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(CNN)   Kansas jury says post 200th trimester abortion is murder   (cnn.com) divider line 423
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24419 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Jan 2010 at 12:46 PM (4 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-01-29 01:29:38 PM  
Theaetetus: Penman: Volunteer to start a life, then change your mind and end it.

I know, isn't it wonderful that we in America have the freedom to change our minds?

Nonetheless, you're actually not referring to a real situation. Most abortions aren't cases where someone says "gosh, I'd like to be pregnant," and then a few months later says "gee, I changed my mind." Most are cases where the woman has not "volunteered to start a life."
And then there's the other set - late term abortions. There, the woman hasn't "changed her mind". It's just she has to decide whether the fetus dies, or whether the fetus dies and she dies. Either way, the fetus is dead. Why do you think that the woman should die, simply for being unlucky enough to be carrying a fetus with a mutated gene? What kind of sick fark are you?


The woman chose by having unprotected sex and not taking the morning after pill. It's not rocket science. Of course the man should be held responsible as well.

And of course if the mother would die, go ahead and do the abortion. It's one life vs. another.
 
2010-01-29 01:29:43 PM  
FuelCycle: Ok so the mother gets to decide whether or not its murder... gotcha.

Go find a dictionary (if the fundies haven't gotten it taken out of the library for defining "oral sex"), look up the word "murder." In fact, look it up in several different dictionaries, and your state's criminal codes. Read all those definitions of "murder" and see if any of them correspond to what you are bleating about.

Go ahead.

We'll wait.
 
2010-01-29 01:29:55 PM  
accelerus: It amazes me that people still fall into a belief system that contradicts itself a hundred times over.

Name one belief system that doesn't.

And before you say "science," please remember that rectifying contradictions is what the scientific method is expressly designed to do.
 
2010-01-29 01:30:32 PM  
NEDM: Oh yeah, welcome back.

Cheers, really glad to see you as well

zedster: true but most writings on the matter I have seen use the fact hashem breathed life into Adam to be a lunching off point.

True, but at this point it'd be easy to raise the objection that 'Well, Adam was the first man, he couldn't exactly be born a fetus then grow up, this is why it applies to the unborn but not him'

They also use the immaculate conception to show that life begins immediately rather than 9 months laters. After all..

geoffanhorn.files.wordpress.com
 
2010-01-29 01:30:51 PM  
Good.

I'm sure freeperland is taking this well.
 
2010-01-29 01:30:59 PM  
Nick Nostril: When does fetus become babby?

When fetus is capable of surviving without assistance outside of the womb.
 
2010-01-29 01:30:59 PM  
Hang him high
 
2010-01-29 01:32:01 PM  
Penman: The woman chose by having unprotected sex and not taking the morning after pill. It's not rocket science. Of course the man should be held responsible as well.

Or the woman had protected sex and doesn't find out that it failed for several weeks, making the morning after pill moot. While not rocket science, it still seems to be beyond you.

And of course if the mother would die, go ahead and do the abortion. It's one life vs. another.

You seem to hold an interesting position... Just to verify - you're opposed to early or mid-term abortions, but in favor of late-term abortions? That is a more consistent point of view, actually.
 
2010-01-29 01:32:04 PM  
give me doughnuts: FuelCycle: Ok so the mother gets to decide whether or not its murder... gotcha.

Go find a dictionary (if the fundies haven't gotten it taken out of the library for defining "oral sex"), look up the word "murder." In fact, look it up in several different dictionaries, and your state's criminal codes. Read all those definitions of "murder" and see if any of them correspond to what you are bleating about.

Go ahead.

We'll wait.


Who needs liberal, elitist dictionaries and codes of law when you have Bronze Age wisdom?

I suggest the pro-life crowd go one step further and only use Bronze Age medicine.
 
2010-01-29 01:32:08 PM  
apeiron242:
You're not pro-life, you're anti-choice.


That's a pretty big assumption.

Let me show you exactly how moronic the 'anti-choice' label is. People make choices all the time. Even reading past that first sentence was a choice. With the trillions of choices you just made over the last 5 seconds, how on Earth could anyone claim that either they or someone else could be anti-choice? Even if you managed to gain the god-like power to decree what decisions people made and when they made them, they still choose whether or not to obey your decree.

You claim that pro-life is not the right term, since the person only applies the label to the issue of abortion, then turn around and slap a label on them that only applies to the issue of abortion.
 
2010-01-29 01:32:14 PM  
give me doughnuts: FuelCycle: Ok so the mother gets to decide whether or not its murder... gotcha.

Go find a dictionary (if the fundies haven't gotten it taken out of the library for defining "oral sex"), look up the word "murder." In fact, look it up in several different dictionaries, and your state's criminal codes. Read all those definitions of "murder" and see if any of them correspond to what you are bleating about.

Go ahead.

We'll wait.


Hey moron, talk to Theaetetus, hes the one claiming that...
 
2010-01-29 01:32:39 PM  
Tatsuma: It's 'Thou Shall Not Murder' and he most likely will interpret

that only applies to Jews killing other Jews.. you're a Jew i thought you'd know this :D

I'm just messing with ya.. take it easy

but it is true the original words in Hebrew that was used implied "Thou Shalt not kill other Jews" not "Thou Shalt not Kill"
 
2010-01-29 01:34:46 PM  
Nick Nostril: When does fetus become babby?

When instain Mother doesn't kill it
 
2010-01-29 01:35:07 PM  
mediaho: give me doughnuts: FuelCycle: Ok so the mother gets to decide whether or not its murder... gotcha.

Go find a dictionary (if the fundies haven't gotten it taken out of the library for defining "oral sex"), look up the word "murder." In fact, look it up in several different dictionaries, and your state's criminal codes. Read all those definitions of "murder" and see if any of them correspond to what you are bleating about.

Go ahead.

We'll wait.

Who needs liberal, elitist dictionaries and codes of law when you have Bronze Age wisdom?

I suggest the pro-life crowd go one step further and only use Bronze Age medicine.


Can I be the one who gets to drill holes in their heads to let the demons out? Please?
 
2010-01-29 01:35:50 PM  
Koalaesq: Y'know how anti-abortionists always talk about "innocent babies" being murdered? I thought Christians believe NO ONE is innocent due to original sin.

So... why bother saving the sinning babies if they'll just go to heaven anyway?


Because Christians hate babies!

If they didn't, they'd be pro-abortion... as that allows those unborn souls to remain innocent, clean and untainted; it guarantees that that shining beacon of love that is the babies soul will ascend to heaven!

But they don't. Instead... they want to force that soul to be born into the world, to face temptation and despair, to become tarnished and imperfect, and maybe, if they're lucky, fall from grace and require thier salvation!

/cause, doncha know, salvation without the intervention of man is an abomination to God!
 
2010-01-29 01:35:58 PM  
FuelCycle: give me doughnuts: FuelCycle: Ok so the mother gets to decide whether or not its murder... gotcha.

Go find a dictionary (if the fundies haven't gotten it taken out of the library for defining "oral sex"), look up the word "murder." In fact, look it up in several different dictionaries, and your state's criminal codes. Read all those definitions of "murder" and see if any of them correspond to what you are bleating about.

Go ahead.

We'll wait.

Hey moron, talk to Theaetetus, hes the one claiming that...


And you agreed. Remember?
FuelCycle: I said that I gotcha, which means understand
 
2010-01-29 01:36:16 PM  
RIP Schroeder , you won't be plunking that ole piano anymore.
 
2010-01-29 01:36:53 PM  
Heh, "Pro-Life" indeed.
 
2010-01-29 01:37:25 PM  
eggrolls: 40 minutes to decide.

I'm guessing the first 30 minutes of that was just waiting for the pizza to be delivered.


Golf clap...

/I lol'd
 
2010-01-29 01:37:41 PM  
Talon: But you're right. These were children that were desperately wanted with heart broken and devestated mothers and fathers who found out that the child had some severe disability or that the mother would likely die. These were not abortions by women who casually changed their mind, or women who made a mistake by getting pregnant... but by women who dearly wanted the child they had little choice but to abort.

Of all the types of abortion to oppose... late term abortion for serious medical complications should be the last type pro-lifers want to oppose (as opposed to their fantastical teenage slut who gets abortions because they tickle).


Exactly. And you sure don't see the anti-choice bunch lining up to take responsibility for, and adopting these severely damaged/disabled children.
 
2010-01-29 01:37:50 PM  
Kazan: but it is true the original words in Hebrew that was used implied "Thou Shalt not kill other Jews" not "Thou Shalt not Kill"

Uh, no, absolutely not.

לֹא תִרְצָח

has absolutely NO other connotations at all regarding Jews or non-Jews. The claim that Jews are really only forbidden from killing each others but can kill gentiles is a blood libel that led to the death of thousands of Jews throughout the ages, often suffering some of the worst tortures imaginable.

So, no, absolutely not.
 
2010-01-29 01:38:15 PM  
I'm pooling 5 bucks of my money to send to anyone in the Prison population that butt hurts this loon everyday for the next twenty five years.

Who's in?
 
2010-01-29 01:38:27 PM  
Karma Curmudgeon: Nick Nostril: When does fetus become babby?

When instain Mother doesn't kill it


win
 
2010-01-29 01:38:53 PM  
nekom: I don't get why so many people are saying that they're happy to see this outcome, as if it wasn't the only obvious outcome. Regardless of who he killed or why he did it, he clearly committed the legal definition of murder and openly admitted to his actions. How could this have turned out any other way?

i236.photobucket.com
 
2010-01-29 01:39:00 PM  
R.A.Danny: vernonFL: Life in prison is better than no life at all, which is what "Doctor" Tiller was giving his unborn patients.

Argue whatever you want, it is still a woman's right.


What rights?

A woman is to remain silent and obedient. They, like the unborn child in her womb, is the man's property. And any goodly Christian should be outraged that their property has an opinion about anything. Especially about more of their property. Her job is to make the man's babies. And dinner.

They are to shutteth the fark up, so sayeth the Lord. It's all right in the Bible.

/amen
 
2010-01-29 01:39:06 PM  
Tatsuma: NEDM: Oh yeah, welcome back.

Cheers, really glad to see you as well

zedster: true but most writings on the matter I have seen use the fact hashem breathed life into Adam to be a lunching off point.

True, but at this point it'd be easy to raise the objection that 'Well, Adam was the first man, he couldn't exactly be born a fetus then grow up, this is why it applies to the unborn but not him'

They also use the immaculate conception to show that life begins immediately rather than 9 months laters. After all..


Erm....what does the picture have to do with the immaculate conception?
 
2010-01-29 01:39:28 PM  
Theaetetus: FuelCycle: give me doughnuts: FuelCycle: Ok so the mother gets to decide whether or not its murder... gotcha.

Go find a dictionary (if the fundies haven't gotten it taken out of the library for defining "oral sex"), look up the word "murder." In fact, look it up in several different dictionaries, and your state's criminal codes. Read all those definitions of "murder" and see if any of them correspond to what you are bleating about.

Go ahead.

We'll wait.

Hey moron, talk to Theaetetus, hes the one claiming that...

And you agreed. Remember?
FuelCycle: I said that I gotcha, which means understand


I said that I got what you were talking about not that I ageed with you... are you daft?
 
2010-01-29 01:39:42 PM  
Kazan: BDR459: Good. They should take him directly out back and execute him.

that would be too nice.. and they'd consider him a martyr

toss him in solitary confinement for the rest of his natural life.


Nah - put him in the general population. It's more likely he won't make it out, then.
 
2010-01-29 01:39:49 PM  
Tatsuma: Kazan: but it is true the original words in Hebrew that was used implied "Thou Shalt not kill other Jews" not "Thou Shalt not Kill"

Uh, no, absolutely not.

לֹא תִרְצָח

has absolutely NO other connotations at all regarding Jews or non-Jews. The claim that Jews are really only forbidden from killing each others but can kill gentiles is a blood libel that led to the death of thousands of Jews throughout the ages, often suffering some of the worst tortures imaginable.

So, no, absolutely not.


The Canaanites would have liked to speak with you about that...
 
2010-01-29 01:39:58 PM  
FuelCycle: I said that I got what you were talking about not that I ageed with you... are you daft?

Then what do you disagree with? Reality?
 
2010-01-29 01:40:17 PM  
Tatsuma: Kazan: but it is true the original words in Hebrew that was used implied "Thou Shalt not kill other Jews" not "Thou Shalt not Kill"

Uh, no, absolutely not.

לֹא תִרְצָח

has absolutely NO other connotations at all regarding Jews or non-Jews. The claim that Jews are really only forbidden from killing each others but can kill gentiles is a blood libel that led to the death of thousands of Jews throughout the ages, often suffering some of the worst tortures imaginable.

So, no, absolutely not.


Oh yeah, Tats, if you want to lol at some anti-semite propaganda: Some of them are actually trying to claim that the OT is Jewish propaganda. Seriously.

/threadjack over
 
2010-01-29 01:40:35 PM  
more hilarity from that holy book people like to murder over...

Matthew 16:19 - "and I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven:
and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Before you go crazy -- I'm 100% Atheist, I don't believe in the sky wizard, but as anyone that values knowledge in any form, I know a little bit about the bible. (it's so fun using their own religious text to prove they are wrong)

So basically the son of god says that if you make laws down here, we will have the same laws up there in sky city. Well -- an entire country has decided that it's legal to abort babies. If we go by "the good book" all it boils down to is a religious wackjob on his own agenda who doesnt give a fark about anyone but himself.

I don't go around killing religious leaders because I seriously think they are poisoning the minds of young people today, there is a lot of crap that pisses me off, but I don't grab a gun and a bible and start shooting.

Anyone that thinks the abortion doc "god what he deserved" needs to go put a bullet in their heads now, because you are just a ticking time bomb of mental instability.
 
2010-01-29 01:40:59 PM  
I'll be damned, There is a "god".
 
2010-01-29 01:41:00 PM  
ElectricJennyland: Exactly. And you sure don't see the anti-choice bunch lining up to take responsibility for, and adopting these severely damaged/disabled children.

That's because those are soulless children. They would have been miscarried except for the intervention of our abomination called science... and everyone knows that God doesn't grant babies that will be miscarried souls.
 
2010-01-29 01:41:13 PM  
DoctorCal: Erm....what does the picture have to do with the immaculate conception?

... did you not really make the link between what I was just saying and the question written there?
 
2010-01-29 01:41:48 PM  
Death is too good for this pos. They need to let him rot in prison for the rest of his life.
 
2010-01-29 01:42:51 PM  
Theaetetus:
Why not? Our current law absolutely says you can. It further says that we cannot force someone into slavery to another person, even if that other person would die without it.


Because it's morally irresponsible.
 
2010-01-29 01:42:58 PM  
Tatsuma: DoctorCal: Erm....what does the picture have to do with the immaculate conception?

... did you not really make the link between what I was just saying and the question written there?


Do you always answer a question with a question?
 
2010-01-29 01:43:32 PM  
NEDM: Oh yeah, Tats, if you want to lol at some anti-semite propaganda: Some of them are actually trying to claim that the OT is Jewish propaganda. Seriously.

/threadjack over


Oh I know about that, I have read more than my share of anti-semitic material. I discussed that in the political tab, neo-nazi tea party thread.

And yes, that stuff is funny in a 'Wow... did they really write that? Do they really believe it?' kind of way
 
2010-01-29 01:43:50 PM  
zepplinrules: nekom: FuelCycle: Can't people be charged in the murder of a fetus if they kill a pregnant woman?

Apples and oranges. As it stands, whatever your opinion of it, abortion is legal. Murder is not.
Yeah, if by "apples and oranges" you mean "a huge double standard".

Apparently, wanting to have a child determines whether or not it's a human being yet.


It is by no means a double standard. What it is is a trojan horse.

Pro-choice groups have long advocated against counting killing a pregnant woman as a double murder precisely because it opens the door to this sort of reasoning. However, since there is no LAW that I know of that makes it a double murder it is simply a matter of what the DA wants to charge, what the judge will allow and what the jury will convict.
 
2010-01-29 01:44:19 PM  
zepplinrules: Theaetetus:
Why not? Our current law absolutely says you can. It further says that we cannot force someone into slavery to another person, even if that other person would die without it.

Because it's morally irresponsible.


Under what guidelines of morality? Not pragmatism, nor individualism, nor libertarianism. Maybe Christianity, though?
 
2010-01-29 01:44:20 PM  
A good warning to pro-lifers.
 
2010-01-29 01:44:22 PM  
Bocanegra: Theaetetus: Frankly, I don't believe saving women from death is a wrong.

I'm sure he did save women from death. But mostly, he destroyed fetuses because their mothers did not want to deal with a child.


[Citation needed]
 
2010-01-29 01:44:23 PM  
DoctorCal: Do you always answer a question with a question?

You didn't know I'm Jewish?
 
2010-01-29 01:44:57 PM  
Its just wrong on both sides. Abortions are an incredibly painful and a personal experience and should be left between the mother, the doctor and God.

When I was 17 I found out I was pregnant. It was truly terrifying, know that I would have to make a choice. I knew that I didn't want to marry the father so I drove to Oklahoma (because you couldn't get them in Texas under 18 w/o parental consent). Sitting in that office, armed guards outside, dozens of young girls like me. No food or drink were allowed and we sat for what seemed like 3 or 4 hours.

I regret that first abortion so much looking back. It haunts me to this day. While backpacking through France I was raped. When I missed my first period I knew what had to be done though. No matter the cost, I would not let the seed of pain and rage grow in my belly.

Finally, my mom realized the downward spiral i was in. A young youth wild and free, she had seen me on the news getting into a fight with a supporter as I left the clinic. I was devastated. She sent me to my upper class aunt and uncle in California to help keep me out of trouble to heal my soul. The taxi ride from the airport to their home was horrible, the driver smelled so bad. But now I call Bel Air home and I truly feel that I have freshened my soul.
 
2010-01-29 01:45:04 PM  
Freeper Time!

Link (new window)
 
2010-01-29 01:45:40 PM  
The first funeral I ever went to was that of a classmate who had been knocked up by a moron football player who didn't understand what "no" meant, and then died from complications resulting from an abortion performed by a drunk who had been a medic in WWII.
 
2010-01-29 01:45:47 PM  
XveryYpettyZ: However, since there is no LAW that I know of

Certain jurisdictions have passed laws defining murder that way. The justification is to place a higher charge than just assault on this:
www.explosm.net
 
2010-01-29 01:45:59 PM  
Theaetetus: zepplinrules: Theaetetus:
Why not? Our current law absolutely says you can. It further says that we cannot force someone into slavery to another person, even if that other person would die without it.

Because it's morally irresponsible.

Under what guidelines of morality? Not pragmatism, nor individualism, nor libertarianism. Maybe Christianity, though?


Common decency? You can't just kill someone who's relying on you just because you don't want to take care of them.
 
2010-01-29 01:46:49 PM  
Theaetetus: FuelCycle: I said that I got what you were talking about not that I ageed with you... are you daft?

Then what do you disagree with? Reality?


Well I am not sure if it is always that simple. What happens if the mother does something that causes the fetus to die or kills it in some strange manner, it was her choice to do that but can she still be charged with some crime?
 
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