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(Talking Points Memo)   On today's Governing With Insane People: Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-TX) is debating what a hate crime is, when the wheels fall off and he starts talking about bestiality, sex with corpses and of course voting for a black man. Let's watch   (tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 277
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3907 clicks; posted to Politics » on 08 Oct 2009 at 1:17 PM (4 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2009-10-08 01:24:19 PM
There's a reason we have a police force and don't rely on vigilante justice. Even if you know someone is a criminal, if there are no lives in danger, you call the police and DON'T try to apprehend the criminal.
 
2009-10-08 01:24:23 PM
fernt: Apparently you cannot commit a hate crime against a member of the majority group.

I believe that's what they're trying to capture.
 
2009-10-08 01:24:31 PM
SkinnyHead: Isn't a sexual orientation toward children (pedophilia) a "sexual orientation"?

Yes, but it is an illegal one because one of the parties does not have the mental or emotional maturity to consent under the law.

/Isn't sophistry a poor excuse for wisdom? Why, yes, yes it is.
 
2009-10-08 01:25:02 PM
Obdicut: verbal_jizm: Hve you recently become less subtle? I can't believe I fell for your schtick before.

He's gotten sloppy, that's for sure:


His cover was blown. It ruined his character that he worked so hard to make. Now no one will argue with him like before anymore. At this point, to him, why even bother anymore? Similar to why skookum is almost gone. The joke is over, the story has ended, no more reason for acting.

Funny though: calling him every insult in book (which is his own damn fault for being called that) = he keeps chugging along

Pointing out how he's an alt = ZOMG, he insta-ignores you.
 
2009-10-08 01:25:18 PM
SkinnyHead: cameroncrazy1984: No, that's a crime. Once again we'll go real slowly for you: Children cannot consent. Two adults can.

Children can consent. The idea that children cannot consent is a legal fiction.

And "consent" is not a part of the definition of orientation. A sexual orientation toward children exists whether or not the child consents.


Unless children are some sort of third gender I wasn't aware of, it's not an orientation. There are but three orientations: Bisexual, heterosexual, and homosexual.

Everything else is a fetish.

The Gopper in the article made a faulty argument: He didn't take into account consent. The reason necro, bestiality, and pedophilia are illegal is that those subjects cannot legally consent to sexual activity.
 
2009-10-08 01:25:20 PM
12349876: There's a reason we have a police force and don't rely on vigilante justice. Even if you know someone is a criminal, if there are no lives in danger, you call the police and DON'T try to apprehend the criminal.

... because if you do, the police will show up, shoot you in the back several times, drag you by the leg in front of your children, and then throw you on the hood of a cruiser and drive down the street for kicks.
 
2009-10-08 01:26:17 PM
fernt: That's easy:

Three black guys kill a white guy because they hate white guys:
- not a hate crime - it's America's fault because of slavery

Three white guys kill a black guy because they hate black guys:
- hate crime - obviously

Apparently you cannot commit a hate crime against a white person unless they're a homosexual.


This is not true, put on your damn google boots and go out there and educate yourself. I realize it's easier to play the victim, but you owe it to yourself to know better.
 
2009-10-08 01:26:47 PM
12349876: There's a reason we have a police force and don't rely on vigilante justice. Even if you know someone is a criminal, if there are no lives in danger, you call the police and DON'T try to apprehend the criminal.

Just realized the point of this post might not be clear, the point is that if you kill someone because they're a pedophile, you're committing a hate crime because you are engaging in vigilante justice against a specific group of people (unless it's self defense, of course).
 
2009-10-08 01:27:06 PM
Antimatter: The Gopper in the article made a faulty argument: He didn't take into account consent.

The reason people like him and SkinnyHead ignore consent is because they believe that consent is irrelevant. This is the same thinking that had spousal rape legal until the 1990s.
 
2009-10-08 01:28:07 PM
12349876: Just realized the point of this post might not be clear, the point is that if you kill someone because they're a pedophile, you're committing a hate crime because you are engaging in vigilante justice against a specific group of people (unless it's self defense, of course).

Well, kinda, yeah. You can't kill someone just because they have a sexual fetish. Now, if they act on that fetish, that's a different matter, but killing someone for a thoughtcrime they can't control?
 
2009-10-08 01:28:25 PM
SkinnyHead: If you favor giving legal protection based on "sexual orientation," then you're the one who wants to give legal protection to those who have a sexual orientation toward children (i.e., pedophiles.)

Yes, that's an orientation. Just like people who prefer redheads, or nice butts, or bewbs.

Or not, and you're a moron. But definitely one of the two.
 
2009-10-08 01:28:27 PM
oldebayer: I used to get a kick out of watching Jack Valenti defend the movie ratings system. Almost every time some one asked him "Where do you draw the line?" he'd start jabbering away about bestiality and necrophilia. I think he was obsessed with those subjects.

It does seem that way much of the time.
 
2009-10-08 01:28:37 PM
SkinnyHead: If it was wrong, you would be able to state your reasons why you think it is wrong, rather than just make noises.

How about you start with the farking dictionary, troll-boy, rather than moving the goalposts and pulling a new definition of the term out of your ass and asking others to say why it's wrong?

The bottom line is it's wrong to say "predophia is a sexual orientation" for the same reason it's wrong to say "Mexican is a religion"--because it simply doesn't comply with the definition of the term (or, at least, the definition accepted by those who are not retarded).

And this is the last time in this thread I will waste time responding to your trolling, you shiathead.
 
2009-10-08 01:29:04 PM
The wheels fall of when you put an (R) after your name, subby.
 
2009-10-08 01:29:21 PM
Theaetetus: 12349876: There's a reason we have a police force and don't rely on vigilante justice. Even if you know someone is a criminal, if there are no lives in danger, you call the police and DON'T try to apprehend the criminal.

... because if you do, the police will show up, shoot you in the back several times, drag you by the leg in front of your children, and then throw you on the hood of a cruiser and drive down the street for kicks.


One bad sheep does not represent the flock. And it's still better than vigilante justice.
 
2009-10-08 01:29:46 PM
Look, hate crime laws are stupid. If you kill someone because they owe you money that doesn't make them LESS DEAD then if you kill someone because they are black, white, asian, gay, a furry, jewish, or arabic.

We have seriously farked up laws in this country. Legalize and decriminalize all narcotics. Execute murders and rapists. Put people who commit a crime with a handgun in jail for 20 years. Bring back public humiliation.
 
2009-10-08 01:30:02 PM
12349876: One bad sheep does not represent the flock.

No, but the other officers at the scene agreeing to cover for him and dispose of evidence do represent the flock.
 
2009-10-08 01:30:48 PM
Theaetetus: 12349876: One bad sheep does not represent the flock.

No, but the other officers at the scene agreeing to cover for him and dispose of evidence do represent the flock.


I'm told they eat the whole kill, so at least there is that.
 
2009-10-08 01:31:53 PM
bestiality

Keep farkin that chicken, Gohmert.
 
2009-10-08 01:31:54 PM
Cyberluddite: I like this quote from his little monologue:

"I've heard some people say that if you question our President because he happens to be black, then, gee you must be a racist."

Umm, let me see if I can explain this to you slowly, you farking retard. If you question "our President," or any other person, just "because he happens to be black," then yes, by the very definition of the term it does in fact mean you're a racist, in that you're being critical of him just because he happens to be black. If you question him because you disagree with him for any reason other than that he happens to be black--e.g., because you disagree with his views on their merits--then it does not mean that you're a racist. Got it?

I guess you've tipped your hand about one reason why you apparently disagree with him, though.


Try punctuating it a bit differently:
"I've heard some people say that if you question our President, because he happens to be black, then gee you must be a racist."

It's still awkward, but I think what he's trying to say is:
"I've heard some people say that if you question our President, then you are a racist because he is black"
 
2009-10-08 01:33:17 PM
what_now: Look, hate crime laws are stupid. If you kill someone because they owe you money that doesn't make them LESS DEAD then if you kill someone because they are black, white, asian, gay, a furry, jewish, or arabic.

But that's not the point of the hate crime laws. It's about deterrence, not retribution. Point is, some groups are targeted - theoretically, increased punishments for crimes that target those groups should aid to deter those who would otherwise target those groups.
Whether or not this works is a different matter, but the rationale is deterrence.

We have seriously farked up laws in this country. Legalize and decriminalize all narcotics. Execute murders and rapists. Put people who commit a crime with a handgun in jail for 20 years. Bring back public humiliation.

That's not equally farked up? Execute murderers and rapists, such that any rapist has a risk-free incentive to kill the only witness. Put people who commit a crime with a handgun in jail for 20 years so that they're never hireable and, when released, will turn to crime to survive.
Public humiliation I'm down with, though.
 
2009-10-08 01:33:35 PM
what_now: Bring back public humiliation.

They got rid of public humiliation? That was my favorite porn site.
 
2009-10-08 01:33:50 PM
Theaetetus: And heeeere's SkinnyHead, defending NAMBLA.

You're the one defending NAMBLA. You want to extend legal protection to those who have a sexual orientation toward children.
 
2009-10-08 01:34:22 PM
what_now: Look, hate crime laws are stupid. If you kill someone because they owe you money that doesn't make them LESS DEAD then if you kill someone because they are black, white, asian, gay, a furry, jewish, or arabic.

We have seriously farked up laws in this country. Legalize and decriminalize all narcotics. Execute murders and rapists. Put people who commit a crime with a handgun in jail for 20 years. Bring back public humiliation.


Motive has always factored into the penalty for a crime. This is nothing new, it's just that most of the people who rail against hate crimes wish they were allowed to have regular lynchings.
 
2009-10-08 01:34:30 PM
mightybaldking: Try punctuating it a bit differently:
"I've heard some people say that if you question our President, because he happens to be black, then gee you must be a racist."


Yeah, except I actually listened to him say it in the video, and he said it the way I wrote it.
 
2009-10-08 01:35:18 PM
SkinnyHead: You're the one defending NAMBLA

Nope:
SkinnyHead: Children can consent.

There you are, saying that children can consent to the sexual attentions of men, you sick kiddie-diddler. Do you have your NAMBLA certificate hanging on the wall next to your GED in Law?
 
2009-10-08 01:35:25 PM
NeverDrunk23: Obdicut: verbal_jizm: Hve you recently become less subtle? I can't believe I fell for your schtick before.

He's gotten sloppy, that's for sure:

His cover was blown. It ruined his character that he worked so hard to make. Now no one will argue with him like before anymore. At this point, to him, why even bother anymore? Similar to why skookum is almost gone. The joke is over, the story has ended, no more reason for acting.

Funny though: calling him every insult in book (which is his own damn fault for being called that) = he keeps chugging along

Pointing out how he's an alt = ZOMG, he insta-ignores you.


Well what do you want? half of real conservatives don't know how to use computers and the other half can't stand to post on a forum that doesn't ban people for having different beliefs.
 
2009-10-08 01:35:47 PM
Barbigazi:
He's a paper rapist.


Would that be "papist", for short?
 
2009-10-08 01:36:48 PM
Poopspasm: This is nothing new, it's just that most of the people who rail against hate crimes wish they were allowed to have regular lynchings.

Aside: the argument against jury nullification, which we on Fark all know and love, is that its primary use was all-white juries refusing to convict lynch mobs, even when the lynchers readily confessed.
 
2009-10-08 01:37:30 PM
Pocket Ninja: what_now: Full grown adults can consent to do things that you may not approve of, participate in, or even want to watch on youtube, but should not be illegal!!

So, by your rules, two full grown adults can CONSENT to HAVE SEX with a FOUR YEAR OLD BOY and his DOG. And it's all OK because they CONSENT! See, it's that kind of liberal LOOPHOLE that we need people like Gohmert to DEFEND us AGAINST.


That's a retarded comeback. Seriously.
 
2009-10-08 01:37:46 PM
SkinnyHead: Children can consent. The idea that children cannot consent is a legal fiction.

i159.photobucket.com

Hmmmm...nope, I don't buy it
 
2009-10-08 01:37:51 PM
So if you murder someone and it's not a hate crime you get 30 years. If you murder someone and it's a hate crime then you get 60 years. Why not just make it 60 years for all murders?
 
2009-10-08 01:38:55 PM
what_now: Look, hate crime laws are stupid. If you kill someone because they owe you money that doesn't make them LESS DEAD then if you kill someone because they are black, white, asian, gay, a furry, jewish, or arabic.

While that's true, the actual logic behind recognizing hate crimes as a separate category of offense is precisely because criminal culpability extends beyond the harm done to that particular individual - hate crimes are not targeted toward one particular person, but rather the group that a particular person belongs to. Killing someone who owes you money, however, would be limited to that particular individual - it's unlikely that you'd do that as a general statement about your hatred for people in debt.
 
2009-10-08 01:38:56 PM
SkinnyHead: Theaetetus: And heeeere's SkinnyHead, defending NAMBLA.

You're the one defending NAMBLA. You want to extend legal protection to those who have a sexual orientation toward children.



Whereas you are defending the national society of imbeciles.

Kudos.
 
2009-10-08 01:39:21 PM
Theaetetus: 12349876: Just realized the point of this post might not be clear, the point is that if you kill someone because they're a pedophile, you're committing a hate crime because you are engaging in vigilante justice against a specific group of people (unless it's self defense, of course).

Well, kinda, yeah. You can't kill someone just because they have a sexual fetish. Now, if they act on that fetish, that's a different matter, but killing someone for a thoughtcrime they can't control?


And there's the rub. It's fine to make sexual orientations themselves a protected class, with certain restrictions. For instance, I would be fine with prevening known pedophiles from working with children. However, just because someone has a sexual orientation different than you does not give you a reason to commit crimes against them. There is actually nothing illegal about being a pedophile who lives a quiet life and never lays a single finger on the kiddies.

Protecting sexual orientations does not give them legal status, and it does not guarantee that you have the right to exercise your particular orientation. A possible pitfall of this legal philosophy is that sodomy laws could remain on the books, but if we hinge more of our law code on the ability to give consent it shouldn't present a problem.

And, again, children cannot legally give consent, so any sex with them is by definition illegal. If you think this is wrong, lobby to change the law. Good luck.
 
2009-10-08 01:40:06 PM
paygun: Why not just make it 60 years for all murders?

Because certain groups are targeted more often. Thus, a stronger deterrent with regard to those groups is arguably justified.
 
2009-10-08 01:40:12 PM
Didn't we have this same story yesterday (new window)?
 
2009-10-08 01:40:13 PM
what_now: Look, hate crime laws are stupid. If you kill someone because they owe you money that doesn't make them LESS DEAD then if you kill someone because they are black, white, asian, gay, a furry, jewish, or arabic.

We have seriously farked up laws in this country. Legalize and decriminalize all narcotics. Execute murders and rapists. Put people who commit a crime with a handgun in jail for 20 years. Bring back public humiliation.


Motive makes all the farkin difference in a crime. It differentiates Manslaughter from Murder, and the degrees of Murder. It's all about danger to society. Why someone kills someone else is a huge factor in what threat they pose to the rest of society. A person who kills a man who slept with his wife is far, far less of a threat to society than a person who kills homosexuals because he hates them. Killing someone for something they did can be very different that killing someone for what they are.
 
2009-10-08 01:40:38 PM
Barbigazi: SkinnyHead: Isn't a sexual orientation toward children (pedophilia) a "sexual orientation"?

I think its more of a sexual fetish. Regardless it is non-consensual, so it isn't really important if its an orientation or a fetish.


He's right actually. Pedophelia is a sexual predilection. Just like being attracted to fat people, hairy people, tall people, etc.

BUT CHILDREN CANNOT CONSENT BY LAW SO THE POINT IS MOOT.

MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT. As in stop talking about it and lending it credence.
 
2009-10-08 01:41:54 PM
UnrepentantApostate: And, again, children cannot legally give consent, so any sex with them is by definition illegal. If you think this is wrong, lobby to change the law.

Allow me to again quote:
SkinnyHead: Children can consent. The idea that children cannot consent is a legal fiction.

Simply disgusting.
 
2009-10-08 01:42:00 PM
paygun: So if you murder someone and it's not a hate crime you get 30 years. If you murder someone and it's a hate crime then you get 60 years. Why not just make it 60 years for all murders?

If I murder you because you are on fark, people will be less likely to admit they are on fark. Thus my crime is not only murdering you, but stigmatizing a group of depressive shut-ins.

Now if I kill you because you looked at me funny. It might discourage people from looking at me funny again, but it doesn't stigmatize people who look at me.

Really when most people say hate crimes they mean terrorism. The purpose of the crime is to terrorize a group.

Or at least that is how I see it.
 
2009-10-08 01:43:37 PM
AuntofDogface: I'm really starting to get concerned about some of these Republicans. I've had some "interesting" experiences in my day and am pretty open to "stuff", however, bestiality, necrophelia, pedophelia are things that have never ever crossed my mind. Are they in the closet partaking of such nonsense?

Yes, yes they are. They think about this stuff. They go home and instead of sitting down with the wife to discuss the topic of the day, or maybe watching Fringe, they think about little boys who are naked, their penis, dog vaginas, their penis, and what a dead corpses body would feel like against their warm, hot, penis.

That is why they scare me.

Normal people go through life without worrying about this because it isn't part of their day to day process.
 
2009-10-08 01:43:57 PM
fernt: That's easy:

Three black guys kill a white guy because they hate white guys:
- not a hate crime - it's America's fault because of slavery

Three white guys kill a black guy because they hate black guys:
- hate crime - obviously

Apparently you cannot commit a hate crime against a white person unless they're a homosexual.


Young on old hate crime (new window)

Black on white hate crime (new window)

Black on white hate crime (new window)

Etc etc etc. These stories were all "hidden" in obscure sources like the New York Times and LA Weekly.

Are you lying or just incredibly stupid -- so stupid that you can't even do a simple google search before you spout your nonsense?

(Having read your posts before, I'm gonna have to go with "really really stupid, uninquisitive, easily led, quick to believe rumour and innuendo, paranoid and insulated".)
 
2009-10-08 01:44:00 PM
Barbigazi: Really when most people say hate crimes they mean terrorism. The purpose of the crime is to terrorize a group.

That's a good point... I wonder if the anti-hate crime law people would be fine with instead prosecuting the perpetrators as domestic terrorists?

/or just waterboarding them and sending them to Gitmo
 
2009-10-08 01:44:08 PM
what_now: Look, hate crime laws are stupid. If you kill someone because they owe you money that doesn't make them LESS DEAD then if you kill someone because they are black, white, asian, gay, a furry, jewish, or arabic.

Hate crime laws don' t charge more because of that.

They charge more because a portion of your crime it to terrorize that particular group of people. You aren't just murdering, you are murdering AND threatening a populace.

/wasn't pro-hate crime legislation
//this is a good argument though
 
2009-10-08 01:45:44 PM
BeesNuts: He's right actually. Pedophelia is a sexual predilection. Just like being attracted to fat people, hairy people, tall people, etc.

Actually, he's wrong. A fetish (or sexual predilection, that's what you want to call it) is something quite distinct from sexual orientation.
 
2009-10-08 01:48:16 PM
Also in a hate crime it's more of a random attack on anyone who seems to be a member of a specific group. There was a case in queens where two brothers were attacked and one killed because a group of thugs thought they were a gay couple. It was charged as a hate crime.
 
2009-10-08 01:48:24 PM
Bill_Wick's_Friend: fernt: That's easy:

Three black guys kill a white guy because they hate white guys:
- not a hate crime - it's America's fault because of slavery

Three white guys kill a black guy because they hate black guys:
- hate crime - obviously

Apparently you cannot commit a hate crime against a white person unless they're a homosexual.

Young on old hate crime (new window)

Black on white hate crime (new window)

Black on white hate crime (new window)

Etc etc etc. These stories were all "hidden" in obscure sources like the New York Times and LA Weekly.

Are you lying or just incredibly stupid -- so stupid that you can't even do a simple google search before you spout your nonsense?

(Having read your posts before, I'm gonna have to go with "really really stupid, uninquisitive, easily led, quick to believe rumour and innuendo, paranoid and insulated".)


Also, didn't the US Supreme Court case that upheld hate crime legislation originate with blacks who targeted a white person?
 
2009-10-08 01:48:37 PM
Theaetetus: Aside: the argument against jury nullification, which we on Fark all know and love, is that its primary use was all-white juries refusing to convict lynch mobs, even when the lynchers readily confessed.

I'm not a fan of nullification for the most part but this is a weak argument against it. Gun control laws were also widely used for racist purposes back in the day. That fact doesn't make the concept a bad idea.

I say I oppose nullification for the most part, because I'd have to think about it if I was on a jury where someone faced a ridiculous mandatory minimum sentence for a nonviolent crime.
 
2009-10-08 01:49:03 PM
I get the feeling that some republicans don't consider consent important because they have never encountered it before...
 
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