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(London Times)   Britain's National Health Service spent £4 million funding four homeopathic hospitals last year. Suggestion: this year, give each hospital £10, and tell them it will work better because it's diluted   (timesonline.co.uk) divider line 178
    More: Fail, NHS, MPs, homeopathy, alternative medicines, Department of Health, arsenic, active ingredients, lobby groups  
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3488 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Feb 2010 at 12:29 AM (4 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-02-22 05:58:24 PM
The placebo effect in America has made it extremely difficult for pharma companies to get drugs approved. Too many people are getting better on with the placebo's.

So if it is working, why ignore it?

/in no way buys into homeopathy personally
 
2010-02-22 06:00:39 PM
I laughed.
 
2010-02-22 06:03:45 PM
FTFA: "The cross-party group concluded that there was no evidence that homeopathic remedies work beyond the placebo affect."

This is not news. There never has been any evidence to support this type of quackery. Why the fark did they ever start to get funding in the first place?
 
2010-02-22 06:50:14 PM
mediablitz:
So if it is working, why ignore it?


because that isn't actually how it works. people are not actually getting better due to placebo effect, and placebo effect is not getting stronger, as some people claim. anybody who relies on the placebo effect to cure their cancer is likely to die. people who take homeopathic medication for their cancer are likely to die. this is why sham "medicines" need to be stamped out.
 
2010-02-22 07:02:34 PM
Would you rather send hysteric self diagnosed chronic fatigue syndrome patient home with an herbal tea or amphetamines?
 
2010-02-22 09:10:27 PM
notmtwain: Would you rather send hysteric self diagnosed chronic fatigue syndrome patient home with an herbal tea or amphetamines?

ooh ooh ooh! amphetaminesamphetaminesamphetaminesamphetaminesamphetaminesamphetaminesamphetam inesamphetaminesamphetaminesamphetaminesamphetaminesamphetaminesamphetaminesamph etaminesamphetaminesamphetaminesamphetaminesamphetaminesamphetaminesamphetamines amphetamines!
 
2010-02-22 09:29:16 PM
notmtwain: Would you rather send hysteric self diagnosed chronic fatigue syndrome patient home with an herbal tea or amphetamines?

So let us hand out sugar pills to hundreds of people in desperate need for medical attention because we have a dozen hypochondriacs in the mix?
 
2010-02-22 10:42:33 PM
Meh, lemme tell you what's gonna happen eventually (at least, in America). Someone is going to be sick ,eschew traditional medicine for homeopathic medicine, and die. Their family, realizing what pseudoscience has wrought, will not just sue for wrongful death, but convince The Man to press charges for, I don't know, what would you call that, negligent homicide? In any case, it'll be a media sensation, a bunch of arguing will happen, a bunch of morons will then be made to look like morons here on the internet, and then they'll go back to whatever idiot corner they live in, and pretend their fake medicine works while the rest of the non-retarded world ignores them and moves on.
 
2010-02-22 10:45:20 PM
ParallelUniverseParking: notmtwain: Would you rather send hysteric self diagnosed chronic fatigue syndrome patient home with an herbal tea or amphetamines?

So let us hand out sugar pills to hundreds of people in desperate need for medical attention because we have a dozen hypochondriacs in the mix?


Last week's article in Newsweek said that studies show antidepressant medicines don't work any better than placebos and might actually work less well. However, they also said that both the meds and the placebos work for about 75% of patients because people believe they work.

Again, the point is that these things work. The fact that they don't work any better than sugar pills is not relevant.

You can take away the prescription antidepressants and tell people they'll be just as well off with 20 minutes of exercise a day. Most won't believe you and will in fact get more seriously depressed.

What have you accomplished?

This is the same mechanism working for homeopathy.
 
2010-02-22 10:48:09 PM
HEADLINE of the year.
 
2010-02-22 11:19:11 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0
 
2010-02-22 11:34:28 PM
So...anyone here who is in the "if it won't hurt them, why not let it be legal" camp, please answer me this:

Should I be allowed to go into children's cancer wards and tell parents that I have a bottle of magic water that I'll sell them for $5, which will cure their baby of cancer? I mean, giving them pure water won't HURT them, right? It's a benign lie, right?

What if I get a Pentagon contract to sell flak jackets to soldiers deploying to the Middle East? And my "flak jackets" are a one-molecule thick layer of Kevlar surrounded by nice soft cotton, which I market as being "super bullet-resistant" due to the "uniplanar molecular bonding"? And I charge the government $5000 each. I mean hey, some of them might not get shot...some might...others might elect to use my jacket AND a real one. Mine doesn't HURT anyone, right?

Or if I sell bike helmets to your children which are packaged quite impressively, but which will shatter the first time the child's head contacts anything hard. Hey, most of the kids won't ever smack their helmet on the ground, right? And there's nothing STOPPING them from getting someone else's helmet. So why shouldn't I be allowed to sell mine?

Homeopathy is an expensive lie sold to gullible or desperate people. It should be a crime to sell it for the same reason that I'm not allowed to sell worthless safety equipment, magic water, shares in Ponzi schemes, etc. Because it's FARKING STEALING FROM PEOPLE. Which, at least in my worldview, is sorta bad.
 
2010-02-22 11:57:56 PM
+1
 
2010-02-23 12:31:47 AM
First they wanted to get married, now they have their own hospitals? What's next?
 
2010-02-23 12:32:50 AM
All these comments and no one mentioning socialism?

WHAT EXACTLY IS GOING ON HERE?
 
2010-02-23 12:34:17 AM
ROFL at headlinez

iz funni
 
2010-02-23 12:35:35 AM
ceebeecates4: All these comments and no one mentioning socialism?

WHAT EXACTLY IS GOING ON HERE?


We hate homeopathy much more than we hate socialism?
 
2010-02-23 12:37:40 AM
Excellent headline. Just awesome.
 
2010-02-23 12:37:53 AM
dahmers love zombie: So...anyone here who is in the "if it won't hurt them, why not let it be legal" camp, please answer me this:

Should I be allowed to go into children's cancer wards and tell parents that I have a bottle of magic water that I'll sell them for $5, which will cure their baby of cancer? I mean, giving them pure water won't HURT them, right? It's a benign lie, right?

What if I get a Pentagon contract to sell flak jackets to soldiers deploying to the Middle East? And my "flak jackets" are a one-molecule thick layer of Kevlar surrounded by nice soft cotton, which I market as being "super bullet-resistant" due to the "uniplanar molecular bonding"? And I charge the government $5000 each. I mean hey, some of them might not get shot...some might...others might elect to use my jacket AND a real one. Mine doesn't HURT anyone, right?

Or if I sell bike helmets to your children which are packaged quite impressively, but which will shatter the first time the child's head contacts anything hard. Hey, most of the kids won't ever smack their helmet on the ground, right? And there's nothing STOPPING them from getting someone else's helmet. So why shouldn't I be allowed to sell mine?

Homeopathy is an expensive lie sold to gullible or desperate people. It should be a crime to sell it for the same reason that I'm not allowed to sell worthless safety equipment, magic water, shares in Ponzi schemes, etc. Because it's FARKING STEALING FROM PEOPLE. Which, at least in my worldview, is sorta bad.


Please, go post this on reddit so I can upvote it.
 
2010-02-23 12:41:12 AM
dahmers love zombie: So...anyone here who is in the "if it won't hurt them, why not let it be legal" camp, please answer me this:

Should I be allowed to go into children's cancer wards and tell parents that I have a bottle of magic water that I'll sell them for $5, which will cure their baby of cancer? I mean, giving them pure water won't HURT them, right? It's a benign lie, right?

What if I get a Pentagon contract to sell flak jackets to soldiers deploying to the Middle East? And my "flak jackets" are a one-molecule thick layer of Kevlar surrounded by nice soft cotton, which I market as being "super bullet-resistant" due to the "uniplanar molecular bonding"? And I charge the government $5000 each. I mean hey, some of them might not get shot...some might...others might elect to use my jacket AND a real one. Mine doesn't HURT anyone, right?

Or if I sell bike helmets to your children which are packaged quite impressively, but which will shatter the first time the child's head contacts anything hard. Hey, most of the kids won't ever smack their helmet on the ground, right? And there's nothing STOPPING them from getting someone else's helmet. So why shouldn't I be allowed to sell mine?

Homeopathy is an expensive lie sold to gullible or desperate people. It should be a crime to sell it for the same reason that I'm not allowed to sell worthless safety equipment, magic water, shares in Ponzi schemes, etc. Because it's FARKING STEALING FROM PEOPLE. Which, at least in my worldview, is sorta bad.


Well said. +1 internets to you good sir.
 
2010-02-23 12:41:23 AM
darkyn: Why the fark did they ever start to get funding in the first place?

Well, it's not the government's money, now, is it?
 
2010-02-23 12:41:54 AM
notmtwain: ParallelUniverseParking: notmtwain: Would you rather send hysteric self diagnosed chronic fatigue syndrome patient home with an herbal tea or amphetamines?

So let us hand out sugar pills to hundreds of people in desperate need for medical attention because we have a dozen hypochondriacs in the mix?

Last week's article in Newsweek said that studies show antidepressant medicines don't work any better than placebos and might actually work less well. However, they also said that both the meds and the placebos work for about 75% of patients because people believe they work.

Again, the point is that these things work. The fact that they don't work any better than sugar pills is not relevant.

You can take away the prescription antidepressants and tell people they'll be just as well off with 20 minutes of exercise a day. Most won't believe you and will in fact get more seriously depressed.

What have you accomplished?

This is the same mechanism working for homeopathy.


Depressed people have been shown to have more realistic self-images than happy people.

Chicken/egg problem there.
 
2010-02-23 12:42:25 AM
Hemeopathy makes the UK look Sarah Palin grade retarded. However, it is a good way to seperate those who grasp reality from those who dont. In the states we call this evolution.
 
2010-02-23 12:43:30 AM
Glad this is finally getting some attention. It's insane how snake oil of this kind can get government support. Homeopathic 'hospitals'. Honestly. In Australia there's homeopathics in every pharmacy, and that's bad enough.
 
2010-02-23 12:44:10 AM
Oblig: Homeophathic A&E (new window)
 
2010-02-23 12:44:51 AM
mediablitz: The placebo effect in America has made it extremely difficult for pharma companies to get drugs approved. Too many people are getting better on with the placebo's.

With the placebo's what?
 
2010-02-23 12:44:58 AM
Uchiha_Cycliste: notmtwain: Would you rather send hysteric self diagnosed chronic fatigue syndrome patient home with an herbal tea or amphetamines?

ooh ooh ooh! amphetaminesamphetaminesamphetaminesamphetaminesamphetaminesamphetaminesamphetam inesamphetaminesamphetaminesamphetaminesamphetaminesamphetaminesamphetaminesamph etaminesamphetaminesamphetaminesamphetaminesamphetaminesamphetaminesamphetamines amphetamines!


Meth is a hell of a drug
/used to use it to work 2 full-time jobs, one of which was graveyard shift
//quit when I turned a sickly shade of greyish-green and started coughing up blood
///never met a meth-head over 50. Wonder why?
 
2010-02-23 12:45:25 AM
notmtwain: Last week's article in Newsweek said that studies show antidepressant medicines don't work any better than placebos and might actually work less well. However, they also said that both the meds and the placebos work for about 75% of patients because people believe they work.

I'm sorry, could you please state who conducted the peer review on this Newsweek article? Or is this simply Newsweek's usual shoddy reporting?
 
2010-02-23 12:45:31 AM
dahmers love zombie: So...anyone here who is in the "if it won't hurt them, why not let it be legal" camp, please answer me this:

Should I be allowed to go into children's cancer wards and tell parents that I have a bottle of magic water that I'll sell them for $5, which will cure their baby of cancer? I mean, giving them pure water won't HURT them, right? It's a benign lie, right?

What if I get a Pentagon contract to sell flak jackets to soldiers deploying to the Middle East? And my "flak jackets" are a one-molecule thick layer of Kevlar surrounded by nice soft cotton, which I market as being "super bullet-resistant" due to the "uniplanar molecular bonding"? And I charge the government $5000 each. I mean hey, some of them might not get shot...some might...others might elect to use my jacket AND a real one. Mine doesn't HURT anyone, right?

Or if I sell bike helmets to your children which are packaged quite impressively, but which will shatter the first time the child's head contacts anything hard. Hey, most of the kids won't ever smack their helmet on the ground, right? And there's nothing STOPPING them from getting someone else's helmet. So why shouldn't I be allowed to sell mine?

Homeopathy is an expensive lie sold to gullible or desperate people. It should be a crime to sell it for the same reason that I'm not allowed to sell worthless safety equipment, magic water, shares in Ponzi schemes, etc. Because it's FARKING STEALING FROM PEOPLE. Which, at least in my worldview, is sorta bad.


Thank you for posting this. It cannot be repeated enough. Homeopathy is entirely bullshiat. They try to slide into the herbal/nutraceutical community, but selling water to suckers should be a crime.
 
2010-02-23 12:46:23 AM
I'm hooked on homeopathic heroin.
 
2010-02-23 12:49:59 AM
cretinbob: First they wanted to get married, now they have their own hospitals? What's next?

I lol'd.
 
2010-02-23 12:51:56 AM
dahmers love zombie: Should I be allowed to go into children's cancer wards and tell parents that I have a bottle of magic water that I'll sell them for $5, which will cure their baby of cancer? I mean, giving them pure water won't HURT them, right? It's a benign lie, right?

No no no... a placebo won't work for less than $5000 in this case. There's some "buy-in" psychology at play. The efficacy goes up with price because the person has to rationalize the expenditure.
 
2010-02-23 01:05:52 AM
+1 Subby
 
2010-02-23 01:05:59 AM
Devolution in Action
 
2010-02-23 01:07:51 AM
dahmers love zombie: Or if I sell bike helmets to your children which are packaged quite impressively, but which will shatter the first time the child's head contacts anything hard. Hey, most of the kids won't ever smack their helmet on the ground, right? And there's nothing STOPPING them from getting someone else's helmet. So why shouldn't I be allowed to sell mine?

Your point is still made, but bike helmets are actually designed to shatter, distributing the impact energy away from the skull. ;-)
 
2010-02-23 01:09:38 AM
darkyn: Why the fark did they ever start to get funding in the first place?

Because the Queen Mother was a firm believer in homeopathic medicine - she was one of its strongest supporters. Somewhere way back when she probably convinced someone hoping for a knighthood that it would be a good thing to fund a hospital or two...
 
2010-02-23 01:15:04 AM
Well, let's see:
1L of water is 1000g
Molecular mass of H2O=18
Thus there's 1000g/18=55.55 moles
Avogadro's Number= 6.022e23 molecular masses/mole

55.55 moles * 6.022e23 =3.345e25 molecules of H2O/liter

Typical 10g (10ml) bottle of homeopathic substance=3.345e23 molecules of H2O

The homeopathic rating scale:
1X - 1:10 (1e-1)
2X 1C 1:100 (1e-2)
6X 3C 10^−6 (1e-6)
8X 4C 10^−8 (1e-8)
12X 6C 10^−12 (1e-12)
24X 12C 10^−24 (1e-24)

Why is this important?

Water can only be divided so far, because you can't have less than a molecule of something. By 12C, it's unlikely that the entire bottle contains a single molecule of the claimed substance on the label.
30C is THE common dilution for homeopathic "medicine". By this point, you'd have to drink a swimming pool of what's in the bottle to get a single molecule of what's on the label. Never mind that no one has explained how a single molecule would have an observable effect on the body. It's all water. Made "magic" by some unspecified means. It does not actually contain any of the substance on the label, so why they think that label's meaningful is anybody's guess.
 
2010-02-23 01:16:13 AM
alkhemy: darkyn: Why the fark did they ever start to get funding in the first place?

Because the Queen Mother was a firm believer in homeopathic medicine - she was one of its strongest supporters. Somewhere way back when she probably convinced someone hoping for a knighthood that it would be a good thing to fund a hospital or two...


Also, that vacuous docile limp wristed son of hers. He also likes homeopathy.
 
2010-02-23 01:18:02 AM
JamesSirBensonMum: Oblig: Homeophathic A&E (new window)

Came for this. Was slightly disappointed 10 more people haven't posted it
 
2010-02-23 01:18:26 AM
The Fark Empiricists (tm) seem to forget that modern science is constantly being updated with new ideas and methods of testing. I hang out with a number of published PhD biologists and medical researchers here in New York (been dating one for a couple of years). They are all more open-minded about what science doesn't yet know (and can't accurately test for yet), than the loudmouth denunciators I see here and elsewhere, who are so certain that nothing can be true beyond the current limitations of science.

In past centuries many scoffed-at ideas turned out to have merit, e.g. the "round earth" theory. While I'm personally agnostic on the validity of homeopathy, who's to say that in 100 years we won't find proof of its efficacy? Sure, it could also be partly or entirely placebo, but if you read up, there's still a lot we don't yet know about the placebo effect too. Meanwhile, keep on shouting about scams and quacks. Future generations will laugh at the beliefs of medical science and its officially licensed practitioners, way back in 2010.

/not a homeopathy apologist
//see above -- flame retardant
 
2010-02-23 01:19:14 AM
Homeopathy as a whole just doesn't work.

No.

It doesn't.

Yes, it's good to eat fresh fruits and veggies and take any vitamins you might need. And sure, meditation can help lower your stress levels and make you feel a bit better. There's lots of natural health remedies you can take and they just might make your life a bit more comfortable, but feeling good and drinking tea won't cure cancer or excise infected tissue. It's not even likely to halt the common cold. That's just how biology and chemistry works.

The reason why our modern western medicine is so prevalent throughout the world is because IT WORKS.
 
2010-02-23 01:25:43 AM
c2.api.ning.com
 
2010-02-23 01:27:00 AM
You've got a degree in baloney!
 
2010-02-23 01:28:11 AM
cretinbob: First they wanted to get married, now they have their own hospitals? What's next?

Animal Hosipitals?


Calling Dr. Bob...
 
2010-02-23 01:31:38 AM
notmtwain: ParallelUniverseParking: notmtwain: Would you rather send hysteric self diagnosed chronic fatigue syndrome patient home with an herbal tea or amphetamines?

So let us hand out sugar pills to hundreds of people in desperate need for medical attention because we have a dozen hypochondriacs in the mix?

Last week's article in Newsweek said that studies show antidepressant medicines don't work any better than placebos and might actually work less well. However, they also said that both the meds and the placebos work for about 75% of patients because people believe they work.

Again, the point is that these things work. The fact that they don't work any better than sugar pills is not relevant.

You can take away the prescription antidepressants and tell people they'll be just as well off with 20 minutes of exercise a day. Most won't believe you and will in fact get more seriously depressed.

What have you accomplished?

This is the same mechanism working for homeopathy.


dude you're farking things up
 
2010-02-23 01:32:45 AM
Edipis: people who take homeopathic medication for their cancer are likely to die. this is why sham "medicines" need to be stamped out.

Based on what you say, they will stamp themselves out. It sounds like this problem will just solve itself.

/Darwin: our last, best hope!
 
2010-02-23 01:32:52 AM
TreeHugger: In past centuries many scoffed-at ideas turned out to have merit, e.g. the "round earth" theory. While I'm personally agnostic on the validity of homeopathy, who's to say that in 100 years we won't find proof of its efficacy?

I'm not a doctor, but I can tell you that the "round earth" theory is not a good analogy because as early as the time of the Roman Republic (if not earlier), not only was it known that the earth was round, its circumference was estimated to within about a hundred miles of its actual size. The "flat earth" dogma didn't take hold again until medieval times, when the church took Aristotle's theories, including the belief in a flat earth, as absolute truth.
 
2010-02-23 01:33:32 AM
Best post on the Fark frontpage (and I'm very glad it made it there).
 
2010-02-23 01:35:23 AM
British Comedians Mitchell and Webb made fun of this very situation in their show. :)

That Mitchell and Webb Look: Homeopathic A&E (new window)
 
2010-02-23 01:44:30 AM
TreeHugger: The Fark Empiricists (tm) seem to forget that modern science is constantly being updated with new ideas and methods of testing. I hang out with a number of published PhD biologists and medical researchers here in New York (been dating one for a couple of years). They are all more open-minded about what science doesn't yet know (and can't accurately test for yet), than the loudmouth denunciators I see here and elsewhere, who are so certain that nothing can be true beyond the current limitations of science.

I'm sure that if you actually hang out with all the scientists you say you do, they'll tell you that the way science advances is by accumulating evidence and testing empirical claims. You can yammer all day long about the banal fact that science doesn't know everything (and who the hell is saying otherwise?), but if you're going to claim that something works, you need to be able to prove that it does.

The reason that the "Fark Empiricists" are sneering at homeopathy is because it makes makes wild claims that are incredibly dubious, and it fails to support them with any actual evidence. It is pure, faith-based medicine based on a theory that is demonstrably false which makes it is the very definition of pseudoscience and quakery.

// Yes, yes... you aren't an apologist for homeopathy. Whatever.
 
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