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(Reuters) NewsFlash U.S. orders 4-6 day pause in Iraq advance   (reuters.com) divider line 647
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51 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Mar 2003 at 12:09 AM (11 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»


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2003-03-29 04:08:51 PM
Without even viewing any of the evidence for a link between Saddam and Al-Queda, you can use this logic...

For Saddam, who is without a doubt, a dirty little dictator who rules by force and intimidation, to not use Al-Queda to further his own goals, he would have to possess some sort of strategic, or moral reason, not to.

Now, who out there wants to assert that Hussien, would balk at using anything, that is not to his advantage> And who would say that Al-Queda, a band of well trained asshats, albiet fundy asshats, is not a useful tool to someone whos priciple means of control is force and terror?
 
2003-03-29 04:09:34 PM
Vrax: Honestly, I believe the UN is nothing more than a debating society. Perhaps good with humanitarian aid and programs, but nothing more. This had very well been proven with recent events and the war with Iraq. They don't want to resolve issues regarding weapons violations by military force, but yet are willing to step in to provide humanitarian aid and reconstruction aid in post-war Iraq. I'm not saying the UN doesn't play a role, I'm just pointing out that conflict resolution and rules enforcement is not in the UN agenda.

Although it may have been U.S. policy this whole time for a regime change in Iraq, we are squarely dealing with cleaning up the mess from 12 years of resolutions that have not produced any results. Although noble in its cause, the liberation of the Iraqi people is and should be second to the overall mission. Honestly, a regime change would solve a great deal of the problems existing with Iraq current with disarmament violations. I just hope our administration doesn't put the life of 'innocent' Iraqi civilians above our soldiers.

I think Tony Blair said it best when meeting with Bush this past week in a news conference when he said that the goal was to disarm Iraq and that if we could liberate the Iraqi people in the same instance, then that would be an added bonus. He did stress that our coalition soldiers should come first. As I believe it should be.
 
2003-03-29 04:16:18 PM
STFU = "I can't actually argue my position, so please be quiet and let me win this one by default, ok??"
 
2003-03-29 04:27:57 PM
Karlmer, I just got here and haven't read the thread, but... isn't that the US strategy in Iraq right now?
 
2003-03-29 04:28:41 PM
Zednaught
Let's take a look at our support for this war. There's England, where Tony Blair almost had to call off any assistance just before the Bush II announced the war because he doesn't have the support of his country.

There's Spain, which has seen the biggest anti-war demonstrations I have ever seen. It's unbelievable - there must have been a million people in the streets of Barcelona. I'm assuming that the support there is weakening.

Most of the weapons the Iraqis are using are Russian, aren't they? And does the US sell weapons to whomever supports us at the time? Did we sell weapons to Iraq?

Every year Hussein kills and wounds more people than this war has, or the last one.


I'd like to see a link to that. Saddam isn't a good guy, but this kind of rhetoric sounds like propaganda.

We won't start shiat about who is responsible for the starving children of Iraq, tho hussein managed to build a formidable army as they starved and shat themselves to death, all the while saying it was the fault of the US....fiber optic anti-aircraft sites? hmmm...or anti-diarrheal medicine and rehydration salts for dying Shiite children, hmmm, which did Hussein choose to buy?

He's been at war with a Superpower. The most pressing need is weapons. And they hate the Shiites anyway. It's not right, but what would we do if we were in a desperate war?

You are protesting a war directed against a verminous regime while you should be praising it, it is After the War you need to scream against Corporate Racketeering Carpet Bagging and McDonaldisation- Not while a people are being freed and a working democracy has a chance of being planted-after all, we remodeled Germany quite nicely, with care and intellect, and plenty of watching and yelling from the 'liberal left' we may be able to do the same here....

No, we're protesting a war that didn't need to be fought.

And it's interesting that the Republicans want to spend at LEAST $75 Billion to feed the Iraqis, but they wouldn't spend $10 Billion for a Headstart program in the US.

To a lot of us, it sounds like "We like war" is the cry from the right wing. This could have been accomplished another way, a diplomatic way.
 
2003-03-29 04:31:31 PM
BenJaxBchFL:

While I understand the clear political and social leverage which 9/11 has, the emotional weight, I just reject the idea that there is reasonable justification for an invasion of Iraq to be found in the events of 9/11. If those planes had flown from Iraq and crashed into the Twin Towers, the Pentagon, and the Pennsylvania countryside then things would be clear. Our current justification is tenuous.

As for the UN getting it's act together. I think we need to play our rightful role in that process and not sidestep the organization. I know that legally it's questionable as to whether we have sidestepped the UN, but in the eyes of a large number of UN members we have done just that. This is absolutely not the way to strengthen the UN. There was no solid case made for the urgency of action against Iraq. Having patience and trying to gather the world community as opposed to divide it would have been the prudent course. We gave up because of France or so I hear. But look, just a short while later, France said that they would participate if WMD's were used. This says to me that if greater patience and dertermination were used we might have been able to sway France to, at the very least, not use their veto in the UNSC.

I'm not for war. But, there is a right and a wrong way to do things. I believe that the UN was the right way and that we've chosen the wrong way. Your mileage may vary.
 
2003-03-29 04:32:22 PM
Tor
If the U.N. wants to be signifcant to the U.S. then it needs an army to back up it's policies.


The sad thing is, you may actually see that, especially if the US pulls out of the UN, which probably will happen if Bush II has his way.

Of course, when we get a real President in 2004, we will be back in the UN quickly.
 
2003-03-29 04:33:33 PM
BenJaxBchFL
When I see Zip I dismiss all of it. Zip where are the so called destroyed WMDs? Without getting into anything else, where are they?


What's the definition of destroyed?
 
2003-03-29 04:36:49 PM
Beemer, yes that's about the size of it.
 
2003-03-29 04:36:55 PM
Yeah, we could have talked about it for another 20 years. Every scientist I have seen agrees that trying to find these type of weapons is very difficult and getting them in the hands of others while inspectors arein country would not be that difficult. Diplomacy with this regime had run out of time. At least where America's security was concerned. Again, where are the WMDs that inspectors knew where there and Iraq claims to have destroyed? Where are they?
 
2003-03-29 04:40:34 PM
ZipBeep:

I hate to break it to you, but Zednaught's right on this one:

"Most of the weapons the Iraqis are using are Russian, aren't they? And does the US sell weapons to whomever supports us at the time? Did we sell weapons to Iraq?"

Let's see, he uses Russian tanks, Russian infantry weapons, French aircraft, and NO U.S. equipment. The U.S. gave VERY limited support to Saddam during the Iraq/Iran war and it was mostly limited to satellite photos so he could see Iranian troop movements. As far as weapons and technology, I have yet to see a single American made piece of equipment being used by the Iraqi military.
 
2003-03-29 04:41:28 PM
The experts I had read say they were probably destroyed in the bombings of Iraq, either in the first war or since.

It's very difficult to prove that you destroyed something after it has been bombed.
 
2003-03-29 04:44:18 PM
Vrax, two points are coming out. It appears that the relationship of Iraq and Al-ueda may be closer than evidence had previously been able to show. Second France is so deep in illegal commerce of weaponary with Iraq they had sufficient motivation for blocking any type of military action against Iraq. But we shall see.

Zip, Iraq keeps impeccable records on almost everything. They claim that the records for the WMDs that they possessed are not to be found.
 
2003-03-29 04:47:52 PM
Bildo
ZipBeep:

I hate to break it to you, but Zednaught's right on this one:

"Most of the weapons the Iraqis are using are Russian, aren't they? And does the US sell weapons to whomever supports us at the time? Did we sell weapons to Iraq?"

Let's see, he uses Russian tanks, Russian infantry weapons, French aircraft, and NO U.S. equipment. The U.S. gave VERY limited support to Saddam during the Iraq/Iran war and it was mostly limited to satellite photos so he could see Iranian troop movements. As far as weapons and technology, I have yet to see a single American made piece of equipment being used by the Iraqi military.


Don't hate to break it to me, I don't mind. The point is that everyone who can sell weapons has sold weapons to both Iraq, Iran, and any other nations that are potentially going to war.

I was the one who said that about the Russians, BTW. I just forget to close my italics tag.
 
2003-03-29 04:56:02 PM
Now we have a president who LEADS. Fark the polls. Leaders don't follow the polls.

That's right. Representative governments are for pinko hippies!

Any who needs oil? We can duct tape a couple magnets to Thomas Payne's corpse and generate enough power to run the entire Eastern seabord.
 
2003-03-29 05:03:24 PM
What? Iraq's not laying down and showing its belly like a good little country?

They should be ashamed of themselves.

/rollingeyes
 
2003-03-29 05:05:39 PM
BenJaxBchFL:

Vrax, two points are coming out. It appears that the relationship of Iraq and Al-ueda may be closer than evidence had previously been able to show. Second France is so deep in illegal commerce of weaponary with Iraq they had sufficient motivation for blocking any type of military action against Iraq. But we shall see.

I'm sure we'll see. I hold no illusion that altruism is the driving force for any country involved.
 
2003-03-29 05:23:24 PM
tor
"Wow. I guess empty-headed drivel and pop psychobabble constitute a rational argument."

-and thanks for comin' on "the factor"!

BenJaxBchFL

"Tor, Bauer is a product of too many drugs."

i only present answers to problems that most if not all of our so called 'leaders' will not address. they know what is the right thing to do...for the people of this nation...and the world, but don't do it because they are serving their own self interests...and other agendas, hidden in big money dreams.

-i hold no contempt for either of you.

only sadness and hope.
 
2003-03-29 06:00:32 PM
Bauer, I have no sadness for you and no hope. Mainly, because your hopeless. You desire a world of pure love and understanding...maybe when it's all over...but not today...not tomorrow...probably never...so at the bare minimum let's get rid of the Saddam's of this world....they really are evil beyond just wealth.
 
2003-03-29 06:22:54 PM
Another two -

This thing, for better or worse, is happening, and while all you anti-war people may have a good point (those of you who take the time to develop points, and there are many of you), you are not likely to stop what is happening...

But I would offer this to you, why not discuss what happens next, when the regime falls, and what YOU think should happen in Iraq. It's your dime too, and this is not nearly as easy as it seems. The US is primo shiatty at occuppying (my sp. sucks) other countries (because we don't), so what should we do? Should the UN help?

A lot of you are such talented debaters...I'd think you had lots to say..
 
2003-03-29 06:44:40 PM
Diplomacy?!!!!!

Haaaaaa Haaaaaaa Haaaaaa!

Wait! Please...stop it!!! God, my stomach hurts!!!

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Haaaaaaa!!!!

I'm dyin'!!! Diplomacy?!!! Priceless!!!!!!!
 
2003-03-29 06:56:44 PM
Are you laughing at Saddam & Diplomacy, or Bush & Diplomacy? Or Both?
 
2003-03-29 07:22:08 PM
At the human ability to be diplomatic about anything...other than in theory, or for momentary/monetary PR.
 
2003-03-29 07:22:27 PM
Dumbest war in history.
 
2003-03-29 07:26:56 PM
Did you forget about the cola wars?
 
2003-03-29 07:40:39 PM
I wouldn't put too much stock in Bauer. He sounds more like a troll. Ignore him.
 
2003-03-29 08:08:07 PM
Diplomacy: The art of saying "nice doggie" while picking up a rock.
 
2003-03-29 09:16:27 PM
You can't debate this:


 
2003-03-29 09:18:07 PM
Hey kids!! I miss anything?
 
2003-03-29 09:19:29 PM
ooohhh...Tom Tomorrow. Rarely agree with him, but love that penguin...
 
2003-03-29 09:42:07 PM
Or this, the new Iraqi currency:


 
Tor
2003-03-29 10:19:10 PM
Bauer

You unnerve me.

Anyways, I think pulling out of the war would be a FAR worse mistake than entering it (assuming going to war was a mistake) . Simply put, Saddam is likely to begin slaughtering the american-sympathetic civilians much like in Gulf War 1.
Or maybe not, Saddam HAS been trying hard to seem like the good-guy(to the arab world) in this conflict, but not trying TOO hard obviously, given the actions of the Fedayeen.

So what do you guys think, assuming the U.S. pulled out today would Saddam:

A)Kill the Iraqi's who opposed him or
B)er...NOT kill them.

(Not trying to be an asshole, just haven't heard much debate over the possibilites.)
 
2003-03-29 10:43:27 PM
Tor:

I believe that Saddam would kill the opposition.

We've ourselves in an unenviable position where we are now damned if we do and damned if we don't. I know it's easy to say would've, could've, should've, but there's a lot of would've, could've, should've to be had here already and I'm sure there will be plenty, plenty more
 
2003-03-29 11:43:37 PM
SCORECARDS, GET YOUR SCORECARDS!!! CAN'T TELL HOW MANY IRAQIS HAVE DIED WITHOUT YOUR SCORECARDS!!!!

Iraq-O-meter
 
2003-03-29 11:44:18 PM
Ah poop.

www.iraqometer.com
 
2003-03-29 11:48:07 PM
Phoxxy
I wouldn't put too much stock in Bauer. He sounds more like a troll. Ignore him.


And BenJaxFl is the voice of reason, I suppose. :Þ
 
2003-03-30 01:18:39 AM
'Loaded*ahem*evolver'-

It flatters me that I'm able to strike a chord with one such as you. Might I recommend though, that you emphasise the 'loaded' a little less, and the 'evolver' bit a LOT more?

My reasons for this recommendation are as follows (though for most farkers, I'm sure it stands obviously enough):
First, 'Moronocy' is not a word according to Webster's Third New International Dictionary-Seven Language Edition, though it has doubtlessly made some sort of impression on you at some time...

Second, your autobiograghical blurb "stupid, blind, excitable, mommy's-hand-holdin'-little-biatch." was obviously misdirected towards me, when it should be in your profile.
Third, I did not 'pick you' to pick apart, but your weak and narrowminded pablum that posed as argument.
Your new assertion that I have delved no deeper than Fox news reports is soo laughable, especially considering it is delivered by one who says the war is simply for the enrichment of a few racist bible-thumping cronies of the president's dad. You obviously have never read a serious tome on politics or history, nor have you had any sort of education in this direction. The strongest evidence for this is probably your obvious lack of intellectual capacity, but this is closely followed by your incredibly simplistic world view, a mirror of that held by uneducated pathans reared in brick factories.

hee hee, I do like your "smelly twat of a mind" line, but am actually curious where this trove of evidence is that points to a 'few racist bible thumpers" being the sole beneficiaries.

Rather than make me miserable and angry as you declared your wont to be, you have provided me my first grin on an otherwise piss-poor day. Thanks for that.
Otherwise, as for your promise, you are welcome to visit me, just post again in this forum leave an email or phone number, and I would be thrilled to give you the opportunity, since I haven't had lunch yet, and need some sort of snack...
Please do assault me on every thread you see as promise, entertainment so exquisite should be missed by none, as it is not every day profligate idiocy is paraded so proudly.

Are you twelve? Is that why you are sooo upset at the way I attack "smart things that people right"?

My source for the idea of European Support comes from the European leaders outside France Germany and Belgium, and can be read nearly anywhere if you would only deign to lower yourself to becoming informed.

Might I suggest accomplishing something useful, a healthy sex-life, or being educated as better ways of feeling manly than "I like to hurt people's feelings. It makes me feel powerful and manly"?
Besides, if that is your intent and gratification, you must feel like a little girl about now...:-)

My whole tirade off a rage against the machine website? LOL, they are against the war, but you have your little script and can't vary, I understand.

I was on and off last night as I Have a Life, not because I was waiting for some mental midget/oxygen thief to be gone long enough to get a dig in. Your being gone and my posting at odd hours actually worked against my intentions-these being to always expose ignorance when it is found.

My diatribe was meant to enlighten, and now that I know the point was and will be lost on you, I also know what sort of intellect you possess and that it is even more important to let you expose it whenever possible.

You will be an undetectable enemy, especially since you are unable to affect me at all, aside from entertainment. I am glad the truth hurts you so much and am filled with pity for your parents, since they must know too that their time and money would have been better spent on raising a small horde of black widow spiders or gambling on snail races.

Keep watching me, and perhaps you will learn something...first and foremost, you should learn the world can see that 'miserable little snatch' tag applies to the 'Loadedevolver' that posted it far more than its target.

Do yourself a favour and get an education, read something besides, well besides whatever twaddle you've been reading, because it obviously hasn't been doing your mind much good.

Have a nice life, or, barring that, just fark off and die :-)
 
2003-03-30 01:33:04 AM
zipbeep:

I hate it when I sound as if I am propagandising, and will thus divulge my source for the educated guess that fewer people (not including soldiers, as those would be labeled combatants I think) killed in the Iraqi wars with the west than under Saddam. I got it from those OilHungry Bible Thumping Fellas at Amnesty international, whose records online appear to go back to only 97, and due to their near-exclusion from iraq's interior for a good while, I would suggest they are the tip, or just a goodly chunk, of the iceberg.
There is an interesting aside to this that makes me think the numbers dead are higher still, and that would be the 'secret underground prison network" that in many cases was truly underground. These were found by the shiite resistance and the Kurds as well during the brief insurrection, and the details of which are chilling. If you have read the Gulag Archipelego, you will know that these systems are not beyond belief, and that those 'missing' are often actually 'dead'

Thanks for asking though, and not just flat out saying I was full of shiat. I hate being on the same side as Bush in an Issue, not because hs's republican or 'stole' the election, but because I find him to be embarrassingly stupid, and am confused as to whether I should be happy he has surrounded himself with such brilliant people or miserable that they are by and large a group of venal and heartless politicians....
I really just hate saddam and think it is in America's best interest to bring down despotic regimes and replace them with actual Democracies that are free and equal...and I wish we would do more of that and fewer Chiles and Koreas and Chinas and Vietnams and Haitis and Panamas and....well, you get the point.

Great article in British press recently by a human shield who went home in shame after being asked by those to be shielded how much Saddam was paying, sure it must be a fantastic sum...
 
2003-03-30 03:21:47 AM
You f*cking morons that support the war because it is "removing a terrible regime" are morons. Have you ever thought about the fact that there are alternatives to removing a regime than a FULL-SCALE WAR?

It is becoming obvious to you war-lovers this is gonna be a very costly effort. More people than most of you expected are already dead, unbelieve amounts of money are being spent.

This is how I see it: Most of the members of the army are under fear of Hussein and his inner circle. If the US tactically removed Hussein and certain army spots without revealing so much shiat to the media, this would've worked out a lot better.

I KNOW they've tried this in the past, but obviously not effectively enough. Saddam wasn't a big issue with Clinton, and never put effort into it. If Bush and his administration truly believed Saddam is a terrible person and needed to go with minimal life loss, they would've put effort into more diplomacy and intelligence gathering.

It is obvious to me, as it is to most people, diplomacy was a HUGE f*cking error. Support the war or not, it was truly a failure. Even if you believe diplomacy wasn't the "answer", they didn't even try. Even when the inspectors said they were showing signs of cooperation, the US just denied them any chances. Not giving the country a f*cking chance to disarm is totally unfair.
 
2003-03-30 03:25:35 AM
I'd also like to add I don't really even blame Bush for this f*ckup of a situation. After reading that "Rumsfeld Ignored Pentagon" article, I feel totally ashamed he has any position in the government. He isn't very articulate and doesn't sound like he's had any military experience. He's like "go in and bomb 'em".


Maybe if someone better was mainly coordinating this war, I wouldn't think of it so badly.
 
2003-03-30 03:53:40 AM
Linque shat this out:
"You f*cking morons that support the war because it is "removing a terrible regime" are morons. Have you ever thought about the fact that there are alternatives to removing a regime than a FULL-SCALE WAR?"

OK then friend, name the alternatives and give examples of their application and success....Can't? Odd that.
 
2003-03-30 03:55:15 AM
Linque left this previously unnoticed dingleberry as well:
"Not giving the country a f*cking chance to disarm is totally unfair."
12 years is not a farking chance?
 
2003-03-30 05:21:21 AM
Reading a thread like this just reinforces my belief that we live in a world of morons.
 
2003-03-30 11:14:17 AM
test
 
2003-03-30 05:18:17 PM
No pause. We're still kicking ass.
 
2003-03-30 07:02:08 PM
-tor, benjaxbchfl, et al....everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

this is america.

and as long as there is a breath of air in my lungs...i shall defend her with the truth...as i see it.

-that is my right as an american.
if people agree with me...fine. that is their right.

it is your 'right' to not agree with me...and that's it.

don't like it?

-tough.
 
2003-03-30 07:29:45 PM
benjaxbchfl

03-29-03 06:00:32 PM BenJaxBchFL
"Bauer, I have no sadness for you and no hope. Mainly, because your hopeless. You desire a world of pure love and understanding...maybe when it's all over...but not today...not tomorrow...probably never...so at the bare minimum let's get rid of the Saddam's of this world....they really are evil beyond just wealth."


-'your' bio says that you're college edu ma cated...being an acountant and all. did you ever learn about compassion when you were skipping out of comp 101?

have you been using poor spelling skills all of this time as well? ....'your' whole life?


-see how easy it is to be vindictive?

i usually don't sink to this low of a level...but you bring out the flameproof in me.

-i don't go looking for flamers...but i am more than capable of putting them out.
 
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