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(The Register)   Nanny state uses new terrorism powers to arrest schizophrenic with an Estes model rocket and a pocket knife   (theregister.co.uk) divider line 120
    More: Stupid, counter-terrorism, The Register, refusal, MPs, arrests, criminal records, police station, no charges  
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5761 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Nov 2009 at 10:41 AM (5 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2009-11-24 11:54:14 AM  
Another Government Employee: Iron Chef Scottish: One word: Guantanamo.
It's a 'STFU Yank Card'. Valid for the next 10 years.

Only if you are a Muslim.

That's not to say the authorities won't try to make your life miserable otherwise.


Like put you on a no-fly list for ever?
 
2009-11-24 11:58:56 AM  
Iron Chef Scottish: One word: Guantanamo.
It's a 'STFU Yank Card'. Valid for the next 10 years.


At which point in time Obama's successor will have finally closed the camp.
 
2009-11-24 12:04:49 PM  
The Envoy: Nanny state uses new terrorism powers to arrest schizophrenic with an Estes model rocket and a pocket knife...and traces of high explosive on his hands, after failing to appear at police stations on appointment, leaving town, missing bail after leaving the country, refusal to answer questions, refusal to comply with lawful orders, posession of a book on gun manufacture and a book on methamphetamine production (not in itself illegal but suspicious given the rest of the circumstances) and his refusal to speak making pre-trial interviews pointless (how can you determine someone's stae of mind when they simply don't talk?), yeah, he'd have got off all of that in another country. GOD DAMN NANNY STATE HEY?!!!

Go frkk yourself subtard.


Not subby, but I'll step in on his/her behalf, mostly because you're obviously a dick.

I notice that you neglect to cover the "All charges are dropped except those involving him being unwilling to fully cooperate with the police and failing to provide them with the incriminating evidence they were hoping to have him provide to them" part of the story.

Go shine your jackboots, asshole.
 
2009-11-24 12:05:41 PM  
The Envoy: Nanny state uses new terrorism powers to arrest schizophrenic with an Estes model rocket and a pocket knife...and traces of high explosive on his hands, after failing to appear at police stations on appointment, leaving town, missing bail after leaving the country, refusal to answer questions, refusal to comply with lawful orders, posession of a book on gun manufacture and a book on methamphetamine production (not in itself illegal but suspicious given the rest of the circumstances) and his refusal to speak making pre-trial interviews pointless (how can you determine someone's stae of mind when they simply don't talk?), yeah, he'd have got off all of that in another country. GOD DAMN NANNY STATE HEY?!!!

Go frkk yourself subtard.


he's a schizophrenic posttard.
 
2009-11-24 12:09:13 PM  
Iron Chef Scottish: One word: Guantanamo.
It's a 'STFU Yank Card'. Valid for the next 10 years.


the Ministry of Love will be seeing you soon.
 
2009-11-24 12:18:57 PM  
The Envoy: So he'd have gone free in the US having done all of that would he?! You, my friend, are deluded if you think so.

There is a right to remain silent in the USA and in Canada it is a Constitutional right. I am pretty sure the right to remain silent has not been revoked through legislation. That being the case, tell me what law would he have been convicted under here? Aside from not providing the keys, what did he exactly do? Own a model rocket and pocket knife? Own books containing information that would be illegal to put into practice? Have allegedly had a form of explosives on his hands - which the authorities have refused to prosecute him for?

It appears that England has forgotten the tenet of "innocent until proven guilty".

In Canada and the USA, for the most part, acting sketchy in the absence of an actual crime does not result in imprisonment. That is not to say that it does not occasionally happen or that we don't have rotten laws on the books. Just that our basic freedoms, such reading what we want without fear of imprisonment, the right to remain silent, and the belief that a person is innocent until proven guilty still continue to be cornerstones of our judicial system.
 
2009-11-24 12:22:11 PM  
Pardon Me Sultan: Not subby, but I'll step in on his/her behalf, mostly because you're obviously a dick.

I notice that you neglect to cover the "All charges are dropped except those involving him being unwilling to fully cooperate with the police and failing to provide them with the incriminating evidence they were hoping to have him provide to them" part of the story.

Go shine your jackboots, asshole.


Really? Obviously a dick? Truly hurtful! So you maintain that subtard's headline presented all the facts, do you? What do you have to say about my assertion (and the others in this thread) that this is hardly "nanny state" given how other countries would react to this kind of case? Or were you in too much of a tearing hurrry to whip out your hilariously original "jackboots" line to fully engage your pea-brain?

I'll go slowly because you're obviously struggling: His failure to comply with LAWFUL orders was UNLAWFUL. See? That means he broke a law. Would he have walked in the US after a long list of violations like the above? He was required to provide evidence to the police in relation to charges being brought against him. In the absence of any refutation on his part of that evidence, the police had a whole laundry-list of violations (RDX traces, missing bail, leaving the country, attempting to enter other countries, posession of questionable materials including literature on making pipe bombs) that he refused to deny. Do you STILL maintain that they should have let him go? If you do then there's definitely an asshole here and it's not me!

Run along chum, adults are talking.
 
2009-11-24 12:23:27 PM  
Antimatter: Model rockets, oh how I love thee.

Was big into them as a kid, but stopped buying them. Limited selection, and when the local stores stopped carrying them, that was pretty much the end.

My sister got back into it in college. Living in Austin, we have hobby stores that carry the good stuff. Picked her up a e-engine powered D-Region Tomahawk. Mofo is three feet tall, and goes up like a thousand feet. Absolute beast.


When I was a kid I remember the engines coming in 5 packs.. rather then launch a rocket 5 times it was fun to just set off the engines without a rocket and watch as they fly horizontally through a parking lot.

Once I jokingly dared my brother to launch one off in the basement. He wouldn't do it, and i then told him i was messing around, and that he shouldn't do it.

Later that night he did it.

Almost lit the house on fire.
 
2009-11-24 12:24:31 PM  
Proving once again that police follow the rule "Guilty until proven innocent."

Good for him for standing up for his rights, or at least his perception of his rights. He certainly has suffered for his principles.
 
2009-11-24 12:26:00 PM  
You know, there's serious worries regarding this story. I'm just not happy being lectured to by a country which imprisons more people per capita than any other democracy, then crows about freedom.
 
2009-11-24 12:27:28 PM  
Pardon Me Sultan: I notice that you neglect to cover the "All charges are dropped except those involving him being unwilling to fully cooperate with the police and failing to provide them with the incriminating evidence they were hoping to have him provide to them" part of the story.

Go shine your jackboots, asshole.


The charges would be a waste of time to pursue. They could spend a lot of time preparing a case for them and arguing them in court, just to achieve and end result of adding a fine and a 3 or 4 weeks onto the end of the sentence. The guy's been sectioned and will receive treatment for his mental illness.
 
2009-11-24 12:28:52 PM  
luckyeddie: Marcus Aurelius: The Envoy

So he'd have gone free in the US having done all of that would he?! You, my friend, are deluded if you think so

In the US there would be nothing to charge him with. He kept his mouth shut like a good citizen should.

In the states he would have been in Guantanamo Bay before you could say "Right wing fascist conspiracy, fark you Bush and Cheney and your phoney war for oil"


1/10.....although good effort getting all the buzz terms in there.
 
2009-11-24 12:34:21 PM  
rattchett: There is a right to remain silent in the USA and in Canada it is a Constitutional right. I am pretty sure the right to remain silent has not been revoked through legislation. That being the case, tell me what law would he have been convicted under here? Aside from not providing the keys, what did he exactly do? Own a model rocket and pocket knife? Own books containing information that would be illegal to put into practice? Have allegedly had a form of explosives on his hands - which the authorities have refused to prosecute him for?

It appears that England has forgotten the tenet of "innocent until proven guilty".

In Canada and the USA, for the most part, acting sketchy in the absence of an actual crime does not result in imprisonment. That is not to say that it does not occasionally happen or that we don't have rotten laws on the books. Just that our basic freedoms, such reading what we want without fear of imprisonment, the right to remain silent, and the belief that a person is innocent until proven guilty still continue to be cornerstones of our judicial system.


See, there's your problem. You seem to think the Constitution is law in the UK and that the authorities in the US would have let this gentleman go. You also seem to think that the right to silence has been revoked across the board. You'd be wrong on that.

Innocent until proven guilty still stands here and you're deluded if you can't see that he'd enough incriminating evidence (hi-ex traces, questionable material which, while legal, raised suspicion in conjunction with the other issues and skipping bail) against him to be detained under terrorism legislation then you're being deliberatly obtuse for the sake of arguing. Staying quiet merely compounded a lot of suspicion and plenty of tangible evidence against him. What happens in the US and Canada if you skip bail and/or try to leave the country while on bail? They let you go if you keep your mouth shut? I don't think so. Like it or not, skipping bail is a crime here, so it was hardly "acting sketchy in the absence of an actual crime" was it? He was tried, he didn't even bother to speak then so in the absence of any defence and some evidence that he wasn't utterly on the level, combined with the commission of an actual crime left the judge no choice. You'd have let him go would you?! Really?! I don't think so.
 
2009-11-24 12:38:02 PM  
The Envoy: Another Government Employee: Iron Chef Scottish: One word: Guantanamo.
It's a 'STFU Yank Card'. Valid for the next 10 years.

Only if you are a Muslim.

That's not to say the authorities won't try to make your life miserable otherwise.

Like put you on a no-fly list for ever?


And make any bureaucratic endeavor (licenses, permits, etc.) an impossible situation. Ideally, they then box you into a tax evasion and or RICO charge. May take a while, but if they are determined, the authorities will get it done.
 
2009-11-24 12:40:55 PM  
He sounds like he hangs out on the Fark politics tab
 
2009-11-24 12:43:32 PM  
Burchill: You know, there's serious worries regarding this story. I'm just not happy being lectured to by a country which imprisons more people per capita than any other democracy, then crows about freedom.

The simple fact that he skipped bail, also a crime in the US, seems to be passing these people by. I give up, time to take the plunge:

Holy fark it's JUST like 1984 here! Chancellor Suttler's got all my butter and the CCTV in my bedroom keeps catching me wanking! I left my work permit, travel papers, birth certificate and passport at home when I went out to get some milk from the local shop and the check-point at the top of my road detained me and locked me in a cell for 3 weeks before verifying my identity and then only let me go after I'd turned in my brothers and parents for watching bootleg copies of "Neighbours". My knees hurt from goose-stepping in these massive boots and my brown shirt itches. England prevails!!!

Knob-heads.
 
2009-11-24 12:45:32 PM  
www.urshirts.com
 
2009-11-24 12:45:54 PM  
The Envoy: You'd have let him go would you?! Really?! I don't think so.

His only crime was refusing to give his encryption key to the authorities. All other charges were dropped.

So you can keep regurgitating useless information in an attempt to confuse the situation, but all it's demonstrating is that you have poor rhetorical skills.
 
2009-11-24 12:49:14 PM  
This should really come as no surprise. Of course they're going to apply these laws to something other than what they pissed and moaned about in order to get said laws in the first place. Every other country in history has done the same thing. Over here we instituted draconian laws to "save tha children from tha drugs" and those laws are often misused against political dissidents who are now being targeted with anti-terror laws.
England, unfortunately, has not had the benefit of a hard fast constitution so these laws really are just waiting for the wrong party headed by the wrong dude to sweep in and mis-apply them towards more sinister and direct goals.
 
2009-11-24 12:50:32 PM  
I live in the UK and I'm perfectly happy, I'm not going to put the US down or provide any speculation into the case. This is because I don't really know anything about the case and because I belive that everybody has the right to their opinion. If I wasn't happy here then I would probably move the the US and I'm sure that many of you would go in search of a new land of the free if you ever felt the need to (or raise arms to the government - meh, your choice).

All I really came here to say is this:

Does anybody think it's really cool that there is 2 threads here, the model rocket thread and the same old argument about the differences between UK and US culture ... I like both :-)
 
2009-11-24 12:53:46 PM  
Feed_The_Walrus: Does anybody think it's really cool that there is 2 threads here, the model rocket thread and the same old argument about the differences between UK and US culture ... I like both :-)

A Brit. would be fascinated by that.
 
2009-11-24 01:01:17 PM  
lexnaturalis: His only crime was refusing to give his encryption key to the authorities. All other charges were dropped.

So you can keep regurgitating useless information in an attempt to confuse the situation, but all it's demonstrating is that you have poor rhetorical skills.


Really? FTFA: "He was also charged for his February missed bail appearance and for two attempts to get a new passport falsely claiming his was lost. He says CTC told him he would not get the one they had seized back, so he applied for a new one." Page 3 of the article.

Then Page 4 says: "The suspicion of terrorism was dropped long before trial and JFL was sentenced under RIPA Part III as a general criminal rather than a threat to national security."

So where does it say the charge of skipping bail was dropped? Notice "sentenced under RIPA III", NOT charged under it. Two different things.

There are poor skills being demonstrated, but the area is reading comprehension and the guilty party is you, sunshine.
 
2009-11-24 01:04:24 PM  
eynonmcwanker: luckyeddie: Marcus Aurelius: The Envoy

So he'd have gone free in the US having done all of that would he?! You, my friend, are deluded if you think so

In the US there would be nothing to charge him with. He kept his mouth shut like a good citizen should.

In the states he would have been in Guantanamo Bay before you could say "Right wing fascist conspiracy, fark you Bush and Cheney and your phoney war for oil"

1/10.....although good effort getting all the buzz terms in there.


Look, ma. I hooked myself a fish - and it's pullin' ter the right.
 
2009-11-24 01:10:56 PM  
Prof.Xomox: I did have a realy good chuckle when I read : "One file encrypted using software from the German firm Steganos was cracked, but investigators found only another PGP container."

Go PGP!!!


i hear it's pretty good
 
2009-11-24 01:20:49 PM  
I haven't built a model rocket since rocketry class in high school. It was just a streamer model, probably 8 inches tall, probably a 1/2A or A motor. Worked just fine, but I don't think I ever recovered it, we did our big launch day in a huge field in winter in which you would sink up to your ankles in cold mud and Canada goose feces. My friend in the class built the Estes replica Phoenix missile, like 3 or 4 feet tall, took D motors. Never got off the launch pad, the motor was defective and exploded about a half second after ignition. Supposedly extremely rare for the motors to fail like that. Oh well...
 
2009-11-24 01:43:35 PM  
The Envoy: rattchett: There is a right to remain silent in the USA and in Canada it is a Constitutional right. I am pretty sure the right to remain silent has not been revoked through legislation. That being the case, tell me what law would he have been convicted under here? Aside from not providing the keys, what did he exactly do? Own a model rocket and pocket knife? Own books containing information that would be illegal to put into practice? Have allegedly had a form of explosives on his hands - which the authorities have refused to prosecute him for?

It appears that England has forgotten the tenet of "innocent until proven guilty".

In Canada and the USA, for the most part, acting sketchy in the absence of an actual crime does not result in imprisonment. That is not to say that it does not occasionally happen or that we don't have rotten laws on the books. Just that our basic freedoms, such reading what we want without fear of imprisonment, the right to remain silent, and the belief that a person is innocent until proven guilty still continue to be cornerstones of our judicial system.

See, there's your problem. You seem to think the Constitution is law in the UK and that the authorities in the US would have let this gentleman go. You also seem to think that the right to silence has been revoked across the board. You'd be wrong on that.

Innocent until proven guilty still stands here and you're deluded if you can't see that he'd enough incriminating evidence (hi-ex traces, questionable material which, while legal, raised suspicion in conjunction with the other issues and skipping bail) against him to be detained under terrorism legislation then you're being deliberatly obtuse for the sake of arguing. Staying quiet merely compounded a lot of suspicion and plenty of tangible evidence against him. What happens in the US and Canada if you skip bail and/or try to leave the country while on bail? They let you go if you keep your mouth shut? I don't think so. Like it or not, skipping bail is a crime here, so it was hardly "acting sketchy in the absence of an actual crime" was it? He was tried, he didn't even bother to speak then so in the absence of any defence and some evidence that he wasn't utterly on the level, combined with the commission of an actual crime left the judge no choice. You'd have let him go would you?! Really?! I don't think so.


You are correct in that "skipping bail" is serious. You are wrong in all your other assertions and I believe you are intentionally misconstruing what I have said.

To reiterate:

We have the RIGHT to remain silent. You do not. As a result, we cannot be imprisoned for refusing to speak to the authorities. We are freer as a result.

In the story, the prosecution and the Judge were able to draw adverse inferences on the basis of the silence of the accused, resulting in a presumption of guilt. In the USA and Canada, exercising our right to remain silent in a criminal proceeding does not result in the onus shifting from being on the State to prove guilt to the accused having to prove innocence.

In the USA and Canada, model rockets and pocket knives are not illegal. Nor are we arrested for having information of the sort the accused in the article had.

With respect to the question of explosives - he was not charged and found guilty, so what's the relevance?

I know that Brits do not have rights enshrined in a constitution in the same way as we have here and I am certainly not trying to impose the constitutional rights upon British citizens. I do believe that we are freer as a result of our constitutional rights. We know that greater rights result in an increased potential for danger. Free speech and free association can result in riots. The right to read books on dangerous ideas can result in those ideas being put into practice. Freedom brings risk and responsibility. That said, we have for the most part decided that the freedom of the individual comes before the convenience of the State.

England may not be at 1984 or V for Vendetta and the USA and Canada are not utopias. That said, I would rather live here by a long shot. As a nation you seem to going down the slippery slope quicker than us and judging by the comments of many British farkers, you by and large either don't see it, don't care, or are happy to see it happen.
 
2009-11-24 01:45:15 PM  
Lord_Byrne 2009-11-24 11:02:12 AM

"However, I would expect to be let go when they found out I wasn't a terrorist."


Although UK police would probably use the tired argument that if you had nothing to hide from them you should co-operate, then charge you with wasting police time for not doing so.


"Wasting police time ? Hell, officer, you arrested me!"
 
2009-11-24 01:52:23 PM  
rattchett: In closing, and in the words of Emiliano Zapata: "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!"

Is that before or after you have to remove your shoes at the airport check-in line?
 
2009-11-24 01:53:22 PM  
"In his judgment, Judge Hetherington accepted JFL was no threat to national security and noted his outsider lifestyle. "You... wished to involve yourself in a world which was largely based upon the access to the internet and using computers and not really interacting with other people in the ordinary outside world to any great extent," he said.

Steal This Book - 'How to make pipe bombs'

"It is said on your behalf that you lead an existence rather akin to that of a monk, and that there is nothing sinister in any of this but it is essentially private matters and you do not see why you should have to disclose anything to the authorities.""


My god, he's describing like 70% of fark. I hope most of that spectrum doesn't live in Britain..
 
2009-11-24 02:07:53 PM  
My brother was once arrested under the terrorism act, back before that 11/9 thing. You know when the only terrorists were Irish Republicans and the IRA were recognised as such and not members of the NI government.

Anyway, he was flying home to Belfast from Glasgow and was caught with what the officers believed to be a firearm - it was a plastic BB gun, which belonged to me, he had meant to give to me when he stopped by before his flight.

And when I say caught, I mean let through security onto the plane which then broke down and then had to board another plane and go through security again, at which point they asked if he had a gun in his bag. Nice police work there, Lou.

Of course he replied, "Oh shiat, yes I have." Not believing you get in trouble for having a plastic toy in your hand luggage.

Unfortunately not, he was whisked off to Paisley police station to spend an uncomfortable evening in the cells and then released to fly home the next day.

My father wasn't best pleased.

However, when it went to court the procurator fiscal threw the case out for being a waste of time and said the notion that my brother, a well educated science graduate from a well off unionist family, was some sort of terrorist was laughable.

The nanny state is a lie.
 
2009-11-24 02:26:52 PM  
I'd just like to add that the British are the worst form of life on the planet. Not just practically, but morally, physically, and effectively as well.
 
2009-11-24 02:33:35 PM  
So I thought I would try and tease a timeline and what actually happened out of the article.

Man tries to enter Canada illegaly and gets caught.
Man is bailed in UK.
Man moves to Netherlands (at this point he is a fugitive from the law)
Man attempts return to UK, ostensibly to turn himself in
Sniffer dogs smell some sort of explosive on mans luggage
Man arrested at customs
Customs find out that he has tried to circumvent customs checks by fed-ex'ing stuff directly to a hotel room (which individually the items would probably not be looked at, but altogether, they look suspicious)
High explosive residue found on the man.
Man says nothing under questioning
THEY LET THE MAN GO UNDER BAIL CONDITIONS (yeah, real Gestapo move there, they just locked him up and threw away the key)
Man reports to the police station WHILE CARRYING A WEAPON and is arrested for it (no matter what you think about UK gun/knife laws you must admit that turning up to the cop shop with a weapon in your pocket isn't the most sensible thing to do)
Police request that he turn over the encryption keys to the files on the flash and hard drives that they have siezed in the course off their investigations.
Man again says nothing under questioning
Police warn him that they may issue a section 49 RIPA notice which requires him to turn over the encryption keys for said devices. (similar to a subpoena, and before you say this would be covered under the fifth ammendment in the US I suggest you read up on United States v. Boucher)
Man says nothing
Man is bailed again.
Man skips bail AGAIN and moves house multiple times to prevent being found by the authorities
Man is arrested
Man is issued with a Section 49 notice and the passwords/keys are requested and he is given 1 hour to tell them
Man does not tell them
Man is charged under Section 53 for failing to comply with Section 49 notice, he is also charged with his missed bail appearance and illegally attempting to get a passport TWICE.
man remanded in custody for 3 months until his trial.
Man pleads guilty to all charges thinking he will get away with time served.
Man is sentanced to 13 months in prison (taking into account the 3 months already served and good behaviour should be out in 6 1/2 months)
"something" happens while in prison and he is sectioned under the mental health act.

So at this point, this "innocent" man has done the following.
1) Tried to enter Canada illegally
2) Skipped bail
3) Carried an offensive weapon INTO A POLICE STATION
4) Skipped bail
5) Attempted to illegally gain a passport
6) Attempted to illegally gain a passport
7) Refused to comply with a Section 49 RIPA notice (i.e. a subpoena)

Yet they still didn't charge him under the terrorist provisions of the RIPA act. I mean FFS the guy skipped bail twice, attempted to get a passport illegially twice, traces of explosives have been found on him, he has books about making bombs and explosives and refuses to make evidence available even under court order, yet they charge him under normal criminal laws.

Yeah, thats real nanny-statism or jack-booted nazi-ism or whatever you fancy labeling it at work. I'm now so afraid to go onto the streets unless a policeman demands I hand over my USB stick and give him the truCrypt password. If you ask me, the guy has gotten of fairly lightly.

Also, reading between the lines, it would tend to suggest that if it wasn't for the farkwittry of jumping bail and trying to illegally gain passports that he would have been sentenced to time served for the RIPA offence (though if it weren't for the farkwittery he would probably have never been remanded into custody in the first place).

While RIPA legislation itself may be fail, it is so much less fail than the hyperbolic morans in this thread.
 
2009-11-24 02:39:28 PM  
Nanny state. Riiiight. Don't you lads have the death penalty over there? I quite like living in a country where the state can't strap me to a table and pump me full of posions which are banned for use on animals for being too inhumane because I can't afford a good lawyer.
 
2009-11-24 02:45:33 PM  
Lord Summerisle: Nanny state. Riiiight. Don't you lads have the death penalty over there? I quite like living in a country where the state can't strap me to a table and pump me full of posions which are banned for use on animals for being too inhumane because I can't afford a good lawyer.

Cue quizzical dog look. It's good to know that your rights are secure by virtue of the fact that the government won't use dangerous chemicals to kill you.

Cue non-sequiter on aisle 2.
 
2009-11-24 02:52:47 PM  
rattchett: We have the RIGHT to remain silent. You do not. As a result, we cannot be imprisoned for refusing to speak to the authorities. We are freer as a result.

In the story, the prosecution and the Judge were able to draw adverse inferences on the basis of the silence of the accused, resulting in a presumption of guilt. In the USA and Canada, exercising our right to remain silent in a criminal proceeding does not result in the onus shifting from being on the State to prove guilt to the accused having to prove innocence.


We do have the right to silence, but you are allowed to infer things from the silence. In this case this hasn't happened.
He was issued with a court order requiring him to divulge the password, he did not divulge said password, therefore he is in contempt of the court order.

In the USA and Canada, model rockets and pocket knives are not illegal. Nor are we arrested for having information of the sort the accused in the article had.

Neither are they in the UK, neither is the information, but I would be happy to put money on the fact that if you presented a US judge with the facts of "he has books on explosive making and other ilegal activities, and has proven access to substances that could be used in the manufacture of explosives" he would grant a warrant to search his house, or arrest him for further questioning as I can pretty much guarantee that they constitute probable cause.
 
2009-11-24 02:54:52 PM  
Pinko_Commie: Man reports to the police station WHILE CARRYING A WEAPON and is arrested for it (no matter what you think about UK gun/knife laws you must admit that turning up to the cop shop with a weapon in your pocket isn't the most sensible thing to do)

A pocket knife in a police station.

No matter what I think of the laws, I think that the police station should be one of the places better equipped to deal with the horrors of a pocket knife.
 
2009-11-24 02:55:57 PM  
Pinko_Commie: We do have the right to silence, but you are allowed to infer things from the silence.

That is not true in the States, and is an important part of our Right to remain silent.
 
2009-11-24 02:57:05 PM  
Burchill: You know, there's serious worries regarding this story. I'm just not happy being lectured to by a country which imprisons more people per capita than any other democracy, then crows about freedom.

Just because we're bigger criminals than the Australians, don't let that deter you from our philosophy of doing whatever the hell we please...
 
2009-11-24 03:05:50 PM  
I found the part of the article that said 'override the right to silence' rather amusing. So, if he doesn't talk, are they going to waterboard him?
 
2009-11-24 03:21:20 PM  
One of the guys in CMU's KGB was detained for investigation when a clerk at CVS reported that he had a device with a battery pack.

It was a home-made GPS unit, and the only reason the cops let him go was because they saw the GPS and Windows (CE? Mobile?) logos. Like a bomb or incendiary device could never have those logos. And so if you can't identify something because you haven't seen an advertisement for it it MUST be a bomb, right?
 
2009-11-24 03:28:41 PM  
The Envoy: Nanny state uses new terrorism powers to arrest schizophrenic with an Estes model rocket and a pocket knife...and traces of high explosive on his hands, after failing to appear at police stations on appointment, leaving town, missing bail after leaving the country, refusal to answer questions, refusal to comply with lawful orders, posession of a book on gun manufacture and a book on methamphetamine production (not in itself illegal but suspicious given the rest of the circumstances) and his refusal to speak making pre-trial interviews pointless (how can you determine someone's stae of mind when they simply don't talk?), yeah, he'd have got off all of that in another country. GOD DAMN NANNY STATE HEY?!!!

Go frkk yourself subtard.


In the United States at least, you can have materials containing "dangerous ideas" and refuse to answer questions about it and, yes, you would "get off" which is your term for what we call "having done nothing illegal".

As far as refusing to reveal one's encryption keys: if you're going to be dealing with a fascist country that masquerades as a democracy, you may as well familiarize yourself with TrueCrypt (new window). It can be set up to conceal that there's even encrypted data on the disk.
 
2009-11-24 03:44:33 PM  
The Envoy: Nanny state uses new terrorism powers to arrest schizophrenic with an Estes model rocket and a pocket knife...and traces of high explosive on his hands, after failing to appear at police stations on appointment, leaving town, missing bail after leaving the country, refusal to answer questions, refusal to comply with lawful orders, posession of a book on gun manufacture and a book on methamphetamine production (not in itself illegal but suspicious given the rest of the circumstances) and his refusal to speak making pre-trial interviews pointless (how can you determine someone's stae of mind when they simply don't talk?), yeah, he'd have got off all of that in another country. GOD DAMN NANNY STATE HEY?!!!

Go frkk yourself subtard.


You are a farking moron. That all sounds fine to me. You retarded brits have no liberty. Here in the states we have absolutely no legal obligations to talk to the pigs about anything. I would have told them to go shove a stick up their ass. And the fact the pigs released the titles of some of the books in his library just goes to show that they are trying to smear him. Its farking disgusting.
 
2009-11-24 03:46:42 PM  
zombietheclown: Prof.Xomox: I did have a realy good chuckle when I read : "One file encrypted using software from the German firm Steganos was cracked, but investigators found only another PGP container."

Go PGP!!!

i hear it's pretty good


I doubt the file (probably an image like a JPEG) "encrypted with using Steganos" was actually encrypted. The PGP container was no doubt meant to provide the encryption and the PGP-encrypted payload was just embedded in the image file using some free steganography tool. Detecting and extracting such payloads is fairly simple and wouldn't be much of a "crack". This is educated guesswork, however; an ounce of speculation is worth a pound of fact
 
2009-11-24 04:19:57 PM  
The Envoy: Pardon Me Sultan: Not subby, but I'll step in on his/her behalf, mostly because you're obviously a dick.

I notice that you neglect to cover the "All charges are dropped except those involving him being unwilling to fully cooperate with the police and failing to provide them with the incriminating evidence they were hoping to have him provide to them" part of the story.

Go shine your jackboots, asshole.

Really? Obviously a dick? Truly hurtful! So you maintain that subtard's headline presented all the facts, do you? What do you have to say about my assertion (and the others in this thread) that this is hardly "nanny state" given how other countries would react to this kind of case? Or were you in too much of a tearing hurrry to whip out your hilariously original "jackboots" line to fully engage your pea-brain?

I'll go slowly because you're obviously struggling: His failure to comply with LAWFUL orders was UNLAWFUL. See? That means he broke a law. Would he have walked in the US after a long list of violations like the above? He was required to provide evidence to the police in relation to charges being brought against him. In the absence of any refutation on his part of that evidence, the police had a whole laundry-list of violations (RDX traces, missing bail, leaving the country, attempting to enter other countries, posession of questionable materials including literature on making pipe bombs) that he refused to deny. Do you STILL maintain that they should have let him go? If you do then there's definitely an asshole here and it's not me!

Run along chum, adults are talking.


I'll talk slowly since thinking adults are talking.

Yes, he broke the laws of the disgraceful system you're defending.

The rest of us are aghast at the assumption of guilt, and that not wanting to incriminate yourself is itself a crime under your beloved system.

You live in London? Awesome. You get to live in the shiatty system you love so much.
 
2009-11-24 04:39:58 PM  
Burchill: You know, there's serious worries regarding this story. I'm just not happy being lectured to by a country which imprisons more people per capita than any other democracy, then crows about freedom.

Any other democracy? Try any other country

Land of the 99% free!

/97% if you include probation and parole!
 
2009-11-24 04:54:31 PM  
Came here to see pictures of awesome Estes model rocket stuff. Left disappointed.
 
2009-11-24 05:47:20 PM  
I'll try to be constructive, since fanning the flames makes for bad discussion.

The guy definitely broke a range of laws, most of which are reasonable no matter where you live, such as skipping bail, illegal entry, and attempting to falsely gain a passport. The real concern I have about this case is that his insistence on staying silent was used against him all the way from arrest to sentencing, and the fact that a law exists which can force a person to hand over their encryption keys. I concede that a precedent for the latter may also exist in North America, and I would be equally troubled to see it happen in any democratic country.

It seems that in this case the onus was on him to prove his innocence, rather than on the legal system to prove guilt. Likewise, the fact that prosecution can happen for refusing to divulge encryption keys is just as worrying, since it removes the last barrier we have for digital privacy.
 
2009-11-24 06:21:07 PM  
abigsmurf: As much as the thing he was eventually sectioned for is a horrible law, I get the impression that he was going to get himself locked up anyway.

Kept missing court dates and skipping bail, tried to get an illegal passport and leave the country, was generally sending a message of "I'm mentally unstable and I could have the knowledge and equipment to blow something up".

Get the impression that he was anti-terror force's worst nightmare. Someone who could clearly go off the rails at any moment but was just skirting around the edge of the law in a way where he couldn't be forced to receive treatment. Guessing they eventually got tired of the mountain of paperwork he was causing and decided to get him done on a technicality so he could get sectioned.


Yeah. Keep pulling stuff like this and you're going to wind up in jail.

AnubisAscended: Wow, I remember launching Estes rockets when I was younger. Half the time, the engines didn't fire.

/only buit the single-stage model


Then you were either using the el-cheapo igniters or not mounting them correctly. With good igniters and proper mounting our group never had one fail to launch, nor did we ever see a staging fail.

The_Original_Roxtar: Noticeably F.A.T.: AnubisAscended: Wow, I remember launching Estes rockets when I was younger. Half the time, the engines didn't fire.

/only buit the single-stage model

Same here. Only I turned a single stage into a two stage. Also, you know the old NASA saying, "With enough thrust, even a brick can fly"? I know for a fact that you can get at least half a brick off the ground.

/Also put a frog in the egg launcher model.
//The parachute failed.

never had a problem with the engines not firing... my chutes almost never deployed. switched to streamer recovery models which seemed to work better


Make sure you're using enough wadding & don't launch a long-packed chute (spread it out on the ground for a bit first.) We had a few chutes rip loose or the like but nothing ever came down with the chute still furled.

Dire: I haven't built a model rocket since rocketry class in high school. It was just a streamer model, probably 8 inches tall, probably a 1/2A or A motor. Worked just fine, but I don't think I ever recovered it, we did our big launch day in a huge field in winter in which you would sink up to your ankles in cold mud and Canada goose feces. My friend in the class built the Estes replica Phoenix missile, like 3 or 4 feet tall, took D motors. Never got off the launch pad, the motor was defective and exploded about a half second after ignition. Supposedly extremely rare for the motors to fail like that. Oh well...

I sure wouldn't have shot a small streamer-recovery rocket over snow--that would be a bear to find! As for a motor exploding on the pad--never saw it in our group's years of launches. However, solid rocket motors don't like being banged about too much. Drop them too hard and you can crack the propellant of some types. The burn surface is now bigger than it's supposed to be...
 
2009-11-24 06:43:33 PM  
i749.photobucket.com
 
2009-11-24 08:30:49 PM  
they are really REALLY gonna get a kick outa me

my rocket project (new window)
 
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