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(Washington Post) NewsFlash Large explosion in Kuwait City   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 496
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34 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Mar 2003 at 6:05 PM (11 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»


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Archived thread
 
2003-03-28 06:07:07 PM
Boom!
 
2003-03-28 06:07:18 PM
Hit a shopping mall
 
2003-03-28 06:07:31 PM
I suppose now Iraq has set Kuwait up the bomb?
 
2003-03-28 06:07:41 PM
KAPOW 3RD POST!
 
2003-03-28 06:08:01 PM
wolf was there!
 
2003-03-28 06:08:10 PM
That three sentence article was hardly news worthy. Let alone a News Flash worthy article
 
2003-03-28 06:08:25 PM
Ha ha! It was the 4th!
 
2003-03-28 06:08:26 PM
"Boom" - P.O.D.
 
2003-03-28 06:08:45 PM
Jeez who would have known.

Middle East=Terrorist Center of the Earth
 
2003-03-28 06:08:47 PM
turn on CNN
 
2003-03-28 06:08:51 PM
How can that be?
 
2003-03-28 06:09:13 PM
There was a large explosion in my underwear..
 
2003-03-28 06:09:30 PM
Lordy Magdalina!
 
2003-03-28 06:09:55 PM
There is an explosion AND?? That website listing sucks ass.
 
2003-03-28 06:10:18 PM
shortest article ever!
 
2003-03-28 06:10:27 PM
Can I get a link with less information please?
 
2003-03-28 06:10:30 PM
ThAT WILL TEACH U TO GIVE US KEYS TO YOUR CITYS.
 
2003-03-28 06:10:53 PM
Hopefully this won't lead to war.
 
2003-03-28 06:11:11 PM
i farted on kuwait... it went boomshakalaka
 
2003-03-28 06:11:21 PM
I have to register to see the article?
 
2003-03-28 06:11:22 PM
TMI
Too much info
 
2003-03-28 06:11:38 PM
Kuwait is confirming on Fox that missile hit Kuwait City.
 
2003-03-28 06:11:46 PM
Well MSNBC has live video for those of you who don't have acsess to a TV rite now.


http://www.msnbc.com/m/lv/default.asp?0cm=c50</a
 
2003-03-28 06:12:17 PM
I am shawed and awked.
 
2003-03-28 06:12:19 PM
We'll write more later. We've been a little busy today.
 
2003-03-28 06:12:20 PM
Skid marks. lol.
 
2003-03-28 06:12:25 PM
I'm getting real sick of this war. I say we pull back our troops 60 miles from Baghdad, nuke the ever loving fark out of them, collect our oil, and go home.
 
2003-03-28 06:12:25 PM
OK, well, upon turning on the trusty (terribly biased) CNN. It looked pretty huge, and thus News Worthy. Did they say that the Coalition set up Kuwait the bomb? And Productive Slacker : That song is by SOAD, similar in sound and genre, but at least its politically motivated nu-metal.
 
2003-03-28 06:13:05 PM
Dining tip: slice a couple of Kuwaits thinly and layer over shortcake. Yum! Make sure you use authentic New Zealand Kuwaits.
 
2003-03-28 06:14:02 PM
Kuwaiti authorities say it was a missle.
 
2003-03-28 06:14:10 PM
Am I the only one that WashingtonPost.com tries to force to register before I can read their articles?
 
2003-03-28 06:14:11 PM
03-28-03 06:12:25 PM I_Can't_Believe_It's_Not_Smegma
I'm getting real sick of this war. I say we pull back our troops 60 miles from Baghdad, nuke the ever loving fark out of them, collect our oil, and go home.


I agree with pulling the troops back, but to say you are sick of it and want to nuke the place... I don't know what to say. I hope you're being sarcastic here.
 
2003-03-28 06:14:30 PM
Haven't there been explosions for weeks now?
 
2003-03-28 06:15:03 PM
I don't have time to read the whole article. Someone sum it up for me.
 
2003-03-28 06:15:08 PM
Breaking news on TV says that nothing was tracked on radar. Hmmm...
 
2003-03-28 06:15:24 PM
We should send some troops over to Kuwait. We might be able to help.
 
2003-03-28 06:15:26 PM
It's the E.L.F.!!!!!!!
 
2003-03-28 06:15:43 PM
You_mean_Im_gonna_stay_this_color
yellow light on, yellow light off.
yellow light on, yellow light off.
 
2003-03-28 06:15:58 PM
JerseyTim The article is SERIOUSLY 3 - 4 sentences long. I hope you were being sarcastic.
 
2003-03-28 06:16:48 PM
CNN reporter says explosion seemed to have come from the ground (as opposed to air) -> possible terrorist attack? No injuries, as of right now....Ugh.
 
2003-03-28 06:16:49 PM
aw man, they just copied from the CNN scroll. Cheaterz!
 
Zed
2003-03-28 06:16:56 PM
Considering its only 3am or so in Kuwait hopefully there weren't a lot of people around.
 
2003-03-28 06:17:01 PM
Mike_from_Accounting-
"Hopefully this won't lead to war"

That was the best dry humor I have seen in a long long time.
 
2003-03-28 06:17:13 PM
CNN's correspondent says it appears to be a ground based bomb.
 
2003-03-28 06:17:17 PM
natural gas line go boom. it go boom cuz it leaked. and leak met cugarette and go boom.
 
2003-03-28 06:17:17 PM
JerseyTim LOL! that totally cracked me up. but i amuse easily.
 
2003-03-28 06:17:18 PM
Basketcase

Both SOAD and POD have songs called "Boom". The POD song isn't that political though.
 
2003-03-28 06:17:34 PM
Totally Iraqi terrorists
 
2003-03-28 06:17:49 PM
Dammit that sucks!
 
2003-03-28 06:18:50 PM
CNN = old and busted.

Kuwaiti tv is saying it was a missle per MSNBC
 
eps
2003-03-28 06:19:12 PM
probably ours

/sigh
 
2003-03-28 06:19:51 PM
doing some good panning back and forth on that video stream now
 
2003-03-28 06:20:30 PM
I meant to switch to Fox News, but instead ended up watching Cartoon Network.

I am now watching a show entitled "Yuyu Hakusho" and it has both foreigners and explosions.

Good times.
 
2003-03-28 06:20:40 PM
News talkies say no one was hurt.
 
2003-03-28 06:20:51 PM
BASKETCASE - "Boom" is the third song on Satellite from P.O.D., thank you
 
eps
2003-03-28 06:20:53 PM
Lets get my third world war on.
 
2003-03-28 06:21:13 PM
The war isn't just about Dick's oil company. Plenty of other people have invested contributions on this land grab.
 
2003-03-28 06:21:30 PM
The Fox News acrticle is even shorter
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,82530,00.html
 
2003-03-28 06:21:41 PM
THAT DOES IT! IM GETTING DRUNK!
 
2003-03-28 06:21:52 PM
WOW if that isn't a fact base news article then I dunno what is. Why even bother until you have more? Oh, thats right, the media has made this all a competition to see who reports what first

/rant
 
2003-03-28 06:21:57 PM
Holy Shi'ite
 
2003-03-28 06:22:02 PM
Explosion in Kuwait.
Dog bites man.

It ain't news.
 
2003-03-28 06:22:11 PM
Damn, I'm sure that pissed off the spelling Nazis
 
2003-03-28 06:23:07 PM
They have malls in Kuwait? What the hell do the sell, camel hide?
 
2003-03-28 06:23:16 PM
Productive Slacker
and
Jabber :
I stand corrected, and withdraw my comment. Thank you
 
2003-03-28 06:23:38 PM
That was perfect, Boomslang.
 
2003-03-28 06:23:56 PM
I'm with Tibis for no other reason than its Friday and I'm getting the hell out of here. caio
 
2003-03-28 06:24:29 PM
That footage they're showing on CNN of the huge flash and blast is pretty damn impressive.
 
2003-03-28 06:24:57 PM
BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM ewwwww awwwwww purty
 
2003-03-28 06:25:14 PM
03-28-03 06:23:07 PM Soccermom
They have malls in Kuwait? What the hell do the sell, camel hide?


Um...they have a Gap and a Starbucks, too.
 
2003-03-28 06:25:23 PM
"NBC special report:
U.S. at war"

Thank you NBC!
 
2003-03-28 06:25:47 PM
Jeebus Vominator got enough pics of that Mig crash that happened last century? Perhaps a link to a video would have sufficed.
 
2003-03-28 06:25:53 PM
Democrats saying it's an errant US issile in 3, 2, 1...

In the alternative:

Reporters asking if the US untentionally targeted a Kuwaiti civilian area in 3, 2, 1...
 
2003-03-28 06:26:13 PM
 
2003-03-28 06:26:28 PM
03-28-03 06:25:14 PM DrToast
03-28-03 06:23:07 PM Soccermom
They have malls in Kuwait? What the hell do the sell, camel hide?

Um...they have a Gap and a Starbucks, too.


And a GNC and Radio Shack. Every mall in the world has to at least have those. 'Else it ain't a mall.
 
2003-03-28 06:26:39 PM

Yuyu Hakusho!
 
2003-03-28 06:26:49 PM


Anyone know where I can find this protest?
 
2003-03-28 06:27:01 PM
Vominator, is there a reason why you had a string of pictures from a couple of russian crashes ready? It could have just as easily been a coalition helicopter display....
 
2003-03-28 06:27:29 PM
Who will the 'Arab Street' be outraged at?!
 
2003-03-28 06:28:34 PM
Fantastic article. I paid for the whole seat, but only needed the edge!

TheTerrorists

Hey, thanks for stopping by.

One request, please: stay in one place. It's a pain in the a$$ for our guys to make martyrs out of ya when all you do is run around like rats.
 
2003-03-28 06:28:49 PM
They're saying most of the stores were closed at the time of the blast...? I hope so.
 
2003-03-28 06:29:25 PM

"Ba-da boom"
 
2003-03-28 06:29:51 PM
Vici,A security official, who would not allow himself to be identified, confirmed that the explosion rocked that area before 2 a.m. local time (2300 GMT Friday). Officials promised more information later.

Cool. A Kuwaiti rent-a-cop.
 
2003-03-28 06:30:03 PM
Vici: It was at like 1:30 am local time, I doubt the mall was even open.
 
2003-03-28 06:30:31 PM
I think I have been to that mall. It is pretty nice. All of Kuwait City is pretty nifty. Sort of like Miami in the desert without all the hot chicks.
 
2003-03-28 06:30:59 PM
News says it was a missile that hit a shopping mall, and it's 2:30 in the morning. let's ay this happened in the last two hours, who is at a mall at 12:30am? Just thinking.....
 
2003-03-28 06:31:08 PM
Mindboggling... The number of farkers who cannot make the difference between Kuwait City and Baghdad... Absolutely mindboggling !
 
2003-03-28 06:31:32 PM
Bashturn, it's sad, really.
 
2003-03-28 06:32:05 PM
Yeah, well, while everyone is focused half-way around the world - they've got "Report Terrorism" and a tip line posted on the highway overhead alert signs here in the DC area now.... even though there was a 3 mile backup just down the road. I think they're trying to tell us something.
 
2003-03-28 06:32:09 PM
Totally Iraqi terrorists

I guess I just don't get it.

I thought when you were in an army at war, blowing up the other side's stuff was sorta your job. Or do our enemies no longer get to shoot back when we invade?

I think we owe our troops some modicum of challenge.
 
2003-03-28 06:32:37 PM
Hey! Where's my 'boobies' link? It was great! www.bombasses.ht.st !!
 
2003-03-28 06:32:38 PM
It was probably pro-Iraqi terrorists just decided to send Kuwait a little wake-up call about its support of the US.
 
2003-03-28 06:32:41 PM
This is what I was waiting to read:

possible terrorist attack? No injuries, as of right now....Ugh.

No, this is war. Kuwait is hosting our soldiers. They bear as much responsibility as coalition soldiers do. We launch missiles at Baghdad. It's not terrorism. It's war.

If Iraq can't launch their missiles at Kuwait, then maybe they're hand-delivering them. Either way, it's war.
 
2003-03-28 06:33:30 PM
and that ladys and gents is why the us central command is in qatar.
 
2003-03-28 06:33:42 PM
My link has to be in the submission queue! Somebody approve it!
 
2003-03-28 06:33:47 PM
S5030 If I find out - I'll let you know - please do the same - I'd love to have one!
 
2003-03-28 06:33:57 PM
Hey Vici, thanks for the cam pic from earlier this week :)
 
2003-03-28 06:34:23 PM
SchlingFo, if they were hand-delivering a missile to the Kuwaiti Ministry of Defense then that would be war. Blowing up a mall on purpose is terrorism.
 
2003-03-28 06:34:59 PM
Elvira--Wacky thing happened here about 8 this morning. The Emergency Broadcast System went off, all the TV channels went to a black screen that said "Civil Emergency.......further instructions will follow." About 10 minutes later it changed to the standard "Monthly Test of the Emergency Broadcast System." screen. Scared the crap out of my wife and kids.
 
2003-03-28 06:35:09 PM
Patriot batteries asleep at the wheel. We hit Command and Control sites...they hit shopping malls. They deserve to lose.

Well, if CNN is to be believed, we've hit two market areas in Iraq so....
 
2003-03-28 06:35:10 PM
03-28-03 06:32:09 PM Avery1415
I guess I just don't get it.

I thought when you were in an army at war, blowing up the other side's stuff was sorta your job. Or do our enemies no longer get to shoot back when we invade?


So there were American troops and tanks in the mall? I guess they wanted a late night Orange Julius and a Cinna-bun, right?
 
2003-03-28 06:35:18 PM
'Ope it twern't a doity bomb.
 
2003-03-28 06:35:28 PM
anyone seeing the pictures of inside the mall on cnn atm? A couple of pieces of plaster on the floor, and a ton of kuwaitis going in to look.
 
2003-03-28 06:35:32 PM
Well I meant www.bonnasses.ht.st
Quite the same word in French...
 
2003-03-28 06:35:46 PM
From what my friend has told me, Kuwait has been hit by missles a few times since the war started (I heard this the day after the war started). The media hasn't reported it. My friend grew up in Kuwait, and gets info from her friends there through email. No, I cannot prove this.
 
2003-03-28 06:36:23 PM
[i]03-28-03 06:30:31 PM Harryhausen
I think I have been to that mall. It is pretty nice. All of Kuwait City is pretty nifty. Sort of like Miami in the desert without all the hot chicks
[/i]

Man I used to want to visit kuwait really badly. I used to live up in Dharan (KSA). I used to wonder if this is so nice, how nice must Kuwait City must be.
 
2003-03-28 06:37:02 PM
So, when will this war go into syndication?

It has its entertaining parts, but like the show, "I'm a celebrity, get me outta here!" having it on each and every day, with all the yabbering people is just getting old.

Can we just put it on Thursday evenings, opposite Frieds?

That way I could set my VCR.

/a-hem
 
2003-03-28 06:37:23 PM
Not very informative.
 
2003-03-28 06:37:29 PM
BBCrackmonkey,

We targeted a residential area for our first attack. I think it was a smart thing to do, and I don't view it as terrorism. If Iraq thinks that targeting civilian areas (assuming this is, indeed, Iraq) will help them, then go for it.
 
2003-03-28 06:37:43 PM
Leave it to me to not do the math...
 
2003-03-28 06:37:49 PM
Harryhausen I bet!! IMHO, I HATE the new EBC signal - it just doesn't have the same... "emergency" feeling the old one did. And growing up we knew the air-raid sirens went off on the 3rd Wednesday of the month at noon. Not this random crap.arts4me
 
2003-03-28 06:39:04 PM
Wldncrzy14:

Milla Jovovich may well be the sexiest girl in the entire world. If she has any competition, it's Franka Potente. Maybe I should move to Germany.
 
2003-03-28 06:39:05 PM
Avery1415, by accident. We don't specifically target markets. We don't sit around in our war rooms thinking that blowing up a bunch of vegetable stands is a proper use of our military ordinance.

Or perhaps you make no moral difference between a murderer using a hostage as a shield and a cop trying to shoot at him.

So far all of the Iraqi tactics are totally reliant on American moral superiority. Human shields. Fake surrenders. Civilian clothing. Using hospitals as military bases. Etc.
 
2003-03-28 06:39:19 PM
Lets hope it wasnt a dirty bomb or something along those lines.
 
2003-03-28 06:39:31 PM
Never been to SA, been to Bahrain, Qatar, Yemen and Kuwait. Of all of them Kuwait was the nicest with Bahrain a very close second. I have a feeling I will be going back there soon. I hope to get to Dubai the next time around. Then again that 2 year tour at NAS Oceana is looking very tempting right about now.
 
2003-03-28 06:39:34 PM
Umm, that's EBS, and this randon crap irks me.... WTF was that?
 
2003-03-28 06:39:53 PM
/Off Topic

Sorry to threadjack. I'm going to Best Buy to get a game... should I get I.G.I. 2: Covert Strike, or Battlefield 1942 in anticipation of Desert Combat .3? I really can't decide.
 
2003-03-28 06:40:10 PM
WTF do you morons expect ?

Did you really think Saddam would give up without a fight ?
 
2003-03-28 06:40:11 PM
S5030:Anyone know where I can find this protest?

Hot diggity, sign me up for that protest!
 
2003-03-28 06:40:15 PM
Coalition bomb Iraqi civilians, Iraq bomb coalition civilians.
That's war for you - you started it, now quit yer whing.
 
2003-03-28 06:40:32 PM

Here's a kuwaiti mall. Note the complete absence of camel-hide and ignoramuses.
 
2003-03-28 06:40:40 PM
SchlingFo, we targeted a residential area because it was a phucking military bunker in disguise you idiot.

So unless there is a military bunker underneath that mall housing our generals....

*rolls eyes*
 
2003-03-28 06:41:21 PM
Whining. Quit yer whining.
 
2003-03-28 06:42:06 PM
Remember, any actions commited by the enemy-other than total unconditional surrender to US forces-is considered an act of terrorism and/or a war crime. The proper rules of war state that the U.S. armed forces are permitted to attack any one with any kind of weapon without fear of retaliation. They are also examped from being charged with war crimes. Call it Manifest Destiny Immunity: americans are the rightful rulers of Earth and to deny them their divine right to rule is a sin against Satan God.

I hope this is sarcasm...
 
2003-03-28 06:42:09 PM
BBcrackmonkey
Of course your comments assume that invading Iraq in the first place puts the US on the "high moral ground".

Of course, France's willingness to keep paying Saddam so they can keep their oil contract ain't 'zactly sainltly.

*opens bag o' marshmallows and waits for flames to start*
 
2003-03-28 06:42:24 PM
Dev2r,

Is the camel parking outside? is it covered? I would hate for my camel to wait outside in the hot sun.
 
2003-03-28 06:42:40 PM
I have a great idea to pay for the war for all the people that are whining about the cost and losing their tax cut.

Put the cameras on the front of the missiles on Pay-Per-View.
 
2003-03-28 06:43:24 PM
Milla Jovovich may well be the sexiest girl in the entire world. If she has any competition, it's Franka Potente.

Are you mad? Milla Jovovich is in a world of hotness beyond what Franka Potente can ever hope to achieve.
 
2003-03-28 06:43:36 PM
Vominator

maybe the russians are having an airshow

if i get fired for laughing this much i will hunt you down.
 
2003-03-28 06:43:44 PM
Soccermom:

I lived in Dharan for a little while too when I was little. Good 'ol Aramco.
 
2003-03-28 06:44:26 PM
Well, the mall DID have a large underground facility... but that was just for camel parking.... really!
 
2003-03-28 06:44:40 PM
Bbcrackmonkey
SchlingFo, we targeted a residential area because it was a phucking military bunker in disguise you idiot.

So unless there is a military bunker underneath that mall housing our generals....

*rolls eyes*

Just like that chemical weapons factory that turned out to be an asprin factory, right?
 
2003-03-28 06:44:53 PM
"BBcrackmonkey
Of course your comments assume that invading Iraq in the first place puts the US on the "high moral ground"."

I didn't say that Slikrx. Don't put words into my mouth. I said that all of their military tactics and indeed their overall strategy relies on our moral superiority to avoid civilian deaths and minimize collateral damage.
 
2003-03-28 06:44:57 PM
I honestly could care less.
 
2003-03-28 06:45:01 PM
 
2003-03-28 06:45:24 PM
MSNBC just showed a piece of the missile in the mall. It had writing on it in English.

Of course, they were speculating that it was part of the missile. Could have been part of something the missile hit.
 
2003-03-28 06:45:27 PM
Tottie,

Nah, no Aramco here. Actually I just say I lived in Dharan, cuz its easier for people to know. I actually lived in Al-Hasa. Nice traditional place, you get to see the real KSA, not a fabricated version made of malls and the Corniche.
 
2003-03-28 06:46:13 PM
Slikrx, the mall had a large underground facility, as do almost all malls. They are called basements you retard.
 
2003-03-28 06:47:24 PM
RaoulDuke
A: a lousy photoshop
 
2003-03-28 06:47:33 PM
The media has, once again, turned a war into an extended sports game. Complete with commentary, behind the scenes, and instant replays. This war is such a farking joke now, it's pathetic. I cannot take this shiat serious anymore. I just hope that it doesn't get any worse than it is.
 
2003-03-28 06:47:38 PM
So there were American troops and tanks in the mall? I guess they wanted a late night Orange Julius and a Cinna-bun, right?

In WWII we had a policy of "dehousing" German civilians. The logic being that the housewife who made a sandwich for the guy who made ball bearings for the tanks that shot at our boys was a military target.

Now we have fancy high tech weaponry and don't need to pussy-foot around with that kind of crap any more. Iraq doesn't, so they're doing what we did back when we had their crappy level of military technology. As I see it we have three choices:

1) Realize, "Oh yeah, its a farking war!"
2) Give them super accurate smart weapons to shoot at our forces.
3) Whine about terrorism and execute a bunch of our own WWII vetrans for the firestorm in Dresden to make a point of what we will and will not tollerate.

I vote for #1.
 
2003-03-28 06:48:35 PM
methinks is was one of our tomohawks that when off course 'slightly' again. I heard they said is came in so low the radars didn't pick it up and so the air raid sirens didn't sound, and i don't think iraqi missles can go very low without crashing into a sand dune.
 
2003-03-28 06:48:42 PM
RaoulDuke It's the Peace sign with a big FU in the middle!!
 
2003-03-28 06:49:51 PM
Avery1415, I fail to see how Iraq blowing up Kuwaiti malls can be construed as anything but terrorism, if that is indeed the case. If this was indeed an Iraqi attack then it is a very stupid attack and a waste of a bomb that could have been used on the troops that are actually attacking it.
 
2003-03-28 06:50:37 PM
Avery1415

I'm not whining - of course it's war. However, I am wondering what is the military value of launching a missile you can't aim? At least all of ours have a specific target in mind. The target of theirs is "the ground". All this does is enrage people and ruin Saddam's "victim" act.
 
2003-03-28 06:51:05 PM
I dunno, Dev2r, there could very well be an ignoramus or two in that picture. Depends on whether or not the mall has an Old Navy or a Sunglasses Hut kiosk, I suppose.
 
2003-03-28 06:51:41 PM
In WWII terrorists were called saboteurs.
 
2003-03-28 06:51:54 PM
That news article that the link is pointing toseems to be morphing. Took a look at it at it at about 6:08 PM EST.
The description "Short and terse on both length and content." would have been longer longer than the article.

The article now has more info than just 'There was a large explosion in Kuwait, the Arab Emirates south-east of Iraq.' (paraphrased). Also the grammer in the article has greatly improved.
 
2003-03-28 06:52:49 PM
03-28-03 06:45:01 PM RaoulDuke

Bush's IQ or Sperm count.


Ba-dop Bing.
 
2003-03-28 06:52:50 PM
This could have very well been an accidental explosion of US ordinance. The only other thing that I could understand it as would be some sort of natural gas leak or an overt threat to Kuwait that terrorists would start attacking its civilian targets soon.
 
2003-03-28 06:52:51 PM
BBcrackmonkey..

Good point, but I'm afraid you're stating the obvious.
 
2003-03-28 06:55:30 PM
What? You mean the iraqis are shooting back!?
I thougt war would be all fun and games!
 
2003-03-28 06:55:40 PM
03-28-03 06:52:50 PM Bbcrackmonkey
This could have very well been an accidental explosion of US ordinance...


Could you explain this? Do you think there was ordinance in the mall?
 
2003-03-28 06:56:10 PM
Avery1415
Warfare has changed quite a bit since WWII. Civilians are protected from being targeted by the Geneva convention of which Iraq is a signatory (if, in fact, this was an Iraqi missle).
 
2003-03-28 06:57:13 PM
I'm not whining - of course it's war. However, I am wondering what is the military value of launching a missile you can't aim?

"un-aimed missiles"? i believe those are called rockets.
 
2003-03-28 06:58:17 PM
Too2ez, ordinance is any type of ammunition, including missiles and bombs. Anything that is supposed to be thrown at the enemy with the intention of hitting them and not being able to retrieved after usage can be construed as ordinance.

What would be more clear would be to say this could have easily been a Tomahawk missile that went way off course because of some glitch.
 
2003-03-28 06:59:02 PM
Here's the skinny:

Associated Press


KUWAIT CITY (AP)--A missile fell into the sea and exploded near a major shopping mall in Kuwait City early Saturday, but officials said it caused no injuries and little damage.

Police Brig. Ahmed al-Rujaid said the missile landed at about 1:45 a.m. (5:45 p.m. EST Friday) close to the Souq Sharq mall, a multilevel shopping center that's one of Kuwait's largest.

``There were no injuries and material damage is very small,'' al-Rujaid said.

Parts of the ceiling and walls littered the ground in a covered entry way after the explosion. Glass doors and windows were shattered and some doors were knocked off their hinges. Television images also showed smoke rising over the Kuwaiti skyline.

Souq Sharq is on the Kuwaiti seafront and includes a marina, shops and restaurants.

U.S. Patriot missile batteries guard Kuwait against missile attacks by neighboring Iraq. In Doha, Qatar, the U.S. Central Command said it was investigating the explosion but had no further information and could not confirm a missile attack.

It's the 13th missile fired at Kuwait since the U.S.-led military campaign to oust Iraq's Saddam Hussein began on March 20. None is believed to have carried chemical or biological warheads, and none has caused damage or injury. Several have been destroyed by Patriots.

On Thursday, civilian defense officials in Kuwait said a U.S. Patriot missile knocked down an Iraqi missile fired from southern Iraq. No debris was reported to have fallen on populated areas.

Air raid sirens have sounded repeatedly since the war began last week, cautioning the 2.3 million residents of this small, oil-rich state to take cover.

Four of the missile strikes were believed to involve Scuds _ which Iraq also is banned from possessing. Two others were identified as Chinese-made surface-to-surface Silkworm missiles, Kuwait officials said.

Kuwait, a tiny oil-rich emirate just south of Iraq where U.S. and British forces have been massing for months, was a certain Iraqi target. Within hours of the first U.S. strike on Baghdad on Thursday, sirens blared throughout Kuwait City, sending jittery residents scrambling for bomb shelters, some carrying gas masks and chemical suits.
 
2003-03-28 06:59:25 PM
There once was a girl from Basra
Who wanted a little fatwah
One look at this hottie
and it was full-on jihadi
rockin' that sweet kasbah


/nothin'
 
2003-03-28 06:59:48 PM
Elvira...

har har! good one.... i should have known that finger when i saw it.

always reminded me of some sort of weird WWIII symbol or sump'n - scary.
 
2003-03-28 07:00:09 PM
You know, we're probably getting ourselves all worked up about nothing. This is probably some natural gas explosion or a boiler explosion. Who knows?
 
2003-03-28 07:00:24 PM
Bbcrackmonkey : I've never been in a mall that had a basement, at least to my knowledge. Most of them seem to constructed on the premise that it was easier to eat up a little more real-estate to provide room for facilities equipment than to build a basement.
 
2003-03-28 07:01:46 PM
I'm not whining - of course it's war. However, I am wondering what is the military value of launching a missile you can't aim? At least all of ours have a specific target in mind. The target of theirs is "the ground". All this does is enrage people and ruin Saddam's "victim" act.

I'm not saying it's a good strategy. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's a really crappy strategy. I just object to calling a counter attack, no matter how unwisely targeted, an act of terrorism.

I mean, let's face it. Duhbya has pretty much said he will not be satisfied until he is presented with the heads of Sadam Hussein and his sons. So what's Saddam's motivation? If he's half as blood thirsty as some farkers who've been commenting, it's to get as much revenge as possible in the time he has left.
 
2003-03-28 07:04:08 PM
Whoops. forgot to have the wife proof-read on my prior post.

Should have been ...eat up a little more real-estate than build a basement to provide room for the facilities equipment.
 
2003-03-28 07:04:12 PM
I'm not saying it's a good strategy. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's a really crappy strategy. I just object to calling a counter attack, no matter how unwisely targeted, an act of terrorism.

Actually it's closer to being a terrorist attack than a counter attack if it was targeted at civilians.
 
2003-03-28 07:04:16 PM
Thanks bobneilious. Apparently just another Iraqi missile attack. Really Saddam should start using his chem and bio weapons soon before he has any chance to actually strike at Kuwait with any missiles.

Man oh man. Imagine what would happen if Saddam released a vaccine-resistant small-pox that was cooked up in some Soviet lab? That shiat would kill like a billion people.
 
2003-03-28 07:06:27 PM
Enough of all this war, terrorism, and death. All we really need to solve the world's problems is a psychokitty.
 
2003-03-28 07:06:46 PM
phew, glad damage was small. The new burqa lines are coming in next week..
 
2003-03-28 07:06:51 PM
03-28-03 07:01:46 PM Avery1415
... Duhbya has pretty much said he will not be satisfied until he is presented with the heads of Sadam Hussein and his sons. So what's Saddam's motivation? If he's half as blood thirsty as some farkers who've been commenting, it's to get as much revenge as possible in the time he has left.


I'll agree that you're correct about Saddam's motivations. However, I would not expect a lot of what you called "revenge" attacks until the very end. The reason is that he plays a real good PR game and his control of world opinion will only hold out as long he can seem as if he is ONLY defending his country. That's also why I doubt they will use chem weapons until the bitter end - if at all. Once he uses them, he loses a lot of the sympathy he's had.
 
2003-03-28 07:07:21 PM
SmokeGrinder, it depends on the size of the mall. Keep in mind this seems like a multi-story mall, which would mean that it definitely has a basement.

And if there's any sort of underground facility at the mall that has some sort of wartime purpose, its probably an emergency a bomb shelter for civilians.

The US doesn't need to hide command bunkers underneath malls.

Of course this attack wasn't actually aimed at the mall. It was just some long range missile that wasn't really aimed at anything.
 
2003-03-28 07:07:48 PM
my guess is that this is a US missle (or one originally manufactured in and then sold from the US) - but gee, what do i know? i'm just a lowly citizen.
 
2003-03-28 07:08:40 PM
03-28-03 07:06:46 PM ChicoEscuela
phew, glad damage was small. The new burqa lines are coming in next week..


YEAH - and I hear they might be showing a little ankle this year! Woo-Hoo.
 
2003-03-28 07:09:18 PM
"Targetted" a mall?

Our "precision" bombs hit Iran.
 
2003-03-28 07:09:32 PM
RaoulDuke

i was under the impression that iraq had the capacity to make its own missiles.

could be wrong....
 
2003-03-28 07:10:02 PM
ChicoEscuela...
Base-a-ball-a been-a beddy, beddy a good to you. Da limericks-a... I don't know.

Try this one on...

There once was this man named Saddam,
Who killed his own people for fun.
For years he played tricks,
Hid his missles from Blix,
'till America set him up the bomb.
 
2003-03-28 07:10:29 PM
RaoulDuke, the US definitely does not sell Iraq long-range missiles.

But there is definitely a possibility that this was an accident with some pilot or a Tomahawk. Most likely though it was just an unaimed Iraqi missile, Silkworm or SCUD.
 
2003-03-28 07:10:50 PM
03-28-03 07:09:18 PM Stoffel
"Targetted" a mall?

Our "precision" bombs hit Iran.


No, they didn't.
 
2003-03-28 07:12:00 PM
DrToast, care to elaborate?
 
2003-03-28 07:12:01 PM
Too2ez, Avery1415: The purpose of launching such missiles is to create terror. It worked for Saddam in the Iran-Iraq war when Iraq was launching them on a regular basis at the Iranian capital. Add NBC capability for real teror.
 
2003-03-28 07:12:53 PM
Helicopters Strike Targets Around Karbala
Friday, Mar 28, 2003; 6:47 PM

FORWARD OPERATING BASE SHELL, Iraq, March 29

Jeez, they're even letting the oil companies get naming rights on the military bases. I just hope they're fair with it:
FORWARD OPERATING BASE CHEVRON
FORWARD OPERATING BASE EXXON/MOBIL
FORWARD OPERATION BASE ARCO, yadda yadda
 
2003-03-28 07:13:32 PM
Bbcrackmonkey
I may have misunderstood his post. Disregard.
 
2003-03-28 07:13:35 PM
Man oh man. Imagine what would happen if Saddam released a vaccine-resistant small-pox that was cooked up in some Soviet lab? That shiat would kill like a billion people.

Vaccine resistant? You can make a bacteria antibiotic resistant by exposing them to plasmids with genes for antibiotic resistance. It's easy to do. In fact, it's a technique used to make modifications to things like E. coli in the lab. I'd guess most biochem majors have done it, but only against really weak antibiotics that are pretty much only used for this kind of work.

To make a virus vaccine resistant, you would have to change it enough to so that none of the epitopes that the vaccinated population were making antibodies to were still there, which means you'd have to change a pretty good chunk of pretty much every protein in the virus and still have it work as a virus.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but if I were looking for a weaponizable viral disease, this isn't where I'd start.
 
2003-03-28 07:14:32 PM
yeah Milla is the hottest chick ever
 
2003-03-28 07:14:51 PM
H8red - what can I say? It came to me while bowling last night...
 
2003-03-28 07:16:01 PM
DrToast, well he said that our precision guided stuff hit Iran, and you said that didn't happen.

I had read that our stuff hit Iran, and then I also read some stuff saying that it wasn't true, and I was wondering if you had a source that could clarify something for me, because as of now I'm really not sure who's right on that one.
 
2003-03-28 07:16:03 PM
SmokeGrinder:

I understand the terror aspect, but that is not really the way Saddam has been playing the PR game on this one. He has been playing as the one being terrorized, not vice versa. All the missiles he launched so far were "targeted" (for lack of a better term) at areas closer to Iraq near US forces.

I personally think this was an errant US missile - so far. There was no air raid warning and no Patriot launches. The Patriot battery radar is looking into Iraq. They wouldn't launch if the missile came from the other direction - like the Persian Gulf. Time will tell.
 
2003-03-28 07:16:15 PM
Recockulous

FORWARD OPERATING BASE ELF loses out!
 
2003-03-28 07:16:29 PM
SoccerMom: Camel parking available with 8 year old camel jockeys moonlighting as valets.
 
2003-03-28 07:19:12 PM
Bbcrackmonkey
Well, the first release of the story said they were American missiles, but Iran has since retracted that and said they were Iraqi missles. However, I think since then there may have been stray U.S. missles to land in Iran, but they weren't near anything.
 
2003-03-28 07:19:30 PM
I told them that Baghdad was too far away. About time they listened to me.
 
2003-03-28 07:19:39 PM
RaoulDuke,

Would that be the "Dubya" sign?
 
2003-03-28 07:20:55 PM
Avery1415, well that sounds like a pretty difficult endeavor to make a virus vaccine resistant, but I wouldn't put it past the Soviets to be able to do such a thing. And seeing as how they are the people who have sold the most weapons to Iraq, it also wouldn't surprise me if Iraq had such a weapon.

Although, despite being kinda crazy, Hussein would probably realize that the virus would indiscriminately kill people all over the world. I've read news reports saying he is planning on fleeing to Syria if things get out of hand, so even if he loses he is still making plans to get away like the evil super-villain that he is.

But I am 100% sure that the Iraqis will use their chem/bio weapons when we try to take Baghdad. I wasn't sure about this until Tariq Aziz or some propaganda minister said that the coalition troops will likely use WMD because they are frustrated with their constant defeats on the battlefield.
 
2003-03-28 07:21:14 PM
DrToast - digging down deep to get to the bottom to stay on top. Thanks.
 
2003-03-28 07:23:13 PM
BBC say they are not sure - stuff blow up - dunno why.
 
2003-03-28 07:23:34 PM
I bet it ws a TLAM. I bet some OS watched it the whole way in. In fact the Radar tracks are recorded, not that you will ever see it.
 
2003-03-28 07:23:46 PM
Interesting. Kuwait keeps trying to say it's a SCUD, the US is saying it's not.

Anyone else feel like Kuwait is the scrawny kid in fourth grade who got beat up a lot and then made shiat up to get people in trouble? "Teacher, teacher! Johnny pinched me!"
 
2003-03-28 07:24:47 PM
Too2ez, Avery1415: The purpose of launching such missiles is to create terror. It worked for Saddam in the Iran-Iraq war when Iraq was launching them on a regular basis at the Iranian capital. Add NBC capability for real teror.

One last one then I'm going home.

There are two reasons to attack things in a war. 1) Destroy them. 2) Create sufficient fear (aka terror) in the enemy that his willingness to endure additional attacks overcomes his reluctance to admit defeat.

I mean isn't saying "create shock and awe" just a fancy way of saying terrorize without actually using the root word that we only use when talking about our enemies?
 
2003-03-28 07:25:41 PM
Anyone else feel like Kuwait is the scrawny kid in fourth grade who got beat up a lot and then made shiat up to get people in trouble? "Teacher, teacher! Johnny pinched me!"

Yes, I suppose they are. Although that seems to be common in many countries in the region.
 
2003-03-28 07:26:28 PM
Look at the big brain on Avery1415
 
Tor
2003-03-28 07:26:39 PM
I'd just like to weigh in and say that pulling our troops out of Iraq would be murder.
 
2003-03-28 07:26:56 PM
flim springfield
 
2003-03-28 07:27:05 PM
But I am 100% sure that the Iraqis will use their chem/bio weapons when we try to take Baghdad. I wasn't sure about this until Tariq Aziz or some propaganda minister said that the coalition troops will likely use WMD because they are frustrated with their constant defeats on the battlefield.

Yup! If it is possible to convince millions of people that 9/11 was perpetrated by Jews, then it should be no problem to convince these same people that the U.S. gassed Iraq in order to blame Iraq for weapons they are lying about Iraq possessing.

And no doubt, when a chemical attack occurs, there will be people on FARK claiming we did it to garner sympathy for our failing war effort. Sad.
 
2003-03-28 07:27:51 PM
Avery1415, well our shock & awe thing killed a whole 5 civilians. I know that Iraq's missiles haven't killed any civilians yet, but its not for lack of trying.
 
2003-03-28 07:28:01 PM
Was Great White Performing in Kuwait?
 
2003-03-28 07:29:35 PM
Oops, not a TLAM. They just showed pics on TV. Wrong writing and writing on the fin. In fact the fin is way too small for a TLAM.
 
2003-03-28 07:30:03 PM
MorticianBaby, and not only that, but the US gassed and infected its own soldiers just to get sympathy so we could legitimize our war for oil. Kinda like how we blew up our most expensive buildings in order to invade Afghanistan and steal their rocks.
 
2003-03-28 07:30:32 PM
03-28-03 07:27:05 PM MorticianBaby
...
And no doubt, when a chemical attack occurs, there will be people on FARK claiming we did it to garner sympathy for our failing war effort. Sad.


Here's what's really sad - you only have to hang on Fark once in a while to name the people you are referring to: Harmonia, Tadlette, etc.
 
2003-03-28 07:31:21 PM
Too2ez
Add Big Al to that list.
 
2003-03-28 07:31:49 PM
No blood for rocks! Lol.
 
2003-03-28 07:32:59 PM
Plus Big Al and Psycho Jay, whom I think renamed himself to Emperor Jay recently.
 
2003-03-28 07:33:03 PM
03-28-03 07:30:03 PM Bbcrackmonkey
MorticianBaby, and not only that, but the US gassed and infected its own soldiers just to get sympathy so we could legitimize our war for oil. Kinda like how we blew up our most expensive buildings in order to invade Afghanistan and steal their rocks.


I can believe that strategy, Bbcrackmonkey. Sh|t, we went all the way to the moon for some rocks. Afghanistan looks just like it and its a whole hell of a lot closer.
 
2003-03-28 07:33:44 PM
The Patriot kicked the missile off target, evidently -- it may have been headed for the palace. Instead it hit a mall, killing no one, and saving lives.

This will not satisfy some, but I'm happy. Maybe they were showing Bowling for Columbine at the theatre?
 
2003-03-28 07:34:15 PM
Actually the Zionists in the government blew up the WTC so we could invade Afghanistan so we could get the poppy fields so the CIA could distribute herion to blacks in the inner-cities.

/post-lobotomy
 
2003-03-28 07:34:38 PM
MorticianBaby...

Failing war effort? How do you figure, unless you're referring to the POV of the Farkers who'll be making said claims.

By all accounts, it's going really well. We made a couple of minor underestimations; mainly the control the Fedahyene has on the populace to make them fight and the fact that a good number of Iraqi Army regulars actually decided to fight, but that's all being accounted for (see the additional 100 some-odd thousand more US troops flooding into the country) and once the 4th ID rolls on the scene, it's over, period.

/ends rediculous run-on sentence
 
2003-03-28 07:35:16 PM
Too2ez, yeah man. I hear that even as we speak we are discussing putting the Afghani people to work in the rock mines that we are building over there. All that precious rock, ours! All ours!!
 
2003-03-28 07:36:26 PM
One great thing about totalfark is that I'm too busy reading a new headline every minute to get sucked into these threads.
 
2003-03-28 07:37:10 PM
Bbcrackmonkey:

It's all part of our master plan to replace all the rocks they blew up in Nevada with all of that nuclear testing.
 
2003-03-28 07:37:14 PM
About the whole US conspiracy thing... Jed Babbin on NRO suggests that Saddam may set up and film an atrocity by rounding up Iraqi civilians, dressing his troops in American gear, and slaughtering them while Iraqi TV films it.

This is plausible. This is why I don't believe anything I see or hear until both time and additional information is available. War is hell, baby. And truth is the first casualty of war.
 
2003-03-28 07:37:32 PM
Bbcrackmonkey...

"Kinda like how we blew up our most expensive buildings in order to invade Afghanistan and steal their rocks."

Best conspiracy theory in the history of ever! Love it!

LOL!

steal their rocks....

Still LOL!!!
 
2003-03-28 07:37:45 PM
Does anyone else think it's fun to say "fedayeen." I mean, I know they're cruel bastards and I hope they die, but they have a cool name.
 
2003-03-28 07:37:46 PM
H8tred

Yes, I refer to POV of "the Farktards." War is going plenty quick IMO. Should have put quotes on "failed." heheheh.
 
2003-03-28 07:37:53 PM
H8red, actually that was what the Iraqi propaganda minister said. He went on TV and said that Iraq would not use WMD... but the coalition probably would since they will be desperate after getting beaten up so badly by the invincible Iraqi army.
 
2003-03-28 07:38:52 PM
Car backfiring... nothing to see here.

Typical MSNBC over-blown hype.
 
2003-03-28 07:39:24 PM
Bbcrackmonkey....

Enough with the rocks jokes. My boss is going to get to wondering why I'm having so much fun!
 
2003-03-28 07:39:31 PM
how very typical. you really don't know what you're on about do you? stop and think. just once. please. and I'm talking to you Bbcrackmonkey & Too2ez. do some resaerch and stop using your deeply ingrained beliefs to colour your judgment.

it's the dust you're after. not rocks.
 
2003-03-28 07:39:43 PM
About the whole US conspiracy thing... Jed Babbin on NRO suggests that Saddam may set up and film an atrocity by rounding up Iraqi civilians, dressing his troops in American gear, and slaughtering them while Iraqi TV films it.

I'm actually surprised this hasn't happened yet.
 
2003-03-28 07:39:44 PM
Hell, we are using weapons of mass destruction. Anything larger than a penknife could be considered a WMD, depending upon how you look at it. Stupid term, especially considering the chemical weapons usually lumped into the term are usually less effective than more traditional methods.
 
2003-03-28 07:39:49 PM
Frazetta_chick:

I've heard similar conspiracy theories, but I don't think it will work. Just imagine the video - look at the Americans slaughtering Iragis. And the Americans are a bunch of swarthy guys with thick mustaches.
 
2003-03-28 07:40:08 PM
Frazetta, not to mention that details are often sketchy, it's human nature to make some level of assumption, and everyone is reporting based on their single perspective and desire to be the first to report.

Not that any of that is bad, it's just the way it is.
 
2003-03-28 07:41:53 PM
Americans are a bunch of swarthy guys with thick mustaches.

don't you remember Burt Reynolds in his heyday? or Tom Selleck?
 
2003-03-28 07:42:14 PM
03-28-03 07:39:31 PM TsarDony
how very typical. you really don't know what you're on about do you? stop and think. just once. please. and I'm talking to you Bbcrackmonkey & Too2ez. do some resaerch and stop using your deeply ingrained beliefs to colour your judgment.


See, Bbcrackmonkey, another European wanker falling for those nutty "dust theories". Will they never learn?
 
2003-03-28 07:42:15 PM
DrToast, yeah but they are called the Fedayeen Saddam. That's probably why everyone just refers to them as the Fedayeen, because Fedayeen Saddam sounds like someone's name and it just isn't as catchy. Certainly much cooler sounding than the "Republican Guard" which just reminds us of American political parties.

Iran has "Shahids" which also sounds cool, and also the ever cool Kurdish "Pershmaga" or something. I'm not exactly sure.
 
eps
2003-03-28 07:44:04 PM
ITV Article

Google news has now got the story on the front page with over a 100 artcles. could someone please read them all for me tell me if any of them actually know anything ?
 
2003-03-28 07:45:23 PM
don'y you realise that the american economy is based on cleaning products? your dependence on lemony fresh furniture polish will be the end of us.

I say "Stop enslaving the Afghani people to provide dust for American homes to increase the sales of cleaning products"

Although I don't know how I'll get the sign out of the door
 
2003-03-28 07:45:50 PM
Harryhausen : Go for the two year tour at NAS Oceana. Plenty of stuff to do in the area. The only problem is that VA. Beach Va. always seemed to consider the military as 2nd class citizens. (Ex-navy brat impression). Make some calls and check it out.
 
2003-03-28 07:46:10 PM
test

 
2003-03-28 07:46:11 PM
Mortician...

I figured that's where you were going, but had to ask. "Farktards", LOL again! That's a new one and befitting of some.

Bbcrackmonkey...

Actually, it doesn't surprise me that the Iraqi propaganda minister would say such a thing. It's pretty much par for the course. Desperate moves by a desperate regime.

Frazetta_chick...

"Saddam may set up and film an atrocity by rounding up Iraqi civilians, dressing his troops in American gear, and slaughtering them while Iraqi TV films it."

You think this is plausable? I'd be more inclined to say it's probable. Saddam reminds me a lot of Garth Brooks. He's a master at suckering in the weak and simple minded.
 
2003-03-28 07:46:25 PM
AerialP
Erisian Liberation Front?
 
2003-03-28 07:46:37 PM
it was a chinese surface to surface anti ship missle known as a "Silkworm". It is a derrivitive of an old soviet short range missle. The silkworm has a range of 95km.
 
2003-03-28 07:47:06 PM
Too2ez, well America could be doing it because we wanted all those burned out Soviet tanks from the 80s.

But www.whatreallyhappened..com is telling me that we did it so we could build a dust pipeline through Afghanistan, and then when it got back to the US we would melt the dust with heat and pressurize it and turn it into rock again.

Also, why hasnt' anyone brought up the fact that Americans are getting balder at an ever-increasing pace, and we are probably setting up people-farms in order to shave them and steal their hair to cover our shame.
 
2003-03-28 07:47:08 PM
I think American bombs should all be red, and Iraq bombs should be yellow. After the target is smitherined, there should be some remains and then we'll know who's is who's.

Or (better yet) just before the bomb is to hit its target, I tall pole will be shot directly into the ground for the bombing country's flag to be proudly displayed, right next to the rubble.
 
2003-03-28 07:47:37 PM
Holy Fark it worked! I just posted my first image at Fark. It's sick how happy that's made me. The pic posted is from CNN.com and shows the fire in Kuwait.
 
2003-03-28 07:49:18 PM
Maveno, well if we did that then Iraq would build red bombs and drop them on orphanages and soup kitchens and say we did it.
 
2003-03-28 07:49:53 PM
According the recently de-classified papers Iraq has the biggest plant in the world that makes the little ball bearings that are in nail polish jars. That my friends is the "real reason" behind this war.
 
2003-03-28 07:50:04 PM
hey guys, what are some other news sites to check daily?

ive only been checking drudgereport, i need some new sites to check.

thanks
 
2003-03-28 07:50:43 PM
Shower_in_my_socks, please do it here: FARK TEST BOARD
 
eps
2003-03-28 07:51:18 PM
According the recently de-classified papers Iraq has the biggest plant in the world that makes the little ball bearings that are in nail polish jars. That my friends is the "real reason" behind this war.

Aha, the "smoking gun".
 
2003-03-28 07:51:31 PM
03-28-03 07:47:06 PM Bbcrackmonkey
...
Also, why hasnt' anyone brought up the fact that Americans are getting balder at an ever-increasing pace, and we are probably setting up people-farms in order to shave them and steal their hair to cover our shame.


Hell, yes. After looking at my hairline, I could get with the people-shearing thing. Start the harvest!

How about organ farms, too? I've been thinking that I could use a new spleen and I've been trying to pickle my own liver for years.
 
2003-03-28 07:51:47 PM
Shower_in_my_socks - I can tell you why your not famous yet (regarding the hollywood film producer.)

Obviously you haven't produced a movie about Wong Fei Hong.

I'd show you a chart showing how all Hollywood farkholes get famous. It revolves around making a dOPeAzZzZ WongFeiHong movie and becoming uber wealthy, having rich parties with babes and eventually dieing from either heroin or one of the 3 fun stimulants.

/Hijacked that thread like it was a turkish airliner.
 
2003-03-28 07:53:04 PM
Proto501, it depends on what slant you want on your coverage. If you despise this war then New York Times, Reuters, Yellow Times, Newsmax and Al-Jazeera are the way to go. If you are very pro-war, then Right Wing News, Little Green Footballs, Free Republic, and Fox News are the way to go.

I suggest all of them, so you can actually get both sides and make an accurate judgement.
 
2003-03-28 07:53:20 PM
Bbcrackmonkey
I agree, Fedayeen Saddam doesn't sound nearly as cool. It kinda sounds like an accountant, actually.
 
2003-03-28 07:53:21 PM
03-28-03 07:49:53 PM Harryhausen
According the recently de-classified papers Iraq has the biggest plant in the world that makes the little ball bearings that are in nail polish jars. That my friends is the "real reason" behind this war.


LAMO!!! I knew women ruled the world!!
 
2003-03-28 07:53:21 PM
/Hijacked that thread like it was a turkish airliner.

bwa-ha-ha-ha
 
2003-03-28 07:53:38 PM
Does anyone else think it's fun to say "fedayeen."

My boyfriend said that's the name of the schock troops in Dune. He didn't make the connection until he heard it used in the context of the Iraqis. Bleh. George Lucas, Frank Herbert - good at getting references from foreign cultures and knitting them into sci-fi.
 
2003-03-28 07:53:50 PM
Shower_in_my_socks
LOOKS LIKE VEGAS HMMMMMM

OH AND CONGRATS I REMEMBER MY FIRST AS WELL
 
2003-03-28 07:53:53 PM
Err, Newsmax is pro-war, sorry. How the hell did I make that mistake?
 
2003-03-28 07:54:54 PM
lol Maveno I think thats a Milton Bradley game!
"B-4...HIT...You sunk my country"
 
2003-03-28 07:54:58 PM
Faethe, no the guys in Dune were Fremen, and the Imperial Shock Troops were the Sauderker.
 
2003-03-28 07:55:37 PM
Actually, Faethe I've been thinking lately about how lyrical and truly lovely sounding the names of these places in the mideast are. There must have been some beauty there at one point.
 
2003-03-28 07:55:48 PM
Bbcrackmonkey
"People farms" :)
Almost spewed coffee all over my laptop. people farms...
 
2003-03-28 07:56:17 PM
03-28-03 07:53:38 PM Faethe
...
My boyfriend said that's the name of the schock troops in Dune.


I think the shock troops in Dune were Sardarkhur or something like that. I definitely did not spell it correctly.
 
2003-03-28 07:57:26 PM
TGIFgrl, LOLZ!! You sunk my country! Oh man that's a zinger.

DrToast, come to think of it it does sound like an accountant. And the thing that sucks is that there's gonna be a bunch of kids in Iraq named "Saddam" who are gonna get made fun of a lot after this war.
 
2003-03-28 07:57:39 PM
Actually, the middle east was incredible...right up to about the crusades. It's pretty much gone downhill after we burned down their libraries, appropriated their numbering system, warfare techniques, etc.
 
2003-03-28 07:58:25 PM
The guys in Dune were "Feydakeen". Same Idea, different dialect. I think Herbert was working off of earlier translations.
/geek:)
 
2003-03-28 07:59:01 PM
Elvira, actually Afghanistan was a lush green paradise with bountiful food until Genghis Khan razed the entire country and destroyed its irrigation systems that had been in place for thousands of years.
 
2003-03-28 07:59:07 PM
Elvira - There must have been some beauty there at one point.

there still is. I have lived in Bahrain, Saudi, Kuwait and Iraq (blame Halliburton hehe) and some of the scenery is truly stunning.
 
2003-03-28 07:59:08 PM
bbcrack

I'll tell him - he's been going off about thge fedeyeen for days now...hee hee

Elvira

Yeah I agree - it sounds like an awesome place to go and visit - Baghdad and all these awesome cities. These are like the oldest cities in the world, Ur (Nineveh) is supposed to be just outside Baghdad. Plus it all just looks so cool on TV - all the minarets and the big heavy palm trees. They have good food too...
 
2003-03-28 07:59:40 PM
Bbcrackmonkey:


Ok. Every bombflag has a "swiper" on it. (like an ATM machine) For every country they have a special bar coded card that they have to swipe to detonate the bomb.


/trying to entrepreneur
 
2003-03-28 08:01:22 PM
The guys in Dune were "Feydakeen".

Hah! That is a little closer - kinda ironic that sandworms and the desert were where the (i am unable to say the word that means messiah in Dune) was from...hee
 
2003-03-28 08:01:42 PM
03-28-03 07:49:18 PM Bbcrackmonkey
Maveno, well if we did that then Iraq would build red bombs and drop them on orphanages and soup kitchens and say we did it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --
Yeah Maveno think about it!
 
2003-03-28 08:01:45 PM
Sidi, if you're going to blame anyone for destroying the Middle East's way of life, blame the mongols, because they killed way more Muslims and they conquered much more Muslim land than the Crusaders ever could have hoped to. Either that or blame the desert in which they live or blame their backwards tribal and religious culture for stopping acceptance of democracy.
 
2003-03-28 08:02:01 PM
Sidi, don't be ridiculous. Who is this "we" who burned libraries? Was the middle east being "incredible" when they invaded Europe, Asia, Africa, Indonesia, India, exporting their culture with brute force?
 
2003-03-28 08:02:21 PM
Fedayakin... Elite Fremen troops from Dune, they live to die for Paul Muad'dib.

/nürd.
 
2003-03-28 08:03:50 PM
Anybody catch the latest sci-fi channel "children of Dune"?
 
2003-03-28 08:03:59 PM
I guess if bombs are going to be going off, at least they are way over there
 
2003-03-28 08:04:31 PM
TGIFgrl:



LOL It does!

Well, I'm just trying to make some extra $$ on the side, and I figure the war is the hot ticket right now and I should jump on the opportunity to create SOMETHING!
 
2003-03-28 08:05:42 PM
Whoa...MSNBC is reporting a meeting was taking place at a buildling in Basra with 200 Fedayeen in attendence and two laser guided missles blowed them up!
 
eps
2003-03-28 08:06:11 PM

Hah! That is a little closer - kinda ironic that sandworms and the desert were where the (i am unable to say the word that means messiah in Dune) was from...hee


Kwisatz Haderich ?

/i'm such a geek
 
2003-03-28 08:06:30 PM
err...missiles
/anal
 
2003-03-28 08:07:30 PM
MorticianBaby, I think the library thing was a reference to the Library of Alexandria, which we most definitely did not burn down. There's a dispute as to who burned it down, but the two most likely culprits are the Romans after when conquered Egypt or Christian extremists in the 5th century who saw the library as a collective of pagan knowledge and therefor heretical (this was when most of Egypt was Christian, before Islam came about).

The Middle East was once the cultural and scientific capital of the world, but only because Europe was in the dark ages and Islam had inherited the knowledge and rich culture from the Greek, Persian and Roman empires and had not been sacked by barbarians (until the mongols). Course that was in the 14th century...
 
2003-03-28 08:07:33 PM
The Sardukar are the emperor's elite.

BTW, the fremen are the people of Rakis, but the closest to Usul, the strength of the base of the pillar, were his fedayakin.
 
2003-03-28 08:07:36 PM
fedayeen is going to come to mean "crap" in Iraqi like "mierde" in French was named after some big loser general.
 
2003-03-28 08:08:37 PM
Sidi, Bbcrackmonkey, TsarDony and Faethe

Well, here's to hoping that much of the country's majesty will still be in tact (unlike the giant Buddah's that got destroyed by the Taliban in Afghanistan) - that the people appreciate what we've done - that everything works out and and they have a great quality of life like the people of Qatar.... only with Democracy.
 
2003-03-28 08:08:46 PM
"Morticianbaby: exporting their culture with brute force"
And what are we doing?
 
2003-03-28 08:08:53 PM
Moorish Spain was one of the most liberal places in all of Europe in it's day. You were a hell of a lot better off not being of the dominant religion there than after the Muslims were kicked out.

And you're right, there are many, many reasons for the turn from a culture of science and reason to whatever the middle east is today, but the time of the Crusades certainly was right around the high point of their civilization, and things have gone down from there.
 
2003-03-28 08:09:12 PM
DrToast, sweet! We blew up those Fremen bastards like it was nothing! Soon Arrakis will be ours and we will steal its Spice.

No blood for Spice!
 
2003-03-28 08:09:14 PM
Kwisatch Haderach. (phonetic spelling)
Shi'a Muslims have a tradition that their last Caliph (a descendent of Mohammed) will return to them at the end of time and sit in judgement on them, next to jesus for the jews and christians. He's called the Mahdi, which was also a nutjob who inspired a rebellion in sudan while it was a British colony. fascinating bunch o'people. really.
 
2003-03-28 08:10:50 PM
The Kwizatz Haderach was the male Bene Gesserit, the one that sees the past and future, his curse but Ultimate Power to the Bene Gesserit.

BTW, Dune is great, a shame that now that all arabs are enemies reading about a jihad (Herbert used that word a lot in the books), reading it is considered subversion.

Long live the Tyrant Leto!
 
eps
2003-03-28 08:11:01 PM
Kwisatch Haderach. (phonetic spelling)
Shi'a Muslims have a tradition that their last Caliph (a descendent of Mohammed) will return to them at the end of time and sit in judgement on them, next to jesus for the jews and christians. He's called the Mahdi, which was also a nutjob who inspired a rebellion in sudan while it was a British colony. fascinating bunch o'people. really.


k, you are more of a geek than me.
 
2003-03-28 08:11:16 PM
Mystified Don't ya know the price of soup will go up if they bomb too many soup kitchens by mistake, cause the "swiper" on the bomb malfunctioned during the explosion!
 
2003-03-28 08:11:35 PM
Dune geeks unite!!!
 
2003-03-28 08:12:13 PM
Early reports say it was a Chinese silkworm missile.
 
2003-03-28 08:13:04 PM
With all the Dune references, you can play Spot the Geek ™
 
2003-03-28 08:13:49 PM
Eps
I am but a Minor Geek. Ninja_Pancakes is the Geek Messiah;)
 
2003-03-28 08:14:00 PM
Doccm9, we are invading them in order to force our evil and silly ideas of Democracy and human rights on them.

I'll bet we convert them all to Christianity too.

Sidi, the only thing the Crusaders conquered was Israel, and even then they only had a tenuous hold on that. The Mongol horde came while we were still actually holding lands there, and the Mamelukes actually had to ask our permission to travel through Crusader held territories in order to reach and defeat the Mongol army. Since the Crusaders felt that the Mongols were a much greater threat to Christianity and Europe than Islam, they obliged.

If you read some Muslim history, they always viewed the Crusaders as barbarians who were nothing more than a fly trying to sting them. They saw the mongols as an actual threat to their very existance, and the mongols might have destroyed Islam and Europe for that matter if it weren't for the untimely death of Genghis.
 
2003-03-28 08:14:45 PM
Desert power against the sardukar... :)

No Muad'dib of course since Saddam ain't the Kwisatz Haderach, but I like the analogy.

BTW, Frel you all.

/enüff nürdism.
 
2003-03-28 08:15:57 PM
I'm just a nerd, someone with Andrew Wiggin's name is an even bigger nerd. :)
 
2003-03-28 08:16:57 PM
TGIFgrl:


I don't like the colored bomb idea anymore, I'm going full force on the flagbomb.
 
2003-03-28 08:17:02 PM
Digmyfarmertan: Frel you! :)
 
2003-03-28 08:17:23 PM
The enemies gate is down ;)
 
2003-03-28 08:18:06 PM
::::extra $$ idea::::Get a paper route going and deliver da bad news!
 
eps
2003-03-28 08:18:21 PM
Does everyone agree with me that Lynch's Sardarkaur were much scarier than the stormtroopers from starwars ?.
 
2003-03-28 08:19:58 PM
Lynch's movie was visually awsome. Not till Lord of the Rings has a book/movie been so alive. The only think that sucked were the Ornithropers, the Dune 2 game's were cooler. :)
 
2003-03-28 08:21:00 PM
Lynch's yes. the new ones? feh...
/purist
 
2003-03-28 08:21:21 PM
Err.. "been so alive" == IM*very*HO. :)

Some fans hate it, but having Captain Picard as Gurney was next to perfection - the guy in the series was a little on the tubby side. :)
 
2003-03-28 08:21:42 PM
the Library of Alexandria

In a city founded by "the West," i.e. Greeks.

and Islam had inherited the knowledge and rich culture from the Greek, Persian and Roman empires

Inherit? You mean invade and stole. The so-called "dark ages" were so because the muslims had stolen all the knowledge and hoarded for themselves. And even still, they just didn't get it. They stifled the expansion of knowledge and focused instead on the perfection of knowledge. But, when the Europeans got their books back finally, it was a renassaince that quickly left the Islamic world in the dust, developmentally speaking.

/end ethnocentric rant

Moorish Spain was one of the most liberal places in all of Europe in it's day. You were a hell of a lot better off not being of the dominant religion there than after the Muslims were kicked out.

Yes. But being a pagan was zero tolerance in Islamic lands. Never think about that, do you? How many Hindus were slaughtered by Islam? Nothing in the crusades compares to the raw religious hate/killing that Islam directed to non-abrahamic faiths. Just a thought that messes up the "tolerance calculus," if you will.
 
2003-03-28 08:25:18 PM
MorticianBaby, plus the dhimmitude too. An extremely heavy tax on non-Muslims that forced most who lived under their rule to convert or become bankrupt. Plus infidels (non muslims) basically lived like 2nd class citizens in Muslim lands. Let's face it, tolerance was not widely practiced by many people until Democracy came along.
 
eps
2003-03-28 08:25:37 PM
Lynch's movie was visually awsome. Not till Lord of the Rings has a book/movie been so alive. The only think that sucked were the Ornithropers, the Dune 2 game's were cooler. :)

Thats pretty much my view of Lynch's movie as well, some of his deign choices were incredibly brave considering that he could have easliy lifted a lot of stuff from Star Wars and made a much more popular movie. However as visually stunning as it is, you can't ignore the fact that there is a lot of bad acting in the film, both lynch and harrison have treated Dune like shakespeare (especially harrison), so it comes across as being overly dramatic and unnatural. If only I could make my own version of Dune.

While the Dune geeks are out, is it worth asking what everyone thinks of the prequels or should I just leave that alone ?
 
2003-03-28 08:25:48 PM
All I know is the Orange Julius stand is farked.
 
2003-03-28 08:25:50 PM
(news coverage) And now back to "The Pretty Colorful War In Iraq" ...I dunno Maveno
 
2003-03-28 08:25:51 PM
That's true. And it's still more rare around the world than it should be.
 
2003-03-28 08:26:11 PM
Ninja_Pancakes
Stewart ws definately the better Haleck, especially in the late portions of the film.
 
2003-03-28 08:28:30 PM
Kwisatz Haderich ?


Mabye we should make Saddam drink whatever that stuff was (worm juice???) to see if he is genuine - if he's still alive :)

Ninja Pancakes

BTW, Dune is great, a shame that now that all arabs are enemies reading about a jihad (Herbert used that word a lot in the books), reading it is considered subversion.

They banned Dune??? Geez. You'd think they would embrace it because of all the references...

EPS

Now - anything is much scarier than the storm troopers from Star Wars...bleh.
 
2003-03-28 08:29:21 PM
Don't stop the Dune references, I feel like I stumbled into a group of real people who read real books. Not too many of those out there lately.

Anybody out there think the Aiel warriors from the Wheel of Time series are based on the Fremen of Dune? They are from a waterless desert, they're awesome fighters, they veil when they attack, et cetera.

Except they're all red-headed Irish types, that's a problem. But neato to think about.

/happy Frazetta_chick
 
2003-03-28 08:29:40 PM
Eps
Havent read em yet. Im stuck in Qatar:( But, if theyre anything like the "Tolkien Junior" books, Im not too sure. I love Tolkien, dont get me wrong, but leave some of the mans notebooks alone for petes sake!!
 
2003-03-28 08:29:46 PM
I don't go to Orange Julius stands anymore, cause 2 years ago, I was in line to order and some dude farted! That was it 4 me Flg8or
 
2003-03-28 08:30:29 PM
I looked it up, the Sardaukar are the emperor's elite, from the planet Salusa Secundus, the most hostile planet in the universe, next to Arrakis.

The fedyakin are the Fremen death commandos, the Muad'dib's personal body gards. They also made up the core of the fremen fighting machine.
 
2003-03-28 08:31:31 PM
Feydaukeen = Paul Muad'Dib's elite bodyguard,sworn to defend him to the death.
Sardaukar = Emperor Shaddam IV's shock troopers
Fremen = desert wanderers
The new movies suck nuts. Kyle Mc-whatever was a lot better as Paul than the new whiny loser,and how in God's name can anyone expect to top Sting(STING,people!) as Feyd-Rautha?
 
2003-03-28 08:32:25 PM
Ok, enough debate on this war. Wether you're for it or against it, your minds aren't going to change now. These debates are just going to get people even more pissed off as they try to understand why the hell someone thinks another way. So instead of biatching, lets enjoy this:







 
2003-03-28 08:32:37 PM
Frazetta_chick
while i havent read the wheel of time series either (mostly reading geo-politics right now), the "Desert Fighter" is a pretty standard... device (? trying to avoid saying cliche) Arabs historically have been pretty mean fighters, but too tribal to accomplish much, until Islam.
 
eps
2003-03-28 08:33:47 PM
Eps
Havent read em yet. Im stuck in Qatar:( But, if theyre anything like the "Tolkien Junior" books, Im not too sure. I love Tolkien, dont get me wrong, but leave some of the mans notebooks alone for petes sake!!


Some people can be very vitriolic about them, but while they obviously don't come up to the same standard has Frank Herbert's novels they are relatively enjoyable as seperate self contained stories (even if they are a bit throwaway). The Butlerian Jihad is interesting (mainly because it is set so far before FH's Dune it doesn't mess up the continuity).
 
2003-03-28 08:34:14 PM
Nobody banned it, but when I was telling an american friend of mine about how the 'fedayeen' sound like the 'fedyakin' it dawned on me that Dune is also about a bunch of sand-people that overthrow a foreign, well armed, power using their own knowledge of their land.
 
2003-03-28 08:34:22 PM
Kekko_Kamen
WE WERE TALKING HERE!!!!!
Hee hee, thanks anyway though. 'puters here have very agressive anti-boobies filters :(
 
2003-03-28 08:35:45 PM
Anyone ever read the "Rose of the Prophet" trilogy from Margeret Weiss and Tracy Hickman?

Lots of djinns and stuff. Phat.
 
2003-03-28 08:38:09 PM
Eps
you DO realize you just used "vitriolic" properly?;) Impressive, most impressive.
RE; the topic at hand- Dune is a very touchy universe to play in because of its religious nature. the entire thing is based around the idea of rebellion against the established religious order (Orange Catholic) and the recognition of a new Messianic figure. It also touches on the "Christ figure" analogy so beloved in western literature.
 
2003-03-28 08:38:22 PM
Damn, I forgot Sting!!! What was it with that triangle???

BTW, the series, the first one at least, I didn't see Children of Dune yet, at least has some tchec (or other east-european) boobies, the only other east european boobies I see are silicon based, don't get me wrong, I like them, they are on GODDAMN HOT pr0nstars... :)
 
2003-03-28 08:39:08 PM
If you want jinn (and are willing to try something other than sci fi) Naguib Mahfouz is a good read.
 
2003-03-28 08:39:50 PM
Inherit? You mean invade and stole. The so-called "dark ages" were so because the muslims had stolen all the knowledge and hoarded for themselves. And even still, they just didn't get it. They stifled the expansion of knowledge and focused instead on the perfection of knowledge. But, when the Europeans got their books back finally, it was a renassaince that quickly left the Islamic world in the dust, developmentally speaking.

AHEM - Muslims all aside - the Dark Ages (and this is a disputed term BTW) - of apprx. 500-900 AD (after the fall of the Roman Empire and the rise of the Holy Roman Empire in Constantinopel - sp sucks!) throughout Northern Europe, was a time of feudalism, lots of death from disease, and the general decentralization of towns, communities, etc. (To be incredibly vague...).

However, the issue you are addressing is "where did the knowlege go that was stored by the Roman Empire?". Two answers (and honestly - there is TONS of speculation as to why this was - this is just the most current theory I know of).

1) Knowlege, during the "dark ages" was primarily "held" within abbeys, monastaries, and stuff that was controlled by the church. If da King wanted his kid to read, he hired a monk. Reading was not required. (a notable exception to this is the carolignian empire ie- Charlemange - who was the education king/feaudal beaurocrat).

2) Since most "knowlege" was held by the church, it was controlled by the church (in the later stages - by our buddies the Franciscans, who later had a splinter group named the Dominicans - who gave us the Inquisition).

Thus - "worldly" knowlege, such as anatomy, science, anything closely resembling reality, was considered the domain of the "devils playground" - and ordinary people were not permitted to be exposed to this.

Hence, you do not see "realistic" figures of madonnas, portraits in stone (very very Roman BTW) until the beginning of the 14th century (which is after high gothic - when the French got cooking with a mini renaisance of sorts,,,).

/the end.
 
eps
2003-03-28 08:41:43 PM
Eps
you DO realize you just used "vitriolic" properly?;) Impressive, most impressive.


Why the surprise ?
 
Tor
2003-03-28 08:42:46 PM
You're not missing much. Robert Jordan is the George Lucas of the literary world, both are good design/idea guys, both couldn't direct/write their way out of a paper bag.

Oh yeah, to any dune nerds out there, was there ever and explanation as to why a tribe of desert men could crush a uber-elite fanatically loyal bodyguard force with a huge technlogical advantage?
 
2003-03-28 08:42:48 PM
Kudos on your inclusion of Mila Kunis in that post Kekko_Kamen. She's a cutey.
 
2003-03-28 08:44:14 PM
For those of you keeping score at home, that's 12 geeks currently going strong

(brought to you by the fine folks at Spot the Geek ™)
 
2003-03-28 08:44:31 PM
Faethe
Very good point. Lets not forget that the Renaissance came about BECAUSE people learned to read. Maybe if we can teach the Middle East to read....
/jus'thinkin....
 
2003-03-28 08:44:42 PM
When I read Dune I stopped being catholic. It opened my eyes to religion. I'm not against it or against anyone else's belief in any way but I feel that I didn't needed it anymore.

Dune wasn't as moving as some other books I've read but its political, religious, anti-technological, cloning and other themes turned into a VERY dense and pleasant series.
 
2003-03-28 08:45:05 PM
Anybody out there think the Aiel warriors from the Wheel of Time series are based on the Fremen of Dune? They are from a waterless desert, they're awesome fighters, they veil when they attack, et cetera.

Yeah Frazetta Chick - no doubt. I read thisall the way up until the last book, and I have now officially given up. Have you read the latest book? Is it any good? Do they actually DO anything in it?
 
2003-03-28 08:46:15 PM
You're only counting Dune geeks though. While I loved Dune, and thought some of the other books in the series were pretty good, I'm not a Dune Geek.

I could tell you all about The White Plague though.
 
eps
2003-03-28 08:47:42 PM
Oh yeah, to any dune nerds out there, was there ever and explanation as to why a tribe of desert men could crush a uber-elite fanatically loyal bodyguard force with a huge technlogical advantage?

My nred credentials are quite up to scratch so I may have this wrong but didn't they have access to the atreides's atomic weapons ?
 
2003-03-28 08:49:10 PM
Tor:

They knew the land, they were being opressed by the foreign power and, most importantly, they had HUGE MUTHERFARKING worms.

BTW, they kept a significant advantage since they could stop the flow of spice - they were out gunned but their enemies' alliances were very weak since nobody wanted the spice to stop.
 
2003-03-28 08:49:35 PM

You HAVE been on other threads here, right? Knuckle dragging seems to be the norm in these parts. Plus, i love that word.

Tor

Religious conviction and Wierding Modules. They (Fremen)actually had superior 'tech, and weren't inhibited by not having shields. In any battle, its really about the fighters, not the tech.
 
2003-03-28 08:51:07 PM
The family atomics were used to shatter the shield wall of Arakeen (sp?). Paul couldn't use it against anyone to not lose his claim in the Landsraad.

DAMN I'm a nerd. :)
 
2003-03-28 08:51:48 PM
oops, forgot to close tags. sorry all!!
 
2003-03-28 08:52:41 PM
Could Tel Aviv be next???

Worse things have happened...
 
2003-03-28 08:53:05 PM
Ender

Very good point. Lets not forget that the Renaissance came about BECAUSE people learned to read. Maybe if we can teach the Middle East to read....

Very TRUE - the specific reason the Rennaisance came about (OK - this is another current trendy *theory* - everything is a *theory* when dealing with MOST history) is that in Florence, specifically, power and cash shifted from feudal monarchies and the church, to elite merchant bankers (like da Medici), and thus, a "middle class" of sorts, with it's own armies, politicians (people in da vatican), and scholars became a fixed part of society. Reading was still something very limited, but as the merchant class grew, so did schools, educations, and eventually, (like 300 years later) the enlightenment...

so if you are going to go off history, if you give Iraq a free middle class, things will explode on thier own. And they will have it - they do have all this oil...
 
2003-03-28 08:53:31 PM
Sarduakar also weren;t used to losing, so when it happenned, they sorta went "Doh!!"
/ Realizes what he just typed, and looks at the clothes he's wearing. "Oh crap...."
 
2003-03-28 08:54:14 PM
The weirding modules were Lynch's thing. The weirding ways was a fighting technique taught by Jessica to the Fremen so that her life could be spared.
 
2003-03-28 08:54:18 PM
The Islamic conquering of the Roman empire was uncalled for and meant genocide for the Romans, and there is no doubt that this was a setback to the development of civilzation, not a boon.

If Islam had not conquered the Roman Empire, I'm convinced it would have been the Christian Romans who would have been seen as the fulcrum of science and knowledge and that their civilization would have advanced farther. But I guess might is right and a rigid slavelike society is "beautiful". Go figure.

/blah
 
2003-03-28 08:56:49 PM
so if you are going to go off history, if you give Iraq a free middle class, things will explode on thier own. And they will have it - they do have all this oil...


I totally agree. After all, immigrants to America from all sorts of repressive cultures are able to figure out democracy remarkable fast once they have access to the middle class.
 
2003-03-28 08:57:32 PM
Faethe
The Adam Smith theory of social progress? Enlightened Self Interest, spread of Capitalism, and the societally leveling effect of the "Invisible hand of the Market". Of course, thats assuming no entrenched interests, such as pre-existing class structure, which Florence Et al avoided by creating a new class. Can we apply this to 21st century Iraq, or the Greater ?Middle East? discuss;)
 
2003-03-28 08:58:14 PM
Ender: Ah, renaissance Florence... :)

The Medici family was afraid to lose power to the church so they funded "heathen" artists and thinkers - I believe Maquiavel was one of them.
 
2003-03-28 09:01:06 PM
Morticianbaby
Umm... Islam didnt exist until 600CE or so, so they couldnt have invaded the Roman Empire. It was the Goths, Visigiths, Gauls, etc who invaded Rome, from 200-400CE, when the Empire collapsed and the "Dark Ages' Began.
/History geek too;)
 
2003-03-28 09:03:26 PM
Hi, everyone.

I need your help. This isn't a Democratic or Republican issue. It isn't conservative or liberal. It's an issue that people of all political persuasions can band together in solidarity.

If each of you could submit as many boobies links as possible, perhaps one or two will get posted. The kitten population is, unfortunately, getting large and unmanagable. If we don't act soon, they'll take over the world and kill us all.

Thank you for your support.
 
2003-03-28 09:03:39 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if the explosion was an errant U.S. bomb or missile. Just a hunch. It came from the sea, they say. It wasn't picked up coming from Iraq. I saw on MSNBC footage supposed parts of the missile and the numbers and letters looked as if it could be one of ours. Either way it is no big deal. Iraq's dumb missiles are not militarily significant. No different than Nazi V2's, except the Kraut's had more of them and they were better aimed. If you can't target a specific building then who cares? They could launch 100 a night and it wouldn't affect the outcome of the war.
 
Tor
2003-03-28 09:04:01 PM
Ok wow, I need to re-read that book. About the only things I can remember can be summed up like this:

1) Fremen ride worms.

2) Spice is worm poo.

3) Shooting a sheild with a laser makes it explode.

4) Sarduakar: Fun to say, impossible to spell.

5) The fat guy was gay.

6) Still suits turn poo into water.

Keep in mind I was twelve at the time. Regardless, thanks for the heads-up.
 
2003-03-28 09:04:06 PM
Ender: The 'barbarian hordes' only took advantage of what Rome presented to them, an aging, corrupt power structure that was already fragmented since Constantine moved the imperial seat to Instambul ('s not Constantinople).

I still think the barbarians took to much credit. :)
 
2003-03-28 09:04:40 PM
Ninja_Pancakes
Machiavelli? yup, sorta. He was a minor noble, I believe, who realized a lot of truths about power. The Prince is a true classic. Began a lot of philosophical wheels turning; Hobbes especially, which lead to Locke, and then to the US. Cuts to the basic tension between religion and humanism that permeates American Society. discuss;)
 
2003-03-28 09:04:56 PM
I've posted this earlier but I feel it needs to be whipped out again...
Give it to 'em Bush! Hard! More MOABs with those freedom fries, please.



You all realise this is really just one huge porn flick. Just as long as the right pussies get farked.

Oh, and screw France. They too had a skewed oil deal with Iraq before the war. Heh, heh... not any more!
 
2003-03-28 09:05:52 PM
Tor: You seem to remember a lot of poo. :)
 
2003-03-28 09:06:22 PM
Faethe writes: if you give Iraq a free middle class, things will explode on thier own.

Up until 1990, Iraq had, proportionately, the largest middle class in the region (with the possible exception of Israel).
 
2003-03-28 09:06:23 PM
Ninja_pancakes
Damn prissy Barbarians, always hogging the spotlight. Grrrr...
 
2003-03-28 09:08:07 PM
Nero_design, that was actually a cool pic. Unfortunately, Photoisland sucks.
 
2003-03-28 09:08:09 PM
Ender and Moretician Baby

Oh man you guys are giving me aa run for my money with history!!!

The Adam Smith theory of social progress? Enlightened Self Interest, spread of Capitalism, and the societally leveling effect of the "Invisible hand of the Market". Of course, thats assuming no entrenched interests, such as pre-existing class structure, which Florence Et al avoided by creating a new class. Can we apply this to 21st century Iraq, or the Greater ?Middle East? discuss;)

That is an excellent point - as far as I know it has been centuries since Iraq has had anything resembling a middle class - in fact - I would say that most of the artificial "middle class" of the UAE - has given them more access to cultures outside their own, (especially in Bahrain and Dubai) than anything else...

so in essence Iraq would be "creating" a middle class from nothing - presumably lead by the few people in Iraq that do have the necessary tools (education, some basis of political popularity, etc.), so it may be very successful. There is currently no "leveling" effect, because everything is held by the Baath party, whos measure of leveling is based on nothing more than loyalty, as opposed to value/potential.


Once the greater middle east, which is competitive, gets over (and I honestly do not know if this is possible) hegemonies ruled by religious zealots, and they are exposed to a democratic society that has free trade, and TOURISM from western countries, all the ducks could concievably fall into a row.

But - they have an artificial economy at the moment, with ONE key export (oil), so who knows how long it would last...

as for the Muslims destroying the Holy Roman Empire (Suliman the Magnificent?), they blew it because they became too isolationist, after the advent of fundementalism. They shut all of them out, and thus, they became isolated.

Universities would have helped staunch that I think, but the Byzantine empire was rather proud of itself...
 
2003-03-28 09:08:59 PM
Ender, I think you hit on something.

I think the great fear in the middle east is the fear of what will occur if such a "new class" can be created. This new class could be even pro-America if Operation: Iraqi Freedom is a success. Imagine a group of unburdened by Islam or Saddam progressive secularists. And what if such a new society is able to work proactively with American business interests resulting in a prosperous economy. This new generation, new class, could work with the other arab countries to create a modern society.

So, of course, this is a threat to the powers that be over there. And it is a threat to the average desperately poor person who wants a better life but resents that the "cure" to their ills is a system developed by another, more successful, civilization.

But a progresive pro-American Arab movement, similar to what we see in the former Eastern European countries that love us because of Reagan, is exactly what we need in the middle east.
 
2003-03-28 09:09:58 PM
Here's a cartoon to check out.
 
2003-03-28 09:10:03 PM
Jbrooks544:



:)
 
2003-03-28 09:10:11 PM
Eraser8
True. A middle class can only assume power if it is under by a Democratic or Representative System of government. The Gov of Iraq is more or less socialist, which meant the big money makers (oil and industry) are mostly state owned. therefore while there are a large number of shop keepers in Iraq, there are no oil barons. and we all know that they run the country here, right?;)
/sarcasm, honest:)
 
2003-03-28 09:12:20 PM
Wow Frog, no mention of college students.

At least they got the aging Baby Boomers and young Anarchists
 
2003-03-28 09:14:05 PM
Nope I am wrong - the Holy Roman Empire was taken down by Turks who were not Muslims - I thought the timeline was funny - Islam didn't come around for about another 75 years....

Fall of the Holy Roman Empire
 
2003-03-28 09:14:34 PM
Ok, here comes the ringer;)
Christianity is the only Mono-theistic religion capable of supporting the notion of a progressive, secular government seperate from a theocracy BECAUSE it was designed to be preached to the poor, meek, etc, not those in power, per se. Judaism and Islam both assume the dominance in society of thier religion, as have certain periods of European/Christian history. Thoughts?
 
2003-03-28 09:16:14 PM
Ninja_Pancakes

HUH?

War is Peace?

Hey man, I was just puttin' 2 an' 2 together and it came out 5 man...

I'm pro war, pro death and a patriot. Your farkin' poster looks like a nazi prop...
 
2003-03-28 09:16:30 PM
Islam didnt exist until 600CE or so, so they couldnt have invaded the Roman Empire

The Caliph of Islam was Holy Roman Emperor. This would be the same as if 200 years from now, some Imam rules America and calls himself the American president. History books might then affix a date for the end of the "American" empire that would precede this event. Doesn't mean that people of the time weren't still Romans or Americans, in the case of this hypothetical future-past.

What I mean is that people did not say, at the time, "we are now subjects of the Holy Roman Empire and the Romans are all dead now."

And for all we know, Bush will be known in history books as the first Holy American Emperor whose empire was later conquered by Osama IV.
 
2003-03-28 09:18:51 PM
the Holy Roman Empire was taken down by Turks who were not Muslims

And yet these Turks built the Dome of the Rock, and Al'Aska Mosque and virtually every important muslim building and it was turks who created the society known as the Empire of Islam.
 
2003-03-28 09:19:14 PM
Nope - wait again - I was right (geez all this is soo complicated...)

The City was now completely taken over by the Turks. Mehmed renamed the city Istanbul. To further glorify the city he built mosques, palaces, monuments and a system of aqueducts. The city was now officially claimed for Islam.

Same link as before...
 
2003-03-28 09:20:10 PM
MorticianBaby
Oh, you meant the HOLY Roman Empire. Didn't catch that part. Was looking at wrong flag...
/ No flag, No country!! You can't have one!!;)
 
2003-03-28 09:21:14 PM
 
2003-03-28 09:22:12 PM
So the US as a country does not represent christianity.

But we are sending our soldiers into a muslim nation carrying camoflauged bibles.
 
2003-03-28 09:24:07 PM
The Holy Roman Empire WAS the Roman Empire. What had changed? The official religion? But when Turks/Islamic world conquered they changed the region forever and it is their fault that there are no Romans left.
 
2003-03-28 09:24:14 PM
MorticianBaby
Turks, Shmurks. Thats was alot later, post-crusades. And when was the Caliph made HRE (Holy Roman Empire, for those keeping track)? They never took over Germany/France, which WAS the HRE. The turks got as far as Vienna, and the Arabs/Moors got Spain and a little into France, but the title was only ever held by Europeans, unless you have info i dont?
 
2003-03-28 09:27:27 PM
Ender

Ok, here comes the ringer;)
Christianity is the only Mono-theistic religion capable of supporting the notion of a progressive, secular government seperate from a theocracy BECAUSE it was designed to be preached to the poor, meek, etc, not those in power, per se. Judaism and Islam both assume the dominance in society of thier religion, as have certain periods of European/Christian history. Thoughts?


This is true - and one of the reasons why it was adopted favorably by the Romans (OK not so favorably at first, because Christianity also includes an inherent clause about rejecting all forms of worldly rule that go against it's principles) is that Christianity is Cheap, Inclusive, and requires no sacrifices, or ridgid routines, unlike mystery cults, etc.

Islam, Judaism, are both Semetic religions, because they do involve a ridgid set of requirements that must be adhered to (fasting, food prohibitions) and , they are also exlusionary/isolationist in their most extreme forms. And these people in MOST of the Middle East are Fundies of one form or another.

So in that respect your argument that Christianity wins because it requires no sacrifice, prohibitions (in general - Catholics are quasi semitic in some respects) works...

BUT I would caution also, that the problem is extreme fundementalism, people gone apeshiat, and while organized fundemental Christian regimes are practically non-existant - IT COULD STILL HAPPEN...
 
2003-03-28 09:29:25 PM
Xtremehkr
Wow Frog, no mention of college students.

Gave em a quick frame on page three, but that was all.
 
2003-03-28 09:29:35 PM
MorticianBaby writes: And yet these Turks built the Dome of the Rock, and Al'Aska Mosque and virtually every important muslim building

The Turks also built the Hagia Sophia, one of the greatest Christian churches ever built. Of course, now that the Muslims dominate Turkey, the church was converted into a mosque.

 
2003-03-28 09:30:04 PM
Xtremehkr
Howdy! been a while. On to your question:
"So the US as a country does not represent christianity.

But we are sending our soldiers into a muslim nation carrying camoflauged bibles."

The US has no OFFICIAL religion, unlike Germany or France, or most other countries in the world, but the majority religion has been chrisitianity since all the natives got bumped off. I forget the exact proportion, it is still the "Claimed" religion ( On dogtags)by 90% or so of all recruits. Since the Military is suppossed to take care of all your needs while you are away doing nasty things for your country, we provide these soldiers with materials appropriate to thier religious needs. There are camo Korans and torahs too, they just dont move as many units.
 
2003-03-28 09:31:43 PM
MorticianBaby writes: The Holy Roman Empire WAS the Roman Empire.

Are you being serious? I've come into the game too late to know whether you're being sarcastic or not.

In any case, the HRE wasn't the same as the Roman Empire.
 
2003-03-28 09:31:53 PM
How do i get the cool Italics on my responses? anyone?
 
2003-03-28 09:34:07 PM
true true.

Just seems inflammatory given the current political climate, Bush paraphrasing the bible, and introducing a national prayer day.
 
2003-03-28 09:34:28 PM
Eraser8

From what I remember, when Constantinople fell, one Christian Church was allowed to survive (I was told this is a custom in SOME Muslim Regimes) and hence, this became Hagga Sofia.

I could be worng, But I am relatively sure this is the case. The reason why I am sure, is that the church (the one that was spared) used to be a temple of Zeus, where a huge statue of Zeus (made by Phineas - OK it started with a P) resided (it was one of the seven wonders). When it was dismantled (the Zeus statue), the mosaics remained, and still do to this day. So people who are looking at the Christian God inside the temple - are actually looking at Pagan Zeus (this happened a lot in Ireland too...).
 
Tor
2003-03-28 09:34:50 PM
Speaking of which, right now the egyptians have felled the papacy, crushed the Turks, the Bzyantine empire and the Golden Horde, and are now threatening the Holy Roman Empire's holdings in Germany and France. The Empire's military might is unmatched, but they are also engaged in war with several smaller factions (like the polish). It looks like my Almohads are going to have to pull my longtime ally's bacon out of the fire, but unfortunantly all my 6 star generals are in Britan putting down the French rebellion. It looks like the next few years are going to be very interesting to say the least...

(If you get the reference, I'll owe you a coke)
 
2003-03-28 09:35:07 PM
03-28-03 09:21:14 PM Byteblock
I can't believe how psycho ProtestWarrior.com is...


It's a gathering spot for Amerikkkan cannon-fodder youth with anger management problems.
 
2003-03-28 09:35:33 PM
Is there a point in your mind where Bush has brought too much of his faith into his politics.

Faith based welfare.
 
2003-03-28 09:36:09 PM
Morticianbaby
Sorry, gotta go with Eraser8 on this one. The Roman Empire and the HRE were TOTALLY different organizations. They are seperated by several hundred years of mostly anarchy as Europe rearranged itself under regional Kings, one of whom (Charlemagne, I think) was then crowned HREmporer by a Pope. forget which Pope though.
 
2003-03-28 09:36:13 PM
I would like to take the time to thank you guys. After all the flamewars going on this past week it is refreshing to read an intelligent discussion here on Fark. I was starting to lose hope.
 
2003-03-28 09:37:38 PM
Ender_rpm

if ya write: look at <i>this</i>.

the "this" will be in italics. Be sure the little "html enabled" checkbox is checked.
 
2003-03-28 09:37:47 PM
Okay, let me get this straight and clear up my confusion as well.

Uthman, 3rd Caliph of Islam, was the guy, correct me if I'm wrong, but in conquering the Byzantine Empire became Caeser of Rome and Pharoah of Egypt and everything else. He had acquired every possible title for power ever developed by the ancient world.

The Holy Roman Empire started in 800 AD with Charlemagne, but the Roman empire was known as Rome until the Byzantines and then the Ottomans.

So I was wrong, but what I meant was the Christian Roman Empire that still existed, albeit that later history books arbitrarily define it as ending with the Byzantine conquest. But at the time that Islam conquered this Empire it was certainly the case that people considered the Caliph to be the Emperor of the Romans.

Then, the HRE arose as the European challenge to the muslim hijacking of western history, and yada yada yada.
 
2003-03-28 09:37:56 PM
03-28-03 09:03:26 PM Eraser8
Hi, everyone.

I need your help. This isn't a Democratic or Republican issue. It isn't conservative or liberal. It's an issue that people of all political persuasions can band together in solidarity.

If each of you could submit as many boobies links as possible, perhaps one or two will get posted. The kitten population is, unfortunately, getting large and unmanagable. If we don't act soon, they'll take over the world and kill us all.

Thank you for your support.




Had to be said again.
 
2003-03-28 09:38:49 PM
Eraser8

No - he is right but it is confusing. At one point, Rome had two emperors at the same time (and the oversimplification of this statement is astounding...). One went on to Constantinople, one stayed in Rome. Eventually, as the Magayar/Vandal invasions started to get stupid, the seat of power was moved from Italy to Constantinople. I think the original reason for the split in the empire was it was easier to defend on two fronts...but essentially, the Holy Roman Empire (Under Justinian) WAS the Roman Empire...
 
2003-03-28 09:39:25 PM
Xtremehkr
Its definately inflamatory, but its what he knows. I was raised pretty fundie, and its just what you do. Its his demographic.

Tor
Step away from Civilizations dude, its going to your head;)
 
2003-03-28 09:40:05 PM
Someone turn on FoxNews and tell me if I am crazy...is that the Airborne Laser 747 they are mislabeling as B-52s?
 
2003-03-28 09:40:20 PM
Harryhausen
That's cos someone forgot to mention what goose-stepping, jingoistic pigs republicans are.

oops...
 
2003-03-28 09:42:36 PM
That makes it ok?

what ever happened to Uniter not Divider.
 
2003-03-28 09:43:29 PM
Re: HRE vs RE vs Turks vs Byzantines....

They're DEAD. Lets go back to reforming the Middle East as it exists now. Anyone?;) how do we encourage the growth of capitalism in Iraq if most of the capitol will come from Oil revenue?
 
2003-03-28 09:43:57 PM
The Holy Roman Empire started in 800 AD with Charlemagne, but the Roman empire was known as Rome until the Byzantines and then the Ottomans.

You are exactly correct - that's the part that screws me up every time...
 
2003-03-28 09:45:22 PM
same as what you do with other earned income, invest it.
 
2003-03-28 09:45:49 PM
I thik after we suck all the oil out of Iraq we should irrigate the desert and grow tobacco.
 
2003-03-28 09:48:11 PM
Faethe writes: when Constantinople fell, one Christian Church was allowed to survive

I don't know whether the other churches in Constantinople were destroyed. But, the Hagia Sophia wasn't left as a Christian church. It was converted by the invaders.

the church (the one that was spared) used to be a temple of Zeus

My understanding is that the church sits was on the ruins of an acient pagan temple; but, the new church was specifically built to be a church; it never had any other purpose (until the Muslims took the city). But, it is true that some materials from pagan temples were used in the reconstruction of the church when Emperor Justinian decided to rebuild after the rebellion of Monophysites.
 
2003-03-28 09:48:29 PM
cool, it worked!!

Not saying that makes it ok. But its what the "common folk" cling to for comfort in times of sorrow and trouble. It generally unites Americans, while puzzling Europeans and pissing off everybody else. What we havent come to terms with yet is the free flow of information in the global age. what you say at a election rally for your fav candidate in Peoria is now broadcast as government policy to the ends of the Earth. youre gonna piss someone off, but you try to make your constituency happy.
 
2003-03-28 09:50:03 PM
They're DEAD. Lets go back to reforming the Middle East as it exists now. Anyone?;) how do we encourage the growth of capitalism in Iraq if most of the capitol will come from Oil revenue?

Does anyone know exactly how Russia shifted from communism to a free market economy? This is not an easy thing man. I guess the revenue from the oil might have to be pooled for a while, and distributed in the form of welfare, until people started to stabilize. In the 1970s, when the oil boom first hit Saudi - that's what they did - everyone got a check (and went full on apeshiat with cars, etc.) while the Emir, Caleeph, Shiek or whoever, acted as finance manager and principle land owner...

I guess someone needs to get their arse in to the WTO like yesterday, and sort out exactly what exports they do have, and also act to stabilize their currency, teach them how to waste money in the stock market, and most importantly, drive Buicks and eat Ben and Jerry's.

Then the leveling effect will kick in, as some rise to own factories/export concerns, and other work within them, with the oil money to float all of them into some sort of stability...
 
2003-03-28 09:50:43 PM
too bad I am leaving for San Fran tonight, great evening for history.
 
2003-03-28 09:53:38 PM
Xtremehkr, be sure to wear some flowers in your hair.

/hoping the reference isn't too obscure
 
2003-03-28 09:54:12 PM
Nero_design- Absolutely hilarious pic. Had I been drinking, my monitor would be filthy.
 
2003-03-28 09:55:03 PM
re: oil revenues-
yes, you reinvest the money, but it is a State OWNED industry. Other than wages paid, the money acts like tax revenue and goes to defense and social spending (which they need, dont get me wrong) but if you do this, the capital never makes it into the hands of the "average' iraqi, therby stunting the grwth of a true middle class. Saudi, and several other gulf nations, and alaska, pay thier citizens a certain portion of the oil revenue, trading social mobility for social stability. Capitalism is inherently hard on societies because of its "creative destruction" of poor performers. so how do we encourage a risk-averse society to experiment with free enterprise, and not end up with another Russia?
 
2003-03-28 09:55:04 PM
Maybe if we kill enough of their civilians -- accidentally or not -- they'll really welcome us with open arms. I mean, hell, they're just Iraqis. We're Americans! Why do we or should we care?
 
2003-03-28 09:55:23 PM
Eraser

Yeah you are probably right - I am not sure which Church I am referring to - is tucked into a school book somewhere...I got this in a google search

Hagia Sofia, the Church of Divine Wisdom, was originally constructed by the first Christian Roman Emperor Constantine in 347 A.D. The church was destroyed in a rebellion in 532 and rebuilt by the Emperor Justinian on an even more magnificent scale in 537. The greatest church in Christendom was converted into a mosque after Mehmet II took the city and supporting buttresses were soon added, notably by the famous Turkish architect Sinan, in 1571. Upon Ataturk's orders, Hagia Sofia was converted into a museum in 1935.
 
2003-03-28 09:55:47 PM
different reasons this trip, but yea I am going to be doing some of that as well tho
 
2003-03-28 09:56:47 PM
re: they're dead!

Yes, but Osama and them actually dream about such things. This history motivates their sense of racial superiority and thus furthers their sense of humiliation.

That is why I like to, as counter-terrorism, profess the view that the Islamic empire was always a corrupt and racist culture.

Too many people in the West idealize the Islamic Empire and so lend credence to the terrorist's assertions of religio-racial superiority. This is the Western tendency toward primitivism, whereby great romance is made of the mysterious and collectivist cultures.

This notion must be rebuked because the truth is that Islam has been one bloody invasion after another. And this whole white-guilt about the Crusades and the horrors of European civilization are completely backward when it was the muslims who initiated cultural fascism on the region for centuries. The beauty of this culture of Islam that Westerners are so fond of gushing over was based on death, slavery, and segregation. And that "awesome" sense of power associated with Ottoman rule was actually mortal and utter FEAR!
 
2003-03-28 09:57:20 PM
Isn't Iraq where the "Hanging Gardens of Seramis" once stood? It was associated with Babylon, I thought. Was one of the Seven Wonders of the ancient world.

I wonder what it looked like, back in the day.
 
Tor
2003-03-28 09:58:00 PM
Ender_rpm


Close, but no cigar, the masterpeice of alternate history I am referring to is Medieval: Total War. And not to worry, a powerful Turkish uprising has overwhelmed several Egyptian territories near palestine, forcing the Egyptians to pull back their largest armies. My six-star generals are making quick work of the garrisons in the italian peninsula, and soon that whole area should be under the control of the pope once again (the puppet pope being installed and controlled by ME.)

Sorry, I just love this game. I'll be sure to continue updating my progress, since I'm sure each and every one of you is waitng with baited breath for the outcome to this conflict. ;)
 
2003-03-28 09:58:39 PM
As an atheist I have gone to church and experianced what it has to offer, just to do it.

somethings should be experianced just for that reason.

****

Also referred to as State Owned Enterprises.
 
2003-03-28 09:58:44 PM
Faethe
but would the WTO help or make it worse? the WTO is VERY risk averse, because risk is bad for business. While the socialist idea is great, the results have often as not led to stagnation rather than progress. Smiths theories only work when there is no entrenched interest, when capital is already level. what do we do when the inequity is systemic?
 
2003-03-28 10:01:16 PM
Kuwait is now saying that the missile was a Chinese made silkworm and was fired by Iraq.
 
2003-03-28 10:03:28 PM
Iraq is going to be our Afghanistan.
 
2003-03-28 10:05:08 PM
MorticianBaby
I agree, but we are socialized to accept that western culture is bad, and anything else MUST be superior. at least thats what i usually get yelled at for pointing out;)

the Caliphate was a very repressive (to us ) place, but less so to those currently living under repressive governments and pining for a new deal, so to speak. They see a muslim in power, like the US fundies see George Washington, a beacon of thier style of religion in power, even though its NOT TRUE. Look further up and see the comments we made about literacy. They CANT READ!!! literacy rates in the Islamic world are really pathetic by western standards, because they see the social turmoil the west has gone through after literacy becomes wide spread. i think i went off topic, but discuss anyway;)
 
2003-03-28 10:05:50 PM
Capitalism is inherently hard on societies because of its "creative destruction" of poor performers. so how do we encourage a risk-averse society to experiment with free enterprise, and not end up with another Russia?

The only other solution I can think of that would also be copecitic with thier culture, is that in the beginning, before Churchill and pals divided up the middle east into nice little areas, differing "tribes" of nomads held different districts of land. I think this is still the case in Afghanistan, which never had shiat, so this is not so problematic.

But this was before the discovery of oil and the advent of the Beverly Hillbillies.

One could stress that they need to divide themselves back into these tribes (on paper), and divide the land thus. But, this would inevitiably screw everyone else. Social welfare will stunt the growth of a middle class, for a while for sure. But this is essentially a group of people that until now, or well before Saddam, was not overly concerned with capitalism/self sustainability outside of becoming part or participating in the regime d'jour.

If you give them social welfare though, you will eneviatbly get a welfare class, like they have in Saudi. So I would say, reinvest 90% of it in infrastructure, and give them sustanence loans/welfare, and from that 90%, give them bussiness loans, education grants, scholarships, etc.

And make someone own the bloody ultility concerns so they can have free-market competition...
 
2003-03-28 10:06:29 PM
The Patriot kicked the missile off target, evidently -- it may have been headed for the palace. Instead it hit a mall, killing no one, and saving lives.

Good to see there hasn't been any posting of erroneous bullcrap as there has been in the past threads.
 
2003-03-28 10:06:57 PM
Ender_rpm asks: would the WTO help or make it worse? the WTO is VERY risk averse...

Are you thinking of the IMF and World Bank?

what do we do when the inequity is systemic?

According to Smith, if there are large scale inequalities, the system isn't working. He also was a huge champion of a progressive tax structure. Kind of interesting when you think about it. He's hailed by fiscal conservatives as the father of capitalism; but, if he were alive today, he'd probably be in the left wing of the Democratic party (if he were American).

Of course, none of that really answers your question.
 
2003-03-28 10:07:09 PM
03-28-03 10:03:28 PM Xtremehkr
Iraq is going to be our Afghanistan.

huh? soviets/afghanistan as vietnam/US?
 
2003-03-28 10:07:42 PM
Western culture developed into Western culture.

Can we just make a western culture in a country that is in the Middle East?
 
2003-03-28 10:08:45 PM
 
2003-03-28 10:10:22 PM
More like persistant Guerilla Warfare, leading to economic attrition that will eventually drain enough of our resources, forcing us out.

Read about what Bush wants to equip his $40 million Embassy and Ambassadors with. He knows this is coming.
 
2003-03-28 10:13:22 PM
Mr_entropy, first thing I thought of when I saw your pic:



Doesn't seem quite as funny now.
 
2003-03-28 10:14:00 PM
A shopping mall? Somone should teach those Iraquies the difference between Old Navy and the US Navy, I've heard that the mall was getting a GAP. I can hardly wait for the "Iraquies Gone Wild" video... Snoop says: "It's the hizzle fuhschizzle"
 
2003-03-28 10:15:17 PM
Faethe and Eraser8
-WTO/IMF/World Bank equally really.
-I agree on the progressive tax system. those who benefit the most from a political system need to be the ones who support it the most.
-RE; the tribes idea: you try to tell the Kurds that the oil fields in the north of Iraq beling to the Turkmen, who are really left overs from the Ottoman Empire. the problem with that idea is that we (the west) need SOME stability in the region for our own societies to function. oil, isreal, and WMD (Israeli, syrian, iranian, libyan, and egyptian, for those keeping count, besides iraq) mean that its in our interests to keep it as quiet as possible.
-Obviously the system isn't working anywhere really, according to Smith. hence we have Marx. right critique, wrong solution. anybody want to have a conference and come up with "post-capitalism"?
 
2003-03-28 10:16:04 PM
but would the WTO help or make it worse? the WTO is VERY risk averse, because risk is bad for business. While the socialist idea is great, the results have often as not led to stagnation rather than progress. Smiths theories only work when there is no entrenched interest, when capital is already level. what do we do when the inequity is systemic

The reason why I said shuffle them immediatley into the WTO, is that the WTO will have immediate pity on them, and grant them trade concessions, while everyone licks thier collective lips and manuevers themselves into a positive bargaining posture for that oil. They are going to need more refineries, they are also going to need desalinization plants, as they start to grow, as well as millions of other things. They can tow the Saudi line and do what the Shiek says is best, or the Iman, Mullah, whoever, or they can stick thier collective arse in the wind and bargain on the world market.

The thing Smith does not account for, is artificial economies that are built upon ONE viable source of profit. There is just not as large a diversity of exports in Iraq - one could argue that ten years from now we can look forward to them being a manufacturing concern, or happpier still, a brain pool as education slips back in. Straight up. This is from the CIA factbook on the Iraqi economy

Iraq's economy is dominated by the oil sector, which has traditionally provided about 95% of foreign exchange earnings. In the 1980s financial problems caused by massive expenditures in the eight-year war with Iran and damage to oil export facilities by Iran led the government to implement austerity measures, borrow heavily, and later reschedule foreign debt payments; Iraq suffered economic losses from the war of at least $100 billion. After hostilities ended in 1988, oil exports gradually increased with the construction of new pipelines and restoration of damaged facilities. Iraq's seizure of Kuwait in August 1990, subsequent international economic sanctions, and damage from military action by an international coalition beginning in January 1991 drastically reduced economic activity. Although government policies supporting large military and internal security forces and allocating resources to key supporters of the regime have hurt the economy, implementation of the UN's oil-for-food program in December 1996 has helped improve conditions for the average Iraqi citizen. For the first six, six-month phases of the program, Iraq was allowed to export limited amounts of oil in exchange for food, medicine, and some infrastructure spare parts. In December 1999 the UN Security Council authorized Iraq to export under the program as much oil as required to meet humanitarian needs. Oil exports are now more than three-quarters prewar level. However, 28% of Iraq's export revenues under the program are deducted to meet UN Compensation Fund and UN administrative expenses. The drop in GDP in 2001 was largely the result of the global economic slowdown and lower oil prices. Per capita food imports have increased significantly, while medical supplies and health care services are steadily improving. Per capita output and living standards are still well below the prewar level, but any estimates have a wide range of error.
 
2003-03-28 10:20:14 PM
Xtremehkr
right, like Vietnam and Afghanistan. but i dont see it in Iraq. the Guerillas we're fighting now are driven by thier desire to keep the perks thier accustomed to under this regime, not for ideology per se. thats why killing mr. mustache was worth f'in up the rest of the plan. the trouble will come in with Iran. they are ideologically driven, like the Taliban/AQ/Michigan Militia/KKK. how do you deprogram a society WITHOUT laying it waste first?
 
2003-03-28 10:26:32 PM
The Administration bet heavily on the fact that Saddam's regime would crumble quickly.

Hasn't happened, looks more like Saddam planned for this.

The Refugee Camps are not being filled as it was thought they would.

Gulf War One; 80,000 Iraqi POWs in 3 days.

GF Two; 4500 Iraqi POWs in over a week.

That and every city that we claim has been "secured" (ie Basra) is under attack from forces that come from out of the desert.
 
2003-03-28 10:26:36 PM
Faethe writes: they are also going to need desalinization plants

I've been thinking about this problem a lot. Desalination looks like an attractive option at first glance; but, there are a lot of technical problems that arise during large scale operations.

Whether you use reverse osmosis, evaporation or electrolysis, you're talking about a huge energy investment. And, then there's the problem of what to do with all the salt that is left behind. You can't just dump it back into the ocean. It would do a lot of environmental damage.
 
2003-03-28 10:28:01 PM
Faethe
Never use "Straight up" in a conversation again. You've been warned;)

what was the primary source of income/capital/subsistance pre-oil? sheep. not much of a base to work with there. can Iraq serve as another India, where the best and brightest work for multinationals while the rest live in squalor? sure, but would we wish that on anyone? WTO has a very bad track record with de-socializing economies (most of Africa, Russia, etc) because they can only deal with entrenched interests, cuz dey gots da cash. i dont think we'll solve this this evening;)
 
2003-03-28 10:28:54 PM
 
2003-03-28 10:30:26 PM
Wells Ladeez and Gents,
The sun is coming up here in Qatar, and that means my time with you must come to a close. Been loads o'fun. Hope to see you all around some other time.
/Ender sleepy....
 
2003-03-28 10:30:46 PM
Ender_rpm writes: the Guerillas we're fighting now are driven by thier desire to keep the perks thier accustomed to under this regime, not for ideology per se.

I think it's too early to make a reliable argument on their motivation. There are lots of other factors that play a part: the feeling among Shi'ites that the United States let them down when they rebelled a decade ago. There's also the fact that many Iraqis blame the United States for the sanctions that killed so many of their children. There's the fact that people fight for their homeland even if they hate their government. And, not least among these, is the fact that they see the double standards the US applies in its Middle East policies.
 
2003-03-28 10:30:49 PM
Ender

For sure this is nothing like Viet Nom, people are making that assertion because there is a guerilla faction of asshats involved in this, and a nasty civilian component such as kids blowing themselves up and toting weapons.

As for Iran, if we are based smack next to their fundy arse, the population will see, as it becomes increasingly isolated, the advantages of living in a free market society. I don't doubt they will bolt arse across the border ala Mexico to work in Iraq, and eventually immigrate. The other reason for this war, I think, is to force a progressive perspective on all of them in the Middle East, so they will chill out, see alternatives to raging hateful fantacism, and become wealthy middle class pigs like the rest of us aspire to be.
 
2003-03-28 10:31:06 PM


Better image.
 
2003-03-28 10:32:42 PM
Ok, last comment:
Aww, look at the troll;) STFU we're having a good time here WITHOUT YOU!!!
(ElasticSquirel, this means you)
 
2003-03-28 10:33:35 PM
Oh, two images wasn't enough for Ender?



Meh.
 
2003-03-28 10:34:48 PM
Squirrellboy
Feh. Figures youre from Montgomery county. Come up to B'more when i get home and I'll buy you a beer:)
 
2003-03-28 10:35:19 PM
Haha yeah, this county eats it.
 
2003-03-28 10:36:10 PM
G'night folks.
 
2003-03-28 10:37:45 PM
ElasticSquirrel, old threads never die. They just fade away.
 
2003-03-28 10:38:27 PM
This thread rocked. I learned things. Yah!

/spent
 
2003-03-28 10:40:16 PM
Ender

Hah! Well goodnight to you out there in Quatar, keep safe! No - this is not going to get solved in one night - Iraq is a mess from start to finish - the only other thing I can think of is to flex our (the US) collective free market muscles and place some of our own manufacturing concerns in Iraq. As long as they have the oil float, they won't have the destitution that India has, and not everyone will become part of the brain pool. TOURISM - take it from someone who lives in a 2 billion dollar micro economy here in Orlando, never underestimate the power of tourism.

Remember - Baghdad is the oldest city in the world. I personally would spend huge bucks to go.

Eraser

Surely someone has come up with something to do with all that by-product, but yeah - this is an environmental concern. BUT they have enough bucks to encourage the developement of a technology that will enable them to export fresh water to outlying areas.
 
2003-03-28 10:41:10 PM
Ahh, nothing like wasting the day playing video games to really put things into perspective.

so, I miss anything.
 
2003-03-28 10:44:02 PM
I won't be putting flowers in my hair but I will be sure to find a Flower Girl to spend some time with.

The thread may be close to dead but the battle never ends.

Good luck justifying Bush Clonenizing the whole world to suit his economic needs. Wonder what they think about that.

Did I say Clonenizing? Colonizing.
 
2003-03-28 10:45:55 PM
nite all, have a fun weekend.
 
2003-03-28 10:46:37 PM
must..(sputter)...get..(gasp)...last..post..
 
2003-03-28 10:47:51 PM
Yaaaa, congrads to Tonguedepressor for getting the last post!
 
2003-03-28 10:50:13 PM
Last post is mine!
 
2003-03-28 10:58:26 PM
03-28-03 09:36:09 PM Ender_rpm
...The Roman Empire and the HRE were TOTALLY different organizations....


Indeed Ender,
The HRE was neither Holy (theological), Roman, nor an Empire.
Someone please study some history. The Roman empire split into two, Byzantium in Greece, and the Papal States in Italy, neither of which were the HRE.
 
2003-03-28 11:09:39 PM
I'm not interested in getting the last post, but I have been thinking, and Ender, if you are still out there, here are some inadvertent economies that could help to fund Iraq

1. Tourism. Baghdad, (Nineveh and Ur) are the oldest cities in the world. Tourism does not require an enlightened nor particularly educated populace, is self sustaining, and moral boosting (especially as things are preserved and the pride of the populace grows).

2. Eco-Tourism. There are a lot of incredible little creatures that live in the desert. This is another low impact, hightly profitable way to stimulate economies in outlying areas. Euromastix Mali, a cute little lizard that is a popular pet in the US, I believe lives in the desert...

3. Film industry. Most countries at this point have realized the profitability in a film industry, most notably India with "bollywood", taste not withstanding.

4. Anthropological/Cultural Studies - This would rapidly become one of the most popular universities in the world. There is a huge deficit in the Anthro community when it ccomes to access to a lot of disputed/dangerous territories that are essentially rich. I cannot express to you how valueable Baghdad is, especially in the intellectual community, by virtue of it's antiquity.

These are just a few ideas, but ones that are completely viable, and also, low impact. Saddam was such a complete asshat, he never even considered how immensely valueable low impact, open forms of economic stimulus would be.
 
2003-03-28 11:14:22 PM
It wasn't us.
 
2003-03-28 11:18:41 PM
Faethe
Ok, im still up. too much coffee... :)
Those ideas are great, but look at the tourist industry in New York to see how "climate" dependent tourism is. Its the stability thing, which will be hard to accomplish. also, have you ever worked in a place where tourism is huge? (Disney, etc) not the best wya to get people to repsect other cultures "What do you MEAN theres not a NO SMOKING section? Its the Law!!" "Not in this country Madame..."

Bukharin
Morning;) thanks for the back up. join the mosh:)
 
2003-03-28 11:22:51 PM
Ender_rpm
No problem. I could see how people would make that mistake, except just a little research is all it takes to correct that problem.
 
2003-03-28 11:24:08 PM
Welcome to Dislamy world, Bagdad.
I'm going to Fatwa Kingdom to ride on Jihad Mountain.
That will be fun.
 
2003-03-28 11:24:36 PM
5. Porn Servers-since porn can be hosted anywhere in the world and still quickly accesed, Iraq could create huge server farms to feed the more than 5 billion estimated pervs in the world at 9.99 (USD) per month, they would have a butt load of money.
 
2003-03-28 11:26:19 PM
B
Yeah, we went a few rounds on that one before realizing it was TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. fun though. so whats new? any thoughts on the economic restructuring of the post-hegemonic Middle east?
 
2003-03-28 11:26:32 PM

The media always blow everything out of proportion.
 
2003-03-28 11:28:42 PM
I'd just finished beer #3 and I went to the fridge to get another. Imagine my surprise when I found that there were four missing from the twelve-pack. Was somebody in my house?
Made a quick check upstairs, downstairs, and in the johns--no luck. Three bottle caps stacked next to the monitor, four beers gone..WTF?!?
Ten minutes later and finally I have my answer: one Bud bottle frozen solid in the freezer.
 
2003-03-28 11:29:29 PM
Shut......Up
a "server farm"? riight... though, given its central location to 3 continents, it could easily become the communications and commerce center of the world, like it "used" to be. Of course, the US will have to be willing to give up its business supremacay for that to happen, though politically after all of this. maybe we will have. dicsuss.
 
2003-03-28 11:30:35 PM
Supremacy. oops
 
2003-03-28 11:32:35 PM
ok, good night again.
 
2003-03-28 11:33:32 PM
Ender_rpm
I think there is hope for the mid-east fundies.
Turkey is in much better shape than anyone could have imagined 20... 30 years ago. One of the "stans" (Turkmen', I believe) Changed the official alphabet from Cyrillic (the Soviet mandate) to the Latin (western) instead of Arabic. I think the reason was to get more western trade. Globial economy... schmobile economy... language STILL plays a huge part in lubricating trade.

I think it would be better to use the de-Franconisation of Spain more than the de-Zanifying of Germany as a model for restructure. Spain was (dare I say, "is") a 3rd world country where as Germany had the infrastructure for an easier transition.
 
2003-03-28 11:36:04 PM
Lusso
If you were keeping score, you will find you forget about the freezer beer more often than you drink it.
A fallen warrior is a sad thing.
 
2003-03-28 11:37:27 PM
Lusso
Don't you just hate it when that happens, and the werst part is you have nobody to blame but yourself, and you sucked back warm beer when that poor soldier gave his all in the depths of yer freezer, and dang, how could I have been so schtupid? speaking from past experience, been there done it......
 
2003-03-28 11:38:00 PM
Errr...

de-Zanifying = de-Nazifying

Damn pitcher specials at the pub.
 
2003-03-28 11:42:10 PM
"it could easily become the communications and commerce center of the world, like it "used" to be."

"Used" as in 1000 years ago? ya it "used" to be I guess.

Besides all Iraq needs to do is sting some cat5 along. One or two line should do it.
 
2003-03-28 11:44:42 PM
Bukharin
de-Zanifying = de-Nazifying

I dunno, I kind like de-Zanifying, it fits and best of all it is appropriate for so many situations. I do believe that you may have accidentilly coined a new farkism that can be mercilessly exploited until int becomes mundane, or ?
 
2003-03-28 11:48:12 PM
Oh Oh, aljazeera is back up......
One of the milder images posted there:

 
2003-03-28 11:48:39 PM
Nhcfark
I kinda like it too.
It is easier to read, with the "Z" at the start instead of hidden somewhere in the center. Maybe that's why I didnt notic it at first.

I hope someone will post some good "zanifying" boobies links this weekend. The past few days have really sucked.
 
2003-03-28 11:51:21 PM
03-28-03 11:48:12 PM Nhcfark
Oh Oh, aljazeera is back up......


Do you have the English version URL? Or is it still down?

Ive been reading Pravda and it is quite disturbing.
 
2003-03-28 11:51:44 PM
Bukharin & Nhcfark:

No doubt...I'll do my best to revive him. Thank heavens the bottle didn't break.
 
2003-03-28 11:54:27 PM
If the bottle didnt break you are golden.
If it were a can...
well...
I had a Genesee Slushy once... ONCE!!!
 
2003-03-29 12:09:43 AM
I went over to this guys place once, and he had nothing but frozen cans o' bZZr in the fridgomatic, so He sticks one in the microwave to thaw it out. I'm, like.....
*metal*
*frozen*
*sealed container* ????????
But you know what?
It actually thawed, and I drank the thing.
I did develop this strage growth, but....

Don't try this at home, kids, try it at yer friends place....
hehe
 
2003-03-29 12:11:20 AM
That is gross.
 
2003-03-29 12:13:21 AM
Bukharin

Yeh, Boobies links have gotten sorta "soft" lately. I heard that Drew was overseasomewhere, and kitten lovers have hacked into FARK

Now where the did I hear that?
 
2003-03-29 12:15:29 AM
I know it's late...
Slow news day...
no boobie links...
Ive been drinking...

I think I'm going to hit the hay.
Fridge = Good
Freezer = Bad
Zanify yourself.
 
2003-03-29 12:19:28 AM
It was on of those situations where you "had to" drink the unthawed frozed soldier, in order to save face, if'n youse know what I mean, and honestly, I wasn't that bad. I thought that I knew everything, but the power of the sub-human mind is to be beholden.
gotta get anuther brewski...
 
2003-03-29 12:20:27 AM
is this thread dead yet?
 
2003-03-29 01:19:19 AM
Somebody kill this farker
 
2003-03-29 01:20:29 AM
Argh, picture posting has been killed!
 
2003-03-29 01:25:11 AM
post the link, i'll set it up, altho sometimes sites can prevent linking...
 
2003-03-29 02:13:41 AM
malls... the old days, had this one with glass elevators, used to hang out next to the "L" light :)
 
2003-03-29 02:28:55 AM
03-28-03 07:37:14 PM Frazetta_chick
About the whole US conspiracy thing... Jed Babbin on NRO suggests that Saddam may set up and film an atrocity by rounding up Iraqi civilians, dressing his troops in American gear, and slaughtering them while Iraqi TV films it.

This is plausible. This is why I don't believe anything I see or hear until both time and additional information is available. War is hell, baby. And truth is the first casualty of war.


someone else may well have already made this point, but after the thread turned to Dune references, my eyes glazed over and couldn't read any more.

doesn't this make saddams request for coalition vehicles all the more scary? 'steal a coalition vehicle, give it to us, and claim your reward like a good iraqi'

if one of those wackjobs end up w/ a tank/armored vehicle.. it wouldn't matter that a non american was driving it... you wouldn't see the person.. just the vehicle. i fully expect within 2 days of us losing any military vehicle, we'll see it again on al jazeera, all by itself, blowing the living shiznit outta a preschool in bagdad.

here's hoping they use ©The Club
 
2003-03-29 02:30:45 AM
Xtremehkr:

You are wrong about your comparison of the current Iraq War to Desert Storm.

You said:

Desert Storm: 60,000 POWS after 3 days
Now: 5000 POWS after 8 days

You forgot about the Desert Shield part of the operation, which consisted of 5 weeks of intense bombing of the Iraqi units. So, in reality, it was:

Gulf War: 60,000 POWS after 40 days
Iraq War: 5000 POWS after 8 days

In that respect, this war is right on track. The bulk of the Iraqi forces are being decimated from the air as we type (which they were not the first week of the war). The latest reports say that the Medina division, the largest Republican Guard unit south of Baghdad, is already down to 65% capability.

So, your comparison to Soviet Union/Afghanistan is incredibly premature. I would wait a few weeks to make that pronouncement, when we'll see if the Republican Guard is annihalated/surrendered/deserted.

By the way, I won't even go into the fact that the Russian army in Afghanistan was poorly equipped, undermanned, had zero morale, and made no effort to win over the civilian populace with humanitarian aid...
 
2003-03-29 02:35:38 AM
That there's probably a thatched-roof mall I'll reckon.
 
2003-03-29 02:46:52 AM
Also, one final note:

U.S. soldier death comparison:

Gulf War: 293 in 40 days (148 combat, 145 accidental)
Iraq War: 28 in 8 days (15 combat, 13 accidental)

Something to think about when you get depressed about all the negative media coverage.
 
2003-03-29 03:17:49 AM
BbCrackmonkey says-"Kinda like how we blew up our most expensive buildings in order to invade Afghanistan and steal their rocks."

Don't be fooled by the rocks we gots. We stole them, like good Evil Jewish Zionist conspirists do; she's still Jen from the block just in case you wondered.
 
2003-03-29 03:45:37 AM
"It was an American cruise missile, we know from the markings and writing on it," said a Kuwaiti police colonel who did not give his name. "It doesn't go up, it comes in low from the sea, and that's why there was no alert."
 
2003-03-29 05:41:52 AM
I'm still waiting for the big one to drop.

Name that movie: "Mr. President, The Button!"

Also brings to mind an old song...


Behind the Barrier

in the closing minutes of pre-zone time
with the world hanging over the edge
as the messages flew down the red-hot lines
we did the body counts in our heads
and the true believers looked on and laughed
as the landscape cracked and bled
behind the barrier

well i still don't know how he did it
and i wonder how high it goes
i only know that life goes on
for the lucky ones here in the zone
and the true believers looked on and laughed
till the last cruise missle had flown
behind the barrier


and the minutemen stood as we knew they would
and the world went temporarily sane
and the radio said
"my god, cover your heads
and get out of the boiling rain"
and the true believers looked on and laughed
till the last cruise missle had flown
and life goes on for the lucky ones
out here in the zone
behind the barrier
ya ya ya ya ya ya ya
behind the barrier
 
2003-03-29 05:55:36 AM
And TATU, oblivious to the news, continued to frolic in their underwear...

{/I like my threads spicier}
 
2003-03-29 01:55:02 PM
The Patriot kicked the missile off target, evidently -- it may have been headed for the palace. Instead it hit a mall, killing no one, and saving lives

And then
.. I don't believe anything I see or hear until both time and additional information is available.

When you make up your mind, let us know.
 
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