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(BBC)   Xenophon vs. Xenu   (news.bbc.co.uk ) divider line
    More: Cool, Church of Scientology, Australia, Xenu, Nick Xenophon, freedom of religion, l ron hubbard, criminal organizations, totalitarian regimes  
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18869 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Nov 2009 at 9:54 AM (6 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



180 Comments     (+0 »)
 


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2009-11-18 11:51:42 AM  

Isildur: 8ace: I'd say the tired part is pointing out how stupid scientology is more than all the other baseless, pointless religions

The egregious aspect isn't the religion's myths; many religions have all sorts of outlandish stories. It's their mode of operation that sets them apart: mistreatment of members, harrassment of detractors, blackmail, etc.

Lutheran churches don't hire private investigators to dig up dirt on their critics.
Episcopalian churches don't imprison members.
etc.

People can believe whatever religious beliefs they wish to, but when a religious hierarchy consistently acts as a criminal organization, then yes, there's a reason to single them out for condemnation.


I am deliberately not taking the easy path on that one, btw
 
2009-11-18 11:56:52 AM  

kindms:

Actually it just makes YOU a person who values 1 set of myths more than another set of myths.


You can be a complete atherist, and still recognize that mainstream rleigions are not the predatory harmful organization that Scienology is. Scientology is a recent, purposeful creation exclusively aimed to rip people off. If you can't tell the difference between that and a real religion (regardless of your personal beliefs or not)--you are a fanaical asshat, a relative to religous extremsists you hate yet echo in so many ways.
 
2009-11-18 11:57:16 AM  
Mugato
You can get a Bible for free anywhere and get all the information Christianity has to offer right there, bullshiat or not.

The most important information about Christianity would be the context of its formation, which is not of any interest to even the most avid Christian. How many Christians (as Christians, and not as historians) even realize that the Gospels probably aren't eyewitness accounts? How many know about the flood story in the Epic of Gilgamesh? Why should they, they don't give a fark about truth or reality
 
2009-11-18 11:58:21 AM  

kindms: incrdbil: 8ace:

I'm a troll? I give all religions the same amount of legitimacy as scientology. You tell me what the difference is. I laugh at the brain-washed masses

Intolerant prejudiced douchebag, troll, or jackass, take your pick. Failing to acknowledge a difference between mainstreat modern organized religion and scientology solidly puts you in all three of those categories.


Actually it just makes YOU a person who values 1 set of myths more than another set of myths.

My invisible sky wizard is real. Your invisible sky wizard is not.

When you get down to it that is the crux of the argument.

The un-provable things I believe are REAL
The un-provable things you believe are CRAZY


Hey guys can't you see a grape and a watermelon are the exact same thing! MAN THEY ARE BOTH FRUITS. It's mind blowing!

I can't believe STORES value 1 set of fruits more than another set of fruits. ITS CRAZY.

My invisible fruit is purple. Your invisible fruit is not.

When you get down to it that is the crux of the argument.

The tasty things I believe are PURPLE
The tasty things you believe are CRAZY
 
2009-11-18 12:00:21 PM  

Thrashersk: kindms: incrdbil: 8ace:

I'm a troll? I give all religions the same amount of legitimacy as scientology. You tell me what the difference is. I laugh at the brain-washed masses

Intolerant prejudiced douchebag, troll, or jackass, take your pick. Failing to acknowledge a difference between mainstreat modern organized religion and scientology solidly puts you in all three of those categories.


Actually it just makes YOU a person who values 1 set of myths more than another set of myths.

My invisible sky wizard is real. Your invisible sky wizard is not.

When you get down to it that is the crux of the argument.

The un-provable things I believe are REAL
The un-provable things you believe are CRAZY

Hey guys can't you see a grape and a watermelon are the exact same thing! MAN THEY ARE BOTH FRUITS. It's mind blowing!

I can't believe STORES value 1 set of fruits more than another set of fruits. ITS CRAZY.

My invisible fruit is purple. Your invisible fruit is not.

When you get down to it that is the crux of the argument.

The tasty things I believe are PURPLE
The tasty things you believe are CRAZY


Damn it! Now I want fruit......
 
2009-11-18 12:03:36 PM  
They LOVE the taste of crazy
 
2009-11-18 12:05:35 PM  

RanDomino: The most important information about Christianity would be the context of its formation, which is not of any interest to even the most avid Christian. How many Christians (as Christians, and not as historians) even realize that the Gospels probably aren't eyewitness accounts? How many know about the flood story in the Epic of Gilgamesh? Why should they, they don't give a fark about truth or reality


I wasn't trying to address the validity of anything in the Bible or the Gospels. I was simply illustrating the difference between Scientolgy and other religions.
 
2009-11-18 12:09:58 PM  
colatf: Actually Kate Cebrano was born into the church, she's like OT6 and her mums at least OT8. Check out the lyrics to some of her songs - ones like Brave are 100% about scientology.fark it, none of you will ever look it up you lazy bastards, so here ya go:

I could hear the calling, a million miles away
As my heart beats fills the silence, with words that I can't say
My mother used to tell me, girl time for you will come
And so I sit back and I hold tight, my time has now begun

Chorus:
And I won't ever walk away
I'll just be brave and stay
Hold me till the end
And in your arms I'll rise up high

I wait for tomorrow, remember yesterday
When I was scared of the darkness
And saying things I shouldn't say
But now my life has changed ooh
Just look what I've become
And so I sit back and I hold tight
My life has just begun

Repeat Chorus

Life has been fine as a child up till now
But I found I'm searching for something more
Love it has no reason, don't need none to survive
It's just a little flame in my heart, keep me burning bright

Repeat Chorus

Don't walk away (don't walk away)
Just be brave and stay (don't walk away)
Hold me till the end (don't walk away)
And in your arms I'll rise up high

Repeat ad nauseum
 
2009-11-18 12:10:16 PM  

incrdbil: kindms:

Actually it just makes YOU a person who values 1 set of myths more than another set of myths.


You can be a complete atherist, and still recognize that mainstream rleigions are not the predatory harmful organization that Scienology is. Scientology is a recent, purposeful creation exclusively aimed to rip people off. If you can't tell the difference between that and a real religion (regardless of your personal beliefs or not)--you are a fanaical asshat, a relative to religous extremsists you hate yet echo in so many ways.


Actually. IMHO most religions are predatory and harmful. If we were to examine early stages of all religions in their infancy to established I bet there would be a lot of similarities between Scientology and the rest.

Just because the Catholic church currently doesn't practice burning at the stake, selling indulgences etc etc does not make them any better. It just means they learned their lessons.

All religions were at 1 time considered cults by the mainstream at the time.
 
2009-11-18 12:10:54 PM  

Mugato: Well for one thing, no other religion actually charges people to learn about it. They pass around the collection plate but they don't actually send you a bill. You can get a Bible for free anywhere and get all the information Christianity has to offer right there, bullshiat or not. With Scientology, that will cost you a few hundred thousand dollars.



Actually, Scientology church services are free to attend. Most decent libraries have copies of Hubbard's books and getting them free or cheap at any used bookstore is not hard. You usually don't go around finding free Qurans, Guru Granth Sahibs, the Lotus Sutra or actual Tanakh's. Getting a Catholic Catechism is not free. Just because the Gideons pass around a shiatty 17th century translation of the New Testament for free in different colored jackets doesn't make any difference. If you want advanced training or ministerial credentials in any religion, you have to pay for it. Seminaries, Madrasses, and Yeshivas aren't free to attend either. If you're going to compare, you should try apples to apples, not apples to oranges.
 
2009-11-18 12:12:11 PM  

Mugato: RanDomino: The most important information about Christianity would be the context of its formation, which is not of any interest to even the most avid Christian. How many Christians (as Christians, and not as historians) even realize that the Gospels probably aren't eyewitness accounts? How many know about the flood story in the Epic of Gilgamesh? Why should they, they don't give a fark about truth or reality

I wasn't trying to address the validity of anything in the Bible or the Gospels. I was simply illustrating the difference between Scientolgy and other religions.


And you did a terrible job of it, as others have pointed out.
 
2009-11-18 12:14:31 PM  
If a scientologist lives his or her life as a nice person what is the problem? Jesus and Allah and the rest are sh*te, to be honest. Tom Cruise has explosions
 
rpm
2009-11-18 12:15:39 PM  

kindms: Just because the Catholic church currently doesn't practice burning at the stake, selling indulgences etc etc does not make them any better. It just means they learned their lessons.


FTFY.
 
2009-11-18 12:17:32 PM  

Somacandra: And you did a terrible job of it, as others have pointed out


Elaborate.
 
2009-11-18 12:18:31 PM  
The Xenophon is a pretty cool instrument.
 
2009-11-18 12:18:41 PM  

Somacandra: Mugato: Well for one thing, no other religion actually charges people to learn about it. They pass around the collection plate but they don't actually send you a bill. You can get a Bible for free anywhere and get all the information Christianity has to offer right there, bullshiat or not. With Scientology, that will cost you a few hundred thousand dollars.

Actually, Scientology church services are free to attend. Most decent libraries have copies of Hubbard's books and getting them free or cheap at any used bookstore is not hard. You usually don't go around finding free Qurans, Guru Granth Sahibs, the Lotus Sutra or actual Tanakh's. Getting a Catholic Catechism is not free. Just because the Gideons pass around a shiatty 17th century translation of the New Testament for free in different colored jackets doesn't make any difference. If you want advanced training or ministerial credentials in any religion, you have to pay for it. Seminaries, Madrasses, and Yeshivas aren't free to attend either. If you're going to compare, you should try apples to apples, not apples to oranges.


Again with the damn fruit!
 
2009-11-18 12:20:59 PM  

kindms: incrdbil: kindms:

Actually it just makes YOU a person who values 1 set of myths more than another set of myths.


You can be a complete atherist, and still recognize that mainstream rleigions are not the predatory harmful organization that Scienology is. Scientology is a recent, purposeful creation exclusively aimed to rip people off. If you can't tell the difference between that and a real religion (regardless of your personal beliefs or not)--you are a fanaical asshat, a relative to religous extremsists you hate yet echo in so many ways.

Actually. IMHO most religions are predatory and harmful. If we were to examine early stages of all religions in their infancy to established I bet there would be a lot of similarities between Scientology and the rest.

Just because the Catholic church currently doesn't practice burning at the stake, selling indulgences etc etc does not make them any better. It just means they learned their lessons.

All religions were at 1 time considered cults by the mainstream at the time.


You're wrong on so many points. People have pointed these points out by pointing but you refuse to be pointed towards the right point. I've decided to just replace everything you say with fruit metaphors.

IMHO most fruits are predatory and harmful. If we were to examine early stages of all fruits in their infancy to establishment I bet there would be a lot of similarities between Apples and the rest.

Just because the apples currently doesn't practice burning at the stake, selling indulgences etc etc does not make them any better. It just means they learned their lessons. You know the saying one bad apple ruins the tree because it doesn't fall very far.

All apples were at 1 time considered bananas by the mainstream at one time.
 
2009-11-18 12:23:32 PM  
IMHO most fruits are predatory and harmful.

7. Offensive Slang Used as a disparaging term for a homosexual man.

I didn't mean it like that though I swear.
 
2009-11-18 12:23:51 PM  


Mugato
:
Somacandra: And you did a terrible job of it, as others have pointed out

Elaborate.




Mugato
:
Scientology has no God to worship, it's a self help scam technically turned into a religion for tax purposes, developed by a schlocky sci-fi author on a bar bet.


And any other religion is what?

Mugato: They pass around the collection plate but they don't actually send you a bill.


Good for them. They send around a collection plate but don't ask you for any money
 
2009-11-18 12:24:40 PM  
Allah akbar! my html is all messy
 
2009-11-18 12:27:26 PM  

8ace: Good for them. They send around a collection plate but don't ask you for any money


There's a difference between "asking for money" and "requiring the payment of exorbitant sums in order to advance in the church."
 
2009-11-18 12:29:02 PM  

Wagnerian Omnibus: There's a difference between "asking for money" and "requiring the payment of exorbitant sums in order to advance in the church."


There is no difference between the two. There is also no difference between volunteering for the military and the draft. I can't believe how stupid you are you stupid face.
 
2009-11-18 12:29:58 PM  

Soumac: What a Xenuphone might look like


2 handsets?

8ace: Define Statutory: Do Scientologists glow in... The dark?

FTFY


FTFBY

8ace: incrdbil: 8ace:

I'm a troll? I give all religions the same amount of legitimacy as scientology. You tell me what the difference is. I laugh at the brain-washed masses

Intolerant prejudiced douchebag, troll, or jackass, take your pick. Failing to acknowledge a difference between mainstreat modern organized religion and scientology solidly puts you in all three of those categories.

Here here

Main Street

/pet peeve


Mainstream

/pert pet plus peeve
 
2009-11-18 12:30:05 PM  

8ace: Good for them. They send around a collection plate but don't ask you for any money


Yes they ask, not demand.

Are you people being deliberately obtuse?
 
2009-11-18 12:30:51 PM  
How many know about the flood story in the Epic of Gilgamesh? Why should they, they don't give a fark about truth or reality

Utnapishtim is like an immortal Noah, until the snake steals the flower that gives him eternal life.
 
2009-11-18 12:32:08 PM  

Thrashersk: There is no difference between the two. There is also no difference between volunteering for the military and the draft. I can't believe how stupid you are you stupid face.


To be fair, my face is actually very stupid.
 
2009-11-18 12:34:08 PM  

Wagnerian Omnibus: 8ace: Good for them. They send around a collection plate but don't ask you for any money

There's a difference between "asking for money" and "requiring the payment of exorbitant sums in order to advance in the church."


Yes there is. If your local (any denomination) church had only homeless and/or broke people popping through the door they would be gone. Small-mindeds GIVE exorbitant amounts to the the church, who in turn, pay no tax and give gratification only to people who would find it elsewhere if they weren't so lazy as to rely upon the church. I believe no gods exist. I believe anyone telling anyone so is either deluded or a scam artist. Hence scientology is equal to all other religions, according to me
 
2009-11-18 12:38:14 PM  
either deluded or a scam artist.

THERE

Religion(catholics blahblahblah) is deluded and Cults(scientology) are scam artists. You do see a farking difference you just have your ignorant head shoved so far up you're stupid ass you can't see it.
 
2009-11-18 12:39:03 PM  
And just because I use colorful language to express my point doesn't make me wrong. If you think it does then you are a racist.
 
2009-11-18 12:40:26 PM  

Thrashersk: Wagnerian Omnibus: There's a difference between "asking for money" and "requiring the payment of exorbitant sums in order to advance in the church."

There is no difference between the two. There is also no difference between volunteering for the military and the draft. I can't believe how stupid you are you stupid face.


You were doing fine up until this.....now I smell a fruit troll...

/yes, we have no bananas
/we have no bananas today
 
2009-11-18 12:40:42 PM  

Mugato: 8ace: Good for them. They send around a collection plate but don't ask you for any money

Yes they ask, not demand.

Are you people being deliberately obtuse?


Nope, i've been to church, Catholic church, as a child. Even then I got the impression of what people would say if you passed that bowl along without contributing. My Grandmother would give me money to put in it so as not to look bad. She used to give me two 50 pence pieces until she found I was pocketing one. I didn't see anyone on the row not put money in that bowl
 
2009-11-18 12:41:29 PM  

Thrashersk: And just because I use colorful language to express my point doesn't make me wrong. If you think it does then you are a racist.


I have a friend who is white
 
2009-11-18 12:41:29 PM  

8ace: 8ace:
Yes there is. If your local (any denomination) church had only homeless and/or broke people popping through the door they would be gone.


Well, that's simply not true at all.

Small-mindeds GIVE exorbitant amounts to the the church, who in turn, pay no tax and give gratification only to people who would find it elsewhere if they weren't so lazy as to rely upon the church. I believe no gods exist. I believe anyone telling anyone so is either deluded or a scam artist. Hence scientology is equal to all other religions, according to me

Your conclusion seems to be that scientology and all other religions have one thing in common, therefore they have all things in common. This is faulty logic.
 
2009-11-18 12:45:02 PM  

Somacandra: Mugato: Well for one thing, no other religion actually charges people to learn about it. They pass around the collection plate but they don't actually send you a bill. You can get a Bible for free anywhere and get all the information Christianity has to offer right there, bullshiat or not. With Scientology, that will cost you a few hundred thousand dollars.

Actually, Scientology church services are free to attend. Most decent libraries have copies of Hubbard's books and getting them free or cheap at any used bookstore is not hard. You usually don't go around finding free Qurans, Guru Granth Sahibs, the Lotus Sutra or actual Tanakh's. Getting a Catholic Catechism is not free. Just because the Gideons pass around a shiatty 17th century translation of the New Testament for free in different colored jackets doesn't make any difference. If you want advanced training or ministerial credentials in any religion, you have to pay for it. Seminaries, Madrasses, and Yeshivas aren't free to attend either. If you're going to compare, you should try apples to apples, not apples to oranges.


Nice try. The "ministerial credentials" was good, but when you tried to sneak in "advanced training" you blew it. "Advanced training" in Episcopalianism?

Let me know when non-Scientology churches give you a price sheet for "pastoral counseling."
 
2009-11-18 12:46:50 PM  
Alternative headline:
Scientology to be probed for allegations of "crimes and abuses which are truly shocking". No word yet on cases opening against Catholicism, Islam, Mormonism...
 
2009-11-18 12:48:31 PM  
i.zdnet.com
Tom Cruise's Anabasis
 
2009-11-18 12:49:13 PM  

Wagnerian Omnibus: 8ace: 8ace:
Yes there is. If your local (any denomination) church had only homeless and/or broke people popping through the door they would be gone.

Well, that's simply not true at all.

Your local deity building only has homeless and broke people?

Small-mindeds GIVE exorbitant amounts to the the church, who in turn, pay no tax and give gratification only to people who would find it elsewhere if they weren't so lazy as to rely upon the church. I believe no gods exist. I believe anyone telling anyone so is either deluded or a scam artist. Hence scientology is equal to all other religions, according to me

Your conclusion seems to be that scientology and all other religions have one thing in common, therefore they have all things in common. This is faulty logic.


I believe the one thing in common is they follow a falsity. Religion helps some people, keeps them happy, keeps them on the straight and narrow. I have no problem with that but don't try farking telling one is more legitimate than another
 
2009-11-18 12:49:31 PM  
On the topic of Scientology, what scares me the most is this: Recently I was in the library, and noticed that they have a nice, new shiny collection of L. Ron Hubbard books. Yes, the Scientology ones. I picked up a few, figuring they were good for a laugh. Boy, were they ever. Some of the stuff in there is comical to a sane person. Then I came across this gem. I encourage all of you to check this out, and see if we can squeeze an answer out of them...

From "The Creation of Human Ability", they describe the different steps of their auditing. In quite good detail, I might add. A lot of it is just repeating actions for hours at a time, and a lot of it seems geared towards brainwashing/mental conditioning. Some of these are several pages deep. Then, all of a sudden, on step R2-45, the description is "An enormously effective process for exteriorization but its use is frowned upon by society at this time."

I'm super curious as to what this actually entails.

Anyone have any idea?
 
2009-11-18 12:51:01 PM  

kindms:

Actually. IMHO most religions are predatory and harmful. .


Yep, fanatic. 'Anyone who doesn't believe as I do is a menance', etc.
 
2009-11-18 12:51:37 PM  

Thrashersk: kindms: incrdbil: kindms:

Actually it just makes YOU a person who values 1 set of myths more than another set of myths.


You can be a complete atherist, and still recognize that mainstream rleigions are not the predatory harmful organization that Scienology is. Scientology is a recent, purposeful creation exclusively aimed to rip people off. If you can't tell the difference between that and a real religion (regardless of your personal beliefs or not)--you are a fanaical asshat, a relative to religous extremsists you hate yet echo in so many ways.

Actually. IMHO most religions are predatory and harmful. If we were to examine early stages of all religions in their infancy to established I bet there would be a lot of similarities between Scientology and the rest.

Just because the Catholic church currently doesn't practice burning at the stake, selling indulgences etc etc does not make them any better. It just means they learned their lessons.

All religions were at 1 time considered cults by the mainstream at the time.

You're wrong on so many points. People have pointed these points out by pointing but you refuse to be pointed towards the right point. I've decided to just replace everything you say with fruit metaphors.

IMHO most fruits are predatory and harmful. If we were to examine early stages of all fruits in their infancy to establishment I bet there would be a lot of similarities between Apples and the rest.

Just because the apples currently doesn't practice burning at the stake, selling indulgences etc etc does not make them any better. It just means they learned their lessons. You know the saying one bad apple ruins the tree because it doesn't fall very far.

All apples were at 1 time considered bananas by the mainstream at one time.


www.keviemetal.com

What a predatory fruit might look like.

/Hot
 
2009-11-18 12:55:57 PM  

Apoth: Anyone have any idea?


No, they don't. To suggest any human has any idea of what an all-powerful being who could create what they claim HE created, is ridiculous. Some ego with these people. HE created the universe and these people think they have any clue what HE is up to?
 
2009-11-18 01:00:35 PM  

8ace: Apoth: Anyone have any idea?

No, they don't. To suggest any human has any idea of what an all-powerful being who could create what they claim HE created, is ridiculous. Some ego with these people. HE created the universe and these people think they have any clue what HE is up to?


Repeat for any religion
 
2009-11-18 01:01:58 PM  
I've been disagreeing with 8ace this whole thread because I hate Scientology's guts. Then I remember that Blackwater is a Christian based organization run by Christian maniacs. Apples and oranges are different but both can be rotten.
Scientology is diffent mostly because it's still small enough that we can kill it.
 
2009-11-18 01:03:11 PM  

8ace: 8ace: Your local deity building only has homeless and broke people?


You're moving the goal posts. Your argument was that homeless and/or broke people would not be welcome in any church, not this new argument you seem to be making, that "there are no churches which only welcome homeless and/or broke people."

I believe the one thing in common is they follow a falsity. Religion helps some people, keeps them happy, keeps them on the straight and narrow. I have no problem with that but don't try farking telling one is more legitimate than another

Fortunately for us both, then, I'm not telling you that. I'm not interested in comparing the "legitimacy" of different belief structures. I don't think it's possible, let alone productive. The differences between scientology and other major world religions are mainly in the areas of tactics and intent.

You are welcome to argue that believing in Xenu is just as arbitrary as believing in a Judeo-Christian God without any interference from me. But almost any attempt to equate the tactics and intent of these organizations will not hold up under scrutiny.
 
2009-11-18 01:06:07 PM  
8ace, I just re-read your original "homeless/broke" argument and I misread it initially.
 
2009-11-18 01:07:07 PM  
I agree with 8ace.

Just because something is "mainstream" doesn't make it any less ridiculous than something fringe. Just because a totally erroneous idea is held by many for a longer time, does not make it any more valid than a newer erroneous idea held by fewer. ALL religion of any kind is a at best a useless crutch and at worst deadly and malevolent.
 
2009-11-18 01:10:44 PM  

Isildur: Lutheran churches don't hire private investigators to dig up dirt on their critics.


They don't have to. They have volunteers. Join one and see how long it takes for the nosey church basement ladies to show up to scope out your place.

Isildur: Episcopalian churches don't imprison members.


No, it just feels like prison.
 
2009-11-18 01:12:09 PM  

Wagnerian Omnibus: But almost any attempt to equate the tactics and intent of these organizations will not hold up under scrutiny.


Scrutinise away, old chap. What has scientology done that all other 'major' religion's "good books" condone? Murder? Do scientologists condone murder? I don't know. I'll bet a scientologist has murdered someone. Is it ok by their "rules"?
 
2009-11-18 01:14:25 PM  

Wagnerian Omnibus: 8ace, I just re-read your original "homeless/broke" argument and I misread it initially.


OK
 
2009-11-18 01:15:53 PM  
What Xenophon may look like:

p9.secure.hostingprod.com
 
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