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(Deadspin)   MBA student emails professor to complain about lateness policy. Win ensues   (deadspin.com) divider line 617
    More: Amusing, MBA, critical thinking, immorality, founders, David Mamet, NYU, board of directors, students  
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53900 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Feb 2010 at 3:15 PM (4 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-02-23 06:15:43 PM  
cryinoutloud: MBA: Mediocre but arrogant.

Is that in here? christ, I don't have all day to read the farking thread.


Hmmmm....
[Ctrl + F mediocre but arrogant]
[find next]

Nope, you called it first!
 
2010-02-23 06:16:27 PM  
jst3p: Sometimes, but I work in IT.

I don't wear pajamas to a business meeting but college chicks get away with it in class.


College girls are some of the most vain, attention whorish creatures on the plant.

I must assume that 'Pajamas' in this case really means 'Lingerie'.

/pics, please
 
2010-02-23 06:17:20 PM  
My personal feelings have always been that if it is a large theater style class people should feel free to come and go as they please (within reason), while in smaller participation classes people need to show up on time and stay in their seats until the class is over.

Normally grad school classes are of the latter variety, but considering he is an MBA student who the fark knows what the class size was like.
 
2010-02-23 06:19:04 PM  
lennavan: Wait you started with:

Head_Shot: I have told off professors loudly in class before, including one I told to fark right off. They get off on the authority and are absolutely stymied when it blows up in their faces. Priceless.

And it suddenly went to:

Head_Shot: Well, seeing as how you know NOTHING about the context of the situation that occurred with me, it seems you are acting the ITG here. And why would I tell the Dean to fark off if it was you who was the one molesting students?

You didn't feel that was a necessary detail to bring up in the Boobies? You know such as "I have told off professors who molest their students loudly in class before, including one I told to fark right off." That was pretty irresponsible of you Head_Shot, seems like baiting to me.


Well, there were two incidents, admittedly I didn't go into much detail right off the bat...and since DLZ was picking the "fark off" one, I thought I'd slip in more detail to accent the fact that he knew nothing about the context of the situation. It's almost as if he thinks there can be no bad teachers, and that I'm just a troublemaker. Which I am. But I took school pretty seriously.

Or, you may be right. It could just be a setup. I HAVE been known to do that on occasion. It keeps you on your toes.
 
2010-02-23 06:21:32 PM  
Obscure Login: Hmmm, let's see.

On one hand you have a douchebag student who is all about himself and takes himself way too seriously (signature including MBA 2010 Candidate, NYU Stern School of Business). On the other hand you have a douchebag professor who is all about himself and takes himself way too seriously (long winded, unnecessary reply to stroke his own ego).

I'm going with option C) Both DIAF.



That's pretty much a good take on MBA programs in general. If only Massengill could bottle b-school faculty and graduates....
 
2010-02-23 06:24:04 PM  
ThreeEdgedSword 2010-02-23 06:06:25 PM
Wulfman: Tabemaju: An adult doesn't burst into class an hour late...

Again with the presumption of bursting. WTF?

HAI GUYZ! IS THIS BUSINESS MARKETING!?


May need a new keyboard.
 
2010-02-23 06:24:29 PM  
BleedPinstripes: My personal feelings have always been that if it is a large theater style class people should feel free to come and go as they please (within reason), while in smaller participation classes people need to show up on time and stay in their seats until the class is over.


If the door is in the back, cut them some slack.
 
2010-02-23 06:26:54 PM  
Wulfman: BleedPinstripes: My personal feelings have always been that if it is a large theater style class people should feel free to come and go as they please (within reason), while in smaller participation classes people need to show up on time and stay in their seats until the class is over.


If the door is in the back, cut them some slack.


If the door is in the front, kick them in the .... shins. Or something.
 
rp.
2010-02-23 06:31:30 PM  
Moderate pwnage. No win.
 
2010-02-23 06:34:57 PM  
elev8meL8r: If the door is in the front, kick them in the .... shins. Or something.


I could only come up with one word to rhyme with "front", too.

/If the door is on the side, let them slide...
//was always lenient on attendance when teaching college students.
 
2010-02-23 06:35:57 PM  
Sounds to me like this student's sampling strategy absolutely worked out in his favor.....he just avoided weeks of dealing with a self-important professor.
 
2010-02-23 06:37:38 PM  
I'd also like to add that "brand management" is pseudo-science bullshiate to the highest degree.
 
2010-02-23 06:40:54 PM  
sboyle1020:

3. In my MBA program it was quite common for people to show up an hour late. A good program knows 95% of the students are going part time and working full time, and give lots of flexibility. We're not clueless undergrad freshman, we're adults with responsibilities. Any lateness policy in an MBA program is just emboosing.



that's because you went to a shiatty MBA program
 
2010-02-23 06:58:25 PM  
Bathia_Mapes: IMHO I would think most professors, even if you weren't personally aware of their late-to-class policies, would object to you arriving an hour late. Or for that matter, attending a class for 15-20 minutes and leaving while the professor is still teaching.

It's not bad manners to stand up and leave as quietly as possible, on the first day, once you realize you're in the wrong class. I've seen one or two people do it in most of my classes, and done it once myself (course was much lower level than I thought, walked around campus looking for the advanced level and arrived 30 minutes late). Better that than waste everyone's time, and professors seem to be very forgiving as long as you say "Sorry, I signed up for the wrong class".
 
2010-02-23 07:07:22 PM  
FTFA: Getting a good job, working long hours, keeping your skills relevant, navigating the politics of an organization, finding a live/work balance...these are all really hard, xxxx.


Maybe for a college professor... friggin' n00bs



i46.photobucket.com

/some really good
//most are morons
///also, who said we want a job? (i guess that may be implied by being in college since that is what they teach you the theory behind)
 
2010-02-23 07:12:25 PM  
I like this comment the best Imagining this as voiced by Scrubs' Dr. Perry Cox only makes it better.
 
2010-02-23 07:13:25 PM  
[internet tough-guy]
I would love to enroll in this douche's class. If I payed for the class, and I am not disrupting other paying members, I would give him what-for in front of the entire class. This knob, who apparently knows about business, needs to learn who is paying his salary.
[/internet tough-guy]
 
2010-02-23 07:16:07 PM  
sboyle1020: In my MBA program it was quite common for people to show up an hour late. A good program knows 95% of the students are going part time and working full time, and give lots of flexibility. We're not clueless undergrad freshman, we're adults with responsibilities. Any lateness policy in an MBA program is just emboosing.

Which apparently doesn't include showing up to class on time.
 
2010-02-23 07:17:46 PM  
I teach at a university, and I just replied to my students' emails, so I'm getting a kick, blah blah blah....

While I agree that some of the phrases the professor used were unprofessional (even if it is your "personal catchphrase," don't use profanity unless you've established a certain rapport with the student), the student committed the greater transgression here. Arriving one hour late should not be assumed acceptable, and it was idiotic of him to complain about the policy after the fact. He's made a sterling first (and second!) impression on an apparently influential member of the faculty, and one can hope that he'll never make this mistake again.

I'm wondering how many of the people complaining about the professor's expectations are the same people who complain about the "precious snowflake" entitlement mentality. The professor has earned the privilege of determining class policy; the student, at this point, hasn't earned a thing -- and after this encounter, he certainly hasn't earned any respect.
 
2010-02-23 07:22:06 PM  
Wow... It's amazing how many people have such strong opinions when they know so little about what they are talking about.

1) NYU is not a public university.
2) This prof teaches a 3 hour night class for working professionals in a part-time MBA program.
3) The professor is really bad at math. Love how people just ran with that. 3 hours/3 classes = 1 hour/class.
4) Their are only ~10-11 class sessions for each class. Classes cost $5,000 each, ~$500 per session, ~$167 per hour of class time. I'd have to argue that it is reasonable for the student to sample classes; his mistake was not e-mailing the professors before the classes.
5) For Stern Part-timers, there are no majors. Core classes, then specializations, which are made up of electives.
6) If a professor refused me entry to a class, I think i'd have to tell him I'd leave when he reimbursed me for the other 2 hours.

It isn't really entitlement when you are only trying to get what you pay for. The only entitlement I see here is from the professor, who seems to have forgotten that he is getting paid to teach, not be a prick.
 
2010-02-23 07:27:14 PM  
The professor is a dick and the student is lucky he responded with that completely unprofessional e-mail. Probably saved himself a couple hundred dollars and a big headache by not taking the class.
 
2010-02-23 07:27:31 PM  
Since when do "sample" classes? And how can you adequately sample a class in 15 minutes? In the first class, you only going to catch the basic, "welcome to MBA 140, I'm Prof knowitall. We'll be covering....". Then you trek off to class two catch the end of that same discussion. "... so in conclusion, I am hoping that you'll gain...". Then you pop in on class three get your ass pwnd for being stupid punk.

/teaches undergrads
//Galloway is my new hero
 
2010-02-23 07:29:10 PM  
While I don't think the student was out of line in what they did, it was definitely a bad idea to send that e-mail.
 
2010-02-23 07:32:55 PM  
Entertaining, but he spelled "judgment" wrong.

The classic e-mail flamewar is still Judd Apatow and that guy who told him to get cancer.
 
2010-02-23 07:33:21 PM  
That was awesome.
 
2010-02-23 07:40:55 PM  
The professor went a bit apesh*t, but he's 100% correct. This kid's whining self entitlement and lack of street sense would get him crushed in the corporate world. CRUSHED.
 
2010-02-23 07:41:35 PM  
mofomisfit: LaraAmber:
Refusing students who wear hats in class = idiosyncratic rule

Am I an old, cranky man? When I went to school this was "freaking common sense" and it wasn't long ago at all.


You're old. As someone born in the early '80s, I'm vaguely aware that this wearing a hat indoors once a serious breach of protocol, but I've never seen anyone take it seriously in the last quarter of a decade.

I'd be shocked if anyone under 50 actually cared, in 2010.
 
2010-02-23 07:41:42 PM  
kenposan: Since when do "sample" classes? And how can you adequately sample a class in 15 minutes? In the first class, you only going to catch the basic, "welcome to MBA 140, I'm Prof knowitall. We'll be covering....". Then you trek off to class two catch the end of that same discussion. "... so in conclusion, I am hoping that you'll gain...". Then you pop in on class three get your ass pwnd for being stupid punk.

/teaches undergrads
//Galloway is my new hero


Speaking from an undergrad perspective sampling classes is actually pretty common. At my university during the first week of classes we have a drop/add policy which means you can drop or add as many classes you want until the last day of the week. A lot of students will try different classes trying to find ones that fit with their schedule and to get a feel for how the classes are. Can't speak for graduate level classes however but I'm pretty sure they follow the same policy.
 
2010-02-23 07:42:31 PM  
i46.tinypic.com

Mr. Hand: What's the reason for your truancy?
Jeff Spicoli: Just couldn't make it on time.
Mr. Hand: You couldn't, or you wouldn't?
Jeff Spicoli: See, there was a full crowd at the food lines.
Mr. Hand: Food will be eaten on YOUR time. Why are you continuously late for this class, Mr. Spicoli? Why do you shamelessly waste my time like this?
Jeff Spicoli: I_don't_know.
Mr. Hand: [Mr. Hand goes to blackboard and writes the words 'I Don't Know', then underlines them]
[reciting]
Mr. Hand: I like that. 'I Don't Know.' That's nice.
[imitating]
Mr. Hand: 'Mr. Hand, will I pass this class?' Gee, Mr. Spicoli, I don't know! You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to leave your words right up here for all my classes to enjoy, giving you full credit of course, Mr. Spicoli.
Jeff Spicoli: All right!
 
2010-02-23 07:44:34 PM  
persyus: It isn't really entitlement when you are only trying to get what you pay for. The only entitlement I see here is from the professor, who seems to have forgotten that he is getting paid to teach, not be a prick.

Throwing a late student out of a class is not being a prick. The student was a moron to complain for the professor doing what he was entirely within his rights to do.

When did students lose grasp of reality?
 
2010-02-23 07:48:57 PM  
I would choke down my plate of crow and ask the prof if he'd still let me into his class.


/He's my kind of guy.
 
2010-02-23 07:50:40 PM  
I'd have to say...BORING! The student was an idiot for writing the prof in the second place and for getting to class an hour late in the first place. The prof was right to rip him a new one. Unfortunately I'd have to say that prof was rather tepid in his reaming. He really needs to take lessons.

The solution my graduate level management professor, Fred Luthans, George Holmes Distinguished Professor of Management, used to require attendance was to ensure that the tests were from his lectures and not the book he authored that was required for the class he taught. And his tests were always "Your professor is of the opinion that..." so as you can imagine it was a daily miracle when his head could fit through the door.
 
2010-02-23 07:51:51 PM  
kenposan: Since when do "sample" classes? And how can you adequately sample a class in 15 minutes?

You can't. Just a stupid crop of indecisive kid's who were somehow raised treat the world as their personal grocery store.

Read the damn course description, get other students opinions, and pick a f*cking class fools!

This is a bit like the dumbass in front of the line at Burger King who starts asking the kid at the register how many calories are in the small order of onion rings. One can get the info elsewhere without annoying everyone in the vicinity.
 
2010-02-23 07:52:36 PM  
Student was essentially in the right. Professor in the wrong.

The professors primary point of failure is equating school behavior with business behavior. The one has NOTHING AT ALL to do with the other, and by equating the two the professor only shows how out of touch he really is with the business world he claims to teach about.
 
2010-02-23 07:53:42 PM  
vice_magnet: The solution my graduate level management professor, Fred Luthans, George Holmes Distinguished Professor of Management, used to require attendance was to ensure that the tests were from his lectures and not the book he authored that was required for the class he taught.

Him and 99.9% of other professors...
 
2010-02-23 07:55:04 PM  
arentol: The professors primary point of failure is equating school behavior with business behavior.

And it's not like this was a class to teach and prepare students about business or the real world or something, amirite?

arentol: shows how out of touch he really is with the business world he claims to teach about.

I know, I'm an hour late to my meetings all the time and my boss loves it. He wants me to meet him in his office tomorrow, I assume it's to promote me.
 
2010-02-23 08:02:03 PM  
Where I work meetings tend to have required attendees and optional attendees. People whom are required to be there should f-ing be there on time. In fact, the big boss had clocks put in to all conference rooms, and all of the clocks synced and gave standing notice that anyone late to a meeting should either have a damn good reason, or get a visit from him.

You might say I work in a hellish environment, but I work in an environment that rapidly changes and has to meet the changes head on and quickly. Software projects are on a month-to-month release cycle, unlike the 6-12 month cycle a lot of our applicants are used to. This is my real world, and being on time means everything when you have SLA's to meet. Wandering in an hour late can be the deciding factor in loosing a customer. Business is business after all.
 
2010-02-23 08:02:03 PM  
damageddude: Aw, poor little grad student. Go to law school and get caught in the cross hairs of an egotistical law professor on a Socratic Method kick and then come back and complain about the poor treatment you received.

Yawn. For those of you who think this is serious, it's sort of like a code among law students. To be honest, the worst reaming is about as vicious as being pissed on by a golden retriever. Seriously, you get a good laugh about it and it's done. Unless you are a complete pussy.
 
2010-02-23 08:11:56 PM  
persyus: Wow... It's amazing how many people have such strong opinions when they know so little about what they are talking about.

1) NYU is not a public university.
2) This prof teaches a 3 hour night class for working professionals in a part-time MBA program.
3) The professor is really bad at math. Love how people just ran with that. 3 hours/3 classes = 1 hour/class.
4) Their are only ~10-11 class sessions for each class. Classes cost $5,000 each, ~$500 per session, ~$167 per hour of class time. I'd have to argue that it is reasonable for the student to sample classes; his mi

stake was not e-mailing the professors before the classes.
5) For Stern Part-timers, there are no majors. Core classes, then specializations, which are made up of electives.
6) If a professor refused me entry to a class, I think i'd have to tell him I'd leave when he reimbursed me for the other 2 hours.

It isn't really entitlement when you are only trying to get what you pay for. The only entitlement I see here is from the professor, who seems to have forgotten that he is getting paid to teach, not be a prick.


True on all points.

We had a prick professor like that in my PMBA program. One of my classmates emailed him ahead of time letting him know that he had a business trip the following week and might arrive to class late (or not at all) because of his flight. The prof told him that it was his "choice" to show up or not, but he would not provide any class notes.

Umm, hello, a$$hole, it's a PROFESSIONAL program which means we work fulltime and take classes on nights and weekends. We can't tell work "to hell with your trip, I have a class to go to."

Mugato: MBA : When you flunk out of the engineering program
/and the computer science program
//and the biology program
///and the phys ed program


My undergrad is a BS in Computer Science (Summa Cum Laude) but thanks for generalizing. ;)

Lots of generalizations, hate and jealousy in this thread, though if most people are only exposed to the douchebag MBA's (some of whom I went to school with) I can understand the perspective.
 
2010-02-23 08:12:15 PM  
sboyle1020: bv2112: sboyle1020: That professor is being paid via student tuition, enormous difference.

It's a business school. One of the world's most prestigious business schools. In that environment, you should probably be more professional than I am in my job.

Yes, but you are PAYING for their service. Hence, it's their job to give you what you are paying for. Not write pointless emails to feed your ego. I think a non-reply would have been his best course of action.


Guess what? Being accepted in the program is an honor. There are at least one hundred other people who would love to have the slot. Education is not a consumer product. You don't pay a price to get a diploma. There are actually laws against that. You pay tuition for the right to attend and learn from people who are more educated and experienced than you. And, this is only after you experience the honor of being accepted.

But, be honest here, you tried to buy a grade as an undergrad, yes?
 
2010-02-23 08:17:05 PM  
fuhfuhfuh: Where I work meetings tend to have required attendees and optional attendees. People whom are required to be there should f-ing be there on time. In fact, the big boss had clocks put in to all conference rooms, and all of the clocks synced and gave standing notice that anyone late to a meeting should either have a damn good reason, or get a visit from him.


A professor is not the same as the "big boss" in your high pressure career. Precious snowflake syndrome is bad, yes, but the comparisons some are making between college and the real world are bogus, because college is not the real world. It may teach you about the real world, but it's still just college.

I'm not saying this prof is wrong to expect punctuality to within 15 minutes as he says he does, but being late to class is not the same as being late to your job where they pay you to be there and do their bidding.
 
2010-02-23 08:20:29 PM  
What an over-analysis. Sheesh.
 
2010-02-23 08:24:27 PM  
It's_A_Farking_Secret: bv2112:
I don't know where you work, but if I rolled into work an hour late and then complained to my boss about his attitude, I don't think he would have been polite to me. So, insofar as education consists of preparing people for real life and teaching them morals, I don't think the professor overstepped his bounds.

It was an asinine (yet accurate) answer to a stupid complaint.

It's not work.

The student is paying the professor to prepare and present a lecture on a topic of interest labelled in the class schedule.

Entering quietly in the back and taking a seat should cause little to no disruption. The broadway analogy is piss poor since opening a door would create a huge light disturbance plus lots of whispers of "excuse me" as one gets to their assigned seat.


The student is buying a service. Retail people, or in this case professors, absolutely hate when people pay for a service, then ask for a service that is different than that for which they paid. Post-contract changes are how construction people make a ton of money... people say retarded stuff like "while you're at it..."

You want an education in the world of business... here it is: punctuality matters. It doesn't matter whether you are the consumer or the seller, punctuality matters. If you waste someone else's time, you have imposed an undue cost on them. Whether it is the lowest person in your business structure, or the president himself, wasting peoples time costs money... you don't simply get to do it.

/has been known to show up 57 minutes early on days when given the choice between 57 minutes early and 3 minutes late.
 
2010-02-23 08:29:07 PM  
Education is not a consumer product.

Yes it is.

The grade isn't for sale, but access to the teaching is.
 
2010-02-23 08:31:32 PM  
The prof can tell him to GTFO and the student (parents) can take his (parents') money elsewhere.
 
2010-02-23 08:32:28 PM  
Karma Curmudgeon: Constance Velocity: If that's true, that's too bad. There are far too many arrogantly-entitled people who can't hear anything unless it's applied with a sledgehammer. And they need to be told.

Not disagreeing with that. But a snarky email is probably the worst possible way to try do that.


And I think that's why he sent it to his entire class. The douchey student was being made an example of. The student was rude and I don't think he deserves anything less than an equally rude response. I am sick and tired of people acting like assholes and getting all butt-hurt when you call them on it in the same rude manner that they started the situation with.
 
2010-02-23 08:33:33 PM  
IamSoSmart_S_M_R_T: persyus: Wow... It's amazing how many people have such strong opinions when they know so little about what they are talking about.

1) NYU is not a public university.
2) This prof teaches a 3 hour night class for working professionals in a part-time MBA program.
3) The professor is really bad at math. Love how people just ran with that. 3 hours/3 classes = 1 hour/class.
4) Their are only ~10-11 class sessions for each class. Classes cost $5,000 each, ~$500 per session, ~$167 per hour of class time. I'd have to argue that it is reasonable for the student to sample classes; his mi

stake was not e-mailing the professors before the classes.
5) For Stern Part-timers, there are no majors. Core classes, then specializations, which are made up of electives.
6) If a professor refused me entry to a class, I think i'd have to tell him I'd leave when he reimbursed me for the other 2 hours.

It isn't really entitlement when you are only trying to get what you pay for. The only entitlement I see here is from the professor, who seems to have forgotten that he is getting paid to teach, not be a prick.

True on all points.

We had a prick professor like that in my PMBA program. One of my classmates emailed him ahead of time letting him know that he had a business trip the following week and might arrive to class late (or not at all) because of his flight. The prof told him that it was his "choice" to show up or not, but he would not provide any class notes.

Umm, hello, a$$hole, it's a PROFESSIONAL program which means we work fulltime and take classes on nights and weekends. We can't tell work "to hell with your trip, I have a class to go to."

Mugato: MBA : When you flunk out of the engineering program
/and the computer science program
//and the biology program
///and the phys ed program

My undergrad is a BS in Computer Science (Summa Cum Laude) but thanks for generalizing. ;)

Lots of generalizations, hate and jealousy in this thread, though if most people are only exposed to the douchebag MBA's (some of whom I went to school with) I can understand the perspective.


When I was still teaching econ, I'd occasionally get emails like that (not a professional program). If it was for family, medical, or work reasons, I would email them back politely saying not to worry about coming to the class, just make some of my office hours later in the week, and I'd include a copy of my notes for that lecture.

That said, I also had students who expected me to bend to ridiculous lengths simply because they paid for the class. I heard everything from students who wanted me to make a whole new test because they missed one because they weren't ready for it to a student who thought she should get a pass, not a two week extension on a project that was supposed to be the culmination of her semester of work (one of those things we assign at the beginning)... I mean, I felt bad that her grandmom died and all, but but she was alive until two nights before the project was due.

With lateness, as with cell-phone policies... I don't give a crap what you paid for, I care what the other people in the classroom paid for. If you think you have enough money to compensate them for devaluing the class that they paid for by interrupting it with your idiocy, I encourage you to try to buy them off. It is also worth noting that grad school classes are not much like undergrad classes, the size is generally much smaller... it's hard to wander into a class of 15 people without interrupting it.
 
2010-02-23 08:34:54 PM  
Constance Velocity: And I think that's why he sent it to his entire class. The douchey student was being made an example of. The student was rude...


How, exactly?
 
2010-02-23 08:38:56 PM  
firefly212: You want an education in the world of business... here it is: punctuality matters. It doesn't matter whether you are the consumer or the seller, punctuality matters. If you waste someone else's time, you have imposed an undue cost on them. Whether it is the lowest person in your business structure, or the president himself, wasting peoples time costs money... you don't simply get to do it.

/has been known to show up 57 minutes early on days when given the choice between 57 minutes early and 3 minutes late.


This. The difficulty is realizing that people who aren't getting this, probably won't get it, as the concepts involved require both empathy and responsibility. You can easily teach the latter, but not the former, and you can't comfortably teach either in a forum thread.
 
2010-02-23 08:39:15 PM  
Wulfman: Constance Velocity: And I think that's why he sent it to his entire class. The douchey student was being made an example of. The student was rude...


How, exactly?


Wandering in and out of small classes is disruptive and devalues everyone elses time and money. This self-important douchebag couldn't be bothered to talk with other students, use the numerous websites out there for class reviews, talk with or email professors beforehand about their classes, or put forth one iota of effort to actually figure out what class he wanted to take. Instead, he figured he would waste several man-hours of everyone elses time (3 minutes of 20 people's time in one class, then another, then another) with his coming and going. Then he has the tenacity to get even more uppity when someone objects to his selfish behavior because he somehow equates paying for a product with some sort of assumed right to interfere with everyone else's right to do the same thing. Fark him with a long pointy stick.
 
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