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(Washington Post) NewsFlash Large explosion in Kuwait City   (washingtonpost.com ) divider line
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42 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Mar 2003 at 6:05 PM (13 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»


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2003-03-28 08:18:06 PM  
::::extra $$ idea::::Get a paper route going and deliver da bad news!
 
eps
2003-03-28 08:18:21 PM  
Does everyone agree with me that Lynch's Sardarkaur were much scarier than the stormtroopers from starwars ?.
 
2003-03-28 08:19:58 PM  
Lynch's movie was visually awsome. Not till Lord of the Rings has a book/movie been so alive. The only think that sucked were the Ornithropers, the Dune 2 game's were cooler. :)
 
2003-03-28 08:21:00 PM  
Lynch's yes. the new ones? feh...
/purist
 
2003-03-28 08:21:21 PM  
Err.. "been so alive" == IM*very*HO. :)

Some fans hate it, but having Captain Picard as Gurney was next to perfection - the guy in the series was a little on the tubby side. :)
 
2003-03-28 08:21:42 PM  
the Library of Alexandria

In a city founded by "the West," i.e. Greeks.

and Islam had inherited the knowledge and rich culture from the Greek, Persian and Roman empires

Inherit? You mean invade and stole. The so-called "dark ages" were so because the muslims had stolen all the knowledge and hoarded for themselves. And even still, they just didn't get it. They stifled the expansion of knowledge and focused instead on the perfection of knowledge. But, when the Europeans got their books back finally, it was a renassaince that quickly left the Islamic world in the dust, developmentally speaking.

/end ethnocentric rant

Moorish Spain was one of the most liberal places in all of Europe in it's day. You were a hell of a lot better off not being of the dominant religion there than after the Muslims were kicked out.

Yes. But being a pagan was zero tolerance in Islamic lands. Never think about that, do you? How many Hindus were slaughtered by Islam? Nothing in the crusades compares to the raw religious hate/killing that Islam directed to non-abrahamic faiths. Just a thought that messes up the "tolerance calculus," if you will.
 
2003-03-28 08:25:18 PM  
MorticianBaby, plus the dhimmitude too. An extremely heavy tax on non-Muslims that forced most who lived under their rule to convert or become bankrupt. Plus infidels (non muslims) basically lived like 2nd class citizens in Muslim lands. Let's face it, tolerance was not widely practiced by many people until Democracy came along.
 
eps
2003-03-28 08:25:37 PM  
Lynch's movie was visually awsome. Not till Lord of the Rings has a book/movie been so alive. The only think that sucked were the Ornithropers, the Dune 2 game's were cooler. :)

Thats pretty much my view of Lynch's movie as well, some of his deign choices were incredibly brave considering that he could have easliy lifted a lot of stuff from Star Wars and made a much more popular movie. However as visually stunning as it is, you can't ignore the fact that there is a lot of bad acting in the film, both lynch and harrison have treated Dune like shakespeare (especially harrison), so it comes across as being overly dramatic and unnatural. If only I could make my own version of Dune.

While the Dune geeks are out, is it worth asking what everyone thinks of the prequels or should I just leave that alone ?
 
2003-03-28 08:25:48 PM  
All I know is the Orange Julius stand is farked.
 
2003-03-28 08:25:50 PM  
(news coverage) And now back to "The Pretty Colorful War In Iraq" ...I dunno Maveno
 
2003-03-28 08:25:51 PM  
That's true. And it's still more rare around the world than it should be.
 
2003-03-28 08:26:11 PM  
Ninja_Pancakes
Stewart ws definately the better Haleck, especially in the late portions of the film.
 
2003-03-28 08:28:30 PM  
Kwisatz Haderich ?


Mabye we should make Saddam drink whatever that stuff was (worm juice???) to see if he is genuine - if he's still alive :)

Ninja Pancakes

BTW, Dune is great, a shame that now that all arabs are enemies reading about a jihad (Herbert used that word a lot in the books), reading it is considered subversion.

They banned Dune??? Geez. You'd think they would embrace it because of all the references...

EPS

Now - anything is much scarier than the storm troopers from Star Wars...bleh.
 
2003-03-28 08:29:21 PM  
Don't stop the Dune references, I feel like I stumbled into a group of real people who read real books. Not too many of those out there lately.

Anybody out there think the Aiel warriors from the Wheel of Time series are based on the Fremen of Dune? They are from a waterless desert, they're awesome fighters, they veil when they attack, et cetera.

Except they're all red-headed Irish types, that's a problem. But neato to think about.

/happy Frazetta_chick
 
2003-03-28 08:29:40 PM  
Eps
Havent read em yet. Im stuck in Qatar:( But, if theyre anything like the "Tolkien Junior" books, Im not too sure. I love Tolkien, dont get me wrong, but leave some of the mans notebooks alone for petes sake!!
 
2003-03-28 08:29:46 PM  
I don't go to Orange Julius stands anymore, cause 2 years ago, I was in line to order and some dude farted! That was it 4 me Flg8or
 
2003-03-28 08:30:29 PM  
I looked it up, the Sardaukar are the emperor's elite, from the planet Salusa Secundus, the most hostile planet in the universe, next to Arrakis.

The fedyakin are the Fremen death commandos, the Muad'dib's personal body gards. They also made up the core of the fremen fighting machine.
 
2003-03-28 08:31:31 PM  
Feydaukeen = Paul Muad'Dib's elite bodyguard,sworn to defend him to the death.
Sardaukar = Emperor Shaddam IV's shock troopers
Fremen = desert wanderers
The new movies suck nuts. Kyle Mc-whatever was a lot better as Paul than the new whiny loser,and how in God's name can anyone expect to top Sting(STING,people!) as Feyd-Rautha?
 
2003-03-28 08:32:25 PM  
Ok, enough debate on this war. Wether you're for it or against it, your minds aren't going to change now. These debates are just going to get people even more pissed off as they try to understand why the hell someone thinks another way. So instead of biatching, lets enjoy this:

[image from virtualroofie.com too old to be available]

[image from thefontman.com too old to be available]

[image from beachwearillustrated.com too old to be available]

[image from bol.ucla.edu too old to be available]
 
2003-03-28 08:32:37 PM  
Frazetta_chick
while i havent read the wheel of time series either (mostly reading geo-politics right now), the "Desert Fighter" is a pretty standard... device (? trying to avoid saying cliche) Arabs historically have been pretty mean fighters, but too tribal to accomplish much, until Islam.
 
eps
2003-03-28 08:33:47 PM  
Eps
Havent read em yet. Im stuck in Qatar:( But, if theyre anything like the "Tolkien Junior" books, Im not too sure. I love Tolkien, dont get me wrong, but leave some of the mans notebooks alone for petes sake!!


Some people can be very vitriolic about them, but while they obviously don't come up to the same standard has Frank Herbert's novels they are relatively enjoyable as seperate self contained stories (even if they are a bit throwaway). The Butlerian Jihad is interesting (mainly because it is set so far before FH's Dune it doesn't mess up the continuity).
 
2003-03-28 08:34:14 PM  
Nobody banned it, but when I was telling an american friend of mine about how the 'fedayeen' sound like the 'fedyakin' it dawned on me that Dune is also about a bunch of sand-people that overthrow a foreign, well armed, power using their own knowledge of their land.
 
2003-03-28 08:34:22 PM  
Kekko_Kamen
WE WERE TALKING HERE!!!!!
Hee hee, thanks anyway though. 'puters here have very agressive anti-boobies filters :(
 
2003-03-28 08:35:45 PM  
Anyone ever read the "Rose of the Prophet" trilogy from Margeret Weiss and Tracy Hickman?

Lots of djinns and stuff. Phat.
 
2003-03-28 08:38:09 PM  
Eps
you DO realize you just used "vitriolic" properly?;) Impressive, most impressive.
RE; the topic at hand- Dune is a very touchy universe to play in because of its religious nature. the entire thing is based around the idea of rebellion against the established religious order (Orange Catholic) and the recognition of a new Messianic figure. It also touches on the "Christ figure" analogy so beloved in western literature.
 
2003-03-28 08:38:22 PM  
Damn, I forgot Sting!!! What was it with that triangle???

BTW, the series, the first one at least, I didn't see Children of Dune yet, at least has some tchec (or other east-european) boobies, the only other east european boobies I see are silicon based, don't get me wrong, I like them, they are on GODDAMN HOT pr0nstars... :)
 
2003-03-28 08:39:08 PM  
If you want jinn (and are willing to try something other than sci fi) Naguib Mahfouz is a good read.
 
2003-03-28 08:39:50 PM  
Inherit? You mean invade and stole. The so-called "dark ages" were so because the muslims had stolen all the knowledge and hoarded for themselves. And even still, they just didn't get it. They stifled the expansion of knowledge and focused instead on the perfection of knowledge. But, when the Europeans got their books back finally, it was a renassaince that quickly left the Islamic world in the dust, developmentally speaking.

AHEM - Muslims all aside - the Dark Ages (and this is a disputed term BTW) - of apprx. 500-900 AD (after the fall of the Roman Empire and the rise of the Holy Roman Empire in Constantinopel - sp sucks!) throughout Northern Europe, was a time of feudalism, lots of death from disease, and the general decentralization of towns, communities, etc. (To be incredibly vague...).

However, the issue you are addressing is "where did the knowlege go that was stored by the Roman Empire?". Two answers (and honestly - there is TONS of speculation as to why this was - this is just the most current theory I know of).

1) Knowlege, during the "dark ages" was primarily "held" within abbeys, monastaries, and stuff that was controlled by the church. If da King wanted his kid to read, he hired a monk. Reading was not required. (a notable exception to this is the carolignian empire ie- Charlemange - who was the education king/feaudal beaurocrat).

2) Since most "knowlege" was held by the church, it was controlled by the church (in the later stages - by our buddies the Franciscans, who later had a splinter group named the Dominicans - who gave us the Inquisition).

Thus - "worldly" knowlege, such as anatomy, science, anything closely resembling reality, was considered the domain of the "devils playground" - and ordinary people were not permitted to be exposed to this.

Hence, you do not see "realistic" figures of madonnas, portraits in stone (very very Roman BTW) until the beginning of the 14th century (which is after high gothic - when the French got cooking with a mini renaisance of sorts,,,).

/the end.
 
eps
2003-03-28 08:41:43 PM  
Eps
you DO realize you just used "vitriolic" properly?;) Impressive, most impressive.


Why the surprise ?
 
Tor
2003-03-28 08:42:46 PM  
You're not missing much. Robert Jordan is the George Lucas of the literary world, both are good design/idea guys, both couldn't direct/write their way out of a paper bag.

Oh yeah, to any dune nerds out there, was there ever and explanation as to why a tribe of desert men could crush a uber-elite fanatically loyal bodyguard force with a huge technlogical advantage?
 
2003-03-28 08:42:48 PM  
Kudos on your inclusion of Mila Kunis in that post Kekko_Kamen. She's a cutey.
 
2003-03-28 08:44:14 PM  
For those of you keeping score at home, that's 12 geeks currently going strong

(brought to you by the fine folks at Spot the Geek ™)
 
2003-03-28 08:44:31 PM  
Faethe
Very good point. Lets not forget that the Renaissance came about BECAUSE people learned to read. Maybe if we can teach the Middle East to read....
/jus'thinkin....
 
2003-03-28 08:44:42 PM  
When I read Dune I stopped being catholic. It opened my eyes to religion. I'm not against it or against anyone else's belief in any way but I feel that I didn't needed it anymore.

Dune wasn't as moving as some other books I've read but its political, religious, anti-technological, cloning and other themes turned into a VERY dense and pleasant series.
 
2003-03-28 08:45:05 PM  
Anybody out there think the Aiel warriors from the Wheel of Time series are based on the Fremen of Dune? They are from a waterless desert, they're awesome fighters, they veil when they attack, et cetera.

Yeah Frazetta Chick - no doubt. I read thisall the way up until the last book, and I have now officially given up. Have you read the latest book? Is it any good? Do they actually DO anything in it?
 
2003-03-28 08:46:15 PM  
You're only counting Dune geeks though. While I loved Dune, and thought some of the other books in the series were pretty good, I'm not a Dune Geek.

I could tell you all about The White Plague though.
 
eps
2003-03-28 08:47:42 PM  
Oh yeah, to any dune nerds out there, was there ever and explanation as to why a tribe of desert men could crush a uber-elite fanatically loyal bodyguard force with a huge technlogical advantage?

My nred credentials are quite up to scratch so I may have this wrong but didn't they have access to the atreides's atomic weapons ?
 
2003-03-28 08:49:10 PM  
Tor:

They knew the land, they were being opressed by the foreign power and, most importantly, they had HUGE MUTHERFARKING worms.

BTW, they kept a significant advantage since they could stop the flow of spice - they were out gunned but their enemies' alliances were very weak since nobody wanted the spice to stop.
 
2003-03-28 08:49:35 PM  

You HAVE been on other threads here, right? Knuckle dragging seems to be the norm in these parts. Plus, i love that word.

Tor

Religious conviction and Wierding Modules. They (Fremen)actually had superior 'tech, and weren't inhibited by not having shields. In any battle, its really about the fighters, not the tech.
 
2003-03-28 08:51:07 PM  
The family atomics were used to shatter the shield wall of Arakeen (sp?). Paul couldn't use it against anyone to not lose his claim in the Landsraad.

DAMN I'm a nerd. :)
 
2003-03-28 08:51:48 PM  
oops, forgot to close tags. sorry all!!
 
2003-03-28 08:52:41 PM  
Could Tel Aviv be next???

Worse things have happened...
 
2003-03-28 08:53:05 PM  
Ender

Very good point. Lets not forget that the Renaissance came about BECAUSE people learned to read. Maybe if we can teach the Middle East to read....

Very TRUE - the specific reason the Rennaisance came about (OK - this is another current trendy *theory* - everything is a *theory* when dealing with MOST history) is that in Florence, specifically, power and cash shifted from feudal monarchies and the church, to elite merchant bankers (like da Medici), and thus, a "middle class" of sorts, with it's own armies, politicians (people in da vatican), and scholars became a fixed part of society. Reading was still something very limited, but as the merchant class grew, so did schools, educations, and eventually, (like 300 years later) the enlightenment...

so if you are going to go off history, if you give Iraq a free middle class, things will explode on thier own. And they will have it - they do have all this oil...
 
2003-03-28 08:53:31 PM  
Sarduakar also weren;t used to losing, so when it happenned, they sorta went "Doh!!"
/ Realizes what he just typed, and looks at the clothes he's wearing. "Oh crap...."
 
2003-03-28 08:54:14 PM  
The weirding modules were Lynch's thing. The weirding ways was a fighting technique taught by Jessica to the Fremen so that her life could be spared.
 
2003-03-28 08:54:18 PM  
The Islamic conquering of the Roman empire was uncalled for and meant genocide for the Romans, and there is no doubt that this was a setback to the development of civilzation, not a boon.

If Islam had not conquered the Roman Empire, I'm convinced it would have been the Christian Romans who would have been seen as the fulcrum of science and knowledge and that their civilization would have advanced farther. But I guess might is right and a rigid slavelike society is "beautiful". Go figure.

/blah
 
2003-03-28 08:56:49 PM  
so if you are going to go off history, if you give Iraq a free middle class, things will explode on thier own. And they will have it - they do have all this oil...


I totally agree. After all, immigrants to America from all sorts of repressive cultures are able to figure out democracy remarkable fast once they have access to the middle class.
 
2003-03-28 08:57:32 PM  
Faethe
The Adam Smith theory of social progress? Enlightened Self Interest, spread of Capitalism, and the societally leveling effect of the "Invisible hand of the Market". Of course, thats assuming no entrenched interests, such as pre-existing class structure, which Florence Et al avoided by creating a new class. Can we apply this to 21st century Iraq, or the Greater ?Middle East? discuss;)
 
2003-03-28 08:58:14 PM  
Ender: Ah, renaissance Florence... :)

The Medici family was afraid to lose power to the church so they funded "heathen" artists and thinkers - I believe Maquiavel was one of them.
 
2003-03-28 09:01:06 PM  
Morticianbaby
Umm... Islam didnt exist until 600CE or so, so they couldnt have invaded the Roman Empire. It was the Goths, Visigiths, Gauls, etc who invaded Rome, from 200-400CE, when the Empire collapsed and the "Dark Ages' Began.
/History geek too;)
 
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