is no way she could have pulled her cellphone out..." go back and RTFA. Her car was equipped with a bluetooth device. A lot of them are VOICE ACTIVATED!!!! Even my Dodge built pickup truck has one. My GOD you people are full of stupid.

I hear you, bro. Have you forgotten that most of the folks on here are either drunk or under the influence of illegal sustances?
Then there's also the (young) ones still living with their parents. Then, there may be some percent who have a rather lower IQ.

/let's not forget the trolls who just like to start stuff with other people
//it's for sure the smart Farkers are not posting all the stupid stuff


I'm +7 and -7 at the same time...

Am I stupid, then?

;)
 
2010-02-24 10:21:13 PM  
Babwa Wawa: clowncar on fire: The more we attack Toyota, the more we attack our American manufacturers as all the affected models were manufactured here in the USA.

Nobody is asserting that any possible causes of the problems are due to manufacturing deficiencies. These are exclusively design problems - not like the alleged problems on assembly lines of Firestone a few years ago. These could have been manufactured on Mars and had the same problems. It's up to the manufacturer to put in the fail-safes (new window) that have been available in other manufacturers' cars for a decade.

As far as I can tell, the cause is due to groupthink, hubris, and overly vertical management. Absolutely nothing to do with where the vehicles were assembled...


Its not a manufacturing problem, it's an engineering problem and that is also done in the US. Toyota is basically three different companies in North America. There is sales, engineering, and manufacturing. Engineering and manufacturing are more closely integrated, but they still have separate chains of command.

/yes, I'm getting a kick etc...
 
2010-02-24 10:33:26 PM  
tbernot: tbernot: brake

ARGH! GAS PEDAL!


Q.E.D.
 
2010-02-24 10:55:52 PM  
Whoever or Whomever decided that lying was a solid strategy was a social-smoother, and while I respect the intent, the fact is, truth works...

Truth works.

Try it once.

See how it feels.

It feels right, right?

Yeah, truth works.

Peace.

;)
 
2010-02-24 10:58:05 PM  
Kar98: tbernot: tbernot: brake

ARGH! GAS PEDAL!

Q.E.D.


What does Sam Waterson have to do with anything?

i181.photobucket.com
 
2010-02-24 11:06:50 PM  
JustGetItRight: The battery WAS the problem. The dickhead at the parts store was trying to sell her a $200 alternator in addition to the $75 battery that she actually needed.

Oh, got it. By disconnecting the battery, you showed the alternator was fine, because o/w there would be no baseline electric flow to keep things running. I'll remember that one.

So kudos to you. They hate it when you prove them to be bullshiatting. Clear tests are great for that.

As a programmer, I have a pretty good insight into how people of mediocre knowledge use their slight knowledge to lie and cheat and steal.
 
2010-02-24 11:14:25 PM  
Indubitably:


Jumping Jesus Christ dude!?!

What the fark is wrong with you?

First off. Everything you have said is idiotic.

Secondly. STOP QUOTING YOURSELF! At one point you had quoted yourself four times!

I think I hate you now.
 
2010-02-24 11:18:41 PM  
Did I miss the BlondeStar jokes? (new window)
 
2010-02-24 11:21:06 PM  
SMOIT!: Indubitably:


Jumping Jesus Christ dude!?!

What the fark is wrong with you?

First off. Everything you have said is idiotic.

Secondly. STOP QUOTING YOURSELF! At one point you had quoted yourself four times!

I think I hate you now.


Hate?

Really?

Wow, yer fragile. Apologies.
 
2010-02-24 11:24:34 PM  
Indubitably: SMOIT!: Indubitably:


Jumping Jesus Christ dude!?!

What the fark is wrong with you?

First off. Everything you have said is idiotic.

Secondly. STOP QUOTING YOURSELF! At one point you had quoted yourself four times!

I think I hate you now.

Hate?

Really?

Wow, yer fragile. Apologies.


GTFO.
 
2010-02-24 11:26:09 PM  
homeoftheblues: Indubitably: SMOIT!: Indubitably:


Jumping Jesus Christ dude!?!

What the fark is wrong with you?

First off. Everything you have said is idiotic.

Secondly. STOP QUOTING YOURSELF! At one point you had quoted yourself four times!

I think I hate you now.

Hate?

Really?

Wow, yer fragile. Apologies.

GTFO.


K,

Bye.
 
2010-02-24 11:41:08 PM  
Drive the autobahn to work daily. Traffic flow is 100MPH. Man up, biatch. make toyota give her a car. Forbid her from operating it. Win/win.
 
2010-02-24 11:58:35 PM  
It's called a poem.

Cyber-poem, really.

I don't suspect you understand, and I don't either...

Hi, I write on FARK, sometimes.

You got a problem with that, douchebag?

Publishing for all-time, sort of...

Cyberly.

In a moment.

Irrespective of yer perspective, biatch.

Peace.

;)
 
2010-02-25 12:05:15 AM  
They did however make a note that the car's radio was still operating.

Well thank God for that.
 
2010-02-25 12:36:25 AM  
This thread is hilarious.

The amount of people that dunno a thing about how modern vehicles work, posting as if they're experts is astounding.

People posting that they're a mechanic and then trying to explain why the story is bullshiat is the worst.
Who farking cares if you're a mechanic. How does your knowledge of having worked on certain vehicles apply to this specific one? Stating that you're a mechanic doesn't mean shiat. Modern cars can get pretty complicated mechanically and electronically, and most reputable mechanics have to research each new car they work on before they fix it. A lot of mechanics don't even have the tools or diagnostic equipment to work on many newer vehicles, especially the higher end ones with all kinds of computerized components.
My dad has been a mechanic for 30 years, and he'll admit that a lot of the newer vehicles leave him stumped and he often has to send people to the dealership (not like he WANTS to do this, he loses out on the money he'd make fixing them, plus he hates people having to pay the ridiculous prices the dealerships charge, but he's not gonna fark with a car that he doesn't have the tools and knowledge to fix).
Some of you scare me. I can just imagine you telling your customers (assuming your an actual employed mechanic) all kinds of bullshiat about their cars and trying to fix shiat you don't even understand. You can actually fark up some vehicles pretty bad doing some of the stuff you people are suggesting.

WTF@the conversation about cars dying when you unhook the battery. uh, NO. This is not true of MOST newer vehicles. We have an 06 Mercury Grand Marquis that had a dying alternator (was not sending the constant correct voltage, so lights would dim and rpms would act funny while going down the highway. Periodically the engine would die, but not always.).The way we knew the alternator was bad is by having it tested and they determined it wasn't putting out the correct voltage at all times. Unhooking one of the battery cables to see if it dies does to test the alternator does NOT work on newer cars. You can unhook both battery cables and the alternator will still power the car, even with a bad alternator. The only way it would die in this case is if the alternator is completely shot and isn't sending any power to the engine.

This is coming from someone that only has a vague knowledge of newer vehicles and I STILL apparently know more than some of you so called experts. You guys should just admit you dunno wtf you're talking about and stop posting, because you look like morons to anyone that knows even a little bit about modern vehicles and you're giving misinformation to people that don't know any better.

/now knows not to get ANY automotive advice from fark (not that I'd get my information from random messageboards anyway)
//friggin idiots. hopefully you're only farking up your own cars and not other people's.
 
2010-02-25 12:40:20 AM  
Indubitably: tl;dr

Learn to quote.

Why the fark do you need to copy in your own login 4-5 times?

Ego issues?

GTFO
 
2010-02-25 12:43:23 AM  
Sorry, I meant the car wouldn't die at idle.

Unhooking battery cables isn't a good way to test an alternator either way. It can be putting out different voltages intermittently when it's going bad and the car may not die.
In our case, we didn't realize it was probably the alternator until the voltage was dropping pretty consistently.

I hate making quick undetailed posts, but I don't feel like putting a whole lot of time into this thread.
 
2010-02-25 12:44:57 AM  
Ihaveanevilparrot: Derp.

Who are you referring to, precisely?

Examples or Citations?

You just wanted to threadshiat? Got it.

/Some of us actually build, maintain and race our vehicles.
 
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