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(The Straight Dope)   George W. Bush's distinguished military record   (straightdope.com) divider line 880
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133 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Apr 2003 at 9:11 AM (11 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2003-04-11 12:30:02 PM
Tadlette

Nice comment on the NY bestseller list. On Monday lets see you make that statement again.
 
2003-04-11 12:31:02 PM
tadlette says: there sales went up.

vroomazoom says: grammy.com says there sales went down 42%. you cant quote any proof there sales went up can you?

tadalette says: sales dont matter. sales always drop.

vroomazoom says: but you said sales went up. now your saying it doesnt matter.

tadalette says: they went from #4 to #6, the sales went up.

well tadalette, I have no idea what to attack here. I never claimed there sales didnt go up, i just knew last i read they haddnt. produce some #'s stating there sales have increased thats fine. and changing slots does not prove anything about sales. because the number of albums you sell is a concrete #, bilboard spot is a relative #. But at this point you have flip-flopped enough where you already look terribly silly.
 
2003-04-11 12:31:10 PM
PREACH ON BROTHA EVIL, PREACH ON!

I find that comment particularly hilarious... as I am a reverend.
 
2003-04-11 12:31:17 PM
Constitutional?

* Normally, the government cannot effect a search without obtaining a warrant and showing probable cause to believe that the person has committed or will commit a crime. Section 215 violates the Fourth Amendment by allowing the government to effect Fourth Amendment searches without a warrant and without showing probable cause.

* The violation of the Fourth Amendment is made more egregious by the fact that Section 215 might be used to obtain information about the exercise of First Amendment rights. For example, the FBI could invoke Section 215 to require a library to produce records showing who had borrowed a particular book or to produce records showing who had visited a particular web site.
* Section 215 might also be used to obtain material that implicates privacy interests other than those protected by the First Amendment. For example, the FBI could use Section 215 to obtain medical records.
* The provision violates the First Amendment by prohibiting those served with Section 215 orders from disclosing that fact to others, even where there is no real need for secrecy.
* The provision violates the First Amendment by effectively authorizing the FBI to investigate U.S. persons, including American citizens, based in part on their exercise of First Amendment activity, and by authorizing the FBI to investigate non-U.S. persons based solely on their exercise of First Amendment activity.
* The provision violates the Fourth and Fifth Amendments by failing to require that those who are the subject of Section 215 orders be told that their privacy has been compromised.


Not really.
 
2003-04-11 12:31:34 PM
Bush didn't do particularly well on the test--on the pilot aptitude section

Failed everything but the date of birth.

/Navin
 
2003-04-11 12:31:47 PM
Keylock71: agreed. I've had two uncles who couldn't just get daddy to set 'em up with a cushy NG gig. One of them got himself dead and the other one might as well have, while Chimpy was living it up stateside. If only they had anal cysts. Bush is a disgrace.

Is that better?


Yes, much. ;-)
 
2003-04-11 12:32:18 PM
Necessary?


* The government already has the authority to prosecute anyone whom it has probable cause to believe has committed or is planning to commit a crime. It also has the authority to engage in surveillance of anyone whom it has probable cause to believe is a foreign power or spy - whether or not the person is suspected of any crime.
* Section 215 takes away a great deal of our liberty and privacy but isn't likely to get us any security in return.

* There's a real possibility that setting the FBI loose on the American public will have a profound chilling effect on public discourse. If people think that their conversations and their e-mails are their reading habits are being monitored, people will inevitably feel less comfortable saying what they think, especially if what they think is not what the government wants them to think.


No but would be a powerful tool against Dissenters.
 
2003-04-11 12:32:23 PM
04-11-03 12:18:30 PM MrWright
Keylock71:

It's easy to be arrogant when I'm better than you. Nice HTML work, by the way


you gonna back that statement up with some proof Mr Wright? Obviously you have insight into my 32 years most people on these threads don't. Please enlighten me.
 
2003-04-11 12:33:44 PM
Abusive?


* Attorney General Ashcroft has gone to great lengths to keep secret even the most basic information about the FBI's spying. For example, in answering questions posed by the House Judiciary Committee, he classified information that should not have been classified, including information that would have shown how often the FBI is spying on people based on their exercise of First Amendment rights.
* The little information that we do have suggests that the FBI is abusing its powers.

* For example, a survey conducted by the University of Illinois suggested that, by December 2001, the FBI had already approached 85 out of some 1500 libraries.


Is John Ashcroft a bible thumping christian?
 
2003-04-11 12:34:28 PM
Father_Jack, EvilBobRoss, and Handrail (who said stuff much earlier in the thread) have all said things that I agree with very much... which is odd. It's hard to find intelligent statements in threads where some people just want to flame.

(except one thing to Father_Jack: I wouldnt mind the religious right asshats if they actually followed the religion they claimed to be a part of. Because if they followed the laws of the religion, they wouldnt actually be Republicans, or asshats)
 
2003-04-11 12:34:55 PM
KeyCrock,

You're a disgrace. Try 81% approval bud. You and all of the other do-gooders sit around and find fault only because you know that you are losers. It really is that simple. Bill Clinton was a disgrace and there is no getting around that one.
 
2003-04-11 12:35:03 PM
The WORST kind
 
2003-04-11 12:35:12 PM
Indeed, the framework of fascism (PATRIOT Act I) is being strengthened (PATRIOT Act II).

I wish I l were in Chicago so that if I were to die before the next election, I'd still be able to vote, possibly twice!
 
2003-04-11 12:35:53 PM
Ashcroft is a threat to the Republic. Like I said before; Let's take Brutus' approach! C'mon you know you want to!


Where the fark is a Casius when you need one?
 
2003-04-11 12:35:56 PM
Funny but I posted this same topic months ago and it never made it to Fark. Anyway, an even better chart of Bush's great military career is here:
http://www.motherjones.com/news/outfront/2003/02/ma_217_01.html
I love the fact that in 71 he flew an F102 to FL to get samples for an agro importer. Priceless...
 
2003-04-11 12:36:10 PM
Keylock71
you gonna back that statement up with some proof Mr Wright?

Sure: You're 32 and against the war with Iraq.
 
2003-04-11 12:36:14 PM
...But Bush's father, George H.W., was then a U.S. congressman from Houston, and strings were pulled...

There you have it, this proves that the entire article is based on sound research.
 
2003-04-11 12:36:53 PM
VROOM
i would like you to step back for a brief moment and realize you are arguing Dixie chicks album sales with an Australian.

This bit of surrealism brought to you by "Donkey"(tm).
 
2003-04-11 12:37:04 PM
Straight BS! Why would this even get posted as a legitimate news story. I didn't read the article about the Bush's being linked to Nazi's, but I'm sure that has the same credibility. None. I think they are a little parinoid from doing their straight dope.
 
2003-04-11 12:37:23 PM
Bush is not a Christian. True Christians do not force their religion on others through holy wars like Jr. is doing in the middle east. Christians do not rob Peter to pay John, they "pay unto Caesar what is Caesar's". It says on the money "property of the united states of america" not "property of only the president and the wealthy top 5%".
 
2003-04-11 12:37:46 PM
Vroomazoom

well tadalette, I have no idea what to attack here. I never claimed there sales didnt go up, i just knew last i read they haddnt. ... But at this point you have flip-flopped enough where you already look terribly silly.

Heh, with deductive and comprehension skills like yours my dear, you should think of running for president. You're qualified.

/strategery
 
2003-04-11 12:39:52 PM
MacV: Actually no. Pick up an old copy of the Boston Globe.
 
2003-04-11 12:39:58 PM
You're a disgrace. Try 81% approval bud. You and all of the other do-gooders sit around and find fault only because you know that you are losers. It really is that simple. Bill Clinton was a disgrace and there is no getting around that one.

I seem to remember Bush making the statement around the time he took office, or perhaps before, perhaps a bit after, that he didn't care about approval rating. As far as approval rating goes... Well, quite honestly, how much faith would you put in the opinions of most people in this country?! We try to tear each others' down continually, even if we've been do so to one another for quite some time on here, and despite our exposure to one another, we still and the lack of any possible trust, are we going to listen to what many millions of anonymous others are thinking?
 
2003-04-11 12:40:12 PM
Xtremehkr

I've got a chisel. Does anybody have a hammer so I can crack through this guys closed mind?
 
2003-04-11 12:40:18 PM
I guess if the source isn't the always reputable Fox News it doesn't count.


Fox News. We distort. You decide.
 
2003-04-11 12:40:19 PM
Donkey™

thats funny


Tadlette,
can you keep it down the Adults would like to have a conversation, isn't nap time?
 
2003-04-11 12:40:20 PM
Gee...good thing there are all these folks here to let christians know what their religion is all about.
 
2003-04-11 12:40:27 PM
04-11-03 12:34:55 PM BenJaxBchFL

Wow, I'm impressed Ben. Usually you'd tell me to leave your country in a righteous display of your patriotism. You going Liberal or Something? Explain to me how Bush is not a disgrace on this issue without using Clinton. I'd ask you to explain that to my Uncles, but they died in the little war Bush got out of because of his daddy.
 
2003-04-11 12:40:30 PM
Emperor-Jay
Christians do not rob Peter to pay John...

So I guess no Socialist (ie: Democrat) could ever really be a Christian.
 
2003-04-11 12:40:50 PM
BenJaxBchFL: "Bill Clinton was a disgrace and there is no getting around that one."

Let me tell you, that booming economy sure sucked.

But I'm glad that evil man couldnt get re-relected again, thanks to the laws set after FDR. FDR, now there was a great president. I'll bet he never had a mistress.

What? You say FDR did have a mistress???

So you mean other presidents have also had mistresses, and lied? Imagine that. But thank god Bush brought our economy back down. I was sure gettin miffed at all this money I had.
 
2003-04-11 12:41:26 PM
If religion is not a form of socialism I don't know what is.
 
2003-04-11 12:41:52 PM
"We distort. You decide."

Yeah, but they stole that tactic from NPR.
 
2003-04-11 12:43:19 PM
And BTW..."Caesar" does not need 45% of my income when I hit prime earning years.
 
2003-04-11 12:43:35 PM
So I guess no Socialist (ie: Democrat) could ever really be a Christian.

Shutup. Broad generalizations like that make you look like an asshat.
 
2003-04-11 12:44:02 PM
Tadlette:

damn, thats good. ignore the fact that you have flip flopped several times and simply attack me and the office of presidency at the same time. just admit you were wrong, got caught trying to backtrack, and you really should not have inclueded the dixie chicks in your original statment. If all your going to do is drop the discussion and attack me on a personal level, just dont respond.
 
2003-04-11 12:44:10 PM
Patriot Act II, this is where the republicans start to drown in their own rhetoric.

An Overview.

“An American citizen suspected of being part of a terrorist conspiracy could be held by investigators without anyone being notified. He could simply disappear.”

New York Times Magazine
February 23, 2003

* The government would no longer be required to disclose the identity of anyone, even an American citizen, detained in connection with a terror investigation â€" until criminal charges are filed, no matter how long that takes (sec 201).      Â
* Current court limits on local police spying on religious and political activity would be repealed (sec. 312).      Â
* The government would be allowed to obtain credit records and library records without a warrant (secs. 126, 128, 129).       Â
* Wiretaps without any court order for up to 15 days after terror attack would be permissible. (sec. 103).       Â
* Release of information about health/safety hazards posed by chemical and other plants would be restricted (sec. 202).      Â
* The reach of an already overbroad definition of terrorism would be expanded â€" individuals engaged in civil disobedience could risk losing their citizenship (sec. 501); their organization could be subject to wiretapping (secs. 120, 121) and asset seizure (secs. 428, 428).      Â
* Americans could be extradited, searched and wiretapped at the behest of foreign nations, whether or not treaties allow it (sec. 321, 322).      Â
* Lawful immigrants would be stripped of the right to a fair deportation hearing and federal courts would not be allowed to review immigration rulings (secs. 503, 504).


That spells free to me.
 
2003-04-11 12:44:14 PM
04-11-03 12:36:10 PM MrWright

Now your showing your ignorance, Mr Wright.

Where did I state I'm against the war? I guess you missed out on that reading comprehension class. Got anything else or is that what you're basing your superiority on?
 
2003-04-11 12:44:59 PM
Vroomazoom

Keep fighting it mate. I'm enjoying this :)

From MTV.com:

The disparaging remarks the Dixie Chicks' Natalie Maines made about President George W. Bush in London two weeks ago ("Just so you know, we're ashamed the president of the United States is from Texas ..."), has hit Home, so to speak. In response to outrage from many Bush supporters, the country trio's songs were pulled from several radio stations' playlists, despite Maines' public explanation ("My comments were made in frustration ...") issued almost immediately after the news broke. The controversy took its toll at retail, as sales of Home fell by more than 42 percent, from 123,000 copies to 71,000. The LP, which has resided near the top of the chart for 30 weeks, will slide three spots to #7."

So they fell from #4 to #7 last week and lost around 60,000 sales, and after 30 weeks in the top 3 MTV blames the war comments. However, if you read on to the bottom of the article it also says:

"Both Norah Jones and R. Kelly will remain in their respective #2 and #3 spots from the week before. Sales of Jones' Come Away With Me, a chart fixture for over a year, were upwards of 175,000 copies, a depression of more than 67,000 from the week before. Kelly's Chocolate Factory also slid in sales, from 128,000 to 104,000 copies."

But in the same week, Norah lost 67,000 in the same week, and R.Kelly lost 24,000. Why?

"The onset of war may have kept shoppers away from record stores last week. Total sales of top 200 albums were down by more than 641,000 copies, from 4.33 million copies to 3.69 million."

Biased asshattery anyone ??
 
2003-04-11 12:45:49 PM
Who would that affect?

II.        A Frighteningly Freer Hand Against … UsÂ

At the core of the American experiment is liberty, the freedom secured through Constitutional rights of individuals and limitations on government power.  So under our Constitution, government powers are subject to limits by the courts, the Congress and the people.
 
2003-04-11 12:46:04 PM
Evil Bob Ross

Um... excuse me for restating the generalizations of others.
 
U
2003-04-11 12:46:06 PM
bush is a retard. i think he argues in these flamewars.


thanks for the next 10 years of islam/christian warfare.

and it wasn;t just about oil, but money. it;s all about money.
 
2003-04-11 12:46:17 PM
True Christians do not force their religion on others through holy wars like Jr. is doing in the middle east.

I'm not sure what sect of Christianity you follow, but I'd have two responses for this, not wholly related. First, there were the Crusades back a loooong time ago, which seemed an awful lot like Christians attempting to do what you've just said they don't. Maybe those people weren't really Christian. But then again, the Pope sponsored those Crusades, but if you don't believe in his authority as a true representative of the Christian god, then my argument falls flat.

As far as I know, however, Christians often see it as their duty to try and convert others, because by converting them, they are saving the souls of those who would otherwise be damned. Keep in mind I'm not a Christian and have not extensively and exhaustively studied the religion, or any religion for that matter, but it seems that way from what I've seen. You said, however, that Christians would not use warfare, and so this side of my argument would fail if you were willing to admit that Christians wish to forcefully convert after a fashion, but not through force of arms.
 
2003-04-11 12:46:20 PM
So the Republicans who supposedly favor less government interference are pushing forward "Patriot" Acts that would basically allow Big Brother tactics? Why, that doesnt sound like something the Republicans would do, it sounds evil.
 
2003-04-11 12:46:27 PM
Mr. Wright

THe thing to remember is to "pay onto Caesar what is Caesar's". The money is suppose to go to whoever is named on the bills. It says "property of the united states of america" ergo, the money belongs to all US citizens and not just the wealthy super elite.
 
2003-04-11 12:46:58 PM
How's this for flamebait jerkfaces?

Not every idiot is a Republican. But every Republican is an idiot.
 
2003-04-11 12:47:10 PM
Only in America would the people elect somebody as stupid as 'Dubya'
 
2003-04-11 12:47:39 PM
But it's going to stop terrorism right?

Patriot Act 2 Offers A False Solution, a Less Safe Nation

Our system’s checks and balances not only ensure that the government does not violate the rights of law-abiding citizens, they also help maintain the legitimacy of law enforcement. Actions viewed as arbitrary, capricious or improper sow the seeds of mistrust among communities that might otherwise cooperate with authorities. Limits also force the government to use their limited resources more wisely â€" that is, pursuing real criminals using proven investigative techniques.  Â

The bitter irony is that the Patriot Act 2 could make our nation more vulnerable to terrorism, a view held by many experts:Â Â Â

*  As Coleen Rowley â€" the FBI special agent named by Time Magazine as a person of the year for blowing the whistle on pre 9/11 intelligence failures â€" observed in a letter to Director Robert Mueller:



The vast majority of the one thousand plus persons "detained" in the wake of 9-11 did not turn out to be terrorists. . . . [A]fter 9-11, headquarters encouraged more and more detentions for what seem to be essentially PR purposes. Field offices were required to report daily the number of detentions in order to supply grist for statements on our progress in fighting terrorism.[2]

* In late 2001 senior intelligence specialists wrote that the use of racial profiling and other investigative techniques that intrude on civil liberties could undermine security by distracting security officials from less clumsy and more reliable forms of individual suspicion.[3]Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
* At least eight former high-ranking FBI officials, many from the Reagan and Bush administrations, criticized anti-terrorism proposals that violate civil liberties, saying they were likely to be ineffective and to distract from proven investigative techniques.


No, just you from being able to speak your mind.
 
2003-04-11 12:47:39 PM
Vroomazoom

one more time with formatting:

From MTV.com:

"The disparaging remarks the Dixie Chicks' Natalie Maines made about President George W. Bush in London two weeks ago ("Just so you know, we're ashamed the president of the United States is from Texas ..."), has hit Home, so to speak. In response to outrage from many Bush supporters, the country trio's songs were pulled from several radio stations' playlists, despite Maines' public explanation ("My comments were made in frustration ...") issued almost immediately after the news broke. The controversy took its toll at retail, as sales of Home fell by more than 42 percent, from 123,000 copies to 71,000. The LP, which has resided near the top of the chart for 30 weeks, will slide three spots to #7."

So they fell from #4 to #7 last week and lost around 60,000 sales, and after 30 weeks in the top 3 MTV blames the war comments. However, if you read on to the bottom of the article it also says:

"Both Norah Jones and R. Kelly will remain in their respective #2 and #3 spots from the week before. Sales of Jones' Come Away With Me, a chart fixture for over a year, were upwards of 175,000 copies, a depression of more than 67,000 from the week before. Kelly's Chocolate Factory also slid in sales, from 128,000 to 104,000 copies."

But in the same week, Norah lost 67,000 in the same week, and R.Kelly lost 24,000. Why?

"The onset of war may have kept shoppers away from record stores last week. Total sales of top 200 albums were down by more than 641,000 copies, from 4.33 million copies to 3.69 million."

Biased asshattery anyone ??
 
2003-04-11 12:48:12 PM
Christmastime in Washington

"...The Republicans drank whiskey neat
And thanked their lucky stars
They said, 'He cannot seek another term
They'll be no more FDRs'..."

Steve Earle
 
2003-04-11 12:48:23 PM
Dear God-
Your name comes up alot during these past few weeks. Please let us know who you actually want us to bomb so we can be good Christians.
Thanks,
Mo
 
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