FTA: "Seems like the city ... is overpaying its workers," Shirlee Kelley says. "I think the salaries have to come down to be more even with what the private sector is paying."

I want to punch this woman in the face. Multiple times. I'm going to wager that teachers and trash collectors in Colorado farking Springs are not exactly raking in the moolah, and the only people who would make this case are "private sector" folks who think everyone makes $200K just like they do.

FlashHarry: hmm... maybe saudi arabia is no longer the conservative mecca, so to speak. though i'd wager they're still tougher on crime and women who refuse to know their place than the good citizens of colorado springs.

Cute. Call me when you car gets stolen by a brown person that steals your taxes. I actually like the fact that they are cracking down on govt officials and the pay. I have been unlucky enough to have a (sh)city job for three years and it seems like the older and meaner you are, the longer you stay. And while we are at it, it doesn't take 4 guys to stand around and watch the one person operating the backhoe. You'd think if they were really smart they would disable the backhoe so they could dig ditches, but I literally had to bribe my coworkers in Georgia to pick up a shovel for a cigarette. Yes, yes. I did tell them all that they would die within 8 miles of where they were born before I left. No one said a farkin word that day. I still like to mess with them via email (city is so slack that SEVEN years later my username & pwd still work) and send them on "field trips" as I call them to keep them in check and busy at least. I'm with the dumb residents of colorado springs and only wish it would spread to federal taxes. That would cut down on pork barrel a grand bit. So yeah, go fark yourselves city/county/state workers. You are ALL magnificent pieces of shiat and if I currently had the means I would send flowers to all of your wives/husbands with another name. Bad enough you are human shiat, but to have one turd hate another turd is funny.

windstrider: Seriously. We hear all the time that public sector employees make too much money compared to their private sector counterparts, but is that truly the case in Colorado Springs? Are the city government employees making too much money?

The issue, at least around my area, is that when times are good and the economy is going gangbusters, private businesses are giving fat sweet raises, and no one bothers to notice that the people in the public sector are still getting COLA or perhaps only slightly more.

Particularly for unionized gigs this is true, because the city and state know that they're locking themselves in for the length of the contract, so want to be prudent about promises. Locally, the state has been broke and stiffing on payments for a while so that employees got NO RAISES - but the private sector was still getting their raises. No one in the private sector really bothered to notice the public sector.

But then the economy heads into the shiatter, and private businesses start giving less raises or even laying people off. The public sector, though, keeps going along as it has - though not this year, this year the public sector is insituting furloughs and outright pay cuts, and the public sector has had a policy of hiring freezes and "don't replace retiring people" for a while now.

But there's not huge layoffs. So what happens? All of a sudden the private sector employees start screaming bloody murder about the "sweet deal" that the public sector employees have, with the pension and very stable contracts.

You'd think maybe they should have saved for a rainy day back when they were getting their sweet sweet raises and laughing at us chumps in the public sector. But did they? No, of course not.

In general, when it comes to skilled work or technical work, you earn less in the public sector, but you have more stability and delayed benefits (pension, good health insurance, etc). People CHOOSE that tradeoff.

But in classic "grass is always greener" fashion, people only notice to scream about it when they're on the downside.

queezyweezel: hipster_slayer: FlashHarry: hmm... maybe saudi arabia is no longer the conservative mecca, so to speak. though i'd wager they're still tougher on crime and women who refuse to know their place than the good citizens of colorado springs.

Cute. Call me when you car gets stolen by a brown person that steals your taxes. I actually like the fact that they are cracking down on govt officials and the pay. I have been unlucky enough to have a (sh)city job for three years and it seems like the older and meaner you are, the longer you stay. And while we are at it, it doesn't take 4 guys to stand around and watch the one person operating the backhoe. You'd think if they were really smart they would disable the backhoe so they could dig ditches, but I literally had to bribe my coworkers in Georgia to pick up a shovel for a cigarette. Yes, yes. I did tell them all that they would die within 8 miles of where they were born before I left. No one said a farkin word that day. I still like to mess with them via email (city is so slack that SEVEN years later my username & pwd still work) and send them on "field trips" as I call them to keep them in check and busy at least. I'm with the dumb residents of colorado springs and only wish it would spread to federal taxes. That would cut down on pork barrel a grand bit. So yeah, go fark yourselves city/county/state workers. You are ALL magnificent pieces of shiat and if I currently had the means I would send flowers to all of your wives/husbands with another name. Bad enough you are human shiat, but to have one turd hate another turd is funny.

1. Paragraphs. Use them.

2. WTF kind of rant was that?

Some people hated Kerouac for his stream of consciousness writing style, but you don't realize how difficult it is until you see it done poorly.

queezyweezel: Epic fail.

Good point. I guess Ft. Collins is a great place after all.

HeartBurnKid: somedoctorguy: Uncontrolled government spending is a disaster. Look at California. Politicians need to stop treating their constituents like an ATM.

If that's the message you took away from California, you're sadly mistaken. The problem here is that, through the referendum process, the voters treat the government like an ATM.

NO. After proposition 13, almost every citizen proposition has been thrown out or gutted by legal challenges after. On the other hand, when big business slips a fast one in by marketing it one way, but having tons of fine print benefitting business, no citizens' group could possibly have the funds to challenge it in court. Our democracy has become a juristocracy.

House of Tards: You're lazy and dishonest.

Really? Please cite your references.

My point was that my job required far more in terms of education and training than the landscaping job I mentioned, yet they were relatively pampered in the government job economy.

"Lazy and dishonest"? You have no farking idea who or what you're talking about, so unless you can come up with some supporting evidence, you should probably shut the fark up. Oh, it wasn't a "summer camp job", retard. It was a full-time occupation; one that I'm certain you wouldn't last a week at.

bulldg4life: queezyweezel: 1. Paragraphs. Use them.

2. WTF kind of rant was that?

I've tried NASCAR driver names, Beatles songs, and dog breeds...and I've got nothing.

Maybe StopArrestingMe can give some insight.

I just tried Big Lebowski (yes, yes), but that didn't work either.

buckler: My point was that my job required far more in terms of education and training than the landscaping job I mentioned, yet they were relatively pampered in the government job economy.

Something else - this idea that somehow pay should be determined by who is more "deserving" or more "educated" or whatever it is, is certainly not a free-market idea.

If they can find someone to do your job for your pay (and they did, because you took the gig) then it's a fair wage, according to the free market.

If it's hard to find people willing to pump out toilets, the wage for that job will rise, regardless of how "deserving" you think the job is.

Mind, I'm not in favor of a pure "let the market decide" approach myself, but I find it amusing when strident free-market ideologues suddenly bring up the idea that just due to some nature of the work, certain jobs "should" pay more than others.

House of Tards: Comparisons don't work that way!

You don't compare a Youth Counselor to a Landscaper 3. Well, you do, because you're still feeling like a victim from your summer camp job from 20 years ago.

However real adult people who look for facts, not to avenge a petty grievance would compare your youth counselor job to one from a private day camp. The landscaper job would be compared to a job with a private landscaping contractor or the groundskeeping staff for a private office park.

You aren't the only person who has ever applied for a job buckler, you precious little snowflake, you. Though if you do all tasks as well as you compare things, I sure as shiat wouldn't hire you. You're lazy and dishonest.

Not taking sides here, but did you just equate a government youth counselor job with a day camp counselor job? Are you fecking insane? Comparisons don't work that way indeed.

buckler: House of Tards: You're lazy and dishonest.

Really? Please cite your references.

My point was that my job required far more in terms of education and training than the landscaping job I mentioned, yet they were relatively pampered in the government job economy.

"Lazy and dishonest"? You have no farking idea who or what you're talking about, so unless you can come up with some supporting evidence, you should probably shut the fark up. Oh, it wasn't a "summer camp job", retard. It was a full-time occupation; one that I'm certain you wouldn't last a week at.

Your youth counselor job had lower pay because it's generally a spring board for higher paying jobs. It's why highly trained and intelligent law students don't get jack to work their asses off as law clerks.

The landscaper gets nothing to add to his career from the landscaping job. It is a simple pay for service.

When I was 20 I made $11 an hour as an engineering intern while dropouts on the line were making $15. I was smarter and more qualified, but it's generally expected that that's how it works when you intern.

That's why the two things are not a good comparison.

buckler: House of Tards: OscarTamerz: The public sector at all levels of government pay multiples of what the private sector jobs pay. Here in California we have police and prison guards making over $200,000 per year but the salaries are sacrosanct and even Ahhnuld isn't proposing an across the board salary cut despite the fact we're billions in the hole. At some point we'll have to but it will probably require some catastrophic event like getting rid of all the illegal alien payouts AKA Proposition 187.

Acoording to people who have actually taken the time to study these things (new window), you are making things up.

Well, according to people having actually experienced it, you're full of shiat. When I was a government Youth Counselor, I made 10.50 an hour. The opening wage for the job was 7.00 an hour. To do this job, you had to undergo an extensive criminal background checks, participate in intensive training, get state certification, be CPR and first-aid certified, report for periodic in-service training to maintain certification, and display appropriate professional behavior. This is without any benefits at all. In contrast, the requirements for "Landscaper 3" (the guys who ride the lawnmowers in the park) are "ability to read, write, and follow instructions, eighth-grade education". They made half again as much as me, with full benefits. So yeah, I can at least agree that some elements of city government can be pared down, cost-wise.

The funny part is that you point to the landscaper as the obviously-overpaid government employee, while completely dismissing the counter-example you mention in the same post -- namely, yourself.

House of Tards:

You don't compare a Youth Counselor to a Landscaper 3. Well, you do, because you're still feeling like a victim from your summer camp job from 20 years ago.

Let me add this: I do, in fact, compare them. Not because I feel like a victim, as you cavalierly state, but because we worked for the same organization. One job requires extensive ability and training (mine), and one job does not (theirs). I worked with these guys on a special project, and they spent about 80 percent of their time smoking, joking and sleeping in the bay while I worked my ass off. If anything, they deserve minimum wage.

The average city employee salary is mid-sixties. Not too bad for city work. Add in the lucrative retirement plans, extra holidays and early retirement and you have yourself a sweetheart deal. But yeah - lets turn off the streetlights...

Link (new window)

HeartBurnKid: The funny part is that you point to the landscaper as the obviously-overpaid government employee, while completely dismissing the counter-example you mention in the same post -- namely, yourself.

I'm willing to listen. What in fact do you mean?

buckler: HeartBurnKid: The funny part is that you point to the landscaper as the obviously-overpaid government employee, while completely dismissing the counter-example you mention in the same post -- namely, yourself.

I'm willing to listen. What in fact do you mean?

Well, it's pretty obvious from the tone of your post that you feel your various trainings, certifications, hard work, etc. were worth a hell of a lot more than $10.50 an hour, and you were jealous of the landscapers because they made more money than you without bringing as much to the table. In other words, you were an underpaid government worker.

Rapmaster2000: buckler: House of Tards: You're lazy and dishonest.

Really? Please cite your references.

My point was that my job required far more in terms of education and training than the landscaping job I mentioned, yet they were relatively pampered in the government job economy.

"Lazy and dishonest"? You have no farking idea who or what you're talking about, so unless you can come up with some supporting evidence, you should probably shut the fark up. Oh, it wasn't a "summer camp job", retard. It was a full-time occupation; one that I'm certain you wouldn't last a week at.

Your youth counselor job had lower pay because it's generally a spring board for higher paying jobs...

I concede that. I eventually moved up in the hierarchy to supervise other counselors, but I didn't want to go further than that (although it was offered) because I felt a bond with the kids, and thought I could do much more concretely good work by being with them directly instead of being in a cube somewhere. Yes, this limited my pay, and I understood that. I lobbied the government to increase pay and provide benefits for my colleagues and I, and looked into unionization, but neither effort returned positive results.

It's not a streetlight.

WelldeadLink: In other news, UFO sighting in Colorado Springs suddenly drop.

At least they have the pictures as evidence!

Wait, I thought that since Focus on the Family was in Colorado Springs, JAAAAAAAYYYYYSSSUUUUSSS was going to save them? I mean, I remember the parable with the fishes and the loaves; so maybe some bus routes and street lights can come from God?

I wish they would do this where I live. I live downtown. For the past ten years I have thought about shooting out two street lights outside my apartment. Its so bright I can see everything in my apartment in the middle of the "night", even with the curtains drawn.

It took me two weeks to get used to this, now it only bothers me on a rare occasion. However, when I am lucky enough to have a young lady spend the night I get to hear complaints about the light levels the next morning.

queezyweezel: Likwit: queezyweezel: Epic fail.

Good point. I guess Ft. Collins is a great place after all.

Less crime, much better recreation opportunities when you take Horsetooth reservoir, Poudre valley and RMNP into account.
Much better school districts, higher employment.
more diverse retail scene
One of the best health care systems in the country (PVMC).
Rated best city to live in in 06, and #2 in 08.
better parks and rec system throughout the city.


What does Co Springs bring to the table that FC doesnt have? 7 falls? I've lived in/around both and would take FC over CS any day of the week.

Anyone who thinks Ft. Collins is really the best city to live in the entire United States, or even top ten, is absolutely retarded. I never actually said Colorado Springs is better than Ft. Collins. In fact, I went out of my way to say it isn't. However, the more I think about it, the more I think CS is better.

You can't count RMNP because it's over an hour away (though it's an awesome drive from there) and half of it's closed. If you're looking to live close to Estes Park, you'd be better off in Loveland or Boulder. Plus, there's stuff worth seeing south of Colorado Springs that are just as good. I don't know where you're getting the impression that there's a more diverse retail scene. Actually, I'm not even sure I know what the fark that means.

Fort Collins blows. Everyone I know that went to CSU thinks so and I definitely think so (though I may have a Boulder bias).

I wouldn't call the Reagan era shiatty by all means... My dad bought a bunch of penny stock and ignored my GOOG IPO. I think that if you made below $45,000 in the eighties and didn't have any real shareholding (ie rented or mortgaged)in the country they nixed you. Trickle Down economics is dumb to begin with because it calls on people to be altruistic or complete dumbassess. People inherently don't give unless you have a declining propensity to cut down ALL forests in 20M worth of coal territory (all you have to do is look at goog earth and laugh with the dumb monkeys cutting down over 2/3rds of their rain forest for coal (lmao), waiting until the world climate improves and shows these idiots that they need to have a detection service that is not US led. That is my challenge to the world to not only rebroadcast the garbege but to make it a tad more reliable. A recent news article,:Guns upset Iranis. Yeah right. All I have seen this disco biscuit do is lie lie lie like the pathetic Ms13 losers that bring their cross-country and money war here and expect the people who pay taxes to fork it over. Well imho you are already illegal, wanna add charges to that instead of getting into a car wreck and making the white person pay for your illegal no insurance buddies to tumble out nad charging the lifetime payer for "undocumented coverage" because they are good people. Get this though, illegals, no one likes you! Least of all ALLL of the others whose heads you stepped on to STEAL you way into this country. I can only hope you all get sent back home on a maglight. You are complete losers and I am frothing to turn your worthless asses in. Telling a gringo no that understands spanish (why are white guys the focus of these attacks?) and I hope you all go die in a fire you scumsucking pieces of shiat.

HeartBurnKid: buckler: HeartBurnKid: The funny part is that you point to the landscaper as the obviously-overpaid government employee, while completely dismissing the counter-example you mention in the same post -- namely, yourself.

I'm willing to listen. What in fact do you mean?

Well, it's pretty obvious from the tone of your post that you feel your various trainings, certifications, hard work, etc. were worth a hell of a lot more than $10.50 an hour, and you were jealous of the landscapers because they made more money than you without bringing as much to the table. In other words, you were an underpaid government worker.

I wouldn't say "underpaid" so much as "inequitably-paid". Whether that means I made too little, or they too much, I can't say.

buckler: House of Tards:

You don't compare a Youth Counselor to a Landscaper 3. Well, you do, because you're still feeling like a victim from your summer camp job from 20 years ago.

Let me add this: I do, in fact, compare them. Not because I feel like a victim, as you cavalierly state, but because we worked for the same organization. One job requires extensive ability and training (mine), and one job does not (theirs). I worked with these guys on a special project, and they spent about 80 percent of their time smoking, joking and sleeping in the bay while I worked my ass off. If anything, they deserve minimum wage.


Wait, they got paid more for doing a lot less and they are the dumb ones?

Well, it's pretty obvious from the tone of your post that you feel your various trainings, certifications, hard work, etc. were worth a hell of a lot more than $10.50 an hour,

Also, because the training and certification went to YOU and not the city, they were part of your compensation. You got the training for free and could market it in the private sector if you wished.

I do agree, however, that in many cases, it seems like the educated are underpaid, but I understand it is a free market thing.

So I guess while all those evangelicals were praying for god to make them individually wealthy, they forgot to throw in a good word for the community in general. Hey "prosperity gospel" farkwads, where's your farking god now.

It sees there are more people in this thread that are upset with what is happening in Colorado Springs than people who are upset about it and live in Colorado Springs.

CtrlAltDelete: All the better to see the stars.

1000X THIS

Harryhausen: buckler: House of Tards:

You don't compare a Youth Counselor to a Landscaper 3. Well, you do, because you're still feeling like a victim from your summer camp job from 20 years ago.

Let me add this: I do, in fact, compare them. Not because I feel like a victim, as you cavalierly state, but because we worked for the same organization. One job requires extensive ability and training (mine), and one job does not (theirs). I worked with these guys on a special project, and they spent about 80 percent of their time smoking, joking and sleeping in the bay while I worked my ass off. If anything, they deserve minimum wage.


Wait, they got paid more for doing a lot less and they are the dumb ones?

Oh, they were very smart when it came to scamming the system. What they needed was a manager willing to kick their asses and make them earn their pay.

I'm not a criminal, nor do I condone crime in any way, but I'd rather face a bunch of yokels puffed up by the 2nd amendment than trained cops any day. This would be a gangsters paradise. Like Detroit!

JeffreyScott: However, when I am lucky enough to have a young lady spend the night I get to hear complaints about the light levels the next morning.

not enough chloroform.

/wait..what?

Tyee: It sees there are more people in this thread that are upset with what is happening in Colorado Springs than people who are upset about it and live in Colorado Springs.

It's more like watching bemusedly from the sidelines at the grand experiment.

The Slate article (pops) linked above pretty much says it all. That one happens to be criticizing Scott Brown but he's one of many - people keep saying "cut the fat" or "yeah I'll reduce waste and solve all the problems" but NEVER being able to show a single way to do that, or even promise any concrete cuts to get close.

Then when they realize the fat isn't there, some of them (like Colorado Springs in TFA) start slicing into more basic spending, and sure enough, citizens complain, because what's being cut is real services that THEY USE. What? It was supposed to be all the waste on those other people.

FWIW, while Republicans seem to be a bit more married to the talking points of this type of policy, Democrats do the same thing because they too have bought into this national delusion that somehow taxes are evil, taxes are stealing and please, please don't criticize us for maybe saying they're not ALL bad!

Closely related Democratic version of this same myth is all the various "sin taxes." They want to raise taxes, but they know they'll be eaten alive by some GOP guy (in the general) or even just another primary opponent if they dare to suggest raising the income tax or other basic taxes, so they pretend that they can raise fees or have more gambling boats or tax cigarettes, and that will solve the problem - get "those other people" to pay for things.

But the basic bottom line fact is, the numbers never add up.

SlothB77: waste voters dollars, then cut the essential services voters need. yeah, that'll make people love your town.

So what would you have cut instead?

Everybody cries out for spending cuts, but there's an eerie silence when one asks, "Cut what?"

spidermann: Because of the badass health insurance.

Not just that, but also (usually) nice vacation and sick-leave packages, some sort of pension, and best of all, very generous warning times in case a layoff does happen. Stability is important for a lot of people.

But absolutely, people trade higher pay for those things.

This idea that somehow people can have all the potential for windfalls that you get by living risky, and yet still have the steady and secure gig, is what's silly.

If you're earning more in your paycheck in lieu of the better insurance, you're supposed to be saving and paying for that stuff on your own. But people don't, they just whine about the guy who has those things, without seeing what sacrifices that guy is making.

FlyingLizardOfDoom: One guy quoted in the article had a point. There is no reason why government workers should be paid so much more than private sector workers performing nearly the same function. One of the biggest problems cities/municipalities/states have in keeping their budjets in line is those damned public employees unions. They need to reduce payroll and streamline services.

But, like all other govt. entities, they will blame the ones who pay their salaries for not "paying up" in hard times.

With Unions, a person can make a livable wage. Further, a person making $10-$12 an hour doesn't pay much in taxes. For a government policy, Good luck with that.

FlyingLizardOfDoom: Unions at the lowest levels of employment is why people can't find jobs. We should be making it easier for companies to hire, not harder. CBA's screw the hiring budjet.

Conservatism is how people trick the gullible into becoming poor. Their strategy is to obstruct anything meaningful, prevent the government from functioning properly in anyway then blame government for not working. In the process, they help the top 1% control 90% of the wealth. There are 30 years of evidence supporting this behavior since the clown Raygun. The middle class is now gone. The United States is now a country of haves and have-nots. I am still waiting for Raygun's Trickle Down Economics to kick in. What I find funny is poor Republicans supporting tax-cuts for the rich. LOL.

Dire: House of Tards: Comparisons don't work that way!

You don't compare a Youth Counselor to a Landscaper 3. Well, you do, because you're still feeling like a victim from your summer camp job from 20 years ago.

However real adult people who look for facts, not to avenge a petty grievance would compare your youth counselor job to one from a private day camp. The landscaper job would be compared to a job with a private landscaping contractor or the groundskeeping staff for a private office park.

You aren't the only person who has ever applied for a job buckler, you precious little snowflake, you. Though if you do all tasks as well as you compare things, I sure as shiat wouldn't hire you. You're lazy and dishonest.

Not taking sides here, but did you just equate a government youth counselor job with a day camp counselor job? Are you fecking insane? Comparisons don't work that way indeed.

Yes, it looks, the guy confused someone who works as a counselor helping people with their problems with a person who helps kids glue popsicle stick crafts together during the summer.

House of Tards apparently requires a special needs counselor since he named himself after the group home he lives in.

TigerStar: What I find funny is poor Republicans supporting tax-cuts for the rich. LOL.

The trick is to get them to imagine that of course, they will BE the rich someday, and therefore they should be against anything that will take their money away (or even shave it slightly) when that "inevitable" day comes.

Add to that the strategery of portraying all "business" as the hardworking small town shopowner, even in towns where the last vestige of actual independent business blew away long ago, and similarly portraying "agriculture" as the small town farmer who just wants to keep the farm in the family.

In all of these enterprises, actual numbers are anathema - don't crunch the odds to see just what the likelihood of your striking it rich is, or bother to notice that you can put pretty hefty exemptions on the "death tax" or whatever the evil tax of the moment is to shield the actual little shopowners and family farms from it.

And finally, divide and conquer whenever possible. You want people divided by every line possible, you don't want them noticing that actually when it comes to the big line (standard of living) they've really got more in common with each other. If possible, get them angry about the people freeloading BELOW them, never let the eyes wander upward.

FlashHarry: hmm... maybe saudi arabia is no longer the conservative mecca, so to speak. though i'd wager they're still tougher on crime and women who refuse to know their place than the good citizens of colorado springs.

In Saudi Arabia 100% of its citizens by law are Muslim with two of its cities completely closed off to non-muslims all together. I know on fark hyperbole is common, but come on.

GaryPDX: dennysgod: But, but taxes are for commies to control the people and not for things like street lights, road repairs, schools, military, police, fire department, library, and water/sanitary services.

"The way to crush the bourgeoisie is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation." -Vladimir Lenin

You walk into your local convenience store and head to the cold walk-in beer room in the back. The choice is overwhelming. Budweiser, Michelob, Bud Light, Busch Light, Stella Artois, Grolsch, Kirin,Tsingtao, Corona, Negra Modelo, Rolling Rock, Widmer, Miller and Coors. In fact, all of these beers are controlled by two companies. MillerCoors under the direction of South African Breweries (SAB) and AnheuserBusch InBev. Two multinational corporations controlling the beer choices of 300 million Americans. What bankers have done is they privatized all of their profits and socialized all of their risks.