If they went with Everett, where would they put the new lines? The south end of Paine Field is all locked up by Tramco and the Air Guard base. You could shoehorn it into the existing hangers, but that would be a bit of a mess. The area behind Boeing is all developed now, anyways. Intermec and Fluke are in the areas adjacent to the Boeing property. Lots of other light industrial have moved into the other spots.

Then you have transportation issues. I-405 and I-5 are a mess. They basically have to truck parts at night from vendors on the south side of Seattle. That really restricts their schedule.

I recall Boeing talking about Moses Lake as a new assembly locale, but to be honest, I think Boeing is sick of Washington. South Carolina is a right to work state. Washington is a closed shop union state. The IAM is fairly entrenched in Washington, while the guys in South Carolina voted them out. Boeing management and the IAM play about as nicely together as GM and the UAW do.

Charleston is also closer to their Chicago HQ. Makes me wonder if that played any part, too.

WhyteRaven74: Given what they're building, not unreasonable at all.

From what my friends who used to work out on the line have told me, the majority of the work isn't that complicated.

The wiring is fairly complex, and there are some places where fastener tolerances are less than a millimeter, but that's all been validated in the CATIA mock ups, so it is mostly following blue prints.

WhyteRaven74: Dinjiin: the majority of the work isn't that complicated.

I know it's for the most part not complicated work, however you don't want someone doing a slop job because they don't feel they're being paid too poorly to do it right.

How much they get paid doesnt really make a difference. Theres a reason they call it the Lazy-B around here.

WhyteRaven74: you don't want someone doing a slop job because they don't feel they're being paid too poorly to do it right.

Who do you think is going to be more mindful: somebody who can be fired immediately for doing a slop job, or somebody who has the protection of union reps?

I used to work in a closed shop that was represented by the Teamsters. People who should have been fired were not because they got the union involved. Even after the union drama, they continued to fark off, secure in their knowledge that it would be difficult to remove them.

I have no firsthand knowledge if the IAM is like that, but I've heard that the UAW is, and a lot of people say that the IAM is like the UAW.

SEC over Pac10 is really a no-brainer, at least this year. So long as we're not talking about Tennessee.

WhyteRaven74: doesn't mean they won't end up with a unionized shop.

While this is true somehow BMW, Caterpillar, Honda a whole host of other companies are operating in SC with out one.

If you're not forced to join a union and you get to think about it logically, you don't end up in one. There's no "Seniority" no "I spent years at the bottom now I'm getting mine" mentality.

The UAW nuts flier one of our plants every 6 months. Come stand right off of our property and hand out fliers as everyone drives in. And twice a year the janitors have to work extra hard cleaning them up.

When BMW opened their plant in SC, you HAD to have a college degree to even be considered for factory work. They didn't care what it was in, liberal arts, math, science, teaching, as long as it was a college degree.

The shiat storm from this is gonna lead to some interesting political ads.....(this Washington, not that Washington)

South Carolina phallic object trifecta in play? (Pops)

From an unemployed Seattle resident, THANKS A FARKING LOT IAM!

Tourney3p0: SEC over Pac10 is really a no-brainer, at least this year. So long as we're not talking about Tennessee.

counterpoint: the Gamecocks
/hoping for a South Carolina/Oregon State game someday

Who do these strikers think they are? Free men living in a Democratic Republic??


idiot strikers.

Thanks Boeing for staying in the US. Not all Union-extorted businesses have stayed, which truly hurts everyone.

Occam's Chainsaw: Funny how the hand that feeds you won't hesitate to jerk that food away at a whim.

IAM's strike last year was both lengthy and unjustified and they've been doing that a LOT over the past decade or so, I don't blame Boeing for getting out of Dodge as soon as the option was available

The IAM guys here have an incredibly entitled attitude, check out some of their quotes in the Seattle Times

Cubansaltyballs: $40 an hour for laborers... yeah, that sounds reasonable.

MT4's start @ 11.74 and max out about 32 an hour after 6 plus years of service and continued training... but don't let facts get in your way.

It's only airplanes they are building.

WhyteRaven74: Cubansaltyballs: $40 an hour for laborers..

Given what they're building, not unreasonable at all.

Funny, would you pay farm-hands $40 an hour to grow your food for you?

I'd think food is more important than airliners.

Linux_Yes: Who do these strikers think they are? Free men living in a Democratic Republic??


idiot strikers.

They have the right to strike, and employers have a right to hire other people. See how that works?

Cubansaltyballs: : $40 an hour for laborers..

Given what they're building, not unreasonable at all.


They're dumbasses. They should go to Long Beach and work at the docks as a secretary and make over six figures.

WhyteRaven74: Cubansaltyballs: $40 an hour for laborers..

Given what they're building, not unreasonable at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Charleston#Demographics^

"The median income for a household in the city was $29,307, and the median income for a family was $32,868. Males had a median income of $26,681 versus $20,718 for females. The per capita income for the city was $14,361."

They can get away with a lot less than $40 per hour in North Charleston. Just sayin'.

When the workers assembling the planes make as much as the engineers designing them, there is something seriously wrong here. Anyways, putting these things together is made as SIMPLE AS POSSIBLE by the design engineers because you simply can't trust these guys to do a decent job. There is no thinking on the assemblyman's part. Follow the directions!

I worked as a design engineer at a plant building gas turbines for power plants in SC. The engineers there leave nothing to chance with the assemblymen for these multi-million dollar turbines. However, the machinists who help do the prototyping etc, the guys who actually aid in the design process in the first few iterations. They deserve to be paid more because they actually need the ability to think.

So if the laborers, who do the work, are not entitled to big salaries, why are executives who drive desks all day? What makes one job better than others?

Why should an executive be making huge salaries with multi million dollar bonuses?

I'm glad when workers strike because it reminds everyone who does the real work.

For everyone complaining about unions - maybe they do go overboard now and then, but they are the reason we don't work 16 hour days for the privilege of making $4 an hour.

psummrs: When the workers assembling the planes make as much as the engineers designing them, there is something seriously wrong here. Anyways, putting these things together is made as SIMPLE AS POSSIBLE by the design engineers because you simply can't trust these guys to do a decent job. There is no thinking on the assemblyman's part. Follow the directions!

That may be true in the past but one of the main problems on the 787 is the engineers are running the show. It is a total clusterfark. The people with actual skills that are fixing all the mistakes and doing all the rework 12+ hours a day deserve to be paid well. When this bird gets to a point that it can be just "assembled" then you can start a line in SC paying 9 bucks an hour. That is still about 5 years away though.

I have a good friend who works as a supply line manager for Boeing: she earns $40 an hour + benefits. My uncle used to work for Boeing in the early 80's as someone who used to walk up and down the airplanes, cutting off excess thread from the top of the seats.

It was the easiest job in the world, and at the time, paid nearly 8 times minimum wage. I'm sure not much has changed.

/although they're not exactly known the best for job security

BigJake: Occam's Chainsaw: Funny how the hand that feeds you won't hesitate to jerk that food away at a whim.

IAM's strike last year was both lengthy and unjustified and they've been doing that a LOT over the past decade or so, I don't blame Boeing for getting out of Dodge as soon as the option was available

The IAM guys here have an incredibly entitled attitude, check out some of their quotes in the Seattle Times

Yeah, no, aircraft, aren't AK-47s. The craftsmanship developed to support such an industry doesn't just walk in off the street. It is pure wealth. It's not just a vastly superior product, it's time itself. Something that Boeing farming their company out all over the world should be keenly aware of. But the people in management have largely never built anything. They don't appreciate someone being able to finish a spar well, in what amounts to vastly fewer measurements and tool operations. You call it entitlement? In some cases. But largely its people who've elevated their trade to high art. Not a masterpiece once in their life, or once a month, but every single time.

Am I such an artist? No, but my engineering background afforded me not only many opportunities to see many such individuals, and the result of their efforts, but the critical gift of trying my hand at various crafts and see just how wide the gap between idea and reality really is. An agreement on paper is paper. Much like a design. The ability and will to realize that idea is a completely different animal. Something that much of management throughout virutally all established industries have only poorly understood if at all.

Just go to some auction somewhere pick up a welding setup of any kind. Get a book and try your level best to just weld two pieces of the most forgiving steel together so they just hold. Then try to imagine what it takes to do a multipass weld which might have to withstand steam 30 kpsi. Or aluminum. Or worse. It's nice to understand the world, it's natural laws; to use that knowledge to assure an elegant failure that everyone can live with. But it's that art of the craftsman that supports our world. Had Boeing listened to the unions they wouldn't have nearly the problems they have now.

Orgasmatron138: So if the laborers, who do the work, are not entitled to big salaries, why are executives who drive desks all day? What makes one job better than others?

Why should an executive be making huge salaries with multi million dollar bonuses?

I'm glad when workers strike because it reminds everyone who does the real work.

For everyone complaining about unions - maybe they do go overboard now and then, but they are the reason we don't work 16 hour days for the privilege of making $4 an hour.

I don't disagree that mgmt is generally overpaid, but as a fraction of the operating costs they're usually a minority. For example, at my company the CEO [just making an educated guess] makes twice what I make, but there is one of him and many of us. Also they do have to dress up in a suit and dance in front of customers, something I wouldn't want to do.

That said, there is a reasonable time to withhold services for fairer compensation but unions almost universally take it too far. I mean I don't get guaranteed raises every year. My raises [the couple I've had] are tied directly to the performance of the company.

Last winter we had a bus strike in Ottawa, where there are bus drivers that make more per year than I do [and I'm a senior software developer with years of training/schooling and I make a very decent wage]. Tell me again how the union is protecting the interests of a bus driver making more than $100K/yr?

Then look at the nickel mine up north, they get upset when their nickel BONUS goes down as a result of lower demand [recession and all]. They honestly think they should be 100% insulated from reality and keep making more this year than last, regardless of the companies performance.

Orgasmatron138: For everyone complaining about unions - maybe they do go overboard now and then, but they are the reason we don't work 16 hour days for the privilege of making $4 an hour.

Odd, I've never worked a unionized job and have always made more than $4 per hour. Even as a teenager 10 years ago.

I will admit that unionization helped worker conditions during the early industrial revolution, but that was 100 years ago now. Things have changed since then.

Cubansaltyballs: That is why Boeing is having such huge problems right now. Their CEO wants his $2mil bathroom and $50mil bonus, so he outsourced to save few million... now it has cost them a few billion.

It's a wee bit more complicated than that. Aircraft sales are hugely political in most countries. How much the purchasing country gets back from the sale is often an acknowledged consideration. Having some portion of the plane built in India or China can make or break many, many deals in markets with billions of people. It may be a terrible way to build a plane, but those are the rules of the game.

SWOne: psummrs: When the workers assembling the planes make as much as the engineers designing them, there is something seriously wrong here. Anyways, putting these things together is made as SIMPLE AS POSSIBLE by the design engineers because you simply can't trust these guys to do a decent job. There is no thinking on the assemblyman's part. Follow the directions!

That may be true in the past but one of the main problems on the 787 is the engineers are running the show. It is a total clusterfark. The people with actual skills that are fixing all the mistakes and doing all the rework 12+ hours a day deserve to be paid well. When this bird gets to a point that it can be just "assembled" then you can start a line in SC paying 9 bucks an hour. That is still about 5 years away though.

I think you are entirely right. The workers in WA are more skilled in these areas, and are who I talked about as deserving the pay. The actually guys who build the first iterations, which these are guys, deserve the money to work out the design issues, i.e. I can't fit a wrench there to tighten that bolt.

Orgasmatron138: So if the laborers, who do the work, are not entitled to big salaries, why are executives who drive desks all day? What makes one job better than others?

Why should an executive be making huge salaries with multi million dollar bonuses?

I'm glad when workers strike because it reminds everyone who does the real work.

For everyone complaining about unions - maybe they do go overboard now and then, but they are the reason we don't work 16 hour days for the privilege of making $4 an hour.

That union laborer is only in charge of his job.

As CEO, I might be in charge of 300,000 jobs. The scope and responsibility is about fifteen orders of magnitude larger, and naturally so is the pay.

why yes, I do run a union shop. nobody does it willingly. the idea of being in business as a business owner, is to make money. the union thinks im in business to provide jobs for union members.

Orgasmatron138: for the privilege of making $4 an hour.

The first 2 or 3 jobs I had paid less than that, but more than minimum wage. I'm sure there are plenty of oldsters here to beat that, but I'm under 40. I don't think unions pushed the minimum up over the last 20 years or so.

Continue to flame on union employees. Most of them are actually working right now, as opposed to, you know, posting on news aggregator sites.

This is relevant to my interests...

/popcorn

Cubansaltyballs: Ball of Confusion: the union thinks im in business to provide jobs for union members.

Aren't you?

I do not think he runs a public school system.

This is all well and good until Boeing finds out that nobody in the South is literate, forcing a move up North.

As long as they don't build it in Greenville I'm fine. I don't want a plane held together with duct tape and prayers.