"Campaigners say the figures raise the possibility that for some girls abortion is not seen as a traumatic life event, but a routine way of dispensing with an unwanted pregnancy"

Actually, studies show that the only people who are traumatized by abortion are those who have had it pounded into their head that abortion is wrong. The majority of people who have had abortions have found it helped their mental state, easing fears of having to give a life they were not ready to care for.

Opposite: Make abortions expensive, and getting your tubes tied free.

cuz personal responsibility is too hard for some ?

I call bullshiat. An abortion has to be a very unpleasant experience. I think only a select few morons would go through more than one of these before using birth control.

I dread even going in for my annual checkup, and that's gotta be much less invasive than an abortion.

LouDobbsAwaaaay: If it could be proven that fetuses were human lives

as soon as someone can prove a fetus is not a human, with anything conclusive.... things will change
the people who attach some sort of brain function as a requirement to join our species.... should have both their species and their brain function examined

hint to some: YOU were a fetus, and through no magical miracle, are STILL a human
"they are subhuman, we can kill them" is a very drole, dragged out, false assumption that is over (ab)used by several lovely people I certainly don't want to point out.

Biological Ali: a) in the majority of cases, there is no "child" to speak of

2) in the few cases where one could plausibly claim that there is a child (later-term abortions), the majority of decisions to abort take place due to medical necessity or other extenuating circumstances

iii) profit ?

sheilanagig: Loren: Actually, it need not be toxic at all. RU-486 doesn't harm the embryo at all, nor the woman. What it does is jam the signal saying "I'm pregnant". Nature takes it's course and she has a period, the embryo is flushed out.

How easily obtained is it? How much does it cost? Is obtaining it anonymous? I know there were some problems with self-righteous pharmacists refusing to dispense it or otherwise obstruct its availability as much as they could.

No idea on cost or availability.

Atlas Blogged: I have an idea. How about we let the pro-lifers fund the costs of these kids that would have otherwise been aborted, and give pro-choice people a tax break. If they want to ban abortion so badly, they should be more than happy to pay for the consequences.

Yeah. Simple procedure: Every year there is a ballot on the legality of abortion. It is *NOT* secret. The cost of any state-funded abortions is assessed only on those who vote legal if legal wins. The cost of welfare for any unwanted kids is assessed only on those who vote illegal if illegal wins.

Slartibartfaster: Opposite: Make abortions expensive, and getting your tubes tied free.

cuz personal responsibility is too hard for some ?

Shall we make drivers take responsibility for their actions by forbidding medical treatment for auto accidents? You chose to drive, your problem. No going to the doctor to fix things!

Don't like this? What's the difference??

Loren: Shall we make drivers take responsibility for their actions by forbidding medical treatment for auto accidents? You chose to drive, your problem. No going to the doctor to fix things!

if their medical treatement requires someone else to die ? probably
if not, Im all for socialized medicine

Don't like this? What's the difference??

The killing part

LouDobbsAwaaaay: I was a sperm (and an egg) once. And through no magical miracle, I am a human now.

Yet, with very few exceptions, jerking off does not constitute genocide.

you were not a sperm, that was a half cell from your father
you were not an egg, that was another half cell from your mother

YOU were created when they put those together

Being a fetus is hard enough without you parents TRYING to kill you

What's wrong with you girlies? The welfare benefits are not enough?

Biological Ali: think "viability" is a fair cut-off point between "person" and "not person"

"viability" (as in the medical definition) is arbitrary really.
Thats why it has to be put in quotes, and not used in it's literal sense.

Otherwise, could we not just fly into countries where people have a high chance of death, and kill them ? Old people have quite low viability, they fair game too ?

Biological Ali: Arbitrary in what sense?

Its based on a % chance of survivability based on statistics and experience..... which % and why ?
^^ arbitrary
if my % drops to that one, am I still human ?

God doesn't consider the killing of an unborn child murder, and that's good enough for me!

LouDobbsAwaaaay: You are the perfect example of someone who has their definition of personhood, and isn't interested in even entertaining the notion of another definition. Thank you.

I started out human
I plan to die one

irrespective of your definition
(my definition does not need quotes around it to differentiate it from literal meaning)

Mayhem_2006: God doesn't consider the killing of an unborn child murder, and that's good enough for me!

He's cool with slavery, and tells me I can swap a sandal for a woman
but he does like to burn babies, Ill give ya that

APPROVES
http://tinyurl.com/ye3bxmn
(copy and paste)

LouDobbsAwaaaay: I am the product of those two cells. If those two cells aren't considered "me", then neither are any of the cells which grew from those two cells.

You are the result (product) of the combination
that sperm could have bonded to another egg, and it would have created a DIFFERENT human
try that trick with a fetus (before you dehydrate them, it works better then)

Reverend Monkeypants: It's horrible and I hope for a world where nobody gets abortions.

/pro-choice

I hope for a world in which every child is born to parents who are completely prepared (financially, emotionally, mentally) to have and raise him/her. Such a world would be much better than the one we have now -- in fact I bet it would be unrecognizable. Crime, drug abuse, violence, depression, poverty, terrorism/gangs, etc., would be considerably less common. Until we have 100% reliable birth control that everyone can use without inconvenience (strong bio urges often trump use of barrier methods) or side effects (not everyone can take the pill you know), then abortions for all who want them.

I had an abortion at 22. I was in love with a guy who did not want me, I had an alcohol problem, was extremely immature, and had little money. Since then, I grew the fark up, earned a couple of degrees, got a great job, fell in love, got married, and at 33 had a wonderful child. I am a great (and happy) mother to my child. I am a much better mother to my child than I could have been back when I was 22. And I would never have had my current child if I had gone through with having the one earlier (and the guy I was involved in would never have had gone on to have two kids with his now wife.) For those who consider my abortion to be taking a life, I wonder why that life is more worthy than the life of my current child. Can one of you pro lifers explain that to me, without invoking "gods will?"

Yeah, and for reasons discussed earlier on this thread, no, adoption wasn't happening (and even if I had adopted, my now son would have been a different kid, made from a different egg). Before I have the kid, it's a potential viable life -- there is potential life with everyone of my husbands ejaculation and every egg I release. So yeah, do what you can to keep egg and sperm from joining until you actually want to and are prepared to have a baby, but no birth control method is error proof and when it comes to sex people are so driven that mistakes are made. Being a parent is such an awesome responsibility I would think "a mistake in birth control" would be the absolute last thing we would want to determine if and when we become parents.

Too late for me to throw in an exception ?
Whoever designed the installers for windows, I propose REALLY late term.
(bitter mac user, ... glad I dont normally have to deal with this crap)

Biological Ali: If your objection is that this would constitute an attempt to put in numerical terms something that might be harder to measure than that

its an arbitrary point
as you quite rightly pointed out, it can vary
if its based on numerical terms... WHICH, and why ?
If that number can be seen at other stages of life, why use it ?

LouDobbsAwaaaay: you have some spittle on your chin there

quit spitting
its a pain to wipe it off and kinda disgusting
(but thanks for pointing it out)

burka: For those who consider my abortion to be taking a life, I wonder why that life is more worthy than the life of my current child

Its not
Why is the first one worth less ?

Slartibartfaster: "viability" (as in the medical definition) is arbitrary really.

You can not exist as a person if you have no functioning grey matter. This is not arbitrary, this is scientific fact.

Murkanen: You can not exist as a person if you have no functioning grey matter.

Whats the minimum IQ requirement ?
"does not want to die" starts pretty early (sort of like its built into our cells ?)

Man Going His Own Way: What's wrong with you girlies? The welfare benefits are not enough?

Nope. Some of us are not going to be fobbed off with a baby and a settlement. We actually want to be defined by something besides our reproductive function. I sure hope that's okay with the menfolk, but even if it isn't, that's the way it's going to be.

Slartibartfaster: Whats the minimum IQ requirement ?

I am not talking about IQ. I am talking about a physical portion of the brain, one that is a biological requirement for us to exist in any form beyond "living vegetable".

Biological Ali: As for why it's used, that's just how myself, most of the people in this thread country and the US judiciary President choose to define the word "God". You're welcome to volunteer an alternate definition if you so please, as long as you acknowledge that it's only one of of many that could be considered have faith in.

Sorry, Id rather go with something a tad more provable and literal
- but have fun with your way too

(and no, Im not accusing you of being a christian, Id never do that, just pointing out that how you choose to define something should be based on literal provable absolutes)

Murkanen: one that is a biological requirement for us to exist in any form beyond "living vegetable".

last I checked, vegetables dont run away from needles

Slartibartfaster: last I checked, vegetables dont run away from needles

Last I checked I wasn't referring to cabbage.

So?

Slartibartfaster: last I checked, vegetables dont run away from needles

Reactions to stimuli don't make something conscious or human. Amoeba react to needles too.

Slartibartfaster: burka: For those who consider my abortion to be taking a life, I wonder why that life is more worthy than the life of my current child

Its not
Why is the first one worth less ?

Both could not have existed. Anyone who opposes my aborting my first pregnancy is implicitly choosing that potential life over the life of my current child.

Only a a very tiny fraction of potential lives actually become lives. One out of a billion, maybe, much depending on just random chance? Every month my husband and I fail to produce a pregnancy is another lost potential life. Are those worth less?

I don't know, I guess. I don't see people mourning those potential lives. I guess some people are stuck on "but but the egg was actually fertilized! and see that as critically important (I don't - why is that so much more important than the near miss my husband and I had 2 months ago, wherein had we had intercourse just 30 minutes earlier bamm I would have gotten pregnant and had another kid), then it boils down to which "child" would have a greater chance at a better, happier, life. Which would make a greater contribution to this community? I say the one with a competent, mature, married, financially and emotionally secure mother. Would anyone argue otherwise?

sheilanagig: Reactions to stimuli don't make something conscious or human. Amoeba react to needles too

Sure

but it does differentiate them from vegetables

Murkanen: Last I checked I wasn't referring to cabbage.

Someone say you did ?

sheilanagig: Loren: Actually, it need not be toxic at all. RU-486 doesn't harm the embryo at all, nor the woman. What it does is jam the signal saying "I'm pregnant". Nature takes it's course and she has a period, the embryo is flushed out.

How easily obtained is it? How much does it cost? Is obtaining it anonymous? I know there were some problems with self-righteous pharmacists refusing to dispense it or otherwise obstruct its availability as much as they could.

IIRC there is pretty rare cases of women who take that pill just dropping dead, though I may be thinking of another plan B pill.

/As Doug Stanhope said, "Doesn't that seem like killing two birds with one stone?"

burka: Both could not have existed

really ? no possible way ?
damn that must have been one evil fetus

burka: Anyone who opposes my aborting my first pregnancy is implicitly choosing that potential life over the life of my current child.

False dichotomy
YOU chose the life of the latter at the expense of the first
burka: Every month my husband and I fail to produce a pregnancy is another lost potential life. Are those worth less?

Are you expressly executing these ? and really ? you miscarry every month ?
Thats gotta suck.

burka: I say the one with a competent, mature, married, financially and emotionally secure mother. Would anyone argue otherwise?

death to the poor uneducated children of single parents !!!
(thats gonna suck for the south - lots of places have a south)

stupid whores

Slartibartfaster: Someone say you did ?

You did right here:

last I checked, vegetables dont run away from needles

Biological Ali:
What do you mean by "provable and literal"?

Cell exists, it is now definable as human.

Should we, for example, abandon the current definition of consent and replace it with something more "provable"? Like, say, limited purely to whether the person in question said "yes" or not, seeing as that would be a provable absolute, and a far easier thing to demonstrate than something like competency, which is orders of magnitude more vague?

Start with "yes" sure
... debate the ability to say so, sure
One is literal and provable
... the other, not so much