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(The Straight Dope)   George W. Bush's distinguished military record   (straightdope.com) divider line 880
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133 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Apr 2003 at 9:11 AM (11 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2003-04-11 12:49:02 PM
Emperor-Jay:

Well, if valuing a work ethic is unChristian, then that's what I must be.
 
2003-04-11 12:49:09 PM
NEWPORT
didn't bob dole shoot himself on accident? I'm not saying that as an attack, i remember hearing that and wondered if you knew? (seriously, not flaming here)

TADLETTE:
---Heh, with deductive and comprehension skills like yours my dear, you should think of running for president. You're qualified.---

Does anyone else find tadlette's insults more than a bit annoying?

Tadlette, quit with the insults please. We all know you think anyone who's not a leftist is retarded, please spare us the ad hominems umkay?
 
2003-04-11 12:49:34 PM
A lot of things would have to change for them to be able to do this, what exactly would they need to change?

How Patriot Act 2 Weakens Checks and BalancesÂ

The Federal Courts.  The First and Fourth Amendments place important limits on the government’s ability to conduct searches, wiretap, obtain records and spy on religious and political activity.[5]  In general, the government must first demonstrate to a court that it has probable cause to believe evidence may be found that is relevant to a crime or related to a threat from a foreign power.  Under the Constitution, the government may only detain persons under the supervision of a court. Â

In addition, an important post-Watergate era law requires the government to get court approval before conducting wiretapping, searches or surveillance for national security purposes. Before the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) of 1978 was enacted,[6]  lack of judicial oversight had lead to famous abuses of power, including the wiretapping of Martin Luther King, Jr. and the secret political surveillance conducted by the Nixon White House.Â

The Patriot Act II would make major changes in FISA:Â Â

* Standards for court approval of searches and surveillance would be lowered â€" in many cases, making such review no longer meaningful;      Â
* A new defense would be created, shielding wiretappers acting without a court order from prosecution, so long as they had authorization from senior officials (sec. 106).

U.S. Congress.  Under current law, the government may extradite an individual to face trial in foreign courts only if an extradition treaty, ratified by the Senate, allows for extradition for the particular crime.  Likewise, the government may not conduct searches and wiretaps on behalf of a foreign nation unless the Senate has approved a Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty.Â

Under the draft bill, Americans could be extradited without a treaty or in excess of limits imposed by a treaty, and could be subject to foreign-directed searches and wiretaps (secs. 321, 322).  Courts would no longer have the authority to review extradition requests to see if the foreign nation’s legal system provides basic fairness â€" even from dictatorial, brutal or corrupt regimes (sec. 322). Â

A Free Press.  In a democracy, the people rely on a free press to be able to make wise decisions. The bill would deny the press, and the public, access to the following important information: Â

* Arrests of terrorism suspects who have not been charged with a crime (sec. 201) â€" which might include material witness detainees, immigration detainees, or Americans citizens or others labeled “enemy combatants” by the President;      Â
* Grand jury proceedings in connection with terror investigation (sec. 206);Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
* Public information about health and safety hazards of chemical and other plants (sec. 202).


Can't really state that openly, better call it the "Patriot Act" so that the uninformed think that they are benefitting from it.
 
2003-04-11 12:49:59 PM
TheConvincingSavant: "I've got a chisel. Does anybody have a hammer so I can crack through this guys closed mind?" Use it on your own head. have you ever bothered to read either Patriot Act?

Millay: "Yeah, but they stole that tactic from NPR." Hmmm, I guess public support versus private corporate support really DOES distort news. Like distorting it BACK to actual reality.
 
2003-04-11 12:50:35 PM
Sid_6.7:

Your arguments fails in the fact back then, Christianity had become corrupted with greed. Priests sold pardons to people, among other corrupt deeds, and the Pope was usually just as corrupt. The Church preached salvation, but only wanted money.

So the Crusades were not brought about by holy men, but corrupt people who were calling themselves Christian yet acting decididly non-christian, much like the Conservative Christians today.
 
2003-04-11 12:51:06 PM
Not every idiot is a Republican. But every Republican is an idiot.

*plots the Venn diagram*
 
2003-04-11 12:51:21 PM
Bushleaguer
Time: 3:57
Gossard, Vedder (ie Pearl Jam)

How does he do it? How do they do it? Uncanny and immutable.
This is such a happening tailpipe of a party.
Like sugar, the guests are so refined.

A confidence man but why so beleagued?
He's not a leader he's a Texas leaguer.
Swinging for the fence. Got lucky with a strike.
Drilling for fear makes the job simple.
Born on third. Thinks he got a triple.

Blackout weaves its way through the cities.

I remember when you sang that song about today.
Now it's tomorrow and everything has changed.

A think tank of aloof multiplication.
A nicotine wish and a columbus decanter.
Retrenchment and hoggishness.
The aristocrat choir sings, "What's the ruckus?"
The haves have not a clue.
The immenseness of suffering.
And the odd negotiation. A rarity.
With onionskin plausibility of life.
And a keyboard reaffirmation.

Blackout weaves its way through the cities.

I remember when you sang that song about today.
Now it's tomorrow and everything has changed.
 
2003-04-11 12:52:07 PM
Well good, those Lefties need to be shut up, right?

III. Â Â Â Â Â Â Targeting Ordinary People, Not Terrorists

The draft bill would do more than erode certain fundamental rights of suspects and defendants. It would grant the government powers that could be directed at ordinary people.

Protestors â€" On the Right and Left.  Under the Patriot Act, any individual or group that breaks the law with the intent of influencing the government can be labeled a terrorist if their activities are “dangerous to human life.”[7]  Under that definition, diverse “direct-action” organizations, including Operation Rescue or the World Trade Organization protestors, could be labeled “terrorist organizations.”Â

The draft exacerbates the reach of the definition by using it to trigger new antiterror powers:

* Wiretapping authority (secs. 120, 121)Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
* Civil asset forfeiture powers (sec. 427, 428)Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
* New death penalties (sec. 411)Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
* Unprecedented power of the government to revoke American citizenship even of native-born Americans and detain them indefinitely (sec. 501)Â Â

Consider this: An overzealous attorney general in an administration that favored abortion rights could label a pro-life organization that engaged in “direct action” as a domestic terrorist group.  The government could then wiretap calls, seize property, and strip supporters of U.S. citizenship.[8]

Community and Environmental Groups.  Organizations rely on open records laws to protect their communities against risks to health and safety from power, chemical or other plants.  These facilities currently are required to complete a “worst case scenario” under the Clean Air Act.[9]  Patriot Act 2 would impose extraordinary restrictions on access to these scenarios (sec. 202).Â

Churches, Synagogues, Mosques and Other Religious and Community Groups.  Patriot Act 2 would terminate court-ordered limits on political spying by local and state police.  Religious and secular organizations that take controversial political positions could face infiltration and surveillance, whether or not they have any connection to terrorism or other crime (sec. 312).

Library Users.  Patriot Act 2 would give the government new powers to issue “administrative subpoenas” and to enforce what it calls “national security letters” to obtain confidential library, Internet and bookstore records â€" without going to court at all (secs. 128, 129). Â

Immigrants.  The Constitution and laws protect the rights of immigrants to due process of law, requiring the government to provide a fair hearing to anyone the government wants to deport, and giving federal courts the power to review immigration actions. The Supreme Court reaffirmed these basic principles two years ago, stating “Judicial intervention in deportation cases is unquestionably required by the Constitution.”[10]

Patriot Act 2 would provide for summary deportations without charges or evidence if the attorney general merely suspects an immigrant may be a risk to national security (sec. 503). Lawful permanent residents who happen to have committed some minor criminal offense in the distant past could be stripped of their right to an immigration hearing and court review, even by the Great Writ of habeas corpus (sec. 504).Â



Thou shalt shut all of your mouths and obey everything we say.
 
2003-04-11 12:52:27 PM
If Christ taught that I should steal from the wealthy because I'm not smart, talented, or just lucky enough to be wealthy myself, then give me atheism.
 
2003-04-11 12:53:33 PM
Sid 6.7

You are correct. Christians do not convert through force of arms. They subscribe to the "The pen is mightier than the sword" train of thought. You cannot save someone who does not wish to be saved.
 
2003-04-11 12:53:38 PM
Add "...or unwilling to work hard enough"
 
2003-04-11 12:53:40 PM
Daysleeper - Any economy can look great when you have an election won by lying about a recession that technically turned out to be false. Clinton did not create a great economy. That occurred because of the policies of Reagan and Bush Sr. When you cut defense and intelligence by 40% and shove those dollars into an economy it is going to do well. But the price you pay is WTC and the situation we are deling with now. If you are going to argue those points it will not be necessary because those are the facts.

Keycrock - Actually if the story about Bush is true I will be greatly disappointed and will not have a favorable opinion of him from that day forward. I feel that anyone who avoids their duty should not enjoy the provisions made by those who do.
 
2003-04-11 12:53:59 PM
Daybreaker, yes, that is a good refutation to my argument, with one loose thread I might be able to pick at. Do you believe that the Pope is the ultimate Christian authority on Earth and that he is directly connected to God, and if so, how could the Pope ever have become corrupt?
 
2003-04-11 12:54:01 PM
Mr Wright

I'll take your lack of response to mean that's all you got.

BTW nice HTML skills
 
2003-04-11 12:54:25 PM
nomorecrackpipes


why the hell do people post song lyrics
nobody reads them

ahem, DONKEY™!!!, That is all.
 
2003-04-11 12:54:40 PM
MrWright:

No, but Christ did teach loving everyone, and helping those less fortunate than you.

Therefore it is not stealing, because as a Christian, you should willfully want to help these people.
 
2003-04-11 12:55:44 PM
Tadlette:

i dont get it. are you flip flopping to the idea that their sales were effected negativly by there statements? that article says their sales went down, as a direct effect of their anti-war statements. I dont get why you posted it.
 
2003-04-11 12:56:24 PM
Keylock71
BTW nice HTML skills

You got me there. :)

I'll take your lack of response to mean that's all you got.

I'll take your response to mean you agree with Bush on the war, in which case, I withdraw my claim to superiority for now.
 
2003-04-11 12:56:32 PM
"Priests sold pardons to people..."

Indulgences are back (seriously!), just in time for the new millennium.

Can I get an amen and a fries?

/collapsed Catholic
 
2003-04-11 12:57:08 PM
MrWright

If Christ taught that I should steal from the wealthy because I'm not smart, talented, or just lucky enough to be wealthy myself, then give me atheism.

He didn't so much teach that you could take from them as that they must give to you. It is very clear. Christians, real ones, know this.
 
2003-04-11 12:57:14 PM
NeoCon Logic at it's finest....

IV.       ConclusionÂ

Patriot Act 2 is fundamentally flawed because it relies on a false premise â€" that America can be safer if we do away with basic checks and balances.  By undermining the role of the courts, Congress and the press in providing a real check on executive power, Patriot Act 2 directs its ire at the institutions of our democracy instead of at the terrorists that threaten it.  In so doing, it threatens to undermine the rights of ordinary people and, ironically, the war against terrorism.



Trust us. Look we carry Bibles, we support family values, we'll make you money...... in another conclusion...


The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness -- John Kenneth Galbraith

Trust US, would we lie to you!?
 
2003-04-11 12:57:23 PM
I read the song lyrics..
 
2003-04-11 12:57:41 PM
Sid_6.7

thats a good point... The Pope is supposed to be infallible and all that...

But, back then there was no mass media, so everything went on reputation, and who knows who.... So if all priests and cardinals are corrupt and making money and livingthe good life, then they will obviously want to elect a Pope who is corrupt and will allow them to remain greedy and screw over the people.

So maybe while there were corrupt Popes, they were only Pope by title, but not in spirit.
 
2003-04-11 12:58:46 PM
EVILBOBROSS
--How's this for flamebait jerkfaces?
Not every idiot is a Republican. But every Republican is an idiot.---

I heard that expressed the following way:

"Not all conservatives are stupid. But the Stupid tend to be conservatives."

Let me tell you though, there are *puh-LENTY* stupid leftists out there. All you need to do is visit berkeley to see em.

Leftist incompetence, those eejit marxists that show up at peace rallys, the whole "LEGALIZE IT!" crowd... these people delegitimize the Left wing in the eyes of the moderates the same way the religious right delegitimize the republicans in the eyes of moderates.

Which is why we need more than 2 parties, gaddamnit.

I wish we had coalitions politics like in Germany... now THERE were parties you could identify with. Right wing Nationlist? Vote Rebuplikaner (yes, the ultra right party in germany today are called republicans...irony is a harsh mistress i know). Want to vote Center Right? Vote Christian Democrat. Want to vote Center Left/Labor? Vote SPD. Want to vote FruitBat Leftist? Vote Green.

The world ain't black and white no mo', and our political system shouldnt be either.

/stump
 
2003-04-11 12:59:20 PM
Bushleaguer is a good song.
 
2003-04-11 12:59:33 PM
Mr.Wright

What it means is that those with wealth and money should at least use some of it to help the less fortunate. Hoarding wealth is a sign of greed and greed is one of the Se7en deadly sins.
 
2003-04-11 12:59:36 PM
Funny, funny, funny stuff.

Now my Dad didn't have the familial connections that GW had. He was a poor kid from a suburb of KC, and somehow he managed to volunteer for Vietnam, and managed to lie about his age to do it, and then VOLUNTEERED to do a second stint overseas. He didn't have much in the way of influence, much in the way of advantages, but somehow he managed to get where he thought he needed to be.

Over the years, his opinion on that little expedition out into the bay has turned, and while at the time he was all for the action, he has since come down to believe that the action was wrong for a few reasons. He was proud to serve, and he doesn't regret it, but it has certainly colored his thinking.

Now if a poor cracker from Missouri could get over to Vietnam, how in the hell can the Neo-Con apologists manage to argue that GW's record showed that he actually WANTED to be involved? He had the resources, he had the dap, he just didn't have the cajones to do it. End of story. He was a coward who let others do what he was afraid to do. If he'd wanted to, he could have easily pulled an Audie Murphy and gotten his ass over. But he didn't. He in fact went AWOL. He ducked, and Ministry of Informationed himself from the situation--"Lalalalalala, I can't hear you. I can't hear you. I am involved in my extra-important life, and can't possibly respond to the duties that I imposed upon myself."

Now then, with this exemplemary service record, one would think that GW would have an understanding of those who oppose THIS war. One would think. But no, his handlers have chosen to ignore that their fair haired boy folded like a cheap napkin when it was his time, but are all too willing to point fingers at others who have far more solid reasons to object to the current festivities in the Middle East.

If he'd truly wanted to serve, he would have certainly have found a way. He didn't. My own reservations about GW hinge on more than just his paltry service record--well neigh non-existant--but it does point to an early indicator of his FABU dedication for self service, and that is a poor beginning for someone who seeks to be in the highest PUBLIC SERVICE job in the nation. I give our fair haired boy poor marks, and as one of my employees, I'd like to see him turned out into the street. I don't think he has the dap to do the job, I don't think that he's doing the job that he was "elected" to do. I think, instead, he is a mouthpiece for a particular element in our nation's elite, who have found the perfect figurehead for their agenda. He's a good puppet, going through the motions, as he's spoon fed his lines, his policy, and his itineriery. In return, he's got a chance to spend more time at the ranch than any other President. Fantastic President, that one.

Going to take a bit of time to repair the damage this fella's done, and I say the sooner we get someone in to fix it, the better. Better for the nation. Better for the people. Better for the world at large. Better certainly in the long term for most Americans who are watching their buying power shrink, better for the economy, better for environment, better for just about everyone, except possibly for the folks who think that Eisner DESERVES the ridiculous millions in compensation, while his company spiraled down 18% in value. Better for just about everyone else, except those folks who think that nation should continue paying on unfilled Defence contracts, and continue making new ones while the States are reeling from unprecedented financial woes and are slashing their education budgets. Better for everyone except those who think that the environment is going to be someone else's worry, because they don't need to, as they live in gated communities far from it. Better for everyone else, except those who are investing in a growing prison industry instead of trying to head off the problems of a growing imprisoned population...

You know for "Conservatives" the folks who champion Bush as their Rah-Rah boy seem unconcerned for our future, except as a concept of our military prowness and ability to spawn Stucky's and Micky D's in far off lands. That's not Conservatism, that's just self serving aggrandizement. It's dangerous for this nation, and pointing that out is not a hatred of this nation, it's done out of love. Love for what this nation can be, what it should be. Asking folks why they can't get behind this President, you see a lot of folks who love this nation, and are worried about the effects that his policies will do.

That's called Patriotism folks. It's love of nation. It's worrying about the future of the nation, over that of any single Administration. Confusing that is just sad and pathetic. Painting folks who point fingers at an Administration as Un-Patriotic is a shallow attempt at diverting blame. If folks were truly Un-Patriotic, they wouldn't be worried about the damage that he and his cronies are doing, they'd be gone. Or they wouldn't really give much of a rat's ass. Plenty of folks out there, but not too many are on these boards. Paint your own fence with that brand of whitewash if you want, but please consider that before you plaque over the sentiments of Americans who are concerned for the future with that poorly wielded brush.
 
2003-04-11 01:00:14 PM
Daybreaker
you should willfully want to help these people

I do:

1) Permanent welfare doesn't help anyone.

2) The key word is "willing".

3) The government is far too inefficient to be in the charity business.
 
2003-04-11 01:00:21 PM
Sid_6.7, I don't want to burst your bubble, but that's called "poisening the well." Its an argumentative fallacy, you can't make statements like those because they lead nowhere.

Example: If God is allmighty then why can't He create an object even He can not move?

See either way an almighty being comes out to be not almighty. Violating the definition of almighty. This is why you can't say those nasty nasty things in argumentative reasoning.

-- Just trying to keep things fair.
 
2003-04-11 01:00:41 PM
they must give to you. It is very clear. Christians, real ones, know this.

Crap like that, folks, is a good chunk of the reasons why I'm an athiest ;-)
 
2003-04-11 01:00:58 PM
So maybe while there were corrupt Popes, they were only Pope by title, but not in spirit.

Daybreaker, if you're willing to admit to the possibility, how can you trust the church in the present times? The same state of affairs might exist, mass media or no. There was a reformation, in fact some would consider it several, but how much did the reformation affect the Catholic heirarchies?

...and if anyone cares and noticed, even though I doubt one if not both, I managed to keep posting because my class was cancelled... oh well.
 
2003-04-11 01:01:02 PM
Vroomazoom:

never mind. i read your whole post. so album sales dont matter again. gotcha.
 
2003-04-11 01:01:03 PM
"why the hell do people post song lyrics"

When I do it's because they are apropos. I try to post only the relevant verse though, not the entire song. See the above Steve Earle....
 
2003-04-11 01:01:26 PM
Curse this HTML. ;)
 
2003-04-11 01:01:59 PM
04-11-03 12:53:40 PM BenJaxBchFL

So you doubt that Bush used his daddy's influence to avoid the meat grinder of Vietnam? Not a flame, I'm genuinely curious.
 
2003-04-11 01:02:05 PM
If Christian Welfare is so successful, why is goverment welfare needed at all?
 
2003-04-11 01:02:13 PM
04-11-03 10:09:05 AM Ant
How about we revise that question to: Is there a MARRIED guy on Fark who would say no to a bj at work by someone other than their wife?


I think there would still be alot of "hell yes" nomatted how you phrase the question.
 
2003-04-11 01:02:15 PM
Sroth; yeah, Carter tried to get the hostages out; by overriding the advice of the experts and sending Delta Force in instead of the Seals, and thereby botching the entire thing and getting eight good men killed. The Seals didn't want to use those crappy helicopters.

And that is why ANY military experience is a good thing for a Commander in Chief. (Unless you're a Charlie Wrangel fan who thinks the Pres isn't the CinC.)
 
2003-04-11 01:02:23 PM
Vroomazoom

Oh jeez, prove my point for me why don't you.

Dixie Chicks dropped 52,000 that week and apparently it was all due to antiwar statements. Norah Jones dropped 67,000 in the same week. I guess that was due to her anti-war statements, too. Only it isn't.

The real reason sales are down was in the last paragraph:

"The onset of war may have kept shoppers away from record stores last week. Total sales of top 200 albums were down by more than 641,000 copies, from 4.33 million copies to 3.69 million."

Does that make enough sense for you now ?
 
2003-04-11 01:02:30 PM
Xtremehkr, those articles you posted are phunny. they made me laff.

seriously, those people deserved what they got. it's not like they got arrested and beat down or anything. their rights were not violated. they just got questioned. they didnt get wiretapped, or spied on. the authorities just acted on some tips and asked some questions.

you gotta admit those people did display some strange behavior. for instance, who da heck keeps a poster of Bush with people getting hung in their bedroom? and to go to a post office asking for shiatloads of stamps and specifically mentioning "no American flags" is kinda suspicious especially after we have had problems with anthrax being mailed around.

now dont get me wrong, I'm no republican, and no Bush lover, and I know Patriot Act I and II are some scary shiat. but I'm commenting specifically on those articles. those people were stupid and I laugh at them.
 
2003-04-11 01:03:29 PM
Xtremehkr: I agree with you on the horrible things PA2 will do to this country but not about the conservatives. Like every side, there are good people and bad people. Mostly though, it's the greedy and corrupt (both conservatives, liberals, dems, and repubs) that have all the power.
 
2003-04-11 01:03:34 PM
Bush is a scumbag.
So what.
I wouldnt want most of the world's leaders in my house breaking bread with me.
 
2003-04-11 01:04:08 PM
Xtremehkr
If Christian Welfare is so successful, why is goverment welfare needed at all?

Mostly the greed of the poor. Sorry, someone had to say it. Just about anyone (including myself, probably) will gladly take a free hand-out if it's offered to them.
 
2003-04-11 01:04:23 PM
04-11-03 01:02:13 PM Bukharin

Errr... that should be "NO MATTER"
cant type today.
 
2003-04-11 01:05:27 PM
Champship

You are awesome. That is all.
 
2003-04-11 01:05:34 PM
See either way an almighty being comes out to be not almighty. Violating the definition of almighty. This is why you can't say those nasty nasty things in argumentative reasoning.

EvilBobRoss, so let me get this straight... I've had several courses in logic, and I'm a philosophy major, so I understand the problems inherent in using absolutes in arguments... but are you saying that Christians are allowed to use God as an omnipotent concept to support their own beliefs, but then the rest of us aren't allowed to use the same concept in counter-arguments? Perhaps you simply don't like the inherent contradictions that arise whenever you consider God as existing. I believe that that will be called doublethink in the United States in a few decades. Hope I'm not being a thought criminal, or will the term we use be terrorist?
 
2003-04-11 01:05:41 PM
George W. Bush is the anti-christ.
 
2003-04-11 01:06:12 PM
MrWright (ha!)

How about offering equal opportunity to go along with equal rights.


I am sure that those living on minimum wage are just ebing greedy when offered a little extra, they must moake thousands more than they need.
 
2003-04-11 01:06:44 PM
HUBIE
---
You know for "Conservatives" the folks who champion Bush as their Rah-Rah boy seem unconcerned for our future, except as a concept of our military prowness and ability to spawn Stucky's and Micky D's in far off lands. That's not Conservatism, that's just self serving aggrandizement. It's dangerous for this nation, and pointing that out is not a hatred of this nation, it's done out of love. Love for what this nation can be, what it should be. Asking folks why they can't get behind this President, you see a lot of folks who love this nation, and are worried about the effects that his policies will do. ---

Well said as ever sir.
 
2003-04-11 01:07:52 PM
MrWright: I agree with you on those 3 points, and I wish that those who called themselves Christian actually acted Christian. We wouldnt need Welfare or any of that. Unfortunately many people are only Christian out of fear of going to hell, and think that church once a week is good enough to save them. What they dont understand is the name is not what's important. It's the actions.

Sid_6.7:

I'm a Catholic, but I do disagree with some of the things the church does... I can trust in the Pope, though, because we have reformed enough to where there are a large amount of non-corrupt clergy out there. Plus, Bibles and mass are in the vernacular, making it easier to read and think for ourselves about what God and Jesus actually wanted. Since we can form our own opinion, we can see if we agree with the Pope, or not. Unfortunately, there are many people who dont think for themselves, and dont actually "hear" the message of the bible, they just do whatever the leadership tells them.
 
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