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(Examiner)   Got concealed gun? Check. Got permit to carry said gun? Check. Got both taken away by cop after he saw your gun, pointed his weapon in your face, discounted your "facially valid" permit and left you alone in a high crime area? Check   (examiner.com) divider line 579
    More: Asinine, permits, concealed weapons, high crime, J.B. Stern, U.S. Supreme Court, presumption, logical conclusions, Mirandized Schubert  
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34980 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Jan 2010 at 12:08 PM (4 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-01-02 10:17:09 AM
I've said it before.. Rights are not Rights if they can be taken away from someone else on a whim.
 
2010-01-02 10:22:42 AM
Is SCOTUS getting this one, or is it at a dead-end?
 
2010-01-02 10:28:09 AM
Wow. This is rather alarming, isn't it?

Incidentally, Alacritous, the second amendment nominally confers the right to bear arms. This, however, can of course be taken away -- e.g. convicted felons, etc. It is only a right prima facie. Furthermore, concealed carry is stressed as a privilege, not a right; carrying concealed is no more a right than is driving.
 
2010-01-02 10:39:06 AM
In Iran we do not have these problems, infidels. Unlike the Great Satan, citizens of the Islamic Republic of Iran are free to choose whatever manner of oppression regulated freedom they desire. Why would you allow private citizens to have firearms? Allah wills they be defenseless in the face of paramilitary thugs. Why do you deny the will of Allah? Marg-bar Amreeka!
 
2010-01-02 10:40:52 AM
I can't take any story seriously that employs shiat like "and ordered to stand in front of the patrol car in the hot sun".
 
2010-01-02 10:40:58 AM
So without the dramatizing language we have this;

Lawyer with a concealed carry license in Georgia
Carrying with his suit jacket fluttering open, exposing his gun in Massachusetts
Walking around in a high crime area in a suit.
Stopped and stripped of his gun because a Massachusetts cop has no way to verify the validity of a Georgia CCL.

So after all this, a thought. Why not get a Massachusetts CCL if you're going to be carrying in Massachusetts?
 
2010-01-02 10:42:57 AM
Alacritous: I've said it before.. Rights are not Rights if they can be taken away from someone else on a whim.

I hope that you feel the same way when it comes to racial profiling.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2010-01-02 10:43:28 AM
The Massachusetts man was carrying a gun near a court house. The federal judges who decided his case probably approve of disarming anybody who walks near them.
 
2010-01-02 10:44:20 AM
Harvey Birdman: So without the dramatizing language we have this;

Lawyer with a concealed carry license in Georgia
Carrying with his suit jacket fluttering open, exposing his gun in Massachusetts
Walking around in a high crime area in a suit.
Stopped and stripped of his gun because a Massachusetts cop has no way to verify the validity of a Georgia CCL.

So after all this, a thought. Why not get a Massachusetts CCL if you're going to be carrying in Massachusetts?


Well, if you get gay-married in Mass, then of course the State of Georgia recognizes.... wait... what's that?

Oh. Never mind.
 
2010-01-02 10:46:13 AM
snuff3r: I can't take any story seriously that employs shiat like "and ordered to stand in front of the patrol car in the hot sun".

I agree, but for me this came much earlier, the first sentence in fact.

It's open season on gun carriers.
 
2010-01-02 10:47:11 AM
I think bronyaur1 has covered all the relevant issues here.

Oh, and this article is a shining example of what unbiased writing looks like.
 
2010-01-02 10:48:10 AM
ZAZ: The Massachusetts man was carrying a gun near a court house.

And how did you come up with that little gem? Unless court houses are now high crime areas.
 
2010-01-02 10:49:30 AM
Rev.K: I agree, but for me this came much earlier, the first sentence in fact.

I tried to give the 'reporter' a chance.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2010-01-02 10:49:54 AM
Harvey Birdman

No, that's not it. Link to case.

Schubert is a prominent criminal defense attorney who has worked in Springfield, Massachusetts for approximately thirty years. On July 21, 2006, Officer Stern, seated in his patrol car near the Springfield courthouse, observed Schubert walking toward the courthouse. The location is considered a high-crime area. Schubert was dressed in a suit with an unbuttoned jacket and was carrying a briefcase. Stern noted that Schubert was also carrying a handgun in a holster. Despite the very hot weather that day, Schubert was wearing his suit jacket, apparently in order to conceal the handgun; however, he had the jacket unbuttoned, which allowed the officer to see the weapon. According to Stern, several passers-by also noticed Schubert's gun and alerted the officer to the firearm by waving and pointing. However, a subsequent investigation of the incident by the police department produced no witnesses or other proof of Stern's allegation regarding the passers-by.

...the officer observed Schubert walking toward the Springfield courthouse carrying a gun. This simple, undisputed fact provided a sufficient basis for Stern's concern that Schubert may have been about to commit a serious criminal act, or, at the very least, was openly carrying a firearm without a license to do so.
Rather than being praised for protecting the public the officer should be in jail for civil rights violations while armed with a dangerous weapon, and all the mandatory minimum sentences that implies.
 
2010-01-02 10:54:02 AM
Harvey Birdman:
So after all this, a thought. Why not get a Massachusetts CCL if you're going to be carrying in Massachusetts?


He has a permit from Massachusetts. The state of Mass. doesn't honor any other state's permit. If he was legally carrying there he had their own permit.
 
2010-01-02 10:55:24 AM
You mean for protecting the public that was frightened and concerned by a man walking toward a court house carrying an openly visible firearm on the basis of having a license issued by a different state that has no means to verify the validity of said license?
 
2010-01-02 10:58:08 AM
this thread will not go well for anyone.
 
2010-01-02 10:59:40 AM
jbuist: He has a permit from Massachusetts. The state of Mass. doesn't honor any other state's permit. If he was legally carrying there he had their own permit.

*Reads actual case instead of going by crappy article*

I withdraw most of my arguments then. The article was tripping me up by trying to make the case somehow involve Georgia.
 
2010-01-02 11:01:39 AM
If the author would shut up about Georgia and just tell us the story it would have made a hell of a lot more sense.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2010-01-02 11:03:04 AM
I mean for picking out an opportunity to hassle a defense attorney because he doesn't like defense attorneys, for committing perjury by falsely claiming in court that the public was alarmed when in fact they didn't see the weapon, for continuing to detain the man after he demonstrated that he had a Massachusetts "class A" license, for committing armed robbery by taking the gun away by threat of force, and so forth.

It's like police breaking you into the house and throwing you on the street and telling you they might let you back in the next business day if you show up with a certified copy of your deed.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2010-01-02 11:04:28 AM
Harvey Birdman: I withdraw most of my arguments then.

Ah, well never mind 11:03:04 then.
 
2010-01-02 11:04:35 AM
Examiner links lead to bloggers bloggity blog blogging about a story, not a story. I keep expecting one of them to start out with "It was a dark and stormy night..."

All I can say is thank goodness they got their own tag so intelligent people can avoid clicking on the links.
 
2010-01-02 11:09:11 AM
Just read the article and my only thought was HolyFark.....

What is to stop the police from executing a house to house if they feel their safety in a neighborhood is compromised by the possibility of guns hidden indoors?

Or searching everyone in a night club?

Or conducting random pat downs on the street.

And what happened to the right to retain property until judged in court? Can police just seize property and documentation on a whim now?

If the people feel their safety is compromised by an errant police force and they further feel that it is a clear and present danger which is imminent, can they disarm the police force?
 
2010-01-02 11:10:42 AM
snuff3r: I can't take any story seriously that employs shiat like "and ordered to stand in front of the patrol car in the hot sun".

That is typical for Vegas cops to do... perhaps the author's home town bias leaked into his exaggerated retelling of the story.
 
2010-01-02 11:11:16 AM
ZAZ: I mean for picking out an opportunity to hassle a defense attorney because he doesn't like defense attorneys, for committing perjury by falsely claiming in court that the public was alarmed when in fact they didn't see the weapon, for continuing to detain the man after he demonstrated that he had a Massachusetts "class A" license, for committing armed robbery by taking the gun away by threat of force, and so forth.

It's like police breaking you into the house and throwing you on the street and telling you they might let you back in the next business day if you show up with a certified copy of your deed.


You're still being dramatic. If the cop could see the gun then so could anyone else. If you pulled over for speeding and the cop can't verify your license they don't just let you go on your good word, you stay put until it is verified. It really is the same situation here. The officer couldn't verify the license was real and valid so the best judgment option in that scenario would be to retain the firearm until such time as the CCL could be verified. Once it was verified to be valid the owner was contacted to come claim his weapon. He wasn't arrested, his gun didn't get tossed into evidence room hell, his civil rights were not violated.
 
2010-01-02 11:12:47 AM
That article is confusing.

Did the guy produce a Massachusetts permit or Georgia permit while in Massachusetts?

The article does a terrible (and, I'm assuming, intentional) job of confusing the reader regarding where the incident actually takes place.
 
2010-01-02 11:14:34 AM
TwoHead: Examiner links lead to bloggers bloggity blog blogging about a story, not a story. I keep expecting one of them to start out with "It was a dark and stormy night..."

All I can say is thank goodness they got their own tag so intelligent people can avoid clicking on the links.


Case (new window)

Boston Globe story (new window)
 
2010-01-02 11:18:55 AM
If it's true that the copy said that bit about no one but him carrying a firearm on his beat...that's all I really need to hear. Cop is an arrogant douchebag that believes he is "the law."

News flash: Cops are not in law-enforcement. They don't enforce the laws. The courts enforce the law. Cops notice and report violations of the law to the courts for enforcement.
 
2010-01-02 11:20:08 AM
Either the original article needs switched to the boston globe one or we're gonna have a clusterfark when the liters show up.
 
2010-01-02 11:26:05 AM
This is utter bullshiat. The Constitution specifically mentions the right to bear arms.

/RON PAUL
 
2010-01-02 11:26:08 AM
Also, if MA is going to issue CCLs, they really do need a centralized state database of who can carry. By all appearances, cop-douchebagginess aside, if he'd been able to verify the CCL in the field, the lawyer would have gotten off with a lecture about how only the cop was allowed to carry a firearm, but he probably would have gotten his piece back.
 
2010-01-02 11:27:07 AM
cmunic8r99: TwoHead: Examiner links lead to bloggers bloggity blog blogging about a story, not a story. I keep expecting one of them to start out with "It was a dark and stormy night..."

All I can say is thank goodness they got their own tag so intelligent people can avoid clicking on the links.

Case (new window)

Boston Globe story (new window)


Thank goodness they haven't killed off all of the newspapers yet. Thank you for linking to factual reporting rather than a bloggity blog blog blog.
 
2010-01-02 11:28:11 AM
Harvey Birdman: Either the original article needs switched to the boston globe one or we're gonna have a clusterfark when the liters show up.

Here, I'll share mine:

3.ly
 
2010-01-02 11:37:25 AM
cmunic8r99: Boston Globe story (new window)

From article:
Schubert had a license to carry the gun and was released without charges after about 10 minutes, but he claimed the detention violated his rights, humiliated him in public, and traumatized him.

So, the cop saw someone with a gun walking towards a courthouse. He detained the man, held the gun, and checked the permit that the person produced.

He was then released when things checked out.

Well, I must say, this is horrendous. How can we have this invasion of someone's RIGHTS?!?!??

A cop spotting a gun and checking the person to make sure everything is ok before the person entered the courthouse? Inconceivable.

He should've known that a 62-yo white guy had a permit and just allowed him to enter the courthouse even though he spotted a weapon.
 
2010-01-02 11:40:09 AM
bulldg4life: He should've known that a 62-yo white guy had a permit and just allowed him to enter the courthouse even though he spotted a weapon.

That seems to be his point of contention. The police should only be enforcing laws on the less desirable folks. Being a lawyer in a nice suit he is not to be bothered.
 
2010-01-02 11:50:50 AM
Sounds to me like Springfield should consider moving their courthouse to a better neighborhood.
 
2010-01-02 11:56:04 AM
Wait, I missed the bit about Massachusetts. MA does not recognize a Georgia CCW permit.

Still alarming (goddamit, Examiner) a little bit, but in all honesty, the lawyer was violating law if he didn't have a MA CCW permit.
 
2010-01-02 12:13:15 PM
Only cops are allowed to be the school bullies, and they get the cookie after school, I mean crumbs.
 
2010-01-02 12:13:49 PM
Alacritous 2010-01-02 10:17:09 AM I've said it before.. Rights are not Rights if they can be taken away from someone else on a whim.
=================================================

This ain't a right. This is a law.

But the same concept applies...

/This is more of douchebaggy cops which are everywhere.
 
2010-01-02 12:14:28 PM
Don't like the fact that your Georgia concealed carry permit doesn't apply in Massachusetts?

Then don't complain when a gay couple that got married in Massachusetts demands you recognize their marriage in Georgia.

Ah, suddenly you have a greater appreciation for the full faith & credit clause.
 
2010-01-02 12:16:15 PM
Wait...this guy's argument is that because he's a white guy in a nice suit, he shouldn't be hassled when people see his gun?

Even though, as far as I can tell, he does not have a Massachusetts CCW.

Note: To get one in MA, you need to either prove you are in danger, have a job that requires you to carry a lot of cash, or go into a dangerous neighborhood.
 
2010-01-02 12:17:43 PM
Sue for harassment, aka false arrest. C'mon, the guy's an attorney for Fark's sake; this should be a no-brainer.
 
2010-01-02 12:17:47 PM
You have no rights, citizen, only some words on a piece of paper. Maybe we'll apply them to you, maybe not. STFU & EABOD.
 
2010-01-02 12:18:04 PM
Got concealed gun? Check. Got permit to carry said gun? NO.

Subbs, you got something a little wrong with your headline...
 
2010-01-02 12:18:05 PM
He had a license to carry a concealed weapon in Georgia, not Massachusetts. New England is not rootin' tootin' shootin' rebel land.
 
2010-01-02 12:18:16 PM
If he cant verify the Georgia CCL then they should also start arresting all out of state drivers when they are pulled over because they cant verify that those are valid licenses either.
 
2010-01-02 12:19:42 PM
snuff3r: I can't take any story seriously that employs shiat like "and ordered to stand in front of the patrol car in the hot sun".

So much this. And how can you quantify a "high crime area?"
 
2010-01-02 12:20:06 PM
Mouser: Sue for harassment, aka false arrest. C'mon, the guy's an attorney for Fark's sake; this should be a no-brainer.

there was no arrest. He took the gun from the guy, and the judge ruled that he had the right to do so. Screwed up but accurate on that part.

However, an appeal should be able to turn up the rest and put some more scrutiny on this, but that would be something to take years to accomplish.

/good job lawyers, you've flooded the system with so much work that to expect anything to be accomplished is a 4-10 year guess, minimum. I think the congresscritters are mostly to blame, but the lawyers are the result.
 
2010-01-02 12:20:06 PM
Alacritous: I've said it before.. Rights are not Rights if they can be taken away from someone else on a whim.

every now and then, the illusion gets peeled back. One day, it'll be completely gone.

I wonder what will happen then?
 
2010-01-02 12:20:13 PM
Most cops seem to feel they are free to violate any law or any right if they want to yet amazingly, they think of themselves as somehow different than a Soviet era police thug.
 
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