What Skinny Puppy song was it that had the sample over and over again of the guy saying "...as it really is!"

This must be Carl Sagan. Yet another successful cannabis consumer.

I'm just posting so I can say I was here before the thread went nuclear.

My most favorite Valentine evar:

jekxrb: --all Carl Sagan

"I do not know what I may appear to the world, but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the sea-shore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."

- Sir Isaac Newton

/pretty much how I feel as a physicist. So far, I've only solved little problems. Fortunately, I take great joy in that... cheers

"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."

That's nice and all, except for the fact that everyone believes that their view of the universe is the way it really is.

The image above was taken at the request of Sagan by the Voyager 1 science team as the robot was passing the 3.7 Billion miles-from-home-marker. Yes, that's us on that little dot at the center right of the image.

Shopped.

yogaFLAME: Why the random PETAGARBL at the end?

I liked it. I don't think it's as extreme as PETA; he is simply reminding us that we, too, are animals and that we should watch our behaviour toward other animals with whom we share the planet. I think it is a good idea to treat other animals with some respect and ensure that they don't suffer; I think it is possible to do that and still eat meat, tbh. The idea that 'it's just an animal' is very common among humans, but we are all living, breathing creatures who can suffer. It shouldn't be a case of 'us' and 'them', but a recognition that we are all animals and we all have a responsibility to act toward others as best we can.

His point, I believe, is more about reminding us that we are nothing more than cruel, little animals who think we are special, superior beings.

muck4doo: He sounds like he thinks he's all superior and stuff.

He's a brilliant man, but nothing about what I've quoted there is particularly 'superior'. However, you've very neatly pinpointed what is a major problem with today's society; if you sound intelligent, then you are condemned as 'elite' and 'superior'. It's almost unacceptable to be intelligent, because to say anything intelligent is to be shunned. Meanwhile it's the height of admirability to be able to throw a ball. Idiocracy is going to end up being incredibly prophetic, I suspect...

wjllope: "I do not know what I may appear to the world, but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the sea-shore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."

- Sir Isaac Newton

That's really lovely. And very well said. :-)

I like these of Sagan's, too:

"The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true. We have a method, and that method helps us to reach not absolute truth, only asymptotic approaches to the truth - never there, just closer and closer, always finding vast new oceans of undiscovered possibilities. Cleverly designed experiments are the key."

"The size and age of the Cosmos are beyond ordinary human understanding. Lost somewhere between immensity and eternity is our tiny planetary home. In a cosmic perspective, most human concerns seem insignificant, even petty. And yet our species is young and curious and brave and shows much promise. In the last few millennia we have made the most astonishing and unexpected discoveries about the Cosmos and our place within it, explorations that are exhilarating to consider. They remind us that humans have evolved to wonder, that understanding is a joy, that knowledge is prerequisite to survival. I believe our future depends on how well we know this Cosmos in which we float like a mote of dust in the morning sky."

"If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers."

Can you have a first annual event? How about calling it the inaugural event instead.


Either way, Sagan rulz. The picture of the 'pale blue dot' changed my life.

Thread has remained strangely....balanced....

Puzzling....

Obligatory listening (new window) for reading a Sagan thread.

"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."


THIS is why I use psychedelic drugs on a regular basis.

Cthia.

squirrelinator: Thread has remained strangely....balanced....

Puzzling....

It's because everyone realizes that even if they disagree with Sagan, he was a sincere man who wanted what was best for humanity. I'm sure that the religious denizens of Fark are willing to overlook his skeptical stance on their most beloved traditions in order to honor the memory of a man whose main goal was simply to help people understand the world a little better. And, of course, no skeptical person, no matter how crass, would try to use such an uplifting event as Carl Sagan Day to bait people into a pointless shouting match.

Obviously, a new day has dawned on Fark.

squirrelinator: Thread has remained strangely....balanced....

Puzzling....

Sagan doesn't provoke the kind of responses that the Dawkins and Hitchens of the world do. His approach is gentle and respectful, and doesn't raise hackles. I'm not putting those guys down, mind you - but Sagan's brand of friendly persuasion is more consumer-friendly.

Marcus Aurelius: It's a good thing that time and space are only existential constructs erected by our meat, or I'd have to come to a dreadful end at some point.
I've probably read that story a dozen times. Had no idea someone made it into a short film (and with the guy from cash cab?). Thanks!

...and when the universe does not meet our expectations, we just start making shiat up so the math works.


/We'll never know the universe as it really is.
/yay, science...

FloydA: susansto-helit: Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World really did change my entire worldview. I'd recommend it to anyone.

Absolutely! One of the best books of the past 20 years, IMO.

I tried reading it this past summer, but didn't get too far. I got distracted by children, work, and life in general. Now that it is winter, I should go check it out from the library.

//Subby

I'm going to have to either go off on a Bhuddist retreat or punch myself repeatedly in the head. One of the two.

Dammit, there is so much going on and you MISSED IT!

When I was in the fifth grade my teacher (the first male teacher I had in school)saw my library book, which was on astronomy and asked me about it because it was written by Carl Sagan. He had some issues with Sagan. Not so much with his astronomy work, but on his stance on evolution.

Now, my teacher never said that it went against his religious beliefs, never said that evolution couldn't be because it wasn't in the Bible. He said that he chose not to believe in evolution because it meant that humanity and he wasn't meant to be, just an accident and he felt much better with the idea that his existence was part of some sort of plan, not a biological solution to environmental conditions.

Sadly his heir apparent is the spastic, juvenile, Neil Degrasse Tyson.

One Thirty-two and Bush: Sadly his heir apparent is the spastic, juvenile, Neil Degrasse Tyson.

I like Tyson, but Tyson is more Bill Nye than he is Sagan. But the world can never have enough popularizers of science. Science is one of the more challenging tasks humans have undertaken, and it requires a great deal of discipline and humility to actually do, combined with the imagination and speculative mind to make it worthwhile.

It's hard. Anyone that is passionate about it and can instill that passion in others is an incredibly precious resource.

One Thirty-two and Bush: Sadly his heir apparent is the spastic, juvenile, Neil Degrasse Tyson.

How dare you besmirch this man. On the Geek tab no less.

Actually, I agree.

While I think the blue dot pic is awesome it doesn't make me feel nearly as inconsequential as does the Eagle Nebula or the Hubble Deep field. In fact, I get pretty proud thinking we were able to put the camera that far out.

One of the most truly monstrous things that I've ever heard was for people to claim that being a geek somehow subtracted from one's love of the universe...

Ohhhh, you do not understand how it works at all, do you?!?!

Mostly this was heard from people who spent a lot on art degrees, but still... How could you not be in love with the world and still NOT be a geek?

When you're a nerd, sometimes the world is so beautiful that it HURTS.

I wouldn't mind having Carl Sagan's very stoned, well set up viewpoint.

One could do worse.

I haven't smoked dope in decades, but if it were with Carl Sagan... mmm... Maybe.

FTFA: If you are in the Davie, Florida area this weekend (Davie is just north of Miami)

I went to high school in Davie, Florida, so I am getting a kick out of this thread.



muck4doo: He sounds like he thinks he's all superior and stuff.

So, he talks like a fag and his shiat is all retarded? Thanks for your helpful input.

One Thirty-two and Bush: Sadly his heir apparent is the spastic, juvenile, Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Gawd I can't stand him. He insists upon himself.

jack21221: I'll just leave these in here.


Here is a link to the original video (new window)

I love Sagan... his "wouldn't want to harsh your mellow" stoner attitude and discussion style is incredible. It makes very complex topics surprisingly accessible to the layman.

It's going to be a loooooong time before any science show exceeds (or even compares to) the standard that James Burke set, though. So much knowledge, in such a dense package.

Speedbts alt: One Thirty-two and Bush: Sadly his heir apparent is the spastic, juvenile, Neil Degrasse Tyson.

How dare you besmirch this man. On the Geek tab no less.

Actually, I agree.

While I think the blue dot pic is awesome it doesn't make me feel nearly as inconsequential as does the Eagle Nebula or the Hubble Deep field. In fact, I get pretty proud thinking we were able to put the camera that far out.

You work for NASA?

maxheck: One of the most truly monstrous things that I've ever heard was for people to claim that being a geek somehow subtracted from one's love of the universe...

Ohhhh, you do not understand how it works at all, do you?!?!

Mostly this was heard from people who spent a lot on art degrees, but still... How could you not be in love with the world and still NOT be a geek?

When you're a nerd, sometimes the world is so beautiful that it HURTS.

"Cool story, bro" time...

I once knew a guy who so strongly believed that trying to learn about science could dampen your sense of wonder that we'd get into arguments about it. At the time, we were both members of a tight-knit Pentecostal group (you could say "cult" and I wouldn't correct you) at a major university in the Midwest. I knew this guy for years, went to his wedding, the whole nine yards. I've met very few people who were nicer and more concerned for other human beings - but he was cautious almost to the point of paranoia about people who wanted to gain a deeper understanding of the natural world.

There were several times where we would get into extended discussions where he expressed concern that my enjoyment of science and engineering might make the universe seem less majestic - and, of course, he'd worry that losing that sense of respect for the unknown would "hurt my relationship with God." He's one of the few people that I've met who simply seemed to believe that some things weren't really meant to be understood, but to be basked under with a sense of "childlike wonder." I was very religious at the time, but I would always argue exactly the opposite - that learning more about creation deepened my sense of awe at creation. That learning about the intricate patterns and systems that make up the world caused me to see wonder in little things that others might ignore - a blade of grass, a computer chip, a cloud formation.

The argument would generally end with us agreeing to disagree, and him silently thinking that I was foolish for trying to mettle in things I shouldn't understand - except for one specific time: I was showing him a silicon wafer that I had processed in an engineering class, and I took about an hour to explain the vary basics of computers to him - Transistors, logic gates, up to circuits that could do simple math. That specific time, I think I could see that I had made an impression on him; that he had gotten a taste of how learning the technical side of something made the world seem neater, not more drab.

A couple of years later, when I was in grad school, I did some digging, came to a few important conclusions, and left fundamentalism behind. My friend, on the other hand, is now a "campus missionary," spending all of his time attempting to bring students into a similar Pentecostal cult on the East Coast. The last long discussion I had with him was me calling him up to tell him that I could no longer support him financially because I didn't believe in what he was doing anymore, and explaining that it was research and study that had led me to that conclusion. To this day, I can't help but think that my story has only served to reinforce in his mind the idea that "curiosity about the world is bad," and that he's now passing that idea on to the students that fall into his shadow.