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(The Straight Dope)   George W. Bush's distinguished military record   (straightdope.com) divider line 880
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133 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Apr 2003 at 9:11 AM (11 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2003-04-11 05:33:55 PM
Bobert:

i ment im not sure why i didnt know.
 
2003-04-11 05:36:20 PM
Subjectivist: "Secondly how did America thrive so fast from 1800 to 1900?"

To further CrotchRocket's points on this issue, I'd like to add that our society was mostly an industrial/agricultural one at that point. The US is a technology driven country now. Only about 2% of our current population are farmers. It's the digital age. Don't you read Newsweek?

We all benefit from an educated work force. I for one am glad that the woman who deposited my paycheck at the bank today benefited from public education enough to know how to correctly add my earnings to my savings account.
 
2003-04-11 05:36:26 PM
Just take a second and wonder what it would be like if Gore was in office right now.

I support Bush, don't ask me why, just be glad he doesn't do that Clinton thumb thing.
 
2003-04-11 05:36:49 PM
Oh, sory I thought you were retrded.
 
2003-04-11 05:37:32 PM
Bobert:

ment im not sure why i didnt know where my insurance was from. i know why im covered.im being very unclear right now, sorry.
 
2003-04-11 05:38:52 PM
Well being unclear is better than the alternative.
 
2003-04-11 05:38:55 PM
I for one am glad that the woman who deposited my paycheck at the bank today benefited from public education enough to know how to correctly add my earnings to my savings account.

i think a computer did that.
 
2003-04-11 05:39:08 PM
04-11-03 05:27:04 PM Objectivist
the depression was caused by government not Capitalism. The inequalities you speak of exist in reality. You can't get around them. All your doing is recongnizing some people are smarter than others and are more talented. Why should they be punished?


Actually, most of the economic experts I've talked to suggest that it was the severe dropoff of consumer spending following the decade long victory celebration after WWI. Companies made goods that would last a long, long time, and assumed that people would continue buying a washing machine and a new radio set every year. When people had already bought those and didn't need another one, the supply kept constant and the demand fell off... a lot of companies had no one to sell too. Also, you are discounting the famine that swept through the Midwest and put a lot of those previously mentioned, once successful farms out of operation.

It isn't fair. But you can't have a system that is fair for everyone.

At least you're honest. Isn't then better to make a situation that benefits the whole of society? Wouldn't you rather live there, given the possibility that you might end up as one of the disadvantaged?

Sure if someone has more money they can afford better thing and havea better opportunities. That's the reward of being successful.

So children born into poverty did something to fvck themselves up? Oh, they were born poor, I see.

The poor children are stuck in the crappy schools because government has a monopoly on education.

When there are private schools around the nation, the idea that the government has a monopoly on education is laughable. Also, what private institution is going to market education to those who can't afford it? Without some kind of cash influx, they'll go out of business. And as history has proven, there aren't enough people with money in the US donating to underfunded private schools to keep them open to leave this up to the few of them still around.
 
2003-04-11 05:40:46 PM
04-11-03 05:33:25 PM Objectivist
"...I think the intiation of force should be banned from all human interaction. Will clarify a little later."


How would this ban be enforced?
 
2003-04-11 05:40:49 PM
We all benefit from an educated work force

No one is arguing that. Where debating how to achieve it.
 
2003-04-11 05:42:17 PM
When there are private schools around the nation, the idea that the government has a monopoly on education is laughable.

poor people cannot afford private education beacuse they pay to much in taxes. if they did not have to pay for education thru taxes, they could afford private school. right now, poor families are stuck sending their children to public schools, hence the monopoly.
 
2003-04-11 05:43:19 PM
04-11-03 05:31:35 PM Objectivist
Crotchrocket Slim

Before you start representing Objectivism you might want to know what you are talking about. The government is responsible for the Depression not Capitalism.


I never said Capitalism caused the Depression, but bad assumptions made by capitalists. And you're right, it's the actual taxation that Objectivism cannot stand, not the spending. I still have yet to hear from you guys how else the government is supposed to support itself, especially when you yourself say that a laisse faire anarchy (that is, a state without government whatsoever) is not what you are advocating.
 
2003-04-11 05:44:47 PM
04-11-03 05:42:17 PM Vroomazoom

poor people cannot afford private education beacuse they pay to much in taxes. if they did not have to pay for education thru taxes, they could afford private school. right now, poor families are stuck sending their children to public schools, hence the monopoly.


I don't think you understand how little the extremely working poor make, and how much education costs.
 
2003-04-11 05:45:43 PM
04-11-03 09:26:46 AM Champship

I don't care if it has been mentioned b4, but Churchill did service in a couple of wars at least, (look them up, but it was probably when they used swords & close quarter combat was still fists & teeth).

He was also the first to use poison gas on the Kurds when he was the UK Secretary of War in 1919. He determined that the number of kills was not worth the cost of the fuel for the biplanes, (but I reckon they were very small & crappy bombs), so he recommended that gas no longer be used in a conflict. Cost & economic needs eh?

c&p
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=churchill+war+record

/pedant
 
2003-04-11 05:45:56 PM
I am an Army vet & Democrat and all I can say about this is SO FARKING WHAT!

For all my concern this is ancient history.
 
2003-04-11 05:48:00 PM
---poor people cannot afford private education beacuse they pay to much in taxes.---

So 10K a year admissions at a UC school is unattainable to a family earning 25k a year because of taxes?

Vroom, yer talking out yer arse here mate. :) sorry.
 
2003-04-11 05:48:49 PM
CripenTC,
you are responding to a comment made more than 6 hours ago, WTF, they aren't here anymore. what are you doing?

FYI
people that were here 6 hours ago

Vroomazoom
Bobert
Objectivist
Father Jack (kinda, been in and out)
sorry if I forgot anyone
 
2003-04-11 05:50:28 PM
Bobert: I've been bobbing in and out between my one class this morning and eating... damn this convo is good (and no flames for once, yeah!), otherwise I'd be out enjoying this nice weather.
 
2003-04-11 05:50:54 PM
Crotchrocket Slim

The Depression was a result of the government taking over the money supply.

Isn't then better to make a situation that benefits the whole of society?

There is no such thing as "best for society" or the public good"

So children born into poverty did something to fvck themselves up? Oh, they were born poor, I see

I understand that people are born poor. I was born poor but that doesn't give me a claim to someone else's property.


When there are private schools around the nation, the idea that the government has a monopoly on education is laughable. Also, what private institution is going to market education to those who can't afford it? Without some kind of cash influx, they'll go out of business. And as history has proven, there aren't enough people with money in the US donating to underfunded private schools to keep them open to leave this up to the few of them still around.

The fact that a couple of private schools exist doesn't mean anything. The bottom line is government controls education. Private schools are not competing in a free market. People would have the money. I don't understand why you think no one could afford it. They would make it affordable. If people kept their money they could pay for it. Also that would be something you have to keep in mind before you have children. I already stated that and it seems like you ignored it.
 
2003-04-11 05:51:11 PM
Crotchrocket Slim:

private education costs alot right now, becuase people are using for an alternative to public education. there are not private schools that are designed to run at the operating costs of public school, because the people that go to private schools now are the children of the wealthy.
 
2003-04-11 05:53:39 PM
Father_Jack:

padre, refering to poor people and, grades 1-12, I was stating that public education sucks because it has a virtual monopoly, due to the fact that you are required to pay for it. not talking about college.
 
2003-04-11 05:56:38 PM
Been reading posts. . .

God damn! There are some farking idiots on here!

That's all.
 
2003-04-11 05:57:26 PM
Crotchrocket Slim

There are different ways to pay for a government. A proper government is not that expensive. Alan Keyes had a decent idea which was a national sales tax. the priciple being that you control your money not government. With the income tax the government controls 100 percent of your money because they set the rate at which your taxed.
 
2003-04-11 06:00:14 PM
VROOM

oh.

uhh.

erm....

LOOK! AN ECLIPSE!

*runs out of the room*
 
2003-04-11 06:00:55 PM
04-11-03 05:57:26 PM Objectivist
There are different ways to pay for a government.


Here is a radical idea that occured to be.
No income tax. No sales tax. you are free to do financially as you please while you are alive.

But when you die, all is returned to the public.
 
2003-04-11 06:01:46 PM
err... occured TO ME.


Sorry.
 
2003-04-11 06:04:14 PM
Objectivist:

The Depression was a result of the government taking over the money supply.

Elaborate (historical timeline would be nice, and further explanation of this point and how it caused the Depression). Also, why discount the points I raised?

There is no such thing as "best for society" or the public good"

Then why bother with government? Oh yeah, it provides for a stable society free of AK wielding mullahs and the like... this society is the public good. And as someone benefitting from this society, you too are part of it.

But you are pretty much right, someone is most likely getting the short end of the stick. I guess a better way of positing my question would be to ask why wouldn't we want to create a society that benefitted the many, while asking for a minimum of *whatever* from its occupants? Think of it as a sort of Social Contract, where you pay your taxes, and reap the rewards of a Capitalistic nation which rewards hard work. Taxes aren't punishment, but dues for being allowed into society.

Objectivist and Vroomazoom, in regards to "government monopoly on education" and the like:

There just isn't any money to be made using the public education system model, otherwise private schools would have been doing so all along, and no one would have demanded a public education system be created. I like the idea of minimum government control and influence in everyday life, but also realize its necessity. People aren't going to do "the right thing" by themselves all the time... sometimes they need to be compelled.

And also, power and influence =! force. Otherwise, the affluent would simply replace the government in wielding power over us all. Frankly, I'd rather have an institution I have influence over (through elections and such) than a bunch of greedy rich guys who don't answer to me in the slightest running things.
 
2003-04-11 06:04:18 PM
I have enjoyed the conversation fellas,
I have to go now. And I dont think I will be on later tonight. But I will see how this turned out tomarrow morning.
 
2003-04-11 06:04:49 PM
"so, later, when im at the pool halland this girl comes up, and she's all like 'uhh' and im like, yeah, whatever."

i really dont know what to say about this idiot anymore. especially when he's commander in cheif for a huge military he was too chickenshiat to even back up as a national guard rent-a-grunt. i farking hate ceo douchebags.
 
2003-04-11 06:06:31 PM
Bukharin :

adios.

DONKEY!!
 
2003-04-11 06:07:11 PM
Objectivist: well, I could find a sales tax more palatable than an income tax if you do. However, isn't this more or less hurting the Captains of Industry who Objectivism wants to create a friendly system for?
 
2003-04-11 06:08:03 PM
Thereisnospoon :

what? i didnt follow any of that

/assuming i wasnt supposed to.
 
2003-04-11 06:08:14 PM
I'm sicking of paying for the military "monopoly" too. I think we should give some privately funded militias a shot at Dubya's next war.
 
2003-04-11 06:09:21 PM
04-11-03 06:00:55 PM Bukharin
Here is a radical idea that occured to be.
No income tax. No sales tax. you are free to do financially as you please while you are alive.

But when you die, all is returned to the public.


And here I thought Collectivism was dead :)

Not sure how practical it is though...
 
2003-04-11 06:09:34 PM
on the lighter side..

http://www.beyondgrandpa.com/lounge/cartoons.b.htm

"Grandpa cookin' up the cat" and "grandpa propositioning the mailman for sex" are not at all unfunny.

/thread.jack
 
2003-04-11 06:09:35 PM
04-11-03 05:48:49 PM Bobert

Yeah, but it was really real b4 I opened the JD bottle %-}

It's also a different time zone here so I was dubya screwed, sorry. I just needed to be a pedant (I'm sure it said so).

Anyway, WC gassing the Kurds first is often pertinent in a current flame session don't you think?

& needs more marshmallows + pizza>
 
2003-04-11 06:10:36 PM
Here is a radical idea that occured to be.
No income tax. No sales tax. you are free to do financially as you please while you are alive.


stupid idea. everyone would spend all their money before they died.
 
2003-04-11 06:11:09 PM
The_temp

how very harmoniaesque™ of you
 
2003-04-11 06:13:03 PM
Father_Jack:

what are you saying that for?!! my grandfather served in world war II dammit!! your talking out your ass!

/trying to converse like padre.
 
2003-04-11 06:14:24 PM
Ah, hypocrisy. It's what Democracy is made of!
 
2003-04-11 06:14:53 PM
Father_Jack:

funny link. hahaha. i like grandpa and the cat.
 
2003-04-11 06:15:22 PM
04-11-03 06:10:36 PM Vroomazoom

I agree that's exactly what would happen... plus, it'd really screw with inheritance and such, and while I believe that as a society, it is our duty to provide minimal basic services to the less fortunate, I'd never steal a parent's legacy away from their children. GWB going to expensive private schools doesn't bother me in and of itself, just that the poor aren't given an equal chance for something... I'd be down for school vouchers though, so long as any low-income child can get them. If we paid for this with national income tax money (or maybe even just state income tax money), would that be acceptable to you Objectivist and Vroomazoom?
 
2003-04-11 06:16:58 PM
my guess is no not acceptible, just a guess

Vroom will have an answer, but not know why.
 
2003-04-11 06:17:36 PM
Crotchrocket Slim:

i would take that over the current system. wouldnt be my first pick, but WAY better than the current system.
 
2003-04-11 06:18:48 PM
Bobert:

what do you mean by your last post? I no follow.
 
2003-04-11 06:18:50 PM
VROOM
/trying to converse like padre.

*glares at vroom like the little biatch he is*
 
2003-04-11 06:20:19 PM
Father_Jack:

come on! that was funny.
 
2003-04-11 06:22:12 PM
. o O (*wonders if vroom gets the sarcasm*)
Father_Jack
 
2003-04-11 06:22:35 PM
newest fark article...clintons military record...hahaha
 
2003-04-11 06:23:10 PM
To explain bad joke

vroom earlier you said

wait! what am I saying? I am covered for a different reason. thanks for the remider Bobert. My health care is provided from my parents still, I believe through there employer. not sure why.


 
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