itazurakko: I'll say the same thing on the "gifted" threads - half the issue is that ALL kids could really benefit from really involved, open-ended, project-based caring education, but the US as a whole is not willing to pay for it, so people argue endlessly about how it's going to be doled out, and meanwhile once the categories become known, everyone tries to get their kid in there.

You speak the truth. It's stupidly ineffective for all kids, although I have a soft spot for gifted kids so I think they get it in the shorts more. I looked into the gifted resources in the state I live in. The response was "What?"

/rage

felixecho:

He is in special ed now with the kids with autism and asbergers.


I am doing everything I can to avoid the special-ed label. Fortunatelty, we have two years of high marks in school to help us. Secondly, there is something called a section 504 plan which you can persue that will get the child accomodations based on his needs. Schools don't advertise it because they don't get money from the govt for it but they get money for special-ed.

/Has a 504 meeting this week.

AngryJailhouseFistfark: Aidan: What I read in Microtrends (by Mark Penn, so consider the source on that one), is that part of the uptick in autism being the disorder du jour is that you get extra help for your kid from the school board. So some parents are basically diagnosing their child as "just autistic enough" to get more teacher time, etc.

My son's name is Aidan so I got a real kick out of this response.

I believe I thanked you profusely in an earlier thread for spelling it right. :)

/Yes, I know I'm using the wrong spelling
//It makes me unique!
///No, I am not named Unique

AngryJailhouseFistfark: ... The problem with The Modern Parent and their tendency towards Disorder Du Jour, is that autism, ADHD, Aspbergers, and the like have no quantifiable test.

Actually, there is a test. Neurological imaging has shown a difference in connectivity between the hemispheres of the brain, and a particular over-connectivity in the left hemisphere. Also, an enlarged amygdala (emotional center of the brain) is another physical and quantifiable feature of most people who are on the spectrum. Of course, you'd know that if you'd bothered to read a little before making your post

I have been told by numerous people that I act in an Asperger's fashion. I have been exploring Asperger's myself as it may answer a lot of questions I have had about myself and explain things that have led me to be the person who I am now and what has happened to me in the past.

It is very possible it is over-diagnosed, but it seems to me that it just has been unrecognized until recently. I like to think I am on a personal voyage of rediscovery and even if it isn't Asperger's, all of this can be pretty tough at times. And if it is Asperger's, it's not like I want medications to dull it out, but rather I just want the peace of mind instead of constantly wondering what the hell is wrong with me every waking moment.

JonnyBGoode: There are a couple of external symptoms that Autistics and Aspies have in common that are rather quick to spot and tell if someone has it or is just faking or just being a brat. One of those is "stimming", which is a quirky repetitive motion that people on the autistic spectrum do when stressed. (This includes the familiar rocking, hand-flapping, etc. but can also include toe-tapping, hand-wringing, rapid pacing, head-scratching, etc.) The more stressed they become, the more pronounced this symptom will become. The other symptom that is common to both and readily recognizable is gaze avoidance. It is difficult, and actually extremely physically uncomfortable, for someone with Autism or Aspergers to look someone in the eye for any prolonged period of time. (Something that's still a biatch for me and I'm still working on; probably what gave me away to that behavioral therapist the other night.)

Serious question: is this in any way related to Tourettes Syndrome? Are they systemically the same?

Do you know of anyone that has Aspergers/Autism and Tourettes?

/Because that kid would throw one hell of a party.

came for the chevy chase/community reference... did not leave disappointed...

i know that show is going to be cancelled but i'll enjoy it while it last.

Aidan: JonnyBGoode: The other symptom that is common to both and readily recognizable is gaze avoidance. It is difficult, and actually extremely physically uncomfortable, for someone with Autism or Aspergers to look someone in the eye for any prolonged period of time. (Something that's still a biatch for me and I'm still working on; probably what gave me away to that behavioral therapist the other night.)

Odd. I do that, and I'm just introverted.

As far as I know... [shifty eyes]

/Before you excoriate me, yes it is severely uncomfortable

May be the first time I've seen the word "excoriate" in a posting here.

/Be my friend?
//I can't hold a gaze either
///Not autistic, just not confident

Aidan: Odd. I do that, and I'm just introverted.

As far as I know... [shifty eyes]

/Before you excoriate me, yes it is severely uncomfortable

Yeah, I'm that way too, in my case I think the lion's share of the issue is cultural.

In my very FOBby days, I got preyed upon by what turned out to by Scientologists (seriously!) who said I had some kinda "personality disorder" partly due to the lack of eye contact thing.

I knew they were scamming after sitting through their whole little introduction thing (where they made me take some test) and they wouldn't listen to me try explaining that hey, things are different elsewhere.

But then, you had them on one side of the table, and me, who was pretty much unable to give a straight "no," never mind a "HELL no" to anyone at that point, on the other.

Hilarity. Luckily I was only on vacation in that town.

Years later I realize just how obvious their intro was, but I didn't recognize it at the time.

TrixieDelite: Aidan: JonnyBGoode: The other symptom that is common to both and readily recognizable is gaze avoidance. It is difficult, and actually extremely physically uncomfortable, for someone with Autism or Aspergers to look someone in the eye for any prolonged period of time. (Something that's still a biatch for me and I'm still working on; probably what gave me away to that behavioral therapist the other night.)

Odd. I do that, and I'm just introverted.

As far as I know... [shifty eyes]

/Before you excoriate me, yes it is severely uncomfortable

May be the first time I've seen the word "excoriate" in a posting here.

/Be my friend?
//I can't hold a gaze either
///Not autistic, just not confident

We can do a fist-bump while looking at each other's chins. It's the new cool.

itazurakko: hairywoogit: They are genetic, can be tested for

Really? I thought there were some leads but the word was still out?

I have heard that in the future likely Asperger's and Autism will be separated, but dunno.

/but it's definitely NOT vaccines. Just so that's clear.

The larger problem with genetic testing is that it may be like cancer. While we can find the genetic structure that is most likely to be damaged after the fact, there is still some debate as to what causes it. Much like cancer, the issue isn't just the genetics, because it would be much easier to diagnose if it were.

Most genetic assays are testing for fragile X, which helps a lot with diagnosis. There are other chromosomal issues that tend to present with autism, all of which helps with diagnosis.

Unfortunately there is no testing that will stand on its own, it requires other developmental issues to create confirmed diagnosis. Again, much like cancer. You can have a predisposition towards it, and never actually develop it, provided the oncogene is never mutated or expressed.

It's Asperger's, not Asberger's.

rumpelstiltskin: pla:
Free clue, folks - Autistic kids don't share. They don't "ask" for anything. They don't use grammar and spelling. The sit in the corner and repeatedly bang their heads into the wall. If they want something you have, they will simply take it from you, quite possible with considerable violence if resisted. They "communicate", only when absolutely unavoidable, by shrieking (in no particular language) until you divine what they might want.


That's pretty much every boss I ever had.

That made me laugh so farking hard I just peed a little.
/bastardo

brigid_fitch: I just scoff in general at the multitude of articles like this one, where they paint autism as running rampant. It's not running rampant--the definitions keep getting looser and more "symptoms" keep getting added on. That's why I said that 30 years ago, most of us would have been branded as some form of autistic.

This, AND it seems the point of the article is to worry about the eventual medical costs/life care costs. It just seems to me that people on the "high end" or "mild end" of the spectrum who weren't discovered before, even if they are now discovered, it's not like it will cost huge amounts of resources for them because they DO GET BY as it is, just as they have been for those intervening 30 years. Nothing wrong with people diagnosing them or anything, mind.

So it doesn't need to be a "ZOMG crisis!"

I'd be interested in knowing what the numbers are for people in the low-functioning "classic Autism"/"Kanner's syndrome" people, is that increasing/decreasing/staying the same, but all the articles lately seem to be about "every other kid has autism!!!! Oh no!!!" because they're casting the really wide net.

TrixieDelite: JonnyBGoode: There are a couple of external symptoms that Autistics and Aspies have in common that are rather quick to spot and tell if someone has it or is just faking or just being a brat. One of those is "stimming", which is a quirky repetitive motion that people on the autistic spectrum do when stressed. (This includes the familiar rocking, hand-flapping, etc. but can also include toe-tapping, hand-wringing, rapid pacing, head-scratching, etc.) The more stressed they become, the more pronounced this symptom will become. The other symptom that is common to both and readily recognizable is gaze avoidance. It is difficult, and actually extremely physically uncomfortable, for someone with Autism or Aspergers to look someone in the eye for any prolonged period of time. (Something that's still a biatch for me and I'm still working on; probably what gave me away to that behavioral therapist the other night.)

Serious question: is this in any way related to Tourettes Syndrome? Are they systemically the same?

Do you know of anyone that has Aspergers/Autism and Tourettes?

/Because that kid would throw one hell of a party.

The two aren't related, although often someone with one can be misdiagnosed with the other. I'm sure there have been people with both. (Also, stims are not the same as tics, which confuses a lot of people.)

rumpelstiltskin: pla:
Free clue, folks - Autistic kids don't share. They don't "ask" for anything. They don't use grammar and spelling. The sit in the corner and repeatedly bang their heads into the wall. If they want something you have, they will simply take it from you, quite possible with considerable violence if resisted. They "communicate", only when absolutely unavoidable, by shrieking (in no particular language) until you divine what they might want.


That's pretty much every boss I ever had.

Bad news. It's you, not them.

"Asbergers still just a bunch of people who need a good ass kicking"

"It's just an excuse to cover up bad parenting"

"It is not a type of autism"

"Because it is on a spectrum it is relative and therefore meaningless because we are all on the spectrum."

These and other quotes by people who have no idea what they are talking about available in bulk at Fark.com

Seriously now, okay? Asperger's is real. It has been real for ages. It is a form of autism, which symptomatically is on a spectrum. It is specifically identifiable through scientific testing. If you don't have it, you are not on the spectrum even if your behaviors seem to match up pretty closely. You can have it even if your behaviors don't seem to match up closely in many areas. Because it manifests itself differently in different individuals, some people exhibit virtually no difficulties while others do. Sensory Integrative disorders are frequently associated with Asperger's patients. Although Asperger's predates most vaccinations, there has been some evidence (though inconclusive) which suggests that in some people some vaccines have seemed to have long term permanent affects on brain chemistry. In other words, it is possible that vaccinations could be the cause of some autism in some people, though as I said that evidence is so far inconclusive. And finally, a little lesson in logic for you all: There are bad parents who raise brats who exhibit autism-like behaviors. There are autistic kids who exhibit brat-like behavior. Because Asperger's is often not diagnosed until early adolescence and because not many people understand it, telling the two kinds of kids apart is difficult for the average person. Further, because dealing with these kids without professional diagnosis and help is extremely frustrating, the parents can also appear similar in personality. However, to assume that all kids who exhibit these behaviors are brats, or all of them are Asperger's, or all of them are anything else, is simply illogical and stupid. Both exist, both are real.

One Asperger's sufferer in particular should be mentioned. Though never diagnosed until recently (through preserved tissue/DNA samples), this man was particularly successful in life. He traveled the world, despite never getting a driver's license because he found operating a car "too complicated" (his words) for him. He had a prestigious job, to which he wore one of seven identical grey suits, one for each day of the week, because otherwise he would spend hours in front of his closet unable to decide what to wear. Though socially he functioned close to normal given the time period, his personal hygiene was simply not given a priority. It was particularly noticeable in his hair, which was only rarely ever brushed or combed. His preoccupation with numbers and formulae caused him to be a rather poor student in the traditional sense, at least in those classes which did not have to do with math and science. One formula of his own derivation became quite popular in the middle of the last century...E=mc².

brigid_fitch: hairywoogit: My child was diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome, courtesy of massive testing, including genetic assays, weeks of observation, etc. Fortunately, he is on the high function side, so helping him adapt to other kids is a heckuva lot easier then it is for the low-function autistics.

See, this is the kind of stuff I don't buy for a second. Oh, I'm absolutely certain you had your child tested so extensively--I just think the "diagnosis" is bullshiat. It's virtually impossible to differentiate between a "high-functioning Asperger's" kid from any other kid who is just "off". What exactly does he do that you believe he's got Asperger's? How old is he?

/For the record, I'm not a doctor or psychiatrist or anything
//Just a former HS teacher, so I *do* have some experience in this area.

That's like saying, "I drive by the country club, so I have some experience in golf."

AngryJailhouseFistfark: call the insurance company and see if they'll pay for it.

Ah, but there's the kicker. Most insurances will not pay for it, and most imaging is done in clinical studies because it's the only way people can afford it.

Here's one such study that was done:
Connectivity-Guided Neurofeedback for Autism Spectrum Disorder

Sticky Hands: That makes sense. Those two farkers can't get along with anyone else. why should we assume they could handle each other?

Heh.

What exactly do parents of said children hope for their kids ?

fighting the special-ed stigma and all that. What is the point. Do you really see a day when your son / daughter is going to emerge from the serious condition they are in ?

Won't these folks be like this forever ? I was reading an article in TIME a few months back describing the parents of an Autistic man. They have been caring for the guy their whole lives. He is barely responsive and now his brother is going to have to take over when they are gone. They have zapped their $$$, they put their lives on hold, now the brother will be asked / expected to do the same. And this was common for families with Autistic children.

Is there any way to test for this in the womb ?

APE992: zez: ass burgers, if it was a serious disease they would give it a better name.

Obvious troll is obvious.

It's named after a man who described it in depth, much like a lot of conditions, syndromes and diseases.

Ape992, it's not a troll, it's a quote from 'Community' from a few wks back.

TrixieDelite:
Serious question: is this in any way related to Tourettes Syndrome? Are they systemically the same?

Do you know of anyone that has Aspergers/Autism and Tourettes?

/Because that kid would throw one hell of a party.

I used to teach kids with complicated Asperger's and I did have one who had Tourette's also. He did not have coprolalia though, thank God.

When I was a kid, I loved to read, hated homework (was smart and didn't feel like doing it), wasn't very social but was reasonably bright and funny if given the chance.

Im thankful that mom wasn't some suburbanite who wanted to load me up with pills.

Do kids have behavioral problems? sure but the fix isn't always meds. We didn't have ritalin in my house for when I acted up or didn't do homework. We had "the belt"

and it was effective.

When Pfizer/Lilly paid for your doctor's last Scotland golf trip, there's a reason..and it isn't because your kid needs medication for being a brat.

kindms: What exactly do parents of said children hope for their kids ?

fighting the special-ed stigma and all that. What is the point. Do you really see a day when your son / daughter is going to emerge from the serious condition they are in ?

Won't these folks be like this forever ? I was reading an article in TIME a few months back describing the parents of an Autistic man. They have been caring for the guy their whole lives. He is barely responsive and now his brother is going to have to take over when they are gone. They have zapped their $$$, they put their lives on hold, now the brother will be asked / expected to do the same. And this was common for families with Autistic children.

Is there any way to test for this in the womb ?

The preeminent sign of being special ed is having a space between the last word in a sentence and the question mark.

/worried ?

As someone wih Aspergers syndrome, I have to agree with subby. Those Asburgers people are a complete pain in the ass.

/Ass
//Burgers
///Poop!

AngryJailhouseFistfark: Made-for-TV

Though I like to try to give people the benefit of the doubt, I stopped trying to take you seriously at this phrase.

Balchinian: It is specifically identifiable through scientific testing.

What exactly does this testing involve? Can you provide links to it?

Mmmmmm, Jenny McCarthy. I'd eat the cheese out of her Asperger's.

heidi girl: TrixieDelite:
Serious question: is this in any way related to Tourettes Syndrome? Are they systemically the same?

Do you know of anyone that has Aspergers/Autism and Tourettes?

/Because that kid would throw one hell of a party.

I used to teach kids with complicated Asperger's and I did have one who had Tourette's also. He did not have coprolalia though, thank God.

Coprolalia?
I think we should start seeing other people.

What assburgers may look like:

Link (new window)

/slightly NSFW

Allow me to sum this thread up.

Farker A) Said "disease" (not sure what to call it) is just an over-exaggeration by lazy parents because their kids are teh suck.
Farker B) My kid has said "disease" (waaaah) so Fark you.

Every one of these threads is exactly the same.
right down to the overabundance of "Assburgers" prattle.

/Jaded.

There's no objective medical evidence which shows Asperger's has anything to do with autism.

There's reason to believe that Asperger's disorder and autism are NOT related, even though people want to insist that Asperger's is a form of high functioning autism.

If you can manage to give an IQ test to autistic, you'll generally find that they have very poor verbal IQ and a higher performance IQ.

If you give an IQ test to a kid with Asperger's, you usually find that they have an elevated verbal IQ (average to very high) and a lower performance IQ.

That's not even close to being different points on a spectrum. It's two different things. I think these are probably different diseases.

Balchinian 2009-10-05 04:21:30 PM

"Asbergers still just a bunch of people who need a good ass kicking"

"It's just an excuse to cover up bad parenting"

"It is not a type of autism"

"Because it is on a spectrum it is relative and therefore meaningless because we are all on the spectrum."

These and other quotes by people who have no idea what they are talking about available in bulk at Fark.com

Seriously now, okay? Asperger's is real. It has been real for ages. It is a form of autism, which symptomatically is on a spectrum. It is specifically identifiable through scientific testing. If you don't have it, you are not on the spectrum even if your behaviors seem to match up pretty closely. You can have it even if your behaviors don't seem to match up closely in many areas. Because it manifests itself differently in different individuals, some people exhibit virtually no difficulties while others do. Sensory Integrative disorders are frequently associated with Asperger's patients. Although Asperger's predates most vaccinations, there has been some evidence (though inconclusive) which suggests that in some people some vaccines have seemed to have long term permanent affects on brain chemistry. In other words, it is possible that vaccinations could be the cause of some autism in some people, though as I said that evidence is so far inconclusive. And finally, a little lesson in logic for you all: There are bad parents who raise brats who exhibit autism-like behaviors. There are autistic kids who exhibit brat-like behavior. Because Asperger's is often not diagnosed until early adolescence and because not many people understand it, telling the two kinds of kids apart is difficult for the average person. Further, because dealing with these kids without professional diagnosis and help is extremely frustrating, the parents can also appear similar in personality. However, to assume that all kids who exhibit these behaviors are brats, or all of them are Asperger's, or all of them are anything else, is simply illogical and stupid. Both exist, both are real.

One Asperger's sufferer in particular should be mentioned. Though never diagnosed until recently (through preserved tissue/DNA samples), this man was particularly successful in life. He traveled the world, despite never getting a driver's license because he found operating a car "too complicated" (his words) for him. He had a prestigious job, to which he wore one of seven identical grey suits, one for each day of the week, because otherwise he would spend hours in front of his closet unable to decide what to wear. Though socially he functioned close to normal given the time period, his personal hygiene was simply not given a priority. It was particularly noticeable in his hair, which was only rarely ever brushed or combed. His preoccupation with numbers and formulae caused him to be a rather poor student in the traditional sense, at least in those classes which did not have to do with math and science. One formula of his own derivation became quite popular in the middle of the last century...E=mc2.


Einstein's DNA was tested and he was posthumously diagnosed with Aspergers? Really? Okay, I'll call bullshiat.
Sorry about your weird kid.

brigid_fitch: It's virtually impossible to differentiate between a "high-functioning Asperger's" kid from any other kid who is just "off".

Not to someone trained in that branch of psychology it's not, Mr. Experience.

Nor to others on the spectrum. I could spot a kid who was really an Aspie (versus a kid who was just being a little jerk) a mile off.

(Although to be fair, most doctors are clueless about the symptoms, so I shouldn't wonder that high school coaches are. My own doctors were pretty much clueless, most of my life.)

brigid_fitch:
See, this is the kind of stuff I don't buy for a second. Oh, I'm absolutely certain you had your child tested so extensively--I just think the "diagnosis" is bullshiat. It's virtually impossible to differentiate between a "high-functioning Asperger's" kid from any other kid who is just "off". What exactly does he do that you believe he's got Asperger's? How old is he?

/For the record, I'm not a doctor or psychiatrist or anything
//Just a former HS teacher, so I *do* have some experience in this area.

He is currently seven. And if you think its impossible, you observed the wrong children. When I say high functioning, what I mean is that he can be integrated with normal children with a lot of work. And even then, he will have difficulties. Not that he has a few quirks, but that he has to be constantly and actively schooled in order to avoid having serious social issues.

And honestly, while I could go through all of the symptoms, it seems, from your posts above, you are predisposed to dismiss any evidence. You have stated, sight unseen, and admittedly ignorant in the field, that you feel the diagnosis is wrong, and you are welcome to your opinion.

Some of you won't really want to read about this then...

Link (new window)

kindms: What exactly do parents of said children hope for their kids ?

fighting the special-ed stigma and all that. What is the point. Do you really see a day when your son / daughter is going to emerge from the serious condition they are in ?

Won't these folks be like this forever ? I was reading an article in TIME a few months back describing the parents of an Autistic man. They have been caring for the guy their whole lives. He is barely responsive and now his brother is going to have to take over when they are gone. They have zapped their $$$, they put their lives on hold, now the brother will be asked / expected to do the same. And this was common for families with Autistic children.

Is there any way to test for this in the womb ?

Well, while the kids with autism or Aspbergers won't get all that much better, I was told kids with sensory processing disorder can. My son gets occupational therapy through the school. I was told it is a matter of creating and strengthening new pathways in the brain.

Of course, that is a fancy way to say they are teaching him the right way to behave. I certainly haven't been able to teach him not to scream when something, anything, doesn't go his way. Also, his self esteem is crushed. For 3 grades he has been the weirdo who lost all of his recesses, or at least had the teacher on his arse all of the time.

Now his class is all weirdos. Sigh. At least he gets to have recess with the rest of the school kids now. He was getting really lonely.