A lot of life's lessons need to be taught by the parents. Because if the parents aren't hammering on those lessons, the schools don't stand a chance of teaching those lessons.

In my classes, the work loses a letter grade worth of value for every class-meeting that it's late by. I cut off the point value at 50% after 5 days, but only to give kids an incentive to actualy do the work.

If my district enacted similar rules to the ones in TFA, I'd just tell the kids I don't accept late work anymore, and that they can thank the idiots that forced me into that choice.

RedLeg1525: even grave diggers have deadlines.

Well.....if they weren't dead, they wouldn't be in line.

John Dewey: If grades are (allegedly) a measure of learning, and they learn the same regardless of when they do the assignment, I don't see the problem.

Judge: Next case, People v. Smith
DA: Ready to proceed, Your Honor.
Defense attorney: Uh, I don't have anything put together Your Honor.
Judge: You didn't know you were coming to court today, counselor?
Defense: Yes, I had the date written down, but I thought, you know, it wasn't going to be that important. What did you need?
Judge: I need to know if you're ready to proceed.
Defense: You can wait a couple of days for me to turn everything in, though, right?
Judge: Wrong. [bang] I'm fining you $1000 for contempt of court. Have the record show we're continuing because the defense is not prepared to proceed on the third continuance.

So, you know, that might be another reason to get kids used to turning things in on time.

John Dewey: RedLeg1525: I don't know maybe accountability?

Then have a separate measure for accountability.

Do teens these days even understand big words like "accountability?" Six syllables! Holy crap!

RedLeg1525: John Dewey: RedLeg1525: I don't know maybe accountability?

Then have a separate measure for accountability.

So when upon graduating a student there should be a notation that while this student is technically proficient they are unreliable in a pressure filled deadline world?

I like this idea. Much more telling than a smart kid with a 2.5.

John Dewey: Minsky: You obviously don't know the same primary and secondary teachers that I do...

No, I do know them. I find the followers of the worksheet mentality rather...frustrating/demoralizing/self-defeating/other words I'm too tired to think of right now.

I also find those that just want fact regurgitation to be along the same lines, though slightly better because they generally ask from some sort of application in the form of short answer or essay every once in awhile.

Does it bother you that the grading rubrics are being mandated by the government instead of developed by educators? Do you think the government will be more likely to promote projects involving room for subjective judgment or will they tend to want standardized tests?

Everyone loves to bash No Child Left Behind and the Bush Admin's role in education. Our children's education and futures rely on their safety from external threats, though, which makes bashing the Bush Admin's role in education one of those crazy Liberal twists of logic.

Why do I have the funny feeling that these students, once they hit the real world, will be the very first to raise holy hell if their paycheques are incomplete, or not on time?

Winnipeg is actually a very interesting place to grow up if you can hack the winters. It's definitely a real diverse city and yet so far from Minneapolis, Fargo, etc.

geom_00: LibertyHiller: geom_00: LibertyHiller: Thank you for giving me another reason to pray for an early death

I'm almost afriad to ask...which part makes you want to pray? Is there a mistake in grammer, or the link?

The stat itself did the job; you were doing fine until you tried to spell "grammar." Now I have two reasons.

Forgive me...it is late.

Yes, it is, and I was jerking your chain more than anything else. But next time, may I suggest that you pay attention to the red underscores; they identify misspelled words at all hours of the night.

/and all BACs
//doesn't help with homophones, though
///if you say it "hoh-mo-fones," it sounds like an iPod accessory for gay guys.
////what? at least I didn't say "shirtlifters"
//thank you all, don't forget to server your tip

ScottHimself: Everyone loves to bash No Child Left Behind and the Bush Admin's role in education. Our children's education and futures rely on their safety from external threats, though, which makes bashing the Bush Admin's role in education one of those crazy Liberal twists of logic.

Maybe it's the late hour, or the fact that I've been taking some cold medications, but I do not understand what you are trying to say here. Is there any way you could explain it again?

geom_00: As the son of a teacher, I am slowly seeing education all over the world go downhill.

No Child Left Behind...in one word SUCKS.

In college, I have seen students get multiple deadlines because of learning disabilites and or mental health issues. Granted, I TOTALLY understand if you have a proven medical issue, or mental health issue...but even that won't get you an extension in the real world.

The education system in the US, and now Canada is doing a HUGE disservice to the future generations.

Now, let me leave you with this staggering fact. From a 2007 issue of Penn State's "The Daily Collegian" According to a recent study, 50 percent of college-aged Americans can't locate New York State on a map of the USA.

/Have a BS in geography
//That stat DISGUSTS me.
///For anyone who wants to read the article (new window)

People should be able to locate New York on a map, but how does that knowledge actually help you in real life? I can locate all the states and name all the capitals, but I've never actually been able to apply that knowledge to anything meaningful. Schools spend too much time on trivial matters. Who cares what date the Civil War began? The important part is why it happened and what effect it had on the nation.

LibertyHiller: geom_00: LibertyHiller: geom_00: LibertyHiller: Thank you for giving me another reason to pray for an early death

I'm almost afraid to ask...which part makes you want to pray? Is there a mistake in grammar, or the link?

The stat itself did the job; you were doing fine until you tried to spell "grammar." Now I have two reasons.
Forgive me...it is late.

Yes, it is, and I was jerking your chain more than anything else. But next time, may I suggest that you pay attention to the red underscores; they identify misspelled words at all hours of the night.

/and all BACs
//doesn't help with homophones, though
///if you say it "hoh-mo-fones," it sounds like an iPod accessory for gay guys.
////what? at least I didn't say "shirtlifters"
//thank you all, don't forget to server your tip

Having made horrible typos all my life, I can tell you that running Spellcheck is no guarantee of success. Worse, if you are clumsy with the corrections it can substitute different words than the one you thought you picked (and I never see that in preview when I should). It's the Internet. Deal with those of us who are medicated and/or lazy. :)

Heh. So many talking about the 'real world', as if they'd actually seen it. By the way, I didn't turn my paper in. Suck on that :)

powhound: More or less agree with the posts thus far. Being a math teacher, how they do on tests actually is more of an indicator than anything else. So tests count for a lot...and they can pass the class quite easily if they ace them and screw homework altogether.

Although the homework is done on a spot check basis. If they have it, great, they get the points. If they don't, I don't give them the points if they realize they are about to fail and want to turn it in. Sorry, it's a small part of your grade anyways. You did good on your tests, right? RIGHT?

Bing, we have a winner.

This is exactly what I did. Teachers understood that I knew the material, I got passable grades, and nobody had to mark pages upon pages of esoteric shiat on my behalf.

Tron-tonian: the teachers should just be late turning in students final marks. only by 2-3 months.

I mean, that won't affect anything will it? It's not like these kids are planning on graduating or anything, right?

If Canadian teachers put any less effort into their job than they already do, they'd be dead.

My school district works this way, and it works good. Students can't be penalized for handing in work late because a teacher assessment is a legal document describing student capabilities to achieve a standardized rubric. To dock marks for late is to say their ability is lower than it actually is. We don't assess students' ability to follow rules, we assess students' ability to meet curricular goals. Now, we do have a mechanism in place for students to spend time after school to make up the work they missed so they get the work done and we can actively assess them.

foxy_canuck: My school district works this way, and it works good.

It works "good", eh?

/Please tell me you're not a teacher

Part of learning how to do the assignments is learning the data and how to provide the necessary bits of that data / learning as quickly and accurately as possible. Like work. If I were a teacher, I would only accept late work with a Doctor's note.

RedLeg1525: If you miss the bus does it matter if it was by seconds or by a hour?

if you miss it by 59 minutes it's not so bad, just in time for the next one.

My pet peeve when it comes to deadlines for school work? Instructors who demand an assignment handed in on a certain day, but don't get around to grading and returning it for a few weeks or a few months, or even worse, never bother returning it at all. If I hold up my end of the bargain to complete an assignment promptly, they owe it to me to give me feedback in a reasonable amount of time.

accelerus: Con Fabulous: accelerus: While they are at it, lets not charge late fees for video rentals, credit card bills, or anything like that.

Yeah, because clearly a video rental company that let people keep a DVD as long as they wanted with no late fee would be a huge failure.

The object flying over your head a few minutes ago was "the point". I'm almost 30 years old, i grew up renting VHSs and if you didn't rewind or turn them in on time you paid the extra dollar. And the only person you could complain to is yourself.

Think of this in terms of a social contract - you are requires by law to go to public school... do your homework, take tests etc. If you take away all consequences this will eventually lead to MAJOR problems in any society. It may seem like little johhny not turning in his fraction report isn't a big deal.... fast forward 15 years on the job where time=money if you have a few million johnny's running around slacking off who the hell is going to want to do any sort of business in your country?


Remember what happened on the simpsons when the whole town adopted the "i don't feel like doing that" thinking? Everything feel apart.

Congrats Manitoba govt. for giving us phase 1.

No, I did see your point. I'll even admit that it's a very valid one in both the contexts you mentioned... the world of the Simpsons and your childhood of renting VHS tapes.

Seriously though, I'm having a hard time lending a serious ear to arguments that schools should be doing MORE to simulate a workplace environment. The fact of the matter is that the emphasis is on imparting on children the skills of sitting still for long periods of time, shutting up while they do so, and waking up at an early hour to begin their day of doing so. Actual learning will just have to play second fiddle, because everybody can learn to be a faceless workforce member but if you require them to be "smart" or "learned", some might get left behind. Or, as you pointed out, the country would fall into a cartoonish apocalypse.

Personally I think we have it set up to churn out way too many "graduates" with good grades and zero depth as it is.

Bear in mind that the government in power in Manitoba is the New Democratic Party - for you Americans, that is a socialist party, even though people in Canada or Manitoba will rarely admit it.

They, like left-liberal-"progressives" of most stripes, live in the world of "ought" not the world of "is." Their entire approach to matters is to imagine how things could be, never to accept how they are in reality.

They prefer fantasy to facts. They will try to fix what isn't broken; they are, as the bumper sticker slogan says, the problem to every solution.

But don't worry, the government will take care of you.

If you're late on an assignment in school and you don't get penalized, it's unfair to others who did it on time. Penalizing people for something is a reward to those who did not make that mistake.

/Grew up in Winnipeg
//Lives in Toronto
///Winnipeg > Toronto

Who can hit the lowest common denominator first?

I live in winnipeg, and am closely related to a teacher here who works at a private school.

Some years ago standards were quite high. Then they hired a ex-public school principle to be the head administrator at the school. Standards are falling, and my relative says that the principle changes marks for her students in her courses all the time.

"There are two ways to pass this course: hard work, or talk to the principle." is certain something that she has seen on a firsthand basis.

The minute these kids go into university they're going to be shocked - profs who take off a letter grade every day something is late, or who won't take in anything late at all unless you've spoken to them in advance are the norm.

This is not about forgetting to teach students about the importance of turning in assignments on time.

This is about making the failing education system look better by passing more students, no matter what they learned in class.

Everything will sort itself out. The strong will survive. If someone graduates from high school with a 50% average because No Child Left Behind gives them a pass, they'll still end up as failures in many aspects of life. Simply having a high school diploma isn't going to magically enhance their ability to do well at work. They'll be morons whether they are drop-outs or 50% forced-grads, and I'm pretty sure any reasonable employer will detect this instantly during an interview. If anything, this will help the students who actually work hard to stand out from the crowd. Someone who manages to get excellent marks in a system that passes people who do no work will stand out as obvious success-material.

Let the morons be morons. You can't force an education into their heads, so you might as well let them coast along through to graduation. Who knows, they may even absorb a few pieces of information they otherwise wouldn't, making them slightly less moronic.

Keep in mind that half of the general population has an IQ below 100. It seems clear that not every person has the same capacity for intellect. Of course, with the way capitalism and class-based existence has so thoroughly integrated itself into modern Western living, the US and Canada need their shares of morons to flip burgers and bag groceries.

Basically what I'm saying is that the morons will be obvious when they attempt to get jobs, so whether or not they have a diploma is irrelevant. You might as well let them coast through so they at least aren't stressed all the time.

John Dewey: I've known students in high school who can't hand in a damn thing on time, and hardly ever do their homework. Some of them are simply overwhelmed by getting constant assignments and don't like having to do a full day of school and then have three hours of homework to do after it. Some of them also have to work a part-time job on top of that.

Let's not forget the teachers who would assign an hour or more of homework not taking into account that their class isn't the only one a student has or the teachers who assign pointless busywork that you know is asinine even as a grade school student.

Personally I had three criteria for doing homework:

1. Is it something I'm interested in? Then I'll do it.
2. Is it something I can knock out in half an hour or less? Then I'll do it.
3. Is it something where if I don't do it I'll get more hassle than if I do it?

Not surprisingly, #3 was the most common criterion for doing homework for me.

ScottHimself: Everyone loves to bash No Child Left Behind and the Bush Admin's role in education. Our children's education and futures rely on their safety from external threats, though, which makes bashing the Bush Admin's role in education one of those crazy Liberal twists of logic.

3/10. Pretty crappy, but you did get a couple bites

John Dewey: Given that slavery lasted for about 250 years in this country, was the about 100 years before the Civil Rights Act followed not enough time, too much time, or just enough time?


This country hasn't existed even for 250 years.

But if by "this country" you are referring to North America in general before the U.S. existed, then you should be saying that slavery lasted for about 20,000 to 40,000 years before the Civil Rights Act. Because Native Americans practiced slavery.

/you're a teacher??

We had BS similar to this in Ontario, they called it "the window of opportunity" or some such crap. It was a bit of a shock for some people I knew when they hit college, and that window slammed shut.

John Dewey: RedLeg1525: So when upon graduating a student there should be a notation that while this student is technically proficient they are unreliable in a pressure filled deadline world

Why not? Perhaps they would be better suited to a profession that doesn't rely on deadlines. There are such things.

like working for a school board?

Those of you who are middle and high school teachers...Just how bad and how prevalent is student irresponsibility now compared to 20, 30, 40 years ago?

I grew up in the seventies and early eighties. There is a marked difference between then and 1996-98 when I briefly taught middle school. Yes, I was a rookie, but even the experienced teachers who I deemed to be very good at what they did said repeatedly that things had changed drastically in the span of only a decade or so. In that span a dozen years ago, if a kid didn't want to listen to a teacher or do work, they didn't - and you'd have to go to war just for basic compliance. We even made stuff fun for them (relative to the "A Nation at Risk" days when I was their age).

I tip my hat to those of you who are talented and creative enough to withstand and maybe even conquer today's tide of irresponsibility. I sure as hell couldn't do it without having to wear a straight jacket!

mrshowrules: All goes towards by theory that Canadians are assholes.

Wut?

My wife, sister and mother are all teachers in the US and they have a similar policy in their system. Grades can only be based on the actual content, not the work habits or anything else. As a result, can't count off for late work, and in some circumstances, can't even count off for work NEVER turned in since there is no way to evaluate the content. Some of the kids have already learned to work really hard on ONE assignment that they really like or are good at, get a good grade on it, and then never turn in another assignment. Their grade for the entire class is then based on the only assignment they turned in. Do a fraction of the work and end up with a better grade than those who actually did all the assignments. No wonder people just keep getting dumber and lazier.

/Did I mention to stay off my lawn?