When management threatens to cut either jobs or compensation, always vote to cut jobs. The jobs will come back when times are good. The benefits won't.

erratick:
Uh not even that. Please don't spout off when you don't know what you are talking about.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/mh?s=F (new window)

The Ford Family as a whole owns 7-8M shares. Ford had 3.2B shares outstanding. The low end of the institutional owners own more than 30M shares, the top end 171M. The Ford family owns less than even a % point. Owning a majority would be owning 51% or more of the stock.

Nope, they don't own a majority of the shares, but they DO own a large amount the voting rights, likely the largest consolidation of voting power. Ford family members' Class B shares control 40 percent of the vote with just 3 percent of the stock.

Companies with different classes of shares are a biatch.

fnorgby: Erp my bad. The majority of Ford's shares are owned by the Ford family. There's a big difference, of course.

Put down the pipe and do a little research http://finance.aol.com/quotes/ford-motor-company/f/nys Ford is not mostly owned by the Ford family. The Ford family has provided leadership for a long time. Big difference.

Anybody who has read my previous posts on Unions knows I think they are outdated and suck.

However in this instance I can kind of understand them. They weren't really losing anything, and any kind of labor commitment will help out the company's stock and future outlook (kind of the same thing).

The only things that strike out to me is the pay freeze for new employees (doesn't effect current employees as far as I know), and a 6 year no-strike period.

Current employees don't really lose anything, but I think they are tired of giving crap away. This is an instance where I think the UAW leadership and Ford was on board, but the average worker was fed up.

Either way, I think Ford is on the right track. They are getting their finances together, and their cars are actually really, really nice right now. In fact they are now on par or better than Toyota and company for the most reliable cars in the industry.

It's true, you can look it up in a second or two.

TheShavingofOccam123: Gosh, the union workers should give up their pay just like the guys on Wall Street have. You know, working for a dollar, no bonuses.

Oh but that's right you have to pay well to retain bankers, brokers and other felons but you don't have to pay well to retain union workers.

Missed that day at MBA school? Paying the Proles employees is bad for the bottom line.

Liberals are too retarded to compete in the real world. Sure, the few remaining janitors left make $80k, but who cares when all of your jobs to got Mexico of the South?

/fark Detroit! It brought its plight upon itself. So did the state of California.

Nemo's Brother: Liberals are too retarded to compete in the real world. Sure, the few remaining janitors left make $80k, but who cares when all of your jobs to got Mexico of the South?

/fark Detroit! It brought its plight upon itself. So did the state of California.

Ehhhh..... Nah! Not worth it. Can't change cement.

GaryPDX: They chose freedom over tyranny. I'm buying all Ford products now on.

Their freedom is a good bit likely to induce several of them to enjoy former employed status and an extra burden on an already overstretched social net.

The Ford proposal, which was supported by the union's leadership, would have frozen the pay of newly hired workers and banned the union from striking in order to demand higher pay or benefits until 2015. Some job classifications also would have been combined, giving Ford more flexibility to shuffle workers around.

In return, Ford promised to pay each worker a $1,000 bonus in March 2010 and to guarantee the assignment of new products to some plants, creating or saving a total of about 7,000 jobs, according to calculations by union leaders.

So... they freeze pay, get a bonus, and don't get to strike on pay for five years. Not benefits or working conditions or anything else that are far more significant than just raw pay. They would retain the freedom to walk away and find a job where such limitations wouldn't apply.

I wonder who will buy products to make CEOs richer when there's no more middle class

That was good thinking buy the workers. After all, it shouldn't take them long to find another job making $28/hr to shoot screws in the side of something.

The UAW tards are out in force. Sigh.

Let me say it again - the UAW has long outlived its usefulness.

TheHopeDiamond: The UAW tards are out in force. Sigh.

Let me say it again - the UAW has long outlived its usefulness.

Riiigggghhhht.

Another idiot who feels that everyone should work for nothing.

Darth_Lukecash: To give up the right to strike for six years is asinine. To ask the new workers to forgo any pay increase for six years is stupid.

a local steel plant had in the most recent contract that the basement wage would be 13.50$ for a current union worker but if the contract was approved any new hire would be hired at 11.00 and not eligible for a raise for 3 years and then only to 12.00....

the contract passed

Fuggin Bizzy: Darth_Lukecash: The Auto Industry's problem has always been bad management.

Wrong. The Auto Industry's problem has always been bad workers. Lazy, shiftless, entitled workers. Management has done a stellar job over the years, considering what they've been given to work with.

came for the posts that imply: the workers deserve more even though the company is in the tank.
left satisfied.

What the Ford workers rejected was the no strike clause in the contract. The reason for this is because at GM pay and benefits are not a strike-able issue in 2011 and any conflicts will be resolved using binding arbitration. The arbiter has the right to reduce wages in line with the industry standard and the workers have to accept the wage cuts. The ford deal was the same and the workers have had time to analyze the GM contract and the see what can happen.
The problem with all this is that the race to the bottom has begun and all the foreign companies can now lower wages and instead of fearing the UAW, the union will agree to match the lower wage.
GM employees are bracing for forced cuts in 2011. The union has turned on its own members and is trying to preserve current benefits for the Boomer generation of auto workers on the backs of all younger workers (1985 and later).
The ford workers now know who the devil is and this was a no confidence vote in the UAW leadership.

By the way these jobs are like typing Mary had a little lamb 10 times a minute for 8 hours a day with 5 minutes per hour break. You get faced with a disciplinary layoff if you make a mistake and you will have a industrial engineer watching you trying to make it 12 times an hour. Production autoworkers work their ass off and are not like the lazy trades at all. They get paid to do the same mind numbing task over and over and comments like Fuggin Bizzy made just show how much of a dumbass he really is.

BOOMER4089:

By the way these jobs are like typing Mary had a little lamb 10 times a minute for 8 hours a day with 5 minutes per hour break. You get faced with a disciplinary layoff if you make a mistake and you will have a industrial engineer watching you trying to make it 12 times an hour. Production autoworkers work their ass off and are not like the lazy trades at all. They get paid to do the same mind numbing task over and over and comments like Fuggin Bizzy made just show how much of a dumbass he really is.

Wow. I didn't reaalize that people actually had to do work for these high salaries! And if they make a mistake, they can get in trouble? Wow. I didn't realize that people who build cars need to actually do the work well.

This is what you get when you demand such high salaries and big benefits, the company expects to get their money's worth.

Some of you must fail so that the rest of us can maintain the same quality of life. If I were some of these guys who get laid off, I would demand all my union fees back.

Now imagine if the Union's management trimmed a little fat from their own bellies. I wonder how many jobs that would save.

Darth_Lukecash: Bimalc

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you, respectfully. Why is it when a company is in trouble, the ones with the lowest wages have to concede? Why doesn't the management offer to cut their salaries, benefits by 50%?
.

Did you every think that maybe it is because there is a lot more salary and benefits paid out to the lower paid people? Which has a bigger impact to a large corporation: a 50% cut to the top 10% or a 10% cut to the 50% of workers?

I am not defending high salaries or big bonuses for executives but you need to cut where the money is

tenpoundsofcheese We understand that and accept it. What we hate is when people call us lazy and unproductive and don't have a clue as to what we do. Where you work at how many people stand around or hide in their office and Fark all day. I have found that these are the same people that accuse everyone of being lazy.

The_Ancient:

Shotty craftsmanship is the reason Ford, GM, and Chrysler cars suck.
p

If they only could build cars as well as you spell, huh?

UAW membership: 1.53 million in 1980, 1 million in 1987, 750,000 in 1996, 500,000 in 2007.

Real wages during this time have increased and so has the size of the labor market.

But unions work!!!

The UAW has significantly better benefits then the white collar in the automotive industry. Congratulations to the UAW for choosing to be selfish and let their fellow workers to get the axe. The amazing thing is that Ford will have to cut deeper into their engineering ranks to make up for these asinine, uneducated, jackasses. Again.

When the union was fighting for worker safety and basic human rights and dignity (bathroom breaks, etc) they had a purpose. Now, not so much.

/The renaissance at Ford was short lived. Killed once again by the UAW.

WittyTagHere: The amazing thing is that Ford will have to cut deeper into their engineering ranks to make up for these asinine, uneducated, jackasses. Again.

And then the unions will blame management for designing and marketing cars that can't compete with the Japanese.

Just did some online digging for "UAW wages" and the like. Sorry I read any of that shiat. Some really obscene crap in there. Fark the UAW.

Occam's Nailfile 2009-10-31 10:14:42 PM
dstrick44: Management has already shown it can't be trusted.

"Many workers interviewed before the vote said they had yet to see benefits they were promised in the March deal even as they were being asked to change their contract again."

They bargain in bad faith.

If 20% of the people in the country are without jobs, and CAN'T AFFORD to buy a car, at what point does a company get to say "you know what, we'd love to keep paying you ass-kicking wages and top notch benefits, but no one can afford to buy the shiat you make right now"?

There are other costs that can be cut other than worker bennies & salaries. Executive packages, to start with. One $4 million Xmas bonus pays a lot of line workers.
Corporate jet, another example.
Maybe hire cheaper engineers. I don't know. Design a car people actually want. That's worked out well for Toyota.
The people building these cars did not ruin the company. It was mis-management, pure & simple.

By the way, I'm unemployed right now. I'm offering my lawn-mowing services for a bargain price of only $65 an hour if anyone is interested.

dstrick44: ...
Corporate jet, another example...

I love this knee-jerk reaction. I sat and talked to a guy who was recently unemployed along with 80 of his colleagues. His story? When the auto execs went to Washington in their corporate jets, everyone became enraged. The response? Shut down the corporate jet program. All of the pilots, technicians, ground support and administrative crews lost their jobs. Effect to the execs? Take a commercial plane.

80 people out of work in one company because the proletariat was pissed off about auto execs taking private planes. Total stupidity.

plywoodjungle: By the way, I'm unemployed right now. I'm offering my lawn-mowing services for a bargain price of only $65 an hour if anyone is interested.

Wonderful- so am I. However I have opted to use the MBA model for getting my lawn done. I am willing to pay 3 cents per patch, for a total of 12 cents. And if you find that unacceptable, let me know. I have a guy from Singapore who will do it for that.

Let's try something. Instead of clawing people back into the mire, lets pull people out of the mire and raise EVERYBODY's wages.

I don't know anything on how automakers determine which plants manufacture which lines, but I wonder if they've ever considered letting the individual plants compete/bid against each other? That would force the Union employees to become more engaged in understanding the true costs of doing business and perhaps stop the Us v. Them mentality.
It would at least be fun to watch.

bimalc: duh? the union OWNS THE COMPETITION. The union actually would do better if Ford went bankrupt and shed thousands of union jobs because then either 1) the union owned firms would profit or 2) in another Obama backed 'bailout' the union would get to own another company.

Whatever good to government intervention has done to stabilize credit markets, industrial policy has been a disaster between buy american non-sense and letting the inmates run the asylum in Detroit.

Yep. I've said it here before: Massive Conflict of Interest. Under a sane American government, Ford would be allowed to dump the UAW, now that they own the competition.

Of course, under a sane American government, the UAW would not have been given shares of the companies they helped destroy.

The_Ancient: Good for Ford, They should close every Union Plant and open non-union ones up

Do that Ford, and I pledge to by a brand new Mustang made at one of those plants, which would be my first American-made car American-made car from an American company. And not a stripper secretary's model either; I mean at least a GT Premium with option packs.

Otherwise, I'll only consider Fords not made by the UAW, which would limit me to something like the Fusion, and then only after my current car no longer runs, which shouldn't be for a long while.

Darth_Lukecash: Why is it when a company is in trouble, the ones with the lowest wages have to concede? Why doesn't the management offer to cut their salaries, benefits by 50%?

Because management people are typically educated, skilled and employable at other places. Union workers are typically doing work that trained monkeys could do.

Hence, the former needs to be part of a collective that tells him what to do and how to think. And the latter is smart & savvy enough to operate solo.

Just wanted to throw my 2 cents in here. There is nothing dumb about this these workers who are "laid off" will get great severance packages in the tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands that can be used for better job training/school. I am a union person myself and I wish our union would get us paid so well to where we would get "laid off". There's a huge difference between being laid of at a non union job (unemployment only) and a union job (severance plus unemployment). Granted being laid of in general sucks but in these peoples cases it only sucks if they have no interest in school/training for a different job.

/DNRTFA
//i always do love the fark union hate threads though
///reminds of the GM person who got laid off and asked Suze Orman what to do with the 100 grand they are getting in severance

Dear Jerk: When management threatens to cut either jobs or compensation, always vote to cut jobs. The jobs will come back when times are good. The benefits won't.

Nice. Exactly why the whole Union mentality is bullshiat. Are you going to volunteer to lose your job? It will come back when times are good. I don't know how you're going to pay your mortgage, feed your family, or get health-care either. You'll be happy knowing your still-employed brethren didn't have to pay an extra $10 per doctor's visit though.

Selfish, self-centered, and pathetic. I guess the slogan "an injury to one is the concern of all" should be changed to "fark the other guy"

It was all fun to bash the working class in America while the FIRE economy was humming along. But that is now in the crapper, and will likely remain so for a decade or more, so now it is harder to insult the working class because...well, they're working!

Buy local. Pay more but it's worth it.

/or buy localish...doesn't matter the brand just where it is made.

Inyego: I don't know anything on how automakers determine which plants manufacture which lines, but I wonder if they've ever considered letting the individual plants compete/bid against each other? That would force the Union employees to become more engaged in understanding the true costs of doing business and perhaps stop the Us v. Them mentality.
It would at least be fun to watch.

Because direct internal product competition between Ford/Mercury/Lincoln, Chevy/Pontiac/Buick/Cadillac, and Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth worked out so well?

I love it how these unions wanted to get their claws on the Japanese companies when they started producing in the U.S. Simple solution, produce in states where the unions don't have a stranglehold on politicians like Alabama and Tennessee. Drives the unions farking nuts, and look at the difference in quality and price of products. UAW, DIAF.

Occam's Nailfile: dstrick44: Management has already shown it can't be trusted.

"Many workers interviewed before the vote said they had yet to see benefits they were promised in the March deal even as they were being asked to change their contract again."

They bargain in bad faith.

If 20% of the people in the country are without jobs, and CAN'T AFFORD to buy a car, at what point does a company get to say "you know what, we'd love to keep paying you ass-kicking wages and top notch benefits, but no one can afford to buy the shiat you make right now"?

At the same point where the Union promises they won't strike but go ahead and do it anyway?

Funny thing, contracts. They actually mean something.

Darth_Lukecash: Bimalc

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you, respectfully. Why is it when a company is in trouble, the ones with the lowest wages have to concede? Why doesn't the management offer to cut their salaries, benefits by 50%?

Because that is not politically correct in conservative land.

If this was the corporate media instead of the internet you can be sure that your very logical question would never even be brought up.

wolvernova: Simple solution, produce in states where the unions don't have a stranglehold on politicians like Alabama and Tennessee.

Yeah real simple. As in stupid.

Southerners Too Stupid for Toyota

http://www.southernstudies.org/2005/08/toyota-reveals-limits-of-great.html

clip -

Last month, Toyota made a decision that didn't get a lot of press, but sent ripples of concern through state houses across the South.

The Japanese auto giant announced that it was going to bypass offers of hundreds of millions of dollars in "recruitment incentives" (corporate subsidies) from several Southern states, and would instead set up shop in Ontario, Canada, which was offering much fewer give-aways.

The decision to head north was an embarassment for Southern states eagerly competing to lure Toyota, on several levels. Not only did they lose a trophy job-creator for their state. But the reason Toyota gave for the move was especially damning:

"The level of the workforce in general is so high that the training program you need for people, even for people who have not worked in a Toyota plant before, is minimal compared to what you have to go through in the southeastern United States," said Gerry Fedchun, president of the Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association, whose members will see increased business with the new plant [...]

Several U.S. states were reportedly prepared to offer more than double [the] subsidy [Southern states were offering]. But Fedchun said much of that extra money would have been eaten away by higher training costs than are necessary for the Woodstock project.

He said Nissan and Honda have encountered difficulties getting new plants up to full production in recent years in Mississippi and Alabama due to an untrained - and often illiterate - workforce.

In Alabama, trainers had to use "pictorials" to teach some illiterate workers how to use high-tech plant equipment.

MyRandomName: This is the most boring fark Union thread ever.

Lets see if I can mix this up:

I work with the UAW daily. Don't give me any of this "They're protecting 40 hour work weeks and weekends." anymore.

Working with union people is the heart and soul of my anti-union mindset. I don't even work in a factory (right now). I work in a test facility. All of the mechanics are union. If a bolt breaks or some wiring (CAN lines, 0 voltage) I need to put in a work order to get it done. A 30 second fix will take 6 hours. If you even look at their tool chest wanting to borrow something you'll get written up. Then you have a grievance on your permanent record AND the union guy gets paid double for that time because you went around him.

Oh and a bit about working with the union in factories. You can't touch anything. For example if you're a process improvement engineer and you need to figure out how to improve a process. You need to stand and watch some guy with only a high school diploma do it. You can't touch anything. See a piece of trash on the ground. Leave it (even if it's a safety hazard) if the floor sweeper sees you, you'll have another grievance because you're "Taking his job away".


We have a project going on "Why is this bolt failing" on a certain product of ours. Turns out that it is over torqued at the factory. So management and the powers that be put out an official decree: No air wrenches on X bolt. The union continues to use them. Legally we can't 'take them away' or go into their tool boxes after they leave. So our bolt continues to fail because Joe Blow is too damn lazy to use a proper torque wrench.


And how is it different in a non-union shop? (Coming from my experience in the same company at a different, non-union plant). It's absolutely farking wonderful. I can walk out on the production line. Grab a tool, use it to see how something is done and then go finish my report/project. One day I had to build a proto type. I was all scared because I had just left a union shop. I was out there all timid until one of the guys spoke up "Oh, we're not union." Then he rolls over a tool chest. Gives me a 10 second demo on how to use the overhead crane. And leaves me. At the end of the day he helps me sweep up my stuff. We BS about the project and it was an absolute joy.

And one of the biggest things I noticed is there's no such thing as "That's not my job." (My friends at Toyota point this out readily). If you have one production line down and one that is short of people. You go work on the one that needs people. In a union shop you get "that's not my job." So the workers from line X sit and play cards while the workers from line Y barely meet demand.

Wonder how Toyota and Honda and BMW do JIT (just in time) delivery? You can take someone off of a slow production line (Say an SUV line) and put them on a small car line in a day of training. Most factories are idiot proofed to the point of you don't even need to know english to put bolt X into nut Y and tighten with the wrench.

That's why union sucks and that's why I think they need to be abolished.

-
But but but you're just jealous they make more money than I do


I don't give a damn what they make. I do my job because I love engineering. I love tinkering, I love working. Every time I have to deal with a union guy I want to grab the bottle of whiskey. It takes them 6 hours to do a 1 hour job. I can'd do the 1 hour job my self because I'm 'replacing' them. Or having it be 35 minutes to closing time and have them ignore your 20 minute request because they want to be first in line to the punch clock.

It's beyond frustrating. My company isn't making the best product they can because some union guy doesn't want to use a torque wrench. When we have evidence and field studies showing that using an air wrench on the bolt causes it to fail.

Think about that the next time your union made car has a rattle or a broken bolt or something goes wrong. Maybe that car was made at 4:59 on a Friday and "Who needs this extra bolt anyway".
-
It's great hearing UAW employees try and spread rumors and stupid falsities about Toyota's non-union plants. I work in a UAW shop and most of what they say sounds like the red scare. "But I hear that Toyota requires you to sign over your first born" "I hear that Toyota only pays them $1.24 an hour". I have friends that work in the Evansville plant. Everyone loves the place. On site pharmacy and health clinic (100% Free), among other things.

Not only that. They can shut down the Tacoma line and switch everyone to making Priuses without having to 'retrain' everyone. If the floor is dirty and you're not doing anything. You sweep the floor. None of this "Well that's not my trained area" bull shiat.

And as an engineer. I LOVE non-union shops. Never ever been turned down use of a tool (I always ask politely.) Hell in the Non-Union shops the guys look interested in what I have to say and help me out.

Nice slant subby.

Funny how these stories don't cover how the management never ever takes pay and benefit cuts yet demand it of union workers during "hard times" to "help" the company survive.