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(AZCentral)   Remember when Mexico decriminalized small amounts of all drugs and everyone said it would be the end of civilization there as we know it? Turns out they were wrong   (azcentral.com) divider line 211
    More: Obvious, new drugs, President Felipe Calderon, Mexico, crack cocaine, drug cartels, war on drugs, drug dealers, John Walsh  
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27518 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Jan 2010 at 12:24 PM (5 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-01-10 10:56:37 AM  
I'm for decriminalization. But using Mexico as a positive example is probably not the wisest choice.
 
2010-01-10 10:57:02 AM  
Of course they were. Everyone in the "gonna scare you to death boogedy boogedy" industry always is.
 
2010-01-10 11:09:10 AM  
arkansas: I'm for decriminalization. But using Mexico as a positive example is probably not the wisest choice.

I'm for legalization. Maybe that will keep down the whole gang murders problem Mexico is experiencing.
 
2010-01-10 11:13:09 AM  
TheOther: arkansas: I'm for decriminalization. But using Mexico as a positive example is probably not the wisest choice.

I'm for legalization. Maybe that will keep down the whole gang murders problem Mexico is experiencing.


I think you are better off pointing to the Netherlands or somewhere. Using Mexico as a positive example in regard to drug issues is.....probably not effective.
 
2010-01-10 11:15:52 AM  
Man, Mexico, you're doing it wrong.
 
2010-01-10 11:22:44 AM  
arkansas: I'm for decriminalization. But using Mexico as a positive example is probably not the wisest choice.

why? i went to cabo a while back and it was delightful. i can only imagine the rest of the country is in the same shape. i don't understand why so many mexicans would be interested in sneaking into our relatively miserable country.
 
2010-01-10 11:26:00 AM  
Yes, because the cartels in Mexico don't have a clue how to commit any violent crimes in connection with anything but drugs and it will completely wipe out Mexican gangs if we legalize a few of the currently illicit drugs.
 
2010-01-10 11:28:23 AM  
TehNacho: Yes, because the cartels in Mexico don't have a clue how to commit any violent crimes in connection with anything but drugs and it will completely wipe out Mexican gangs if we legalize a few of the currently illicit drugs.

what business could they transition into that has such high demand and profit margin in the US as illegal drugs?
 
2010-01-10 11:30:50 AM  
thomps: TehNacho: Yes, because the cartels in Mexico don't have a clue how to commit any violent crimes in connection with anything but drugs and it will completely wipe out Mexican gangs if we legalize a few of the currently illicit drugs.

what business could they transition into that has such high demand and profit margin in the US as illegal drugs?


First, I'm assuming that only some drugs will be made legal or decriminalized.

Second, they could simply start killing people for revenge that someone took their gig.

Third, what if the drugs they produce undercut the government or US grown drugs, and therefore, these goons are STILL making money off the sale of drugs, only now it's not illegal. They're still not going to want competition, so they'll still probably go after each other and those caught in the way.

Fourth, there are TONS of things to smuggle. They can just smuggle something else.
 
2010-01-10 11:35:07 AM  
thomps: what business could they transition into that has such high demand and profit margin in the US as illegal drugs?

Health Insurance.
 
2010-01-10 11:38:12 AM  
Simply legalize marijuana....

Hmmm.... let us see... Huge tax base for local, state, and federal governments and substantial reduction in incarceration and prosecution costs.

Meanwhile drug cartels start to go bankrupt.

Doesn't sound like such a bad idea.

/except to the mindless minion of zombie Reagan
 
2010-01-10 11:48:54 AM  
Therion: thomps: what business could they transition into that has such high demand and profit margin in the US as illegal drugs?

Health Insurance.


Thanks. I was going to go buy a neti pot, but you cleared my sinuses.
 
2010-01-10 11:51:41 AM  
We have a lot of municipalities that rely on private prison revenues to keep their communities afloat. If we stopped locking people up for petty crimes that harm no one, these communities would suffer.
 
2010-01-10 12:10:04 PM  
TehNacho: thomps: TehNacho: Yes, because the cartels in Mexico don't have a clue how to commit any violent crimes in connection with anything but drugs and it will completely wipe out Mexican gangs if we legalize a few of the currently illicit drugs.

what business could they transition into that has such high demand and profit margin in the US as illegal drugs?

First, I'm assuming that only some drugs will be made legal or decriminalized.


No, when we finally legalize drugs again it will be all drugs. People will realize that as bad as drugs are, prohibition just makes the problem worse.

TehNacho: Second, they could simply start killing people for revenge that someone took their gig.

How is that going to make them money? Gangs typically don't kill people for the hell of it. They kill because there is a financial incentive to do so.

Your scenario didn't play out in the US when prohibition 1.0 was repealed.

TehNacho: Third, what if the drugs they produce undercut the government or US grown drugs, and therefore, these goons are STILL making money off the sale of drugs, only now it's not illegal.

That did not happen with alcohol in the US. What evidence do you have that this would be the case with drugs?

Two bit thugs would not be able to compete with huge pharmaceutical companies who can make these drugs in multi-ton batches. They will not be able to compete on purity or on price. Currently illegal drugs have a markup of several thousand percent at least. How are they going to compete with legal drugs that have a fifteen percent markup?

When Bayer Heroin was sold it cost about as much as Bayer Aspirin. That is how dirt cheap these drugs are to produce. It is only prohibition that makes them more expensive. Of course most people don't do drugs because of the expense or the legality, but because they are smart enough to realize they are a bad idea.

TehNacho: They're still not going to want competition, so they'll still probably go after each other and those caught in the way.

Again, you have NO EVIDENCE to show this. They don't want competition, but they are going to get competition in the form of legalization and that competition is going to drive them under. The gangs will fail because their revenue stream will be gone and they will be broke in a matter of months.

TehNacho: Fourth, there are TONS of things to smuggle. They can just smuggle something else.

Such as?

What else is there to smuggle that can be sold for a several thousand percent markup? What else is there to smuggle that can finance private armies? I don't think they can stay afloat smuggling incandescent light bulbs and child pornography.
 
2010-01-10 12:22:19 PM  
Crosshair: NACHO IS STOOPID

I see it as very unlikely that we will legalize black tar heroin and cocaine.

It seems like killing random ass people in the street is not making them money, but they are continuing to do it anyways.

Things like Marijuana (again, the only drug that I see them likely making legal or decriminalizing) seem to require land and labor to make. All of these things already exist, for cheap, in Mexico. I find it unlikely that even as motivated to find that next cash cow udder to suck on, companies here are going to find the land and labor here when they can just give money to the guys that have already been making it and give them a cut.

They can smuggle people still, they can smuggle just about anything that is taxed because smuggling would get them around paying taxes. Or they could continue to steal identities. Or they could traffic people. Crooks are crooks, these people will find a way to survive.
 
2010-01-10 12:28:33 PM  
As we all know, when prohibition ended in the U.S. in 1933, the Mafia disappeared, never to be heard from again.
 
2010-01-10 12:29:47 PM  
Crosshair: People will realize that as bad as drugs are, prohibition just makes the problem worse.

I think you are being overly optimistic. I agree that all drugs should be legalized, and I say this as I watch a family member destroy his life with heroin/oxycontin. I just can't see the American public condoning complete legalization. It's just too radical.
 
2010-01-10 12:30:08 PM  
TehNacho: Crosshair: NACHO IS STOOPID

I see it as very unlikely that we will legalize black tar heroin and cocaine.

It seems like killing random ass people in the street is not making them money, but they are continuing to do it anyways.

Things like Marijuana (again, the only drug that I see them likely making legal or decriminalizing) seem to require land and labor to make. All of these things already exist, for cheap, in Mexico. I find it unlikely that even as motivated to find that next cash cow udder to suck on, companies here are going to find the land and labor here when they can just give money to the guys that have already been making it and give them a cut.

They can smuggle people still, they can smuggle just about anything that is taxed because smuggling would get them around paying taxes. Or they could continue to steal identities. Or they could traffic people. Crooks are crooks, these people will find a way to survive.


Then why not legalize the drugs, let people enjoy themselves and arrest people when they commit an action worth getting arrested for? Legal drugs doesn't mean legal murder. Even if the problem didn't go away, you're looking at it wrong.

Selling/using/buying drugs!=murder.
Two very different things.
 
Ral
2010-01-10 12:30:10 PM  
"If the law allows us to have a little bit of drugs, then we as addicts will only carry a little bit and a little bit," says Juan Manuel Rodriguez Arroyo, a heroin junkie for 32 years who now serves as volunteer director of the Nogales shelter. "It's bad symbolically. It says you can use and nothing will happen."

No, it says that people are allowed to have a little bit of drugs.

Laws should not attempt to protect people from themselves. People should be allowed to harm themselves. Drugs should be legalized -- all of them, 100%. Somebody doing coke in their own home is harming only themselves and they have the right to do that.

And I don't want to hear all the "but druggies hurt people around them with stealing and wrecking families, whine whine". Stealing is illegal. Punish that. Assault is illegal. Punish that.

Wrecking your family, while sad, is not against the law. Deal with it.
 
2010-01-10 12:32:32 PM  
TehNacho: Yes, because the cartels in Mexico don't have a clue how to commit any violent crimes in connection with anything but drugs and it will completely wipe out Mexican gangs if we legalize a few of the currently illicit drugs.

The reason there is so much crime surrounding this is because there is no legitimate way for traffickers to resolve business disputes other than with violence. This is exactly what happened with alcohol, remember? Legalize it, let them sue each other, and pin tax evasion charges on every one of them that fails to comply with the law, just like they did with Al Capone.
 
2010-01-10 12:32:36 PM  
Once again: Drugs are illegal because there is too much money in having them be illegal.
 
2010-01-10 12:33:26 PM  
Antilope: As we all know, when prohibition ended in the U.S. in 1933, the Mafia disappeared, never to be heard from again.

Pretty general assessment don't you think? The racketeering involved more than booze, say gambling for one. Oh, and illegal drugs! Probably why they hung around...
 
2010-01-10 12:34:31 PM  
m2313:
Then why not legalize the drugs, let people enjoy themselves and arrest people when they commit an action worth getting arrested for? Legal drugs doesn't mean legal murder. Even if the problem didn't go away, you're looking at it wrong.

Selling/using/buying drugs!=murder.
Two very different things.


No, buying, selling, using drugs is not murder. It sure as fark supports it though. If they could be produced by someone other than criminals who murder people, then it would not be. The problem is (as I see it), the production and distribution is never gonna be out of the hands of the crooks, and if someone tried to take it out of their hands, that person is likely to end up dead. And the next person. And the next person.

The other thing is that I find it reprehensible for people to be constantly in an altered state of mind. If adults could be responsible about drug use then more power to them- it's only illegal if you get caught is kind of a way of putting it. If you did it in your basement and I never knew it wouldn't be my problem. Many people cannot keep it in their basement.
 
2010-01-10 12:39:12 PM  
We could waste our time speculating about wing implants.

It'd be equally likely to come true.
 
2010-01-10 12:44:55 PM  
FTA: "The happy cars are one more sign of Mexico's growing drug-abuse problem and serve as a backdrop to the government's decision in August to decriminalize the possession of small amounts of narcotics.

[...]

"Nothing has changed," agreed Alejandro Marin, assistant director of a drug treatment center in Nogales. "If police see somebody using drugs, smoking a joint, they pick 'em up."

So the police continue to harass, shake-down and arrest citizens for activity that is NO LONGER ILLEGAL?

Yep. Sounds like Mexico.
 
2010-01-10 12:45:31 PM  
Therion: Healt

Don't let the facts get in the way...
 
2010-01-10 12:46:02 PM  
As I read the article, the summation of what happened is: it sucked before and it continues to suck. Civilization didn't end if you consider current conditions in Mexico as "civilization." Personally, I prefer a country where I won't be dragged out of a restaurant by gunmen and executed in a ditch, like the vacationing Los Angeles school trustee recently.

I'd like to try drug legalization in the US, but I have no illusions that it will result in a sudden dawning of low crime and good fellowship. At best it would probably give the functional addicts a way to feed their habits without resorting to crime, and give the nonfunctional addicts a way to off themselves more rapidly and with less impact on society.
 
2010-01-10 12:46:38 PM  
Therion: thomps: what business could they transition into that has such high demand and profit margin in the US as illegal drugs?

Health Insurance.


1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2010-01-10 12:47:49 PM  
proteon: We could waste our time speculating about wing implants.

It'd be equally likely to come true.


You mean like people getting wings? Like angels, or chicken?
That sounds kind of cool. Are they doing it in Japan yet?
 
2010-01-10 12:50:57 PM  
TalkShowGeek: Therion: thomps: what business could they transition into that has such high demand and profit margin in the US as illegal drugs?

Health Insurance.

1.bp.blogspot.com


Source: Countrywide
 
2010-01-10 12:51:31 PM  
FTFA: Calderón also said decriminalization of personal-use quantities would thwart corrupt Mexican cops who sometimes shake down drug users for bribes.

I laughed at this. When a country knows those who are supposed to protect and serve have a high enough corruption rate that they pass a law partially based on it, the whole place needs a cleanup.

/preferably with Clorox
//in the gene pool
 
2010-01-10 12:51:47 PM  
arkansas: TheOther: arkansas: I'm for decriminalization. But using Mexico as a positive example is probably not the wisest choice.

I'm for legalization. Maybe that will keep down the whole gang murders problem Mexico is experiencing.

I think you are better off pointing to the Netherlands or somewhere. Using Mexico as a positive example in regard to drug issues is.....probably not effective.


That parts of the country are in miserable shape, and that a lot of it is due to violence centered around illegal drugs, nonetheless does not preclude one from using Mexico as an example about the positive nature of effective decriminalization (or, perhaps more appropriately, the negative effects of criminalization and ineffective decriminalization).
 
2010-01-10 12:53:27 PM  
arkansas: I'm for decriminalization. But using Mexico as a positive example is probably not the wisest choice.

Done in one.

Civilization in Mexico? It's less likely than you think.
 
2010-01-10 12:54:06 PM  
Antilope: As we all know, when prohibition ended in the U.S. in 1933, the Mafia disappeared, never to be heard from again.


If drugs were legal, manufactured by huge corporations, and sold at the corner store like alcohol, the Mafia wouldn't be able to compete
 
2010-01-10 12:56:05 PM  
TehNacho: m2313:
Then why not legalize the drugs, let people enjoy themselves and arrest people when they commit an action worth getting arrested for? Legal drugs doesn't mean legal murder. Even if the problem didn't go away, you're looking at it wrong.

Selling/using/buying drugs!=murder.
Two very different things.

No, buying, selling, using drugs is not murder. It sure as fark supports it though. If they could be produced by someone other than criminals who murder people, then it would not be. The problem is (as I see it), the production and distribution is never gonna be out of the hands of the crooks, and if someone tried to take it out of their hands, that person is likely to end up dead. And the next person. And the next person.

The other thing is that I find it reprehensible for people to be constantly in an altered state of mind. If adults could be responsible about drug use then more power to them- it's only illegal if you get caught is kind of a way of putting it. If you did it in your basement and I never knew it wouldn't be my problem. Many people cannot keep it in their basement.


There's a very V for Vendetta-ish solution to this. If the drugs and the means to make them are legal, the population gently takes all the profit out of the gangs' hands. Said gangs are left to violent crime, which ends them up in jail faster. Drug-related crime disappears after a couple generations.
 
2010-01-10 12:56:16 PM  
Chiller Theatre: arkansas: I'm for decriminalization. But using Mexico as a positive example is probably not the wisest choice.

Done in one.

Civilization in Mexico? It's less likely than you think.


Sure, if you go to Juarez, or anywhere else near the US border. I find it amusing that the further you are from the US, the safer and saner Mexico is.
 
MIU
2010-01-10 12:56:33 PM  
2wheeljunkie: I think you are being overly optimistic. I agree that all drugs should be legalized, and I say this as I watch a family member destroy his life with heroin/oxycontin. I just can't see the American public condoning complete legalization. It's just too radical.

Decriminalization would help bring it into the open, so it could be treated as a health issue rather than punishing the victims.
 
2010-01-10 12:59:20 PM  
TehNacho: No, buying, selling, using drugs is not murder. It sure as fark supports it though. If they could be produced by someone other than criminals who murder people, then it would not be. The problem is (as I see it), the production and distribution is never gonna be out of the hands of the crooks, and if someone tried to take it out of their hands, that person is likely to end up dead. And the next person. And the next person.

Some drugs, yeah. I doubt there are many people in the US that grow their own cocaine or heroin for personal use, but any fool who can grow a tomato can grow a marijuana plant. One of the main reasons that people go to dealers is because they don't want to run the risk of getting caught with a plant. The people who wouldn't grow should weed be legalized could go down to the smokeshop and buy a pack of Marlboro Greens. Simply use the power of the market to at least lessen these cartels power and influence in the US.

The other thing is that I find it reprehensible for people to be constantly in an altered state of mind. If adults could be responsible about drug use then more power to them- it's only illegal if you get caught is kind of a way of putting it. If you did it in your basement and I never knew it wouldn't be my problem. Many people cannot keep it in their basement.

That's a problem we face every day with alcohol. Legal alcohol is responsible for more deaths a year than illegal drugs, but there's no mainstream movement to ban it, thankfully. You're right though, it does boil down to people being responsible enough to know that it's not a good idea to drive when intoxicated. I don't care if someone goes through a few bottles of Jack at home over the weekend. I have a problem when they decide to drive around or be really drunk in public. Same goes with drugs.

Plus, weed is one of the largest cash crops in the country, with annual sales estmated to be nearly $40 billion. Source (new window). There's a good argument to be made that legalizing weed could go a long way to lowering taxes overall, or using a weed tax to pay down the debt/pay for healthcare, etc.
 
2010-01-10 01:00:22 PM  
It would be a good step to allow junkies to enter rehab programs without any fear of punishment instead of turning them into jailbirds and social pariahs.
 
2010-01-10 01:00:58 PM  
Crosshair: TehNacho: thomps: TehNacho:
TehNacho: Fourth, there are TONS of things to smuggle. They can just smuggle something else.

Such as?

What else is there to smuggle that can be sold for a several thousand percent markup? What else is there to smuggle that can finance private armies? I don't think they can stay afloat smuggling incandescent light bulbs and child pornography.


Such as...guns...ammo...weapons....sex slaves....cheap illegal workers...are you really as stupid as you sound???

I suppose all these stone cold killers that leave 20 headless corpses in ditches are gonna go out and find regular jobs??? You are a farking idiot.
 
2010-01-10 01:02:11 PM  
thomps: arkansas: I'm for decriminalization. But using Mexico as a positive example is probably not the wisest choice.

why? i went to cabo a while back and it was delightful. i can only imagine the rest of the country is in the same shape. i don't understand why so many mexicans would be interested in sneaking into our relatively miserable country.


You need to go spend a few days in Juarez or maybe Mexico city to see the real Mexico. Cabo is a place that has been kept clean for rich American tourists.
 
2010-01-10 01:03:14 PM  
I see that decriminalization really solved all their problems, or at least improved them in some actually measurable way.
 
2010-01-10 01:04:43 PM  
The limits include 5 grams for marijuana (about three to six joints, depending on size)

Mexican pot? I'd say "two".

(That's OK, Bob. Our judges say they roll big joints too!)
 
2010-01-10 01:05:35 PM  
TehNacho: Yes, because the cartels in Mexico don't have a clue how to commit any violent crimes in connection with anything but drugs and it will completely wipe out Mexican gangs if we legalize a few of the currently illicit drugs.

Well Trolled, sir.
 
2010-01-10 01:05:46 PM  
crispyone: Crosshair: TehNacho: thomps: TehNacho:
TehNacho: Fourth, there are TONS of things to smuggle. They can just smuggle something else.

Such as?

What else is there to smuggle that can be sold for a several thousand percent markup? What else is there to smuggle that can finance private armies? I don't think they can stay afloat smuggling incandescent light bulbs and child pornography.

Such as...guns...ammo...weapons....sex slaves....cheap illegal workers...are you really as stupid as you sound???

I suppose all these stone cold killers that leave 20 headless corpses in ditches are gonna go out and find regular jobs??? You are a farking idiot.


How many times are you going to call this person stupid? You sound like you're a total dick.
 
2010-01-10 01:07:42 PM  
TehNacho: No, buying, selling, using drugs is not murder. It sure as fark supports it though. If they could be produced by someone other than criminals who murder people, then it would not be. The problem is (as I see it), the production and distribution is never gonna be out of the hands of the crooks, and if someone tried to take it out of their hands, that person is likely to end up dead. And the next person. And the next person.

So Mexican drug gangs are going to lay siege on a pharmaceutical lab? The whole point of legalization is to let somebody besides criminals make drugs. Like someone in this thread noted, I'm sure Bayer could make heroin just as cheap as aspirin. Bayer's heroin would also be pure and come in a measured dose.

TehNacho: The other thing is that I find it reprehensible for people to be constantly in an altered state of mind. If adults could be responsible about drug use then more power to them- it's only illegal if you get caught is kind of a way of putting it. If you did it in your basement and I never knew it wouldn't be my problem. Many people cannot keep it in their basement.

Oh, so you're just a busybody farkwad. Good luck with that then.

/fark reducing violent crime associated with drugs
//fark reducing medical emergencies associated with drugs
///those people are druggies and they deserve everything they get
 
2010-01-10 01:07:50 PM  
Roger?
 
2010-01-10 01:08:14 PM  
mantrum: TehNacho: Yes, because the cartels in Mexico don't have a clue how to commit any violent crimes in connection with anything but drugs and it will completely wipe out Mexican gangs if we legalize a few of the currently illicit drugs.

Well Trolled, sir.


I was being serious. These people will find something else to do.
 
2010-01-10 01:08:24 PM  
MIU:
Decriminalization would help bring it into the open, so it could be treated as a health issue rather than punishing the victims.



Victims? Did you really key VICTIMS???

Since when has personal choice victimized anyone?

VICTIMS!?!
 
2010-01-10 01:11:14 PM  
arkansas: I'm for decriminalization. But using Mexico as a positive example is probably not the wisest choice.

What about Portugal? (new window)
 
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