Army officials say that when properly cleaned and maintained, the M4 is a quality weapon that can pump out more than 3,000 rounds before any failures occur.


And of course there is never any trouble keeping them properly cleaned and maintained in a FARKING SANDSTORM.

PacManDreaming: There's a reason 150,000,000+ AK-47s have been made.

Yup.

If M4, especially after one tour, can fire 3000 rounds, then I can take on a 1970s Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee at the same time. I call corruption shenanigans.
/former armorer

2wheeljunkie: PacManDreaming: There's a reason 150,000,000+ AK-47s have been made.

Yup.

I remember hearing a story on the History Channel about how the Viet Cong would bury AK-47s in preparation for an ambush. They'd dig 'em up, kick open the bolt and start firing.

I'm not a firearms aficionado by any means, but I know a good design when I see it.

"Standard issue US weapon is failing at the worst possible times in combat. This is not a repeat from 1969"

Nor is it a repeat from 1917...

-- Of all the weapons in the vast soviet arsenal, nothing was more profitable than Avtomat Kalashnikova model of 1947. More commonly known as the AK-47, or Kalashnikov. It's the world's most popular assault rifle. A weapon all fighters love. An elegantly simple 9 pound amalgamation of forged steel and plywood. It doesn't break, jam, or overheat. It'll shoot whether it's covered in mud or filled with sand. It's so easy, even a child can use it; and they do. The Soviets put the gun on a coin. Mozambique put it on their flag. Since the end of the Cold War, the Kalashnikov has become the Russian people's greatest export. After that comes vodka, caviar, and suicidal novelists. One thing is for sure, no one was lining up to buy their cars.

-- AK-47, The very best there is when you absolutely got to kill everyone in the room, accept no substitutes.

Part of Obama's Nobel 'Peace' plan.

The Bible?

Ennuipoet: The M16/4 is a fine weapon if you are fighting in a temperate climate, average precipitation and plenty of time of break it down and clean it after firing. So, the obvious solution is to declare war on Indiana where the weapons would perform at peak efficiency.

In other words, Western Europe?

considering the U.S. is using basically the same rifle it was in 1969 this is a repeat.

scottydoesntknow: The AK is the most durable, reliable, and one of the strongest assault rifles available. ... The only benefit to the M4 is it can have peripheral attachments added easily and it has more controlled full auto.

Out of curiosity, have you ever tried the AK-74? The one most Americans think is a typo but Ivan's been using for 35 years?

VictoryCabal: -- Of all the weapons in the vast soviet arsenal, nothing was more profitable than Avtomat Kalashnikova model of 1947. More commonly known as the AK-47, or Kalashnikov. It's the world's most popular assault rifle. A weapon all fighters love. An elegantly simple 9 pound amalgamation of forged steel and plywood. It doesn't break, jam, or overheat. It'll shoot whether it's covered in mud or filled with sand. It's so easy, even a child can use it; and they do. The Soviets put the gun on a coin. Mozambique put it on their flag. Since the end of the Cold War, the Kalashnikov has become the Russian people's greatest export. After that comes vodka, caviar, and suicidal novelists. One thing is for sure, no one was lining up to buy their cars.

-- AK-47, The very best there is when you absolutely got to kill everyone in the room, accept no substitutes.

This. Why the Pentagon still insists on using Stoner-based design is beyond me.

You got to war with the weapons you have...

/runs away

SilentStrider: Ennuipoet: So, the obvious solution is to declare war on Indiana where the weapons would perform at peak efficiency.

I'm all for this. What have those bastards done for us anyway?

Cow tipping?.

scottydoesntknow: Give what a rest? The AK is the most durable, reliable, and one of the strongest assault rifles available. The M-4 is it's idiot-savant brother. It can get the job done with the right conditions, but when killin needs to happen in any climate/surroundings, the AK will always come out ahead.

The only benefit to the M4 is it can have peripheral attachments added easily and it has more controlled full auto.

im no expert, but I've heard that the US weaponry is far, far more accurate than the AK and you can consistently hit things with a m4 or m16 that are much farther away than you could with the AK.

ScottMpls: This. Why the Pentagon still insists on using Stoner-based design is beyond me.

Well they should have known, leaving the job up to stoners.

scottydoesntknow: baka-san: PacManDreaming: There's a reason 150,000,000+ AK-47s have been made.

Oh give it a rest already.

Give what a rest? The AK is the most durable, reliable, and one of the strongest assault rifles available. The M-4 is it's idiot-savant brother. It can get the job done with the right conditions, but when killin needs to happen in any climate/surroundings, the AK will always come out ahead.

The only benefit to the M4 is it can have peripheral attachments added easily and it has more controlled full auto.

You can't hit the broad side of a barn with an AK from 300 yards away.

Well they should have known, leaving the job up to stoners.

I've met several airborne guys who claim their whole unit does jumps tripping on acid.

/drugs r bad. mmmk?

Whodat?: Ennuipoet: The M16/4 is a fine weapon if you are fighting in a temperate climate, average precipitation and plenty of time of break it down and clean it after firing. So, the obvious solution is to declare war on Indiana where the weapons would perform at peak efficiency.

In other words, Western Europe?

Bingo. Our soldiers are using outdated, Cold War era guns in a modern Mid-East combat. Unlike the rest of the Western world, which has been developing new guns for modern combat, we're stuck with old tech.

FTA: "I had shot about 12 magazines by this point already and it had only been about a half hour or so into the fight. I couldn't charge my weapon and put another round in because it was too hot, so I got mad and threw my weapon down."

So, spray and pray, treating an assault rifle like a machine gun (hint, they're not the same), and it's overheating. Real machine guns have easily replaceable barrels because of just this issue. Sounds like a problem with the rifle. Yeah, sure.

It is farking pathetic that soldiers need to order P-Mags from MidwayUSA in order to better ensure their weapon will work when they need it to work.

You know what battle rifle doesn't need constant cleaning to function?

CruiserTwelve: Headline: Standard issue US weapon is failing at the worst possible times in combat.

There are better times for a weapon to fail during combat?

Yes after your target is dead.

Sir Charles: scottydoesntknow: Give what a rest? The AK is the most durable, reliable, and one of the strongest assault rifles available. The M-4 is it's idiot-savant brother. It can get the job done with the right conditions, but when killin needs to happen in any climate/surroundings, the AK will always come out ahead.

The only benefit to the M4 is it can have peripheral attachments added easily and it has more controlled full auto.

im no expert, but I've heard that the US weaponry is far, far more accurate than the AK and you can consistently hit things with a m4 or m16 that are much farther away than you could with the AK.

that only matters when the damn thing works.

Well when most of your budget is tied up in theft, new Escalades and whores for congress and dope and bribes for CEOs, what do you expect?

Something that does what it should?

Do we even MAKE them here?

It's going to overheat after 12 mags. If we made them water cooled they'd be too heavy.

They should by guns from the Sons of Anarchy.

scottydoesntknow: baka-san: PacManDreaming: There's a reason 150,000,000+ AK-47s have been made.

Oh give it a rest already.

Give what a rest? The AK is the most durable, reliable, and one of the strongest assault rifles available. The M-4 is it's idiot-savant brother. It can get the job done with the right conditions, but when killin needs to happen in any climate/surroundings, the AK will always come out ahead.

The only benefit to the M4 is it can have peripheral attachments added easily and it has more controlled full auto.

That's what I keep hearing.

Question - how much do both guns (the M whatever and the AK whatever) cost? What is the feasability of handing out a few AKs as backup rifles?

Replace it with the IMI Tavor TAR-21 (or clone?) Oh yeah, too costly probably.

I'm an Egyptian!: Properly maintained and cleaned, huh? How about those times when you don't have the opportunity to clean and maintain those weapons? Sorry, but if I'm out on mission, the last thing I want to worry about is cleaning my weapon while out on that mission. It's nice if you have perfect conditions, but sorry, combat is less than perfect. It's part of the reason SF units are switching to the HK 429. The thing doesn't die when you need it.

I don't have the link, but the Army Times recently did an article comparing the M4, the SCAR, the HK 429 and something else. I lousy conditions, the M4 came in dead last. Yeah, the one that came in dead last is the weapon I want.

Might you be referring to the H&K 416?
Link (new window)
Saw it on Future Weapons... Mac was probably walking around with an erection for the better part of the segment.
Link (new window)

It's stupid that they've got a battle rifle that needs almost daily maintenance to keep functioning. The M1 Garand in WW2 was not anywhere near as finicky and it was good that it wasn't as many times it was not possible to stop and clean your rifle as to do so would have been suicidal. Reliability has to be the first, second, and third design goal of any battle rifle.

It's stupid that this nation can fund worthless crap like SDI/Star Wars yet we can't give our soldiers the best rifle possible.

Awesome T-Shirt: scottydoesntknow: baka-san: PacManDreaming: There's a reason 150,000,000+ AK-47s have been made.

Oh give it a rest already.

Give what a rest? The AK is the most durable, reliable, and one of the strongest assault rifles available. The M-4 is it's idiot-savant brother. It can get the job done with the right conditions, but when killin needs to happen in any climate/surroundings, the AK will always come out ahead.

The only benefit to the M4 is it can have peripheral attachments added easily and it has more controlled full auto.

You can't hit the broad side of a barn with an AK from 300 yards away.

Well, I couldn't speak about the stress of combat and whatnot, or under full auto fire, but my WASR 10 will put 30 rounds in a 3'X3' steel plate at 300 yards with iron sights and the least expensive ammo that I can find. And the front sight is visibly twisted to one side. And the rifling is getting worn down from use.

So, I'd imagine that yes, you could in fact hit the broadside of a barn with an AK at 300 yards.

Unless the AK was jammed.

Now, of course, you're not going to put a 1" group on a paper plate at that distance with an AK, unless it was very well tuned and fired a different round than the 7.62X39.

Hmm. It seems like the soldier was exceeding the maximum sustained rate of fire for his M4. It's no surprise that it overheated and failed. Any rifle would be likely to overheat and fail if one ran through 12 magazines that quickly.

Similarly, 600 rounds out of an M249 isn't bad without changing the barrels. I was always under the impression that barrels needed to be changed out every 200-300 rounds to cool.

The M16/M4 design is quite good, but like any other firearm, one must be careful not to overheat it. The AK has similar issues when overheated.