HeadLever: akula: Many others too.

Yep, but rarely does it escalate to the point of this debacle. Spending a little time in the pen is one thing, but having your wife killed by a goverment sniper is a little more.

And your son. The dog, too.

From what I've read about Randy Weaver before the incident, he doesn't seem like a guy whom I would have chosen for a friend, but he sure got screwed over in a first class method. Even if you don't like the guy, you have to admit that his case is a case study in how the government is NOT your friend.

erewhon: Oh, I don't know, they'd be great for certain types of crime, just not strong-arm robbery.

Well, my buddy has an Armalite AR-50 in the shop, and you could sure beat the living fark out of somebody with it, but you'd still need some good muscles to get a good swing with the thing.

If a criminal managed to come by one legally, he'd probably make more by selling it than by committing crimes with it. If he came by one illegally, well, the gun laws didn't work then anyway, so any consideration of bans is kind of stupid.

Crap, that should be "his" son, not "your" son.

gorgor: http://tinyurl.com/yftwo9m

503 error.

HeadLever: akula: From what I've read about Randy Weaver before the incident, he doesn't seem like a guy whom I would have chosen for a friend, but he sure got screwed over in a first class method. Even if you don't like the guy, you have to admit that his case is a case study in how the government is NOT your friend.

Agreed. Randy is a dumbass of the highest order, but somehow the bright minds of the Janet Reno Justice Department suceeded in thier quest of oneupmanship. Sadly, it cost the lives of US Citizens.

The shocking thing is that it wasn't Janet Reno's Justice Department. Ruby Ridge happened in August 1992, about five months before Clinton took office. This one was on George H. W. Bush and his merry men- he wasn't much a friend to gun owners either. William Pelham Barr was the US Attorney General at the time.

erewhon: You're still thinking CQB, which is not the primary mission for an M82. I'd list the sorts of things I'd do with them if I were out to cause mischief, but I'm sure if you think a bit, you could come up with some.

True, but general mayhem and destruction isn't usually the desire of most criminals. They want to profit in some manner and get away to enjoy it.

EdNortonsTwin: I like the gun-fu in this thread.

What do you guys think of the .40 round? Popular with law enforcement now, yea?

How about it's use in a long gun?

The one issue with using pistol cartridges in a long gun is that since you're going to be hauling around something with the size and weight of a rifle anyway, you might as well have it fire a rifle cartridge. There aren't that many pistol caliber carbines out there- the two that jump immediately to mind are the Hi Point and the Beretta CX4, which by all reports are quite fun and decent firearms. They're even fine for defense, but again, if you're going to be using something that big, there's stuff that's far more effective that's the same size. Fine if you want to give it a go for your own reasons though (ammo availability or you just don't want to stock yet another caliber).

firefly212: From the law enforcement, concealability.

I'm not sold that it's that big a problem. There aren't that many ways to conceal an AR or AK pistol, even with only a 7 inch barrel- you'd need to be wearing a wizard robe or something similar in order to avoid printing really badly, and some guy in a muumuu is either no threat due to his 500lb. size or he's going to get eyeballed pretty hard by the cops anyway.

Like I said, it isn't so much the concealability for shorter barrels but maneuverability, and even then I wouldn't bother with an AR with less than a 11.5" barrel; if that's too big to move around, you're talking pistol time anyway. Most folks with the really short barrel SBRs or pistol AR/AKs aren't using them for defense; for that kind of thing you WANT a buttstock. You could conceivably use a folding stock on an AK, but still; they aren't that easy to hide.

HeadLever: yakmans_dad: 98% of all gun nuts blame Clinton for Ruby Ridge.

Wait, are you saying Clinton personally or the Clinton Administration?

Clinton bears some blame in this as well, but he was not the one that made the decision to shoot on sight. Whatever blame the goverment bears in this debacle is at the hands of the Clinton Administration.

He's saying that Clinton wasn't even elected yet, let alone in the White House. Ruby Ridge happened in August 1992, before the presidential election that Clinton won. I posted this earlier- George Herbert Walker Bush was the President at the time. He was still no great friend to gun owners, but Clinton had absolutely nothing to do with Ruby Ridge outside of refusing to investigate/prosecute the agents involved. You CAN blame him for allowing that same kind of culture to persist in the Justice Department, ultimately to peak at Waco. But Clinton had less than nothing to do with how things went down with Weaver's family.

Oznog: Obama wants us to all be limited to min 52" long guns.

It will make us all safer.

Hey, I for one can appreciate all men having 52" guns at all times. Not so sure I'd feel "safer", but I'd sure be happier.

JesseL: SSpiffy: //writes laws for a living

That that's even possible is one of the things that can really fark up a country.

What, did you think laws just sort of appeared from the ether? Some overpaid law school graduate has to sit there and draft the things and write them down so committees and congressional members have something to read and argue over.

Where did you think all that verbiage came from?