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(Daily Mail)   Government wants to make sure young students are taught about all faiths, including the ones where plants have souls and the dead must be eaten by vultures   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 55
    More: Strange, religious education, non-violence, minority faiths, Judaism, Hinduism, faith, Buddhists, secular  
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3256 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Jan 2010 at 12:09 AM (4 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-01-29 06:31:21 PM
Here's an idea! Why not have the government stay out of religion, and religion stay out of government. Weird, I know, but. . .


.
 
2010-01-29 06:34:39 PM
DistendedPendulusFrenulum: Why not have the government stay out of religion, and religion stay out of government.

That's absurd. The Christians have told us for years how taking God out of schools causes all the ills of society. I'm sure they'll be the first ones in line to champion putting 8 gods into schools, just think of how awesome things will be then!
 
2010-01-29 06:48:10 PM
DistendedPendulusFrenulum: Here's an idea! Why not have the government stay out of religion, and religion stay out of government. Weird, I know, but. . .

If kids learned about religion in a blanket sense rather than the piss poor education we get now, maybe they wouldn't be stupefied to the point of joining cults, becoming internet atheist trolls, or killing for god. Most of the problem with religion stems from the fact that only the rare few with the calling study more than one.

Giving people an overview of how similar all of them are and the timelines the formed in lets people actually learn about history, philosophy and politics. Hell, my first Buddhism class taught me more about Asian history than 12 years of public schooling and 4 years of university level education just by going over the time periods in which Buddhism entered each country.
 
2010-01-29 06:55:07 PM
Would love to see anyone opposing this curriculum prove they have a soul.
Wait. There are only 8 Gods?

/doesn't think any god belongs in school,... or government.
 
2010-01-29 06:56:30 PM
itsdan: DistendedPendulusFrenulum: Why not have the government stay out of religion, and religion stay out of government.

That's absurd. The Christians have told us for years how taking God out of schools causes all the ills of society. I'm sure they'll be the first ones in line to champion putting 8 gods into schools, just think of how awesome things will be then!


What you don't understand is that government is no good a defending the country, spending taxes wisely, helping the poor in a meaningful way, or managing healthcare. Government even farks up managing motor vehicle ownership and regulation. Thus, it is uniquely suited to validating religion!

.
 
2010-01-29 08:35:25 PM
strange!
they should stick to normal ones involving turning water into wine and loaves to fishes, immaculate conception and resurrection, burning bushes that talk, parting seas,and boats that carry a male and female of every single species to safety instead. Because, that other stuff is just strange!
 
2010-01-30 12:05:47 AM
for a nanny state with an officially sanctioned religion, i find their tolerance interesting
 
2010-01-30 12:11:17 AM
This thread is gonna suck, too.
 
2010-01-30 12:14:05 AM
I think this is an awesome idea.

I can't wait for the discussion of how my irrational belief is way better than your irrational belief.
 
2010-01-30 12:14:18 AM
Being taught about religion is important, just like being taught about history, literature, politics, finance, social issues etc. These are things that have important influence on the world the child will live in.
 
2010-01-30 12:14:18 AM
Megain: for a nanny state with an officially sanctioned religion, i find their tolerance interesting

not when you consider their tolerance for poor dentition.
 
2010-01-30 12:14:30 AM
Tax the churches now.
 
2010-01-30 12:15:08 AM
and the dead must be eaten by vultures

That's Zoroastrianism, and it's legal. And very ecologically sound, I must say.
 
2010-01-30 12:18:05 AM
and the dead must be eaten by vultures


We're gonna need lots more vultures.

Maybe a whole boat full.
 
2010-01-30 12:18:21 AM
So, they also teach Pastafarianism?
 
2010-01-30 12:18:36 AM
Do people still believe in a sky daddy?
 
2010-01-30 12:19:46 AM
Good for them.

They should teach religious texts along with other fictional books, like Stranger in a Strange Land, or Hop On Pop. And, they should have debates on who is the cooler mythical man in the sky: God, Zeus, or Galactus.
 
2010-01-30 12:21:12 AM
casey17: and the dead must be eaten by vultures

That's Zoroastrianism, and it's legal. And very ecologically sound, I must say.


It's also the method followed by the Sioux nation and IIRC the Cheyennes back in the day.
 
2010-01-30 12:22:56 AM
Imagine no religion...
 
2010-01-30 12:26:31 AM
Plants having souls!? That is hilarious! So rIdiculous. Souls belong to humans only.
 
2010-01-30 12:26:39 AM
006andahalf: casey17: and the dead must be eaten by vultures

That's Zoroastrianism, and it's legal. And very ecologically sound, I must say.

It's also the method followed by the Sioux nation and IIRC the Cheyennes back in the day.


I want it done to my body when I die. Just because I'd rather be eaten by vultures than worms.
 
2010-01-30 12:37:09 AM
You know where I learned about other religions, including the Satanic ones that offer up dead girls as sacrifices and have blood orgies?

Sunday youth study at my local catholic church

I know....
 
2010-01-30 12:39:05 AM
So considering the children are five this is basically going to boil down to "many people have many different beliefs and they're all an important part of us and worthy of respect"

Yeah, I'm sure the kids will live.
 
2010-01-30 12:39:13 AM
I think this is great. Maybe now these kids will see how crazy religion really is and that anyone can make that
crap up.
 
2010-01-30 12:40:28 AM
There's a video I saw of an Indian sect that fishes dead bodies out of the Ganges and eats them. I wonder if they'll learn about that?
 
2010-01-30 12:42:44 AM
i2.photobucket.com
APPROVES
 
2010-01-30 12:44:24 AM
If they want to support the ignorant delusion that homosexuality is OK and you can actually add a Y chromosome to you genetic code, then why not?
 
2010-01-30 12:45:26 AM
There's a huge difference between teaching kids that people have different beliefs and indoctrinating them into those beliefs.
 
2010-01-30 12:46:50 AM
Unfortunately this is pointless because the children that have the least exposure to diversity and would benefit the most from such a program (the immigrant children in the Muslim ghettos) won't be exposed to this curriculum in the widespread, hardcore Islamic schools.
 
2010-01-30 12:48:48 AM
ThematicDevice: So considering the children are five this is basically going to boil down to "many people have many different beliefs and they're all an important part of us and worthy of respect"

What if there are some which are alien and existential threats not worthy of respect..? like Mooslims.
 
2010-01-30 12:49:02 AM
www.lemonhouseproductions.com
ALSO APPROVES
 
2010-01-30 12:49:43 AM
Children aren't too stupid and when presented with a plethora of opposing viewpoints on religion I'll bet most will come to the conclusions that they can't all be right and therefore they are all imaginary. Presenting opposing viewpoints will teach them early on that their parents religion is just as farked up as the religion of some Amazonian tribe.
 
2010-01-30 12:53:03 AM
my hair is a bird
 
2010-01-30 12:57:21 AM
doglover: f kids learned about religion in a blanket sense rather than the piss poor education we get now, maybe they wouldn't be stupefied to the point of joining cults, becoming internet atheist trolls, or killing for god.

Notice how he's put atheist troll ahead of joining a cult.

/Who wants Kool-Aid?
 
2010-01-30 01:00:57 AM
006andahalf: casey17: and the dead must be eaten by vultures

That's Zoroastrianism, and it's legal. And very ecologically sound, I must say.

It's also the method followed by the Sioux nation and IIRC the Cheyennes back in the day.


Yeah, I think it's called air burial? I think it was done in areas where traditional burial was difficult due to terrain and fuel for fires was scarce. If I die rich, I'd like my body dealt with this way.

/currently planning on being donated to science
 
2010-01-30 01:08:41 AM
Russ1642: Children aren't too stupid and when presented with a plethora of opposing viewpoints on religion I'll bet most will come to the conclusions that they can't all be right and therefore they are all imaginary. Presenting opposing viewpoints will teach them early on that their parents religion is just as farked up as the religion of some Amazonian tribe.

Why do you think the Christianists in TFA are up in arms. The government's interfering with the "get them young" strategy.

/Bonus points to the Mail for implying that plants having souls is any more ridiculous than transsubstantiation
 
2010-01-30 01:08:54 AM
I don't have a problem with learning this, but I do have a big one with the age they've decided to begin it at.

Kids, actually, of that age barely have the brains to keep from walking in front of cars, though they have rich, fantasy imaginations and their ability to sort truth from fiction is not fully developed.

The better concept is to have them learn this stuff when they're cynical teens, have more active minds more based in fact, are more prone to research to find fact from fiction, are a bit more world wise and much less prone to basically blindly follow anything.

In school, in my day, we learned mainly about the Christian Religion, with references to Judaism -- since it directly relates to Christianity. We lightly touched on Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam and skimmed over minor beliefs which we considered crackpot. (Voodoo, Santarina, assorted volcano gods, the Olympians and the assorted quasi-religions popping up as cults in the 60s.)

Actually, until terrorists blew up the Twin Towers, I considered Muslims 'quaint,' had less than a layman's grasp of the religion and a National Geographic education of the people.

I've a whole different view now, and I kind of liked it when I thought them as eccentric, but basically harmless folks clinging to ancient traditions. Not as religious fanatics, more than willing to kill over things like cartoons and mode of dress. I found out that the Koran is a complex book designed to basically control almost every aspect of their lives to keep them believing and Clerics get insane over religious interpretations.

It wasn't until nearly into my 30s that I got a better understanding of the Jewish religion, learned they had fanatics also and started paying attention to Israel.

Even today I have only a base grasp of Buddhism and Hinduism, and was quite surprised when I found a clip of Buddhist monks beating the krap out of each other over the possession of a temple. Even religions historically considered pacifistic and peaceful have disputes, I guess, like every other religion on the planet.

Then there were those documentaries of Hindus, worshipping temples turned over to some monkeys with really nasty attitudes, temples turned over to rats where worshippers drank from bowls of milk left to feed the rats and the seemingly endless supply of Holy men that did things like crawl 1000 miles on their hands and knees, roll 200 miles to a temple, deliberately starve themselves to death and spout the "Wisdom Of The Universe" to anyone who would listen.

Personally, years ago, I was pretty much occupied discovering that my own religion, Christianity, was busted up into about 8 sects, which broke down into nearly countless sub-sects because, apparently, Christians can't get along with other Christians. Then I observed how different preachers and priests could manage to twist the meanings of passages in the Bible to pretty much whatever they wanted and morons, like The Branch Dividians, could actually believe that an oversexed nutcase was the embodiment of Jesus, or that a place like Jonestown could con so many people with religion into suiciding -- and forcing those reluctant to do so to drink the poison or get shot by guards, who later killed themselves.

I knew of the Mayn religion, Wiccans, Druids, devil worshippers, the Beliefs of the Original People (American Indians) and various con men, like Reverend Moon and assorted Gurus.

Though, I'd not want to expose kids under the age of 12 to all of this. Personally, I don't think they'd be ready for it. Let them enjoy the magic of childhood until the hormones cut in and they start discovering what the real world is like.
 
2010-01-30 01:13:45 AM
Ringshadow: 006andahalf: casey17: and the dead must be eaten by vultures

That's Zoroastrianism, and it's legal. And very ecologically sound, I must say.

It's also the method followed by the Sioux nation and IIRC the Cheyennes back in the day.

Yeah, I think it's called air burial? I think it was done in areas where traditional burial was difficult due to terrain and fuel for fires was scarce. If I die rich, I'd like my body dealt with this way.

/currently planning on being donated to science


The platforms are often called 'funeral scaffolds.' The idea is that the soul can escape the body and such. Some further eastern tribes in Illinois & Indiana for example (Miamis, etc.) did it in trees.
 
2010-01-30 01:16:10 AM
DuncanMhor: Why do you think the Christianists in TFA are up in arms. The government's interfering with the "get them young" strategy.

The get-them-young strategy really revolves around immersion in a single viewpoint. Strap on the blinders and exclude any outside thought. Teaching as many different religions would really help kids who are being treated like this. I like how Dawkins says that everyone doesn't believe in almost all of the Gods ever conceived by man, he just chooses to believe in one less God than they do.
 
2010-01-30 01:16:39 AM
"That's Zoroastrianism, and it's legal. And very ecologically sound, I must say."


Not to mention that many scholars actually believe that Zoroastrianism is the true fundation of Christianity. If you read about it, there are amazing similarities. It's basically Christianity before Christ arrived and horror upon horrors, it originated in what is now Iran.
 
2010-01-30 01:31:48 AM
Rik01: I found out that the Koran is a complex book designed to basically control almost every aspect of their lives to keep them believing and Clerics get insane over religious interpretations.

Except of course that the crazy controlling stuff isn't actually in the Koran; it's in the hadiths. But thanks for playing trolling.
 
2010-01-30 01:55:06 AM
konakona: Rik01: I found out that the Koran is a complex book designed to basically control almost every aspect of their lives to keep them believing and Clerics get insane over religious interpretations.

Except of course that the crazy controlling stuff isn't actually in the Koran; it's in the hadiths. But thanks for playing trolling.


The theology was misunderstood but his conclusion about Islamic theology is still correct. And by the way, Muslims that publically reject the hadiths are branded apostates which is for all purposes a death sentence under Islamic jurisprudence.
 
2010-01-30 01:56:59 AM
Russ1642: The get-them-young strategy really revolves around immersion in a single viewpoint.

Yes. That's why religious education throws a spanner in the works
 
2010-01-30 02:01:56 AM
Rik01: The better concept is to have them learn this stuff when they're cynical teens, have more active minds more based in fact, are more prone to research to find fact from fiction, are a bit more world wise and much less prone to basically blindly follow anything.

Or you could let them know there are different beliefs early and build up the complexity as they mature. Teaching children things doesn't ruin childhood, it's what childhood is for.
 
2010-01-30 02:02:05 AM
Oh, yeah, they'll know all about Jesus and Allah, but they will NEVER hear about "Bob" or the Bleeding Head Launchers Society! What is this world ,coming to, that they aren't even looking forward to the Rupture and the Land of Eternal Squirt?!? To have no knowledge of SLACK! To have no hope of smoking the ancient Tibetan holy immortality herb Habafropzipulops, or never sleep with "Connie," the Blessed Anti-Virgin...OH, TAKE ME NOW, "BOB"...(Tape self-destructs)
 
2010-01-30 02:03:52 AM
The funny part is that even kids who are in such-and-such a minority faith don't really have any clue what's going on either, so all of this is pointless because they'd just be needlessly bamboozling an entire classroom.
 
2010-01-30 07:20:56 AM
Hey, how's this for a really sensible idea: Why don't we just have a moratorium on all these religions until we can figure out which one REALLY IS the REAL ONE, and then folks so disposed would go with that one.

Who could argue with this? I mean, wouldn't it save us all a lot of bother and argie-bargie?

OK, OK, there's no shortage of folks who'd rather base their lives on superstitious, totally made up sh*t. And anybody running these things would naturally be giving up all their angles on power and influence.

OK, this is never going to work.

I'm putting my money instead on us maiming and killing ourselves all the way to paradise.
 
2010-01-30 07:54:17 AM
"The Baha'i faith teaches followers that all religions have valid origins and has laws prohibiting alcohol, drugs, adultery and party politics."

Glad somebody thinks that's a sin.
 
2010-01-30 10:14:04 AM
Rik01: I don't have a problem with learning this, but I do have a big one with the age they've decided to begin it at.

I have to agree with you. I took a couple religious classes in college since they met my degree requirements. While it would have been nice to have taken these classes in high school, five years old is way too young for this material.

The article already articulates my opinion: "This will be a crook's tour of the most trivial aspects of faiths, so toned down that it will be how different religions use water and how they use light as a symbol. Things will be taken out of context and the integrity of each faith destroyed."

The main lessons of a religious studies course would have to be absent because children that young simply cannot understand the material.
 
2010-01-30 10:45:40 AM
biglot: Hey, how's this for a really sensible idea: Why don't we just have a moratorium on all these religions until we can figure out which one REALLY IS the REAL ONE, and then folks so disposed would go with that one.

Who could argue with this? I mean, wouldn't it save us all a lot of bother and argie-bargie?

OK, OK, there's no shortage of folks who'd rather base their lives on superstitious, totally made up sh*t. And anybody running these things would naturally be giving up all their angles on power and influence.

OK, this is never going to work.

I'm putting my money instead on us maiming and killing ourselves all the way to paradise.


To be fair, religion is just a corollary to the more important, "they different, we kill them." Resources are, always have been, and always will be, limited and valuable. People will continue to fight with each other over these resources. How we divide ourselves into groups, to figure out who we fight against and with, is what makes religion look so bad.

Scenario: A group of people is starving. Their crops have been sparse for a few years and they need food badly. They have two neighboring groups, one with a similar religion, essentially the same as theirs, and one with a completely different religion. They know sharing would just dilute the food supply too much and everyone would starve. So, for the purpose of self-preservation, they attack the people with the different religion, thus ensuring their own survival.

Scenario 2: The same group of people is starving. This time, both neighboring groups have the same religion as them, but one group is of a completely different ethnicity while the other is the same as them. They attack and kill the people of a different ethnicity.

Now granted, this is a very simplified example, but I hope it illustrates my point. Man will always fight over resources, but when given a choice, will always fight against the people that are most different. If nothing else, religion can provide that difference, but so can other classifications.

In fact, here's a bonus, real-life scenario. Mexico has a larger Christian population, as a percentage, than America. But many people see them as a threat to limited labor resources, so they may be the same religion, but because they are brown, they are the enemy. If I were to move to Texas and take a job from another Texan, that would be alright, because I'm white. But as soon as they find out I'm atheist, well they have their difference and the fight is on.

Even something like the Spanish Inquisition can be stripped down using this same method. In order to vie for resources and hold on to those it had, Spain needed to unify and used Catholicism to do so. People of a different religion were used as a scapegoat to unite, because a scapegoat was needed in order to bring people together and religion was the easiest difference to exploit.
 
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