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(Seattle Times)   Remember a time when facts settled arguments? Those were the good old days, before the dark times ... before people became estranged from critical thinking, divorced from logic, alienated from even objective truth   (seattletimes.nwsource.com) divider line 691
    More: Sad, objective truth, Arlington National Cemetery, Mr. Thompson, Jim Crow, Harry Truman, editorial pages, Miami Herald, logic  
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32420 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Feb 2010 at 9:35 AM (4 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-02-23 08:19:01 AM  
Welcome to FARK
 
2010-02-23 08:23:28 AM  
WTFDYW: Welcome to FARK

Nothing more to see here people. Move along.
 
2010-02-23 08:25:04 AM  
WTFDYW: Welcome to FARK

Done in one.

But it is greenlit and that means that soon the little liters will be here to spew venom at each other and attempt to crush each other with logical fallacies and lies, damn lies, and statistics.
 
2010-02-23 08:28:52 AM  
Jesus was an extraterrestrial.
 
2010-02-23 08:31:07 AM  
So I'm to understand that because some asshat has decided not to believe official documentation, society is falling apart and I should lament the loss of the good old days?

Idiots who have existed since the beginning of recorded time. Many of them have chosen to ignore the best available evidence for any number of positions.

However, I applaud the author for yelling at the clouds in such a whiny, douchy tone.

--paul
 
2010-02-23 08:35:04 AM  
Looks like another sucker who bought into the Henry Johnson hoax. Wake up, sheeple!
 
2010-02-23 08:37:28 AM  
Babwa Wawa: Idiots who have existed since the beginning of recorded time.

And you, with your incredible few decades of experience, can say with authority that the situation has not deteriorated.

Son, you have done far more to prove this author's assertions than anything I can even imagine.
 
2010-02-23 08:40:16 AM  
I blame Fox News. they mainstreamed ignoring facts. they even won a lawsuit that said they could lie to the public with impunity.
 
2010-02-23 08:44:20 AM  
This guy could write a thesis just by visiting the politics tab.
 
2010-02-23 08:49:34 AM  
Random Reality Check: Son, you have done far more to prove this author's assertions than anything I can even imagine.

There are plenty of historical examples, from the infancy of science through the practice of racism, where people showed deliberate ignorance of evidence.

The author is asserting that more people willfully ignore evidence now than in the past. Ironically, he provides no real evidence other than an anecdote.
 
2010-02-23 09:04:16 AM  
Babwa Wawa: The author is asserting that more people willfully ignore evidence now than in the past. Ironically, he provides no real evidence other than an anecdote.

I'm pretty sure a case could be built based solely on the achievements made in this country from the turn of the century until perhaps the 1980s. At one time we led the world in invention, technology, science, education, and just about every other milestone you could name.

Flash forward to today...

A large percentage of our high school graduates can barely read, they know even less math, science comprehension in this country is a farking joke and I can reliably tell you that in my lifetime (I'm old now) the level of understanding on even the most basic level of physics has degraded to where many of us older farts wonder how many of the kids these days remember to breathe.

There are times in history, thoroughly documented periods, where ignorance flourished. This will be remembered as one of those times.
 
2010-02-23 09:08:58 AM  
Babwa Wawa: The author is asserting that more people willfully ignore evidence now than in the past. Ironically, he provides no real evidence other than an anecdote.

just his observational opinion. I too think that political discussion has went off the rails moreso than previous generations.
in the age of cable television and the internet the rules have changed. people are no longer challenged when they espouse untruths. the lie is given equal weight as the truth so as to appear objective. (most networks) or the lie is given all the weight as the truth is mocked or ignored by the media that has an political agenda.
 
2010-02-23 09:10:00 AM  
That headline is totally subjective.
 
2010-02-23 09:22:52 AM  
Babwa Wawa: There are plenty of historical examples, from the infancy of science through the practice of racism, where people showed deliberate ignorance of evidence.

It is not just a deliberate ignorance of evidence, there is a sub-culture in our nation that celebrates the ignorant and spurns the expert. And it is not just regarding one issue, or one aspect of knowledge, it is about EVERYTHING.

They deny the evidence of global warming, they deny the evidence of evolution, they deny the evidence that inoculation doesn't cause autism. They reference folk wisdom and religious text as the be all and end all of scholastic achievement. They refuse to examine their own ideas, and turn to sources that will echo their own beliefs rather then challenge them. In short Americans have not just become physically lazy and obese, but intellectually lazy and stupid.
 
2010-02-23 09:23:48 AM  
My cat doesn't believe in Dog.
 
2010-02-23 09:26:51 AM  
This guy strikes me as the type that puts such high importance on facts, that he's incapable of using those facts to logically arrive at a conclusion.

The whole thing started out as an argument over whether or not the dude was black. Does it make any difference?
 
2010-02-23 09:30:14 AM  
TFA: To listen to talk radio, to watch TV pundits, to read a newspaper's online message board, is to realize that increasingly, we are a people estranged from critical thinking, divorced from logic, alienated from even objective truth. We admit no ideas that do not confirm us, hear no voices that do not echo us, sift out all information that does not validate what we wish to believe.



He sounds elitist. We should dismiss what he says as self-serving unimportant fallacy.
 
2010-02-23 09:30:39 AM  
serial_crusher: This guy strikes me as the type that puts such high importance on facts, that he's incapable of using those facts to logically arrive at a conclusion.

The whole thing started out as an argument over whether or not the dude was black. Does it make any difference?


You haven't been to the politics tab lately, have you?
 
2010-02-23 09:33:28 AM  
After a lifetime of experience and consideration, I've come to the conclusion that there never was a golden age of reason where people carefully considered all the evidence, weighed all the facts, and then came to conclusions and formed opinions, yet were always ready to change their minds in the face of new evidence. I'm pretty sure that time never existed.

Rather, I believe people think the way they always have: They form their opinions, and then go searching for facts and other people that make them feel smart and justified for holding those opinions. Your only hope is lucking into forming the correct opinions from the start, otherwise you're condemned to a lifetime of tinfoil hats and freeper threads.
 
2010-02-23 09:34:41 AM  
Random Reality Check: I'm pretty sure a case could be built based solely on the achievements made in this country from the turn of the century until perhaps the 1980s. At one time we led the world in invention, technology, science, education, and just about every other milestone you could name.

Flash forward to today...

A large percentage of our high school graduates can barely read, they know even less math, science comprehension in this country is a farking joke and I can reliably tell you that in my lifetime (I'm old now) the level of understanding on even the most basic level of physics has degraded to where many of us older farts wonder how many of the kids these days remember to breathe.

There are times in history, thoroughly documented periods, where ignorance flourished. This will be remembered as one of those times.


Hm. Strom Thurmond and George Wallace would like a word. As would Stanislaw Burzynski and Robert Gentry.

I'm not exactly young myself. But I don't delude myself into thinking that people in the past were much smarter, less gullible or ignorant than they are now.

I will grant that modern communication methods which allow people to sing uninformed opinions from the mountaintops allow the perception that more ignorance exists now than in the past.

For example, this whole exchange between the idiot columnist and the idiot reader would not have taken place in the 1980s. First, the columnist would likely have had better subject matter to write about so that he didn't have to ironically comment on the propensity of people to ignore evidence whilst not providing any evidence. And the reader would not have had the patience to type up multiple letters and mail them to the newspaper. At most, it would have been one letter to the editor, which would have found its way into the trash. More likely, his ignorance would have just remained in his own twisted mind.

The increased communication of ignorant beliefs does not necessarily mean that it's more ubiquitous.
 
2010-02-23 09:34:48 AM  
I may be myopic here, but I blame talk radio and Fox News. There are no consequences for lying outright any more. And some wharrgarbl spouted by Rush Limbaugh in the morning is plastered all over facebook and free republic in the afternoon, parroted by people who smugly present the "facts" that support their worldview.

They think it is possible for someone to be simultaneously a Nazi, a socialist, and and communist, since they've been told Obama is all three. They want the current president impeached, although they are a little fuzzy as to what "impeached" means. But they know if it would somehow remove the Nazi, socialist, communist negro, they are all for it. They have turned into lolcats, and the talking heads are getting rich by ginning up the fear and loathing.

I don't begrudge the free speech issue, but we should at least be able to identify bullshiat for what it is. And that distinction is slipping away.
 
2010-02-23 09:34:51 AM  
Code_Archeologist: It is not just a deliberate ignorance of evidence, there is a sub-culture in our nation that celebrates the ignorant and spurns the expert. And it is not just regarding one issue, or one aspect of knowledge, it is about EVERYTHING.

...which sub-culture is hardly a new thing under the sun.

However, subjectively it appears to be growing in numbers, noise level, and obstinacy.
 
2010-02-23 09:37:55 AM  
And he thinks us liters are bad...
 
2010-02-23 09:38:26 AM  
Fluff Girl: They have turned into lolcats

LOLcats would provide more cogent commentary.
 
2010-02-23 09:38:36 AM  
Don't confuse us with facts. This is fark. We don't need no stinking facts.

/Besides, if we do need them, we can conveniently find just the ones to support our arguments on the internets.

//Or make them up on the spot.
 
2010-02-23 09:39:11 AM  
Intell I read that, I didn't believe that idiots were allowed to live here.
 
2010-02-23 09:39:35 AM  
FTA: "...objective reality does not change because you refuse to accept it. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge a wall does not change the fact that it's a wall."

MOTHERF*CKING THIS
 
2010-02-23 09:39:43 AM  
Colbert's word.

"truthiness"

Facts don't matter - what's in my heart matters.
 
2010-02-23 09:41:22 AM  
The left appeals to facts and logic.

The right appeals to emotion and fear.

/see how easy it is to make a blanket statement
//I learned it from phil
 
2010-02-23 09:41:23 AM  
WTFDYW: Welcome to FARK

Welcome to the new GOP.

REAL AMERICANS don't need no book learnin'. They think with their GUTS!

Oh god, what if the GOP learned it from FARK. that would make US responsible!!!
 
2010-02-23 09:42:09 AM  
Was this ever really the case? I mean really?

While there is a distinct lack of critical thinking courses in our education system-- at least in our high schools-- I'm pretty sure that fact checking is much much easier now than it was in my father's day, or his father's day. Also, people are generally more educated now than they were in the past.

So could it be that people tend to get nostalgic for a time they don't remember well or never even experienced.

/Misses the roaring 20's
 
2010-02-23 09:42:33 AM  
jwa007: But it is greenlit and that means that soon the little liters will be here to spew venom at each other and attempt to crush each other with logical fallacies and lies, damn lies, and statistics.


You know what claiming immunity for 5 bucks a month is?
 
2010-02-23 09:42:37 AM  
No, he is the Zeitgeist personified.

No, he's just some dipshiat crank who wrote you a letter. Most people have lives. Even people who post on Fark. True!

To listen to talk radio, to watch TV pundits, to read a newspaper's online message board, is to realize that increasingly, we are a people estranged from critical thinking, divorced from logic, alienated from even objective truth. We admit no ideas that do not confirm us, hear no voices that do not echo us, sift out all information that does not validate what we wish to believe.

So vote Democrat.
 
2010-02-23 09:42:48 AM  
make me some tea: FTA: "...objective reality does not change because you refuse to accept it. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge a wall does not change the fact that it's a wall."

MOTHERF*CKING THIS


But if it doesn't hurt when you run into the wall, is there, objectively, a wall there?
 
2010-02-23 09:43:09 AM  
No, I don't remember that. And I'm pretty sure that golden age of reason never existed.
 
2010-02-23 09:43:17 AM  
Subby's sister is a New York Thespian!
 
2010-02-23 09:43:20 AM  
ep.yimg.com
 
2010-02-23 09:43:22 AM  
VictoryCabal: After a lifetime of experience and consideration, I've come to the conclusion that there never was a golden age of reason where people carefully considered all the evidence, weighed all the facts, and then came to conclusions and formed opinions, yet were always ready to change their minds in the face of new evidence. I'm pretty sure that time never existed.

Rather, I believe people think the way they always have: They form their opinions, and then go searching for facts and other people that make them feel smart and justified for holding those opinions. Your only hope is lucking into forming the correct opinions from the start, otherwise you're condemned to a lifetime of tinfoil hats and freeper threads.


Agreed. In fact, in the past, people were quite a bit less informed than they are now. These days, there seems to be a consistent 25% of us that actively wish to live in their own little worlds regardless of the facts. And there are plenty of people perfectly happy to profit by keeping their minds satiated.

Funny about that statistic, as I remember reading that 1 out 5 people in the world carry with them some sort of personality disorder.
 
2010-02-23 09:43:23 AM  
SpectroBoy: Welcome to the new GOP.

REAL AMERICANS don't need no book learnin'.


What the fark are you talking about?
 
2010-02-23 09:43:36 AM  
Some people are comforted when "news" fits their prejudices and assures them bigotry and ignorance are virtues.

Those people flock to AM radio and FOX.
 
2010-02-23 09:44:20 AM  
GameSprocket: Subby's sister is a New York Thespian!

Not that there's anything wrong with that.
 
2010-02-23 09:44:33 AM  
Remember a time when facts settled arguments?

No.
 
2010-02-23 09:44:42 AM  
Facts still settle arguments. You just have to know when to walk away from the argument you've just won.
 
2010-02-23 09:44:42 AM  
Article is full of argumentum ad verecundiam FAIL.
 
2010-02-23 09:44:46 AM  
The government and tv will tell us what is fact. I only trust those two sources, the rest is neocon garbage!!
 
2010-02-23 09:45:09 AM  
I remember a time when legalized murder settled arguments.

Let's go back to dueling! The strongest is right!
 
2010-02-23 09:45:10 AM  
make me some tea: Funny about that statistic, as I remember reading that 1 out 5 people in the world carry with them some sort of personality disorder.

That many people have iPhones now?
 
2010-02-23 09:45:17 AM  
facts are scary

thepatriotaxe.com
thepatriotaxe.com

/now, someone will use the word "truther" as an insult
//or to insinuate that pursuing truth is "crazy"
///the chocolate ration has been increased to 25 grams
 
2010-02-23 09:45:17 AM  
Well, up to 28 posts in here... and so far,

WTFDYW: Welcome to FARK

was not only perfect for the Boobies, but it appears that many have dedicated part of their day to prove it.
 
2010-02-23 09:45:23 AM  
jwa007: WTFDYW: Welcome to FARK

Done in one.

But it is greenlit and that means that soon the little liters will be here to spew venom at each other and attempt to crush each other with logical fallacies and lies, damn lies, and statistics.


Wow, $5 a month sure does buy a high horse these days.
 
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