doublesecretprobation: Dancin_In_Anson: Shunning US ideas an influence eh?

TFA is about ecuador and bolivia, NOT brazil.

Misleading headline then?

Correa's work in Ecuador is amazing. I would have never thought such turnaround possible when I first visited in 2001. The past 3 times I have been since his election I see the standards of living getting better.

It really is a shame that the US is so tied up with the Corporate Overlords that don't really understand that money is everything.

all the good names are gone: Take away the money being pumped in by cocaine... What do they have left?

Don't forget about their oil and natural gas exports. It is easy to have a massively socialist government when you have billions in petroleum profits there to subsidize them. Just look at Norway.

That said, good for them. If they do it right, they can bring their standard of living and education systems up to first world standards so that when the oil and gas does run out, they'll have a diversified economy.

Hopefully, they won't follow Venezuela's mistakes. That country is going to tank hard after Chavez finishes destroying their petroleum infrastructure.

Dancin_In_Anson: doublesecretprobation: your willful ignorance no longer amazes me.

What the fark are you talking about?

but he is so good at it

Dancin_In_Anson: And what the fark are you talking about?

Possibly your linking to an article about Brazil when in spite of dissemblingmitter's headline, the story was not about South America in general but Ecuador and Bolivia in particular.

Then again, those against you have probably never seen lovely Anson. ;~)

all the good names are gone: Take away the money being pumped in by cocaine... What do they have left?

Take away all the coke they pump into this country, and what do we have left?

So, Bolivia is doing pretty well because it basically stole all the equipment the foreign companies built to create a hydrocarbon industry thru nationalization. Then the price of hydrocarbons shot thru the roof which has created a boom (permanent or temporary--who knows). Sounds similar to Venezuela. Check back in a few years and see if the equipment isn't falling apart and terribly inefficient. I'm not knocking Bolivia for this, they clearly needed to shakeup a system that was holding them back, but it sounds like we may be declaring long-term victory, when it only seems like "right place, right time" at the moment.

wee beastie: So, Bolivia is doing pretty well because it basically stole all the equipment the foreign companies built to create a hydrocarbon industry thru nationalization. Then the price of hydrocarbons shot thru the roof which has created a boom (permanent or temporary--who knows). Sounds similar to Venezuela. Check back in a few years and see if the equipment isn't falling apart and terribly inefficient. I'm not knocking Bolivia for this, they clearly needed to shakeup a system that was holding them back, but it sounds like we may be declaring long-term victory, when it only seems like "right place, right time" at the moment.

Poor oil companies, having things stolen from them instead of being the ones doing the stealing.
My heart bleeds for them.

Call me when it is safe to walk the streets down there and I will consider the boom valid. Till then I call shenanigans!

unyon: If someone can give me one example- one single example- of Friedman economics being successful long term (for everyone, not just the elite), then I'll listen.

well you could look at the examples he cited, specifically the US in the early 20th century and Japan during the Meji restoration period.

ShawnDoc: They nationalized oil production. This has nothing to do with shunning US ideas/influences, this is all about rising oil profits, and the fact those profits now go directly to the government and are distributed to the people. So, like Alaska.

THIS.

Plus, Ecuador skipped out on debt payments. Hey, if I could borrow billions of dollars and not pay it back, my balance sheet would look great, too!

tzzhc4: Call me when it is safe to walk the streets down there and I will consider the boom valid.

I returned from a huge travel & tourism conference in Ecuador just 6 months ago. It was very safe to be out and about. They even have a special division of the police force dedicated specifically to travelers and tourism.

unyon: If someone can give me one example- one single example- of Friedman economics being successful long term (for everyone, not just the elite), then I'll listen.

also hong kong

Dancin_In_Anson: Hong Kong.

blargh you beat me to it

doomfistinc: wee beastie: So, Bolivia is doing pretty well because it basically stole all the equipment the foreign companies built to create a hydrocarbon industry thru nationalization. Then the price of hydrocarbons shot thru the roof which has created a boom (permanent or temporary--who knows). Sounds similar to Venezuela. Check back in a few years and see if the equipment isn't falling apart and terribly inefficient. I'm not knocking Bolivia for this, they clearly needed to shakeup a system that was holding them back, but it sounds like we may be declaring long-term victory, when it only seems like "right place, right time" at the moment.

Poor oil companies, having things stolen from them instead of being the ones doing the stealing.
My heart bleeds for them.

My point
---------------
Your head

I was not in any way suggesting that the industries were or were not raping the country. I was simply stating that Bolivia did not develop those resources and has only obtained the upside after nationalizing. Of course Bolivia stands to gain when they don't need to pay that interest on the capital necessary to build these facilities, especially given the spike in oil prices.

Bukharin: They even have a special division of the police force dedicated specifically to travelers and tourism.

Hahahaha, kinda proves my point doesn't it?

Bolivia also has some of the world highest concentrations of lithium (and easy to extract too). They're set for a major boom as battery use grows.

Right now, it would be hard to fark up Bolivia's economy.

tzzhc4: Hahahaha, kinda proves my point doesn't it?

No. Your point was that it is not safe.
My point is that it is.

l0wk3y: They're set for a major boom as battery use grows.

or if Courtney Love has another bout of clinical depression.

Misleading headline is misleading.

filth: So, you clean up the public sector and give people access to credit (which are sort of American ideas), and things get better. That doesn't mean that nationalizing your energy industry is a good idea.

I agree. But leaving your energy industry under foreign control isnt really a good idea either. It's like having taxation without representation.

It's amazing how productive and efficient countries without labor laws can appear, compared to the U.S.

tzzhc4: Bukharin: They even have a special division of the police force dedicated specifically to travelers and tourism.

Hahahaha, kinda proves my point doesn't it?

Hardly, almost every Latin American nation has this, its mainly to ensure that visitors that dont speak Spanish/portugese/french/creole can still report crimes. They are specially trained and operate in most of the big tourist areas.

On a side note, Ecuador has almost always been safe, I lived there for five years (left two years ago), got mugged zero times, and I would walk home drunk at 2 in the morning. The only real dangerous area is south Quito, but if you dont live there you really have no business being there. The beach city Guyaquil is another matter, its sort of like living in a mixed lower and middle class neighborhood, but only because it has so many immigrants who for quick money work for the drug trade or rob people. However, I never got mugged there either, and I stand out like a sore thumb, im white and compared to about 70% of the population relatively tall (and im only 5'11). Like everyplace its a matter of being smart, but even when I was an idiot like walking a mile or two home from the bar, I never had problems.

Quito is a great place, I hope there is more investment so I can go back.

doomfistinc: Poor oil companies, having things stolen from them instead of being the ones doing the stealing.
My heart bleeds for them.

In what industry sector do you work? Or am I making assumptions about your employment status that I aught not?

wee beastie: doomfistinc: wee beastie: So, Bolivia is doing pretty well because it basically stole all the equipment the foreign companies built to create a hydrocarbon industry thru nationalization. Then the price of hydrocarbons shot thru the roof which has created a boom (permanent or temporary--who knows). Sounds similar to Venezuela. Check back in a few years and see if the equipment isn't falling apart and terribly inefficient. I'm not knocking Bolivia for this, they clearly needed to shakeup a system that was holding them back, but it sounds like we may be declaring long-term victory, when it only seems like "right place, right time" at the moment.

Poor oil companies, having things stolen from them instead of being the ones doing the stealing.
My heart bleeds for them.

My point
---------------
Your head

I was not in any way suggesting that the industries were or were not raping the country. I was simply stating that Bolivia did not develop those resources and has only obtained the upside after nationalizing. Of course Bolivia stands to gain when they don't need to pay that interest on the capital necessary to build these facilities, especially given the spike in oil prices.

I never said that you didn't think oil companies were raping 3rd world countries. All I said was that I don't give a crap if anyone steals from an oil company.
Do not care.
One iota.
They still make billions in profits each year, and every time a country nationalizes and steals their equipment I just laugh due to that simple fact.

hp6sa: ShawnDoc: They nationalized oil production. This has nothing to do with shunning US ideas/influences, this is all about rising oil profits, and the fact those profits now go directly to the government and are distributed to the people. So, like Alaska.

THIS.

Plus, Ecuador skipped out on debt payments. Hey, if I could borrow billions of dollars and not pay it back, my balance sheet would look great, too!

Step 1. Borrow billions, not pay it back, and "re-nationalize" companies and infrastructure worth billions more

Step 2... hell who needs a step 2?!??!? You've already profited.


It will be MUCH more interesting to see if they can keep the ball rolling in future years. I'm no fan of big oil but they knew how to maintain and expand their infrastructure - these efforts at "re-nationalization" work great until things start to break.

doomfistinc: They still make billions in profits each year, and every time a country nationalizes and steals their equipment I just laugh due to that simple fact.

Envy is ugly.

I don't understand why foreign companies and investors still do business with the POS countries who blatantly steal their assets.

Why should an oil company go in to develop a field when in all likelihood some populist govt will expropriate (steal) it after its developed. Why would an investor lend money to Ecuador when they weaseled out of $3.5billion in previous debt.

I guess there are enough countries to invest in and potential returns are so lucrative that these countries can somehow get capital.

I'm sure if Ecuador and Bolivia are languishing in 10 years due to a lack of foreign capital they'll be crawling back to the IMF. And this author will likely disparage the greedy capitalist world for turning its back on such poor countries.

Well it is amazing what kind of recovery you can have when the CIA (which has been busy the last 8 years hunting terrorists) isn't over throwing and assassinating your elected leaders.

GoldSpider: doomfistinc: They still make billions in profits each year, and every time a country nationalizes and steals their equipment I just laugh due to that simple fact.



Envy is ugly.

More likely to be schadenfreude based on the what goes round comes round principal.

Debeo Summa Credo: I don't understand why foreign companies and investors still do business with the POS countries who blatantly steal their assets.

That the assets in question are those fungible molecules is why. If the chief export of these two countries was grapefruit, they'd be SOL.

Roja Herring: Debeo Summa Credo: I don't understand why foreign companies and investors still do business with the POS countries who blatantly steal their assets.

You've got to go where the resources are located.

Yeah, plus I'm gonna guess these resource companies have nationalization factored into their projections. At the very least I suspect they have some form of insurance just in case Republica Banana changes governments and tells the gringos to GTFO.

Roja Herring: Debeo Summa Credo: I don't understand why foreign companies and investors still do business with the POS countries who blatantly steal their assets.

You've got to go where the resources are located.

Yeah, but the 'expropriation' kind of takes a bite out of your expected returns, doesn't it. I suspect oil companies demand greater concessions from investee countries now than they would have absent the risk of expropriation.

So. Bolivia stealing costs, say, Brazil money. Sure, Brazil is a different country but how does a potential investor know some future government might not mimic Bolivia (and Ecuador, and Argentina, and Venezuela). Companies might require a better offer to develop fields than they would if they were sure their investment wouldn't be stolen.

Debeo Summa Credo: I don't understand why foreign companies and investors still do business with the POS countries who blatantly steal their assets.

It's either go where the petroleum resources are, or nowhere. And a lot of the still-unexploited resources in relatively stable, not-likely-to-nationalize countries are expensive and/or difficult (deep sea drilling, oil shale, that sort of thing).

Much of what's out known is either declining (like the Ghawar field), in relatively unsafe places (like Iraq, which ranks much higher in reserves than it does in production or refining c/o long-term neglect, security issues and corruption), in relatively corrupt and somewhat unstable places (like Nigeria), or in areas where the the country is stable but aware of its power and possibly going to force majority-ownership or total control by a government-aligned company (like Russia, Venezuela, Bolivia, et al).