D'ya 'spose he also believes that sex in prison is voluntary?

I heard that the Dixie Chicks are proud of him.

Technically taxes are voluntary. You have the choice to make money or not. So if you choose to not make money you also choose to not pay taxes.

Regardless, this is a violation of his 1st admentment rights. You have the right to say whatever stupid shiat you want to. PERIOD.

I amend with the obvious FIRE exception : \ Caveat emptor (or whatever)

Can't they keep him from saying fraudulent things? I thought that fraud, slander, fire in the theater(unless the roof, the roof, the roof is on fire), and national security were the exceptions to the 1st Amendment.

M1ah, old joke but, why not? Is it okay to yell "Movie! in a crowded firehouse?

/seeker of clarity

Fodder_4_Da_Man
Only if the movie is Backdraft.

Your speech can also be curtailed for inciting a riot. I think that's what the fire in a crowded theater falls under.

It is voluntary if you enjoy going to jail. Gosh, dosent this judge know anything?

his case:
http://www.paynoincometax.com

and, in opposition:
http://www.schiffiswrong.info

I read his book and I haven't paid taxes for the past 8 years! It's great! The secret is... hold on a minute, there's someone at the door...


<prison sentence>

Of course paying taxes is voluntary. And you can kill anyone you want too.

Of course, just because you can choose to do something doesn't mean it's legal.

Tax evaders will now be "Schiff-less" people.

"Let us redefine "progress" to say, just because you CAN do a thing, it does not necessarily follow that you MUST do that thing."

/geek

The cases of people following his advice are starting to show up at the Tax Court now... and getting mowed down in droves. Thanks for coming, judgment rendered in favor of the IRS, and here's your extra several-thousand-dollar fine for spouting gibberish and completely wasting everyone's time. Have a nice day.

The Tax Protester FAQ is another great place to go to read about why Schiff's arguments suck.

Oh shiat, you mean I was supposed to be paying my taxes all this time? Oh crap!!

Wow. That www.zeroincometax.com site linked to at www.schiffiswrong.info is quite a piece of work too.

"There Have Been Many Challenges to the Constitutionality of the Federal Income Tax in the Past, But None on the Basis Presented Here." Well, sir, that's probably because your idea is so blatantly silly that even your fellow tax protestors can't manage to get through it without giggling.

good thing i was too lazy to try his zero tax stunt. I just got a kick arse tax preparer, that saved me enough to keep me happy. I used turbo tax for years, and man was it screwing me over and making me overpay.

And yet they permit people to sell books on how to make drugs, and bombs. The First Ammendment surrenders.

i have to agree with M1ah, he has the right to free speech and charge people if he chooses, look at the amount of people that actually attempted this to how much they attempted to evade, obviously money cannot buy inteligence

im not illiterate im tired

But, if you allow him to do this you have to allow people to call up senile old ladies and tell them they've won a trip to Disneyland, if they just pay the $50 "prize collection fee."

Either way you're directly lying to a person to take advantage of their stupidity for your monetary gain.

Geee.... the First amemdment starts out... "Congrees shall make No laws..."

But sadly, this judge's actions don't surprise me. We as a nation are NO longer free. It's time for all of you to realize that and maybe even be bothered by it (yeah imagine that - maybe THINK about what is happening to a once great nation?) Or will that only happen when some judge decides to ban beer?

Richiep that's happened once before. Ended up being pretty ugly. Doubt they'll make the same mistake again.

And anyway, there are still dry counties around.

there is no free speach problem with the judge's order.

Sidi: Schiff apparently practices what he preaches though, and has done the jail time to prove it. In my opinion, that makes him more like an honest nutcase than a spammer. He's not trying to defraud anyone, it's just that what he says is completly untrue.

First Amendment? Bullshiat. This guy is either advocating illegal acts or engaging in false advertising, neither of which is protected by the first amendment.

That is true. There is a difference in that fact.

Or it could all be a cover. Be ready to do a couple months jail time to make millions off of suckers.

SIDI,

I don't want to insult you but please... THINK about the comparison you just made. You are comparing someone writing a book and a con game. Anyone can publish anything in a book and people can buy it - didn't you ever here of the word "fiction".

Irwin Shiff makes money buy you buying his book, or attending his seminars - he DOESN'T"T profit from you not paying a tax.

In a free country a person has a right to an opinion and to publish that opinion and offer it for sale to other people. A person doesn't have the right to deceive someone out of money based on misrepresentation.

Schiff WOULD be guilty of that if he did something like, run an ad saying send me $40 and I'll send you my book and tape, and then he takes your money and never sends you the book or tape.

I don't think "free speech" extends to your right to sell a book. Especially with the current Supreme Court...

Bullshiat.

He's saying if you pay me whatever the cost of the book is, or whatever the cost of the seminar is, he will tell you how to not pay your income taxes. Then he fails to deliver on that promise, because he doesn't help his clients avoid those taxes.

If I offered to sell you a book on a particular subject, you paid me $40, and I gave you two blank pieces of paper stapled together you would probably be claiming it's fraud.

I'm taking Advanced Tax at law school with a prof who worked for the IRS. I just want to warn y'all...don't fark with The Service. Every presumption is in their favor. But if you don't make $100,000+ you're pretty safe from audits.

And by the way, government employees think every dollar you make belongs to them, unless you can justify otherwise. You've been warned.

He is publishing things that encourages individuals to break the law. Isnt that illegal?

How is this an issue? Advocating illegal activities is NOT protected in this country. This guy is telling people not to pay their non-optional taxes. If I read the article correctly, Schiff caused $47 mill worth of taxes to go unfiled. That's a pretty hefty sum. I'm surprised they aren't just arresting him.

Every april we get these scare-tactic stories in the news... the gov knows lots of people don;t pay nuthin. some of them rely on schiff and some of them just don't give a fark. schiff's arguments are pretty interesting...

i pay lots and lots

SIDI,

Lets you sold me a book on say, "how to sign up for total fark for free" and you sent me that two blank pages, have you committed a crime?

NO!

But could I sue you in civil court saying you deceived me and I wanted my money back?

Yes

AND... If the government recieved a lot of comnplaints from consumers that you are decieving them, they could take action, under comsumer protection laws. But that is not what this judge is doing.

He is asaying that Schiff can not publish a book saying that IN HIS OPINION, if you do what he says, you can not pay any taxes.

If you don't believe me, just go to a Barnes an Noble, and take a look at the self improvement section. There are a ton of books filled with advise, do all of them work? There are books on how I can bring happiness by praying, should a judge ban that because I might have prayed and I got sad? Or how about the classic books on how to pick up women, maybe some nerd that struck out after reading one of those can get this judge to ban them.

"Technically taxes are voluntary. You have the choice to make money or not. So if you choose to not make money you also choose to not pay taxes."

Hey that's true isn't it. So all you have to do is barter. No cash = no income.

You might be able to get away with that out in farm country. But the problem is the government taxes you on any land you own. So you cannot own land if you only barter.

Also another problem I think is that the government considers items to be part of your income somehow. For example, I don't think you can accept a car worth $50,000 without paying taxes on it.

Just another way the government interferes with people's lives. You can't trade services for a house cause the government will say you owe them taxes on it and take it away from you even if you have no money and have never earned a dime.

That's real freedom right there.

Are you sure that not paying taxes is a crime? Or just a civil offense? Is it a crime to urge someone in writing to commit a tort?

Schiff has said over and over that there is nothing in the criminal code that says not paying taxes is a crime.

I dunno if he's right. I don;t have time to read the criminal codes. I have a war to watch...

That's true. There's a lot of new age bullshiat out there too. Faith healing, weird quartz crystal god-beings, cannibalistic zombie-worshipping cults...

You may be right that bankrupting him in civil court might be the better way to go.

Triumph... yeah, something similar to that... :)

Gdoodle: According to the Tax Protestor FAQ Kickaha Ota linked to, it is purely a civil matter. From the section dealing with the 5th ammendment: "[...] collecting taxes is a civil proceeding, not a criminal proceeding."

So as I see it, he's not inciting anyone to perform any criminal action. I don't think there are any statues dealing with incitement to commit tort, therefore he should be able to publish his book.

If, on the other hand, he's being prosecuted because the government believes it's illegal to promise something you can't deliver in return for money, even if you believe you can deliver it, I wonder if it would then become possible for athiests to sue churches they had previously attended to recover any tithes they may have payed.

I lived in Las Vegas for quite a while, and I used to get quite a kick out of this guy. I'd be driving around town and see a big group of mostly middle aged or retired people holding signs saying "URGENT!!! TUNE YOUR RADIO TO AM1100" (I forget exactly the station, but you get the point.

If you tuned it in, and I'm sure tons of people did the FIRST time they saw the signs...it was Schiff talking about tax evasion, and all of his and his followers' "success stories".

It was quite something to behold. Just like a cult, except lots of comb-overs and leisure suits.

Lisa

OK guys here it is, the bottom line for me as I'm off to bed. But let me end this by "committing a crime" (if you're convinced that me saying this is illegal, that is)

YOU CAN SPEED TOMORROW WHEN YOU DRIVE TO WORK. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS SAY, "BANNING BOOKS IS ILLEGAL" TO THE COP WHEN HE PULLS YOU OVER AND IN MY OPINION HE WILL NOT WRITE YOU A TICKET. DO IT, GO AHEAD AND SPEED - I'M TELLING YOU THAT I THINK IT WORKS BASED ON MY RESEARCH.

What I want to know is: All those damn commercials for over the counter medications that list 1000's of people suffer from heartburn, the runs, (or something similar), then they offer their pitch for the medici, then the disclaimer is that this product is not intended to dianose,prevent,treat or cure any disease.. they just called heartburn a acid-reflux disease, say their product can help, then say its not intended to help them.. So is that saying that if it helps you by some such turn of luck, great, and if ist doesnt, oh well we warned you? I want my $5.39 back... or Ill settle for not crapping myself on the way to the toilet.

/rant about my bowels

I actually read the link KickahaOta posted (the whole thing!) and one thing caught my eye; the fact that when Schiff was spending time in federal prison for evading taxes, the IRS garnished the income from his book about how not to pay taxes...to pay his back taxes.

Anyway, I happily pay taxes. I just would love to see all these people who complain about them, when the roads degraded, schools closed, and their houses burned down...these things are all paid for with taxes, people!!

oh wait...

I'd better throught this in... I really don't believe that would work (the speeding defense! LOL). But whatever you think about Irwin Schiff, he does believe that he's right as I've heard him speak a few years ago and then talked to him for quite a bit afterwards. And while I'm not convinced that he's right in his thoughts on the tax law (althought I think some of what he says is true), in a free country he has a right to publish what he thinks.

I beleive that you have to pay taxes even if you barter. Just like having to pay taxes on goods purchased over the internet or in a catalog. technically you should declare them and pay taxes on them.

The in question.

Interesting, he looks like a professor I once had.

There was a huge flap because this guy was a friend of the university's president. He was hired for $120,000 (more than any other professors made, even those with tenure) to teach one into to poli sci section. Needless to say he didn't last more than a semester.

I went back and re-read the story. The banning of the book is against the 1st Amendment. However I think that banning the seminars could be o.k. depending on how strict you want to be. In the seminar I think you could make the case of conspiracy to defraud the U.S. government. The book however shouldn't be banned, after all you have legal books like the Anarchists Cookbook and other such tombs that have been declared protected by the 1st Amendment.

If you used strictly barter you could probably make it under the poverty line on taxes. After all when you barter you exchange things of equivalent value.

"Anyway, I happily pay taxes. I just would love to see all these people who complain about them, when the roads degraded, schools closed, and their houses burned down...these things are all paid for with taxes, people!!"

The government gets money from many sources and pays money to many places. The government would have plenty of money to build and maintain roads, schools, and fire stations without income tax. All they'd have to do is get rid of pyramid schemes like social security.

Citizens, read the Founder's writings. Join the growing number of patriots demanding a 2nd American Revolution. Do you think working wthin the "system" that has evolved into one of for and by the elites can be altered without a revolution?

But, until the citizens retake the government, note the lengthy time it takes for the IRS scum to work through the various levels of the leagl (not justice) system... a system specifically made with many levels to give lawyers jobs (most federal politicians are lawyers).

Estmate your life-span. Estimate the time it will take for the "system" to reach a conclusion on your case. Time it so your are either near death or you are a feeble old fart they wouldn't put in prison anyway.

Live it up in those Golden Years.

And, yes. The government sucks and has lost its "Mandate from Heaven".

Why is it that the liberatarians never get the "why do you hate America?"/"Well go to (insert name of country) then!" statements?

I guess because they tend to identify themselves a little more with the normal conservatives, who do that sort of name calling...so they're spared attacks from that group.

Sorry if someone has already said this, but I didn't feel like reading all the comments. I saw this guy on the news the other day. He says, "show me the LAW that says you must pay income tax." And you know what? No one can, because, he asserts, there IS no law that actually says you must pay income tax. Oh, there's a whole lotta law that tells you HOW to pay your income tax, but no one has yet been able to dig out the one that says you MUST pay and if not suffer this certain consequence.
Whether he is right or not, I think you might want to grab his book before it is off every bookstore shelf as it could theoretically be an interesting read.

As for whether tax evasion is a crime, anyone remember Al Capone? It was the only thing he ever went to jail for.

There was an article around a year ago with this guy that had much more information than this. This guy has also gone to jail for tax evasion and fraud for running these seminars and selling these books and ordered to stop. He does not have a right to commit fraud over and over again.

The article on Fak before mentioned about how all his arguments had already been decided on by the supreme court and that he does not have loopholes that mean you do not have to pay taxes, therefore if you follow what he says, even if you think you are right, the supreme court has long ago said you were wrong, and you will go to jail.

The law that you must pay income taxes was an amendment to the constituion, and then the specifics of what you pay and when, and what happens if you don't, were passed by congress, who were allowed to pass such laws after the passage of the amendment.

Well...

I once read a Times article about how to build a nuclear weapon, and to be honest it was very in depth (although of course someone trying to build the real thing would need much more details). I've watched movies about genocide, read books about rape, read books about hacking US computers, etc etc. The list goes on. Heck, I've seen commercials on TV where an Truck pulls an ice breaker out of the ice (DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME).

Where does it end? We have in this country, supposidly, the freedom of speech. One person suggesting a course of action seems IMO to fill this bill. Granted, things like saying 'fire' in a theatre can directly and immediately impose danger on people. However, writing a book about something, for which people have the time and leisure to think about, seems perfectly in their rights as a US citizen.

and, in opposition:
http://www.schiffiswrong.info

thx Megain, very informative..

I ordered a documentary about Waco from him (Waco: Rules of Engagement) and he sent me that tax stuff with it. I was reading it... It DOES say voluntary on parts he quoted from the law... but we all know it's not.

That's what Loompanics is for:

http://www.loompanics.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/sitepage s/about.html?L+scstore+stvr3574ff7b417b+1054409925

Steven Swan's arguments make a lot more sense, that income tax was for the wealthy, but these taxes started out at a very low percentage, so low that no one would have any problem paying. Meanwhile, the government has grown like a cancerous monster with a ravenous appetite for our money.

The real regressive and painful tax is the FICA. Funny neither Schiff or Swan mentioned it. It started at 1% combined, and now is 15.3%, no exemptions, and the combined percentage now for self-employed people instead of just the employee half since those wonderful Reagan years. I call for a Congressional investigation, after they finish investigating the 2000 presidential election in Florida and 9/11. Who's with me on this?

Eraser8: The imposition of a tax does not require anyone to pay it. Logically, it can't, otherwise, how would you know *who* was supposed to pay it?

Imagine if a law said, "There is imposed upon the sale of beer a tax of $1 per gallon", who would pay it? The person making the alcohol? The seller? The buyer? Both? Neither?

Schiff is not saying there is no law *imposing* the tax. He is saying there is no law requiring anyone to pay it. Every other Federal tax I know of has two laws. One imposes the tax and the other specifies who is responsible for the payment of that tax to the government.

Can someone explain to me why people are bringing up the first ammendment?

The guy is presenting a legal lie as a legal fact. It's not a matter of opinion or "free speech." He claims that paying taxes is voluntary and is trying to convince other people of the fact. The federal government says otherwise. Guess who wins?

This is not a free speech issue. It's an issue of trying to pass off fraudulunt information to benefit yourself and at the detriment of everyone else.

If I went to the store, bought some rat poison, put it in a sandwich and wrote down, "Hey Bob, I made you a sandwich. It's really good, enjoy," I would be held responsible for what happen. I would not be able to claim that my actions were a matter of "free speech."

Why is it that the liberatarians never get the "why do you hate America?"/"Well go to (insert name of country) then!" statements?

Because there isn't, never has been, and likely never will be an alternative libertarian country for them to go to. Right now, it's all theory.

Then again, so was communism at one point...

By the way, the schiffiswrong.info guy is even more insane than Schiff. These guys are very amusing, just like the astrology nuts. They think all the other nuts are crazy, they're the only one that has/knows the real deal.

JK

So, those of you who don't think this is a free speech violation, are you of the view that you are free to speak only the truth? If that's so, who defines and arbitrates the truth?

If you don't want to pay taxes go ahead, punk. But those things pay for a lot more than you value, I guess, and that's a damn shame.

M3wThr33 - I'm not taking issue with that.

Just out of curiousity, do the folks at Enron get to get off the hook for their creative book keeping because it was a "freedom of speech" issue?

How about libel law?

Copyright law?

If an engineer forgets to carry the one, and a bridge collapses and kills hundreds of people as a result, do you argue that his error can be chalked up to "freedom of speech"?

This guy writes a book advocating an illegal activity while CLAIMING IT'S LEGAL. Even the Anarchist's Cookbook won't tell people that blowing up buildings is okay in the eyes of the laws.

This is a pretty non-subjective falsity, not a stance or an opinion. (Or are you willing to call up the IRS and tell them that's it's only they're "opinion" that you have to pay your taxes?). It misreported the law and created a tangible loss for the government (In the tens of millions.).

Darknerd. He's coning people to buy his book that tells them to do illegal things. This is why the book is being banned. Has nothing to do with free speech.

Cheap Bastard...he benefits from the things that the rest of us pay for (i.e. where does he think the funding for our troops comes from?)

Gee some of you people amaze me!

Do you have any idea how many laws were passed and then ruled unconstitutional? Lets just take one... the "Communications Indecency Act"

Lets just suppose that after that bill was passed into law (which is was overwhelmingly in the mid-nineties with something like only 12 Congressmen voting against it) and then I decided to write a book about it.

Suppose in my book, which was published and being sold before the Supreme Court ruled the the law was unconstitutional (which not only did it do, but the Supremes were unanimous in their decision!), I made the case in my book that the law was illegal. Should I be arrested? Should I be shot? Should this judge ban my book?

Supposed I went further and in my book I purposely told someone to violate the law, just so they could go to court to fight it? Should my book be banned then?

Please THINK about what you are saying before you say it. Political free speech is an absolute. Exceptions can made made when it might effect public safely such as yelling fire as is often said, but in no way can you even come close that this book or any political book can do that.

even more...

What about other "beat the law books"

Should this judge ban books that tell you to pass a drug test, how to fight a speeding ticket, or how to make your own whiskey?

Or how about his case that could happen in the future... What if the US Supreme court ruled against abortions and made them illegal? Supposed a women then wrote a book about how you could go to Canada, or Mexico to get one. What if she gave you details on exactly how to get around the US ban on them? Should this book be banned in such a case?

Let's just say that the guys at the IRS have a big laugh every time one of this guy's letters come in.

Then they get to work and prosecute him.

Here's something funny - I paid my taxes years ago and they STILL keep sending me the forms.

Silly bureaucrats.

/Mr. Boffo - Joe Martin

Oddly, I thought my question got to the heart of what Americans fight for, and not a single response. Either I'm wrong (totally possible) or you're all not taking your civic duties <i>too yourselves</i> seriously.

<confused>

... and you can't mix pretend HTML with real HTML. D'oh!

Why is it that the liberatarians never get the "why do you hate America?"/"Well go to (insert name of country) then!" statements?


You mean there is a country with primarily libertarian views and policy... WHERE, SIGN ME UP???

That's the problem, statements like that dont work on libertarians because if you could point us to such a place, WE WOULD GO!

Davidv: France, Canada, Germany, Portugal, Ireland.

Well, gee, call me a liberal hippie pinko commie fag, but I'm also glad that my taxes go towards programs like AFDC, food stamps, Social Security, and Medicare. I happen to be idealistic enough to believe that society has a responsibility to help its members when they need help, but no so idealistic that I actually believe most people would give money voluntarily.

See, I've never needed these programs, but I've come damned close. I know what it's like to nearly get evicted because you can't pay rent, or to go for about a month and a half with a cough because you have no insurance and can't afford a doctor, or to break down at the grocery store because they raised the price of a half-gallon of milk by fifty cents.

But wait, I forgot, everyone on government assistance is a lazy drug addict who uses their welfare check to buy new cars, and live in public housing because they like the exciting atmosphere.

Besides, if you don't like paying taxes, go to (insert name of country here), you America-hating freak.

Ok, listen up:

1. The judge gives the order during our "war" in Iraq, coincidense? After *4+* years of the book being sold, NOW they ban the book. Boy, our DOJ is swift, ain't it?

BTW: All of other Schiff's books and tapes are still for sale.

2. To this very day, the government HAS NOT, CAN NOT, and WILL NOT find one sentence or one phrase in that book (The Federal Mafia) that is false or fraudulent. At the very least, they have not proved it in a court of law. Hmmm...after 4+ years of the book being sold, I wonder why......

3. The 1st Amendment does not protect speech that may harm people or make people break the law by following information that is not lawfully correct. Again, the government still has NOT proven that one sentence in this book is not correct.

4. As further commentary, I am appalled that some of you don't even flinch when you hear of a person's rights stripped away from them without one shred of due process. Think about it, THE GOVERNMENT BANNED A BOOK! The government is also kept Irwin from airing his radio show yesterday AND they are keeping him from speaking publicly. Hey boys and girls, can you think of another country that banned books? Give ya a hint, it start with a G. I knew you could!

Just think about it. If Schiff loses his rights to question the government, no matter the issue, we ALL lose that right! If Schiff and people the government suspects as "terrorists" (Patriot Act) are convicted without due process, THIS SAME THING MAY/CAN/WILL HAPPEN TO US!

Ya get it now?

Steve Martin used to have a bit about to make a million dollars and never pay taxes. Anyone remember it?

I'm with Jasonlcomp on this one.
America is just watching it's rights being taken away and they dont do shiat about it. Dummies... all of you.

I wish they would go after the "Enlarge your penis 3 inches in 30 days" folks, before they go after Schiff. I don't know how many mouses I have worn out clicking the big red X.
Maybe I should just break down and buy "I Hate Spam" software and be done with it.

The judge's order is completely unconstitutional.

I agree with Jason--except his comment on #3 isn't so accurate. The limits to banned speech are much stricter than he suggests.

Especially today in the U.S. the government is making a focussed effort to destroy the Bill of Rights. Unless he fight against it--even for idiots like that guy--we all will lose.

.

just wanna check if this pic host will allow direct links.