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(The New York Times)   Toyota to tell Congress that it's not electronics causing acceleration problems, but floor mats and gas pedals and cementheads who step on the wrong pedal   (nytimes.com) divider line 223
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6278 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Feb 2010 at 1:46 PM (4 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-02-23 05:09:55 PM
GreatNOD: I know that Toyta has a brake override system. So, when the vehicle is moving and both the gas and brake pedal are pushed at the same time, the software forces the vehicle to respond to the brake only. The brake takes precedence over the gas pedal. But I was wondering, what if the sensor or connector can be plugged in upsidedown switching what pedal takes precedence over the other? If the engineers didn't idiot-proof the connection, it could explain why they didn't find a problem with the software.

No, current Toyotas do not have such a system. That is the problem with the models under the recall.
 
2010-02-23 05:10:06 PM
darisd: Stryyder:
"The system is fallible, in fact, it's got some really troubling design strategies that are employed by Toyota that appear to be outside the norm. And their system clearly has a design strategy that has a very slim margin of safety."

I went into a bit more detail myself. But kudos for figuring out how to actually spoof the ECU!

/ engineer


thanks for the blog entry. that was an interesting comparison between two approaches
 
2010-02-23 05:14:34 PM
Yodacat: New cars haven't been 5k since the 70's. Either you're waaay behind, or an idiot.

I think you missed the point. The point is that the need to pump more and more technology into cars is driving the price up.

I remember reading in the early 90's it was estimated that airbags added about $1000 or more to the cost of a new vehicle. Add that across all the gadgets and crap that they keep designing into cars and it drives the cost up.

I'm not saying we shouldn't find ways to improve safety and emissions but a lot of crap that's built into cars is really more about keeping up with the other guy's toys.
 
2010-02-23 05:14:58 PM
Yodacat: New cars haven't been 5k since the 70's. Either you're waaay behind, or an idiot.

I think Late 80's early 90's is really the years your looking for on that for base model cars, but dont let the facts get in the way of your name calling.
 
2010-02-23 05:18:13 PM
pacified: if this were happening to Ford or Chevy, Republicans would just blame unions

THIS

Remember Sen. Shelby in the GM bailout hearing
 
2010-02-23 05:26:24 PM
Here is a relevant story:

a guy I knew in grad school got a part time summer job with his town's DPW when he was 17. I forget what he did but it involved driving around an old beat up truck like a jeep comanche or something. This was the late 80's so the truck was probably early 70's vintage. So he was headed back to the garage one day, approaching an intersection when the light at the intersection turns red. As he starts to come to a stop he realizes the engine is starting to rev up even though he is pushing on the brakes. The truck slows down but does not come to a complete stop so he pushes on the brakes harder and harder while starting to panic. The harder he pushes the more the engine revs up and the truck never completely stops. So the traffic light is red but truck is slowly creaping forward, he is pressing on the brakes with all of his strength and the engine is farking screaming. The engine was probably burning oil at this point because smoke is pouring out the back of the truck and filling the intersection with smoke as he slowly rolls through it. Realizing that is probably going to be die in an accident he is totally flipping out and can only think "oh shiat, oh shiat, oh shiat" as he rolls through the intersection. Fortunately the traffic going the other way stops before hitting him and and he makes it through the intersection. That's when he comes to his senses and realizes that he is stepping on the brake pedal and the accelerator at the same time. It turns out they were really close together on this truck. When he gets back to the garage the guy in charge is on the phone being screamed at by a concerned citizen who witnessed a DPW employee doing "donuts" in an intersection. My buddy, who was still shaking and ghostly white from his near death experience, has to explain what happened with truck to the now pissed off boss and the other employees. Of course they nearly shiat themselves laughing when they hear the story. And needless to say rest of the summer is filled with them riding his azz about doing stunts in the town truck.
 
2010-02-23 05:28:44 PM
With the way Toyota is slowly coming clean about what the exact problem is, I'm pretty much convinced that they don't want to fix it because it's insanely expensive to repair. They'd rather a few people die and blame it on floor-mats or some other crap that's cheaper. Except they are very bad liars and people now know this.

Narrator: A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
Business woman on plane: Are there a lot of these kinds of accidents?
Narrator: You wouldn't believe.
Business woman on plane: Which car company do you work for?
Narrator: A major one.
 
2010-02-23 05:30:57 PM
Oznog: STOOOOOOP!

We can't stop, it's too dangerous! We have to slow down first!



/smoke if you got 'em
 
2010-02-23 05:33:59 PM
Quote from article:

"Mrs. Smith told the energy committee that she furiously pushed buttons, shifted gears, and slammed on the brakes as she tried to stop the vehicle, Finally, after six miles, she was able to stop the car."

I guess the idea of shifting into farking NEUTRAL didn't cross this soccer moms mind...

$20 says that if a Lexus red-lines the fuel pump shuts off
 
2010-02-23 05:38:20 PM
Well that does it, no more Toyotas for me. My next car is going to be an Audi 5000.


farking moron drivers were the problem then and just as likely the problem now.
 
2010-02-23 05:41:21 PM
ColonelCathcart: Quote from article:

"Mrs. Smith told the energy committee that she furiously pushed buttons, shifted gears, and slammed on the brakes as she tried to stop the vehicle, Finally, after six miles, she was able to stop the car."

I guess the idea of shifting into farking NEUTRAL didn't cross this soccer moms mind...

$20 says that if a Lexus red-lines the fuel pump shuts off


Its been well established that new lexus lock out shifting out of Drive when engine RPM is 3500 or more and they have shift by wire systems....

But whatever.
 
2010-02-23 05:45:46 PM
MIU: degreeless: MIU: Well that's settled - next car's going to be a Hyundai.

/Wants a Matrix

Cool Story,
Try a car that doesn't end in a vowel, you globe trotting vagina.

Welcome to my ignore list, threadshiatter!


I couldn't help thinking about this.
img199.imageshack.us
 
2010-02-23 05:50:24 PM
Screw this crap. Anybody know where I can get a Jeep Commando in decent shape? I don;t want any freaking computers and I don;t want to have to take it to the mechanic.
 
2010-02-23 05:59:08 PM
there's only one reason why this BS is blown out of propoprtion, and it has nothing to do with car safety, and everything to do with some military bases and some failing car companies.

/ drives obscure yoropean cars
 
2010-02-23 06:02:18 PM
dinch: Screw this crap. Anybody know where I can get a Jeep Commando in decent shape? I don;t want any freaking computers and I don;t want to have to take it to the mechanic.

But you do want to use ; in place of '?
 
2010-02-23 06:02:52 PM
WTFDYW: Just out of curiosity, what do you think would happen if Toyota got sick of being kicked around and said, "Fine roundeye, we'll mothball the factories, take our shiat and leave"?

Toyota would lose a shiatload of money. With the cost of transportation it is less expensive for them to build cars in the USA (non-union states). Toyota has spent the better part of the last decade trying to convince Americans that it is an American Company. Of course, the profits still go back to Japan and htey don't have the legacy costs of decades of retired workers still on their pensions.
 
2010-02-23 06:03:42 PM
NightOwl2255: dinch: Screw this crap. Anybody know where I can get a Jeep Commando in decent shape? I don;t want any freaking computers and I don;t want to have to take it to the mechanic.

But you do want to use ; in place of '?


in a rush and i;m a shiatty typer
 
2010-02-23 06:11:17 PM
RottNDude: Some time ago, there was an issue (new window) with GSM phones interfering with the Occupant Position Detection System in Honda Civics and Accords.

Interesting. When I set my iPhone on the dash next to the radio in my 2002 Acura, occasionally it will cause staticky noise in the radio. The noise disappears when I move the device away from the radio and recurs when I move the device next to the radio.

I'm glad the car has a real throttle cable.
 
2010-02-23 06:21:39 PM
i298.photobucket.com

cementheads who step on the wrong pedal
 
2010-02-23 06:23:04 PM
"foetuses "

Whats the point of the O in that word?
 
2010-02-23 06:24:28 PM
Of course, the profits still go back to Japan and htey don't have the legacy costs of decades of retired workers still on their pensions.

Right, because Japan has a national health care plan...

Its been well established that new lexus lock out shifting out of Drive when engine RPM is 3500 or more and they have shift by wire system
This, and even if this wasn't the case, the attempts to trivialized a stuck/wide open throttle conditions, steering problems, and braking problems, are amusing..
"Hey it's not a big deal, moron, just shift into neutral (even if the car fights you), or turn off the key (potentially locking the wheel).

and I suppose only a complete idiot would dare to have a failure like this in traffic, or in a parking lot, or anywhere but an empty highway... these people clearly don't deserve a car as magical as a Toyota...
 
2010-02-23 06:25:02 PM
Xyphoid: Audi had a similar situation where the car would "magically" fly forward when put into gear. It was later found that many consumers were simply using the wrong pedal, as they were used to domestic vehicle spacing of the pedals and Audi had theirs spaced differently.

www.parduephotos.com
 
2010-02-23 06:25:38 PM
lefande: Maybe you are thinking of blinker fluid.

Oddly enough, my MINI actually has blinker fluid.
 
2010-02-23 06:26:39 PM
GreatNOD: I know that Toyta has a brake override system.

FAIL.
 
2010-02-23 06:27:46 PM
I've had the gas pedal get stuck on my 99 toyota tacoma.

It has a mechanical throttle linkage though, not electronic.

And it isn't a "sudden burst of acceleration", and it isn't a floor mat issue, it is literally the acceleration pedal sticking to the farking floor. For some reason it only happens when I make right turns too...so yeah, I'd get it fixed but I dont have the money

Also, my clutch pedal gets stuck to the floor sometimes too, and I've replaced the slave cylinder and all this shiat but it still does it.
 
2010-02-23 06:28:44 PM
brewthunda: Never experienced anything like this with any other car we've owned (Ford, BMW, Toyota, Fiat). My wife hates driving it for that reason. I know it's caused by crappy ecu programming.

I had a 1988 Olds and a 2006 MINI that did that occasionally.
 
2010-02-23 06:29:04 PM
darisd: Stryyder:
"The system is fallible, in fact, it's got some really troubling design strategies that are employed by Toyota that appear to be outside the norm. And their system clearly has a design strategy that has a very slim margin of safety."

I went into a bit more detail myself. But kudos for figuring out how to actually spoof the ECU!

/ engineer


Good write-up, but I doubt that a broken magnet is the issue. I listened to some of the subcommittee hearing today when the Southern Illinois University professor was talking about the Toyota sensor system.

Most drive-by-wire systems work either like the VW system you mentioned in your write-up, where two or more signals move in opposite directions, or two or more signals are sent that move in the same direction but increase at different rates (i.e. signal 1 should be half of signal 2). This makes it very easy to detect faults.

The Toyota system apparently has two sensors that both increase voltage as the pedal is pressed and both increase voltage at the same rate. The professor said that as long as the signals differ by at least 0.2v (or 0.02v, I forget which), the ECU would accept the signals as distinct. I believe that something is wearing through the insulation on the signal wires and the wires are coming into contact with a power source corresponding to a WOT signal.
 
2010-02-23 06:29:13 PM
This happened to me years ago with my 1981 Toyota Celica while I was driving with the cruise control. I found that I could not disengage it. Given that it was a stick shift though, I just took it out of gear, applied the brakes, and then turned off the ignition.

It turns out a little vacuum tube in the under the hood had come off. I just stuck it back on and problem solved.
 
2010-02-23 06:30:34 PM
Audi had a similar situation where the car would "magically" fly forward when put into gear. I
Similar in manifestation, NOT similar, my any reasonable estimation, including that (begrudgingly) of TOYOTA ITSELF in root cause...

Of course this non-analogy has been posited a zillion times before.. so why should anyone stop now...
 
2010-02-23 06:33:39 PM
TOYOTA: TRY AND STOP US!
 
2010-02-23 06:37:35 PM
markb289 2010-02-23 06:02:52 PM
WTFDYW: Just out of curiosity, what do you think would happen if Toyota got sick of being kicked around and said, "Fine roundeye, we'll mothball the factories, take our shiat and leave"?

Toyota would lose a shiatload of money. With the cost of transportation it is less expensive for them to build cars in the USA (non-union states). Toyota has spent the better part of the last decade trying to convince Americans that it is an American Company. Of course, the profits still go back to Japan and htey don't have the legacy costs of decades of retired workers still on their pensions.


Thanks for a reply.

But if they DID pull this card out, it would unemploy about 40,000 people nationwide. I'd think that would not be in our best interest in these times.

/I know they won't close up shop, but that's just something that crossed my mind.
 
2010-02-23 06:37:51 PM
What I find interesting is that my GM car has had three recalls in the past eight years or so -- one serious enough that it had caused fires in some cars -- and it never made then news.

Now that the US gov't is bailing out American auto manufacturers, the media is saturated with stories about recalls for foreign makes.
 
2010-02-23 06:44:42 PM
Just last week I was in a small parking lot with a slight incline and had trouble finding the right pedal to push to stop my car. I was looking over my shoulder and i guess my feet had shifted from where they normally are. It's a mildly panic inducing feeling, but it only took me a second to find the brake again and I was safely on my way without problems.

If my car ever began to accelerate out of control, I guess I'd just have to press the clutch...
 
2010-02-23 07:08:35 PM
Just saw some of the testimonial on the news for this...

Apparently one of the women DID shift into neutral, and even into reverse, and the car continued to accelerate and move forward.

Scary shiat.
 
2010-02-23 07:19:37 PM
I blame Bosch
 
2010-02-23 07:21:15 PM
Talon: Just saw some of the testimonial on the news for this...

Apparently one of the women DID shift into neutral, and even into reverse, and the car continued to accelerate and move forward.

Scary shiat.


She should have stripped the gears...its obvious the transmission was too hot.
 
2010-02-23 07:27:24 PM
annoyed_grunt: C+D did a test where even with the accelerator pinned to the floor,the cars still stopped if you actually mashed the brake pedal. Not buying all this.

I try to ignore the whole "liberal media" cries, but it makes you wonder when a non-union company gets ass-blasted by union-funded media and congress.
 
2010-02-23 07:34:15 PM
forresttriax: I blame Bosch

Lol.
 
2010-02-23 07:39:27 PM
Talon: Just saw some of the testimonial on the news for this...

Apparently one of the women DID shift into neutral, and even into reverse, and the car continued to accelerate and move forward.

Scary shiat.


Well the Reverse I know it'll reject that command, it will not engage Reverse when going forward. Neutral... I'm kinda surprised there. Normally, shifting into Neutral with the throttle all the way down puts it in danger of redlining the engine. But since it's an electronic throttle, then it would logically just limit the engine RPM in Neutral by discarding the pedal input.

So there's no reason I see to disregard the Neutral command there. It should have shifted.
 
2010-02-23 07:44:00 PM
What are new Camry's going for right now with all the negative press? Think I could trade in my '08 four-banger Altima for a V6 '10 Camry with minimal extra payment?
 
2010-02-23 07:51:33 PM
All this makes me happy my car has a stick. There's NO WAY my car won't go into neutral if I see fit to do so. I like having that much interaction with my car. Hell, I don't even like the upshift light nagging me to go to a higher gear to save gas. That's what a tachometer/hearing the engine revs is for.
 
2010-02-23 07:52:13 PM
WTFDYW: markb289 2010-02-23 06:02:52 PM
WTFDYW: Just out of curiosity, what do you think would happen if Toyota got sick of being kicked around and said, "Fine roundeye, we'll mothball the factories, take our shiat and leave"?

Toyota would lose a shiatload of money. With the cost of transportation it is less expensive for them to build cars in the USA (non-union states). Toyota has spent the better part of the last decade trying to convince Americans that it is an American Company. Of course, the profits still go back to Japan and htey don't have the legacy costs of decades of retired workers still on their pensions.

Thanks for a reply.

But if they DID pull this card out, it would unemploy about 40,000 people nationwide. I'd think that would not be in our best interest in these times.

/I know they won't close up shop, but that's just something that crossed my mind.


I doubt they would close shop, but would enviably have to layoff a large chunk of their workforce since they would be focused on fixing one small part the car vs. producing new ones and the bad press also will reduce sales.
 
2010-02-23 07:54:26 PM
Glitchwerks: all y'all toyoda owners can drive off a cliff like that talented cat driver ends up doing on teevee all the time...if you wuz real americans you would be driving chevy cars...not ford though cuz they found on the road dead, know what i'm sayin?

take your rice burners back to japan, morans!!!!1


I'd bet that more Toyota parts are made here in the USA than on your Chevy. Just sayin'
 
2010-02-23 07:56:14 PM
CONGRESS: Let me see your identification.
TOYOTA: [with a small wave of his hand] You don't need to see his identification.
CONGRESS: We don't need to see his identification.
TOYOTA: These aren't the droids you're looking for.
CONGRESS: These aren't the droids we're looking for.
TOYOTA: He can go about his business.
CONGRESS: You can go about your business.
TOYOTA: Move along.
CONGRESS: Move along... move along.
 
2010-02-23 07:58:23 PM
On my drive home today (in a Prius BTW) I was listening to the NPR story (am I fulfilling stereotypes?) about Toyotas and unintended acceleration. Some woman was testifying in front of Congress about how her Lexus was going 100 MPH on the highway and she was pressing the brake with both feet and it wouldn't stop. She proceeded to say she started praying, THEN she FREAKIN' CALLED HER HUSBAND because she wanted to hear his voice one last time. All I could think was YOU FARKING MORON, your car is going 100 MPH and you're praying to Jeebus and talking on the cell phone. You deserve to die because you're so farking stupid.

/whew
 
2010-02-23 08:06:20 PM
lefande: icy_one:

Racism aside

Racism? I don't recall mentioning anyone's race. Is it racism anytime someone complains that a high paying federal job is occupied by an illegal immigrant? That seems to me to be constitutionalism and patriotism, not racism.

I couldn't get a job at Hardees with what Barry Obama has produced in proof of citizenship documentation.


You couldn't get a job at Hardee's under any circumstances - you aren't qualified.
 
2010-02-23 08:20:37 PM
RandomAxe: Well, there is a mechanical problem with the accelerator linkage in some (but not all) Toyotas, as some use parts made in Japan and some use slightly different ones made in the US.

However, there's no evidence that this potential problem is actually at fault in any of the instances in question, and there's some evidence that it isn't. And the same goes for the electronics.


Toyota Camry's do not have a throttle linkage. The petal is hooked to the throttle position sensor, and that is all.

I had a 2000 VW Jetta with the same setup. The Germans were smart enough to realize that sensors sometimes fail. Pressing on the brake for three seconds sent the car back to idle. I'm utterly amazed that 10 years later freaking Toyota doesn't have the same feature. I'm sure the brake position switch feeds into the ECU. How many lines of code could it take to create that functionality?

The Germans even thought about a brake switch failure. If you pressed on the gas five times in a row the brake switch cut off would be disabled until you shut the car off.
 
2010-02-23 08:24:54 PM
gregario: On my drive home today (in a Prius BTW) I was listening to the NPR story (am I fulfilling stereotypes?) about Toyotas and unintended acceleration. Some woman was testifying in front of Congress about how her Lexus was going 100 MPH on the highway and she was pressing the brake with both feet and it wouldn't stop. She proceeded to say she started praying, THEN she FREAKIN' CALLED HER HUSBAND because she wanted to hear his voice one last time. All I could think was YOU FARKING MORON, your car is going 100 MPH and you're praying to Jeebus and talking on the cell phone. You deserve to die because you're so farking stupid.

/whew


www.ridelust.com
 
2010-02-23 08:26:22 PM
A friend of mine owns an early model prius and has never had any of the problems with it that were described in any of the news items that have been pushed lately, though she does tend to leadfoot it. One thing I did notice after the long one on the news a few nights ago was that the commercials immediately following were for ford and gm in that order both stressing their quality and safety record. Interesting thing that.

I for one will continue to buy toyota or nissan over anything made stateside. At least until detroit actually makes something as reliable that costs less (without counting tariffs) Because american made or not, shiate is shiate and there isn't a u.s. made car anywhere in the world that is worth the money it costs or the risk one takes in driving it.
 
2010-02-23 08:44:01 PM
indarwinsshadow: Having spent the last 25 years in IT I'm confused by the claim it's electronics. For a simple reason. Electronics are great for one thing. They either work, or they don't. It's not a half way subject. If it were a problem with the electronics I'd suspect it would be in more cars than 1 in 10,000+. My guess is it's the car owner, or better yet something started by the UAW/CAW (claims or accusations are a great way to sabotage a product). I would not put it past either organization with funding from the big 3 to discredit Toyota. Seems like a strange co-incidence that Toyota has for years made steady in roads in North America, last year the big 3 faced bankruptcy and were only saved by a massive injection of cash by U.S/Canada, and suddenly a couple of months later there appears a "problem" with all of Toyotas products. I'm not about to break out the tinfoil just yet, but I do believe that modern ig business is the most corrupt and evil entity in the history of mankind and would stop at nothing to regain its market share.

It took me about 2 days in IT to see a file server spontaneously reboot under load. Nothing thrown to syslog. Probably bad memory, but it could have been almost anything else. This shiat happens all the time.

"Simple" electronics are typically more predictable in their failure modes, but only if they are designed to be.
 
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