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(London Times)   Bush Sr. says no to unilateral war on Iraq   (timesonline.co.uk) divider line 720
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23012 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Mar 2003 at 6:39 PM (11 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2003-03-13 01:01:54 AM  
I can't really say i've liked many presidents.

The only one I can think of is JFK, sure nobody was perfect, but....

He signed a bill calling for the US treasury (Not the Federal Reserve) to print 480 billion dollars in United States of America Notes, which were backed by gold and silver. This would have taken off much dependency on the Federal Reserve, which charges us interest on the money it loans us.

Also he almost abolished the CIA, and he told 'operation Northwoods' to fark itself.

Whatever the reasons were for his assassination, you know that he was trying to screw over some elites, most likely putting the We The People first priority.
 
2003-03-13 01:02:35 AM  
Oh yeah, when johnson got into office he quickly repealed that executive order about the money.
 
2003-03-13 01:03:33 AM  
Interesting point Eraser8 :)
 
2003-03-13 01:05:30 AM  
HomestarJunior -
I realize that there's a lot of words there, but you might want to read some of
this website
. For your own good. Cuz I'm worried about you. Seriously.
 
2003-03-13 01:05:54 AM  
But if there wasn't money...and education was properly rigged to teach students that money is evil or something and community service would take up some portion of schooltime and physical training were required...you just need to breed people differently. Obviously most people alive now wouldn't work with communism correctly, but that's because they weren't raised to.

Also the point can be brought up that all political systems have tons of faults and there will never be a "good" government system.
 
2003-03-13 01:06:06 AM  
Well, it looks like the former President Bush is going to get a visit from Ashcroft's office for his treasonous dissent. Patriotism means blind loyalty, dammit!
 
2003-03-13 01:06:30 AM  
Oh talk about pot and Kettle calling.

Republicans wouldnt have let the issue die? please. When yall Dems stop whining about stolen elections 3 years after the deal Ill listen to that theory with a straight face
 
2003-03-13 01:07:17 AM  
HomestarJunior writes: maybe they should have changed the electoral college system sooner so we wouldnt have ended up W Clinton either.

You are a monumental bonehead. Mr. Clinton won both the electoral vote and the popular one.

the Republicans understood how the system works and didnt cry about it when it happened to them.

When the New York Daily News asked a Bush aide about the possibility of Gore's winning the electoral vote and losing the popular poll, he replied: "The one thing we don't do is roll over -- we fight"

According to the paper:

[T]he core of the emerging Bush strategy assumes a popular uprising, stoked by the Bushies themselves, of course. In league with the campaign -- which is preparing talking points about the Electoral College's essential unfairness -- a massive talk-radio operation would be encouraged...

We'd have ads, too," said a Bush aide, "and I think you can count on the media to fuel the thing big-time. Even papers that supported Gore might turn against him because the will of the people will have been thwarted."

Local business leaders will be urged to lobby their customers, the clergy will be asked to speak up for the popular will and Team Bush will enlist as many Democrats as possible to scream as loud as they can.


And, from the Boston Herald:

The Bush camp, sources said, would likely challenge the legitimacy of a Gore win, casting it as an affront to the people's will and branding the Electoral College as an antiquated relic...One informal Bush adviser, who declined to be named, predicted Republicans would likely benefit from a storm of public outrage if Bush won the popular vote but was denied the presidency: "That's what America is all about, isn't it. I'm sure we would make a strong case."
 
daz
2003-03-13 01:08:25 AM  
03-12-03 11:16:54 PM Big Al
If it is such a major threat, why aren't countries lining up with the US to stop Saddam? Hint- Because they know he's a big joke.


Um, they are, what are you talking about? I guess this is why there is anti-war/anti-American people, because they have no clue.

Saudi Arabia is all for it, Kuwait is all for it, Iran doesn't have a problem with it, Jordan is cool, Syria biatches about everything everyone does, Israel is for it, Afghanistan is for it, Turkey is for it... how many more middle east neighbors do you need?

Saudi Arabia and Kuwait can't get rid of Saddam fast enough. Turkey wants Saddam gone, they're just not sure whether how they want to deal with the Kurds, and helping the US may imply that they have to play by US rules when dealing with the Kurds, which is the major issue involved in the whole "can US launch attacks from Turkish soil" business.
 
2003-03-13 01:08:26 AM  
Just curious if you wear a tinfoil hat Big Al? And if its to keep the aliens or govt from reading/stealing your thoughts?
Also you put on your pants one leg at a time or two?;)
 
2003-03-13 01:09:27 AM  
Jalan
No, you fool. Tin foil hats are for cooking brains.
 
2003-03-13 01:10:08 AM  
Eraser8 and KnightShyfte: I know that a lot of people complain about the 2000 election, but, regardless of which side you are on, I think it did work.

The matter was argued by lawyers in courts. The courts handed down decisions. Power was transitioned peacefully. In 2004, there will be another election, which Bush may or may not win.

You may disagree with the decisions or motivations of the courts or the parties involved, but... the system held together. Neither side took armed partisans to the streets, or appealed for military intervention. Another election will be held. Congressmen still bicker about laws.

It wasn't a particular pretty or graceful demonstration of democracy (and yes, I know we aren't strictly speaking a democracy), but things held together.

Just my opinion at any rate.
 
2003-03-13 01:10:16 AM  
I think the anti-peace masters would do better if they explained the economics of the war both long term and short. And possibly the geo-political strategy of it all, like hey we need to control this oil so china doesnt get ahold of it or something like that.

The fact that they rely on this kiddy fairy tale fear BS, tells me there isnt a very much in it for the people. (OR they would have undoubtedly shoved it down our throats by now)
 
2003-03-13 01:10:43 AM  
Patronization is so pathetic Infectious. I am quite well aware of that website. And many others on the subject.

Your worried about me because I believe in my country warts and all?

Id say that makes you the person to worry about.
 
2003-03-13 01:11:42 AM  
Daz-

Saudi Arabi is NOT all for the war on Iraq. They won't even let the US use bases in its country unless Saudi Arabi itself is attacked!
 
2003-03-13 01:12:36 AM  
I don't like bush one bit, but you guys would seriously rather have Al Gore in office? No really, serious?
 
2003-03-13 01:13:12 AM  
Saudi Arabia is all for it, Kuwait is all for it, Iran doesn't have a problem with it, Jordan is cool, Syria biatches about everything everyone does, Israel is for it, Afghanistan is for it, Turkey is for it... how many more middle east neighbors do you need?

Saudi Arabia is against it, Iran definetly doesnt support it, they are next anyhow, Jordan - nope, Israel is pushing for it, Afghanistan is under US military occupation, Turkey was only in it fro the 4 billion we promised them, but they still denied us use of their bases. You may be thinking of GUlf War 1
 
2003-03-13 01:14:39 AM  
Pfft, everybody knows brains are best in stew. Speaking of that, anyone else seen the absolutely crappy movie called "another heaven" ? It's horrid, but man was it a riot while high...Still haven't found a movie worse then Terror Toons, anyway a bit off topic~
 
2003-03-13 01:14:46 AM  
Weeflerunner, the measure of a system's effectiveness can't be left to whether the matter was settled in the courts or on the streets. The only proper measure is whether the system produced the results it was designed to produced; whether it worked as it was designed to work. On both counts, there is a very good argument that the system failed miserably.
 
2003-03-13 01:16:03 AM  
Oddly, I think the last election was an example of why we need an electoral college. If presidents were voted on by raw votes, we would have needed to recount every single state instead of just florida. Then do we need a majority (greater than 50%) total to become pres? Sure a different way to organize the college might be better, but its basic principle makes for a quicker decision during a very close election.
 
2003-03-13 01:16:35 AM  
Hey, Rikulrn...

 
2003-03-13 01:16:55 AM  
Daz,

I'd actually call Turkey a fence sitter on this one for the very reason you mentioned. The Kurdish groups in Iraq will likely establish their own region in Iraq and Turkey is worried that might cause problems W their Kurdish minorities.

But as Ive said before according to the leftists here its OK for France to prop up a murderous dictator for financially motivated reasons, but its not OK for the US to want to remove said dictator because money may be involved. And then the leftists wonder why they are though to be unAmerican
 
2003-03-13 01:16:58 AM  
Let's not forget why we have Saddam in the first place :-

"The target suffered a terminal illness before a firing squad in Baghdad."

-- CIA officer testifying to US Senate hearing, after bloody CIA aided Ba'th Party coup overthrew Iraqi Prime Minister Abdel Kassem, 1963

Abdel Kassem was a dirty socialist oil nationalisation proponent. DIE COMMIE SCUM.

Oh, he already did. Yay Yay USA !
 
2003-03-13 01:17:27 AM  
 
2003-03-13 01:18:14 AM  
Can we eliminate the word "Bush" from out vocabulary now?
 
2003-03-13 01:18:19 AM  
HomestarJunior:

And Wout the ingenuity of the US that is taking such a bashing here we wouldnt be arguing on the internet. And you doves who claim that nothing good comes of war remember that the internet was originally a military creation called ARPANET.

Wow! I'd call that the single most stupid post I've seen today. But, unfortunately, it's been quite a day and I couldn't say that without lying. It's interesting that ARPANET was a fruit of war and not of an interest in the advancement of inter-computer communications for efficient information sharing. Didn't know that.
 
2003-03-13 01:18:34 AM  
Weeflerunner: "The courts handed down decisions"

Yes, and of the 9 supreme court judges that handed down that decision, 5 were appointed by repulican presidents. What a shock the republican won eh?
 
2003-03-13 01:20:07 AM  
Just for the record, I am against the war so our current system can fail and we can rebuild, hell maybe we could control this new one.
 
2003-03-13 01:20:19 AM  
-if this wasn't so predictable...it would be funny.
 
2003-03-13 01:21:25 AM  
Iaminsane: Okay, let's assume that you are right and it is possible to alter human genetic (and you would have to go down to genetic, babies and children are pretty darn selfish) and behavioral make-up so that people are inherently altruistic. (I don't think it is, but let's go with it for the moment.)

How do you get from here to there? Currently, people do not have any incentive to make their decendants less competitive. If anything, just the opposite.

And how do you get the money to undertake such an experiment? Odds are the people with capital, are, well, capitalists.

I suspect that if people said, "Hey, let's give up money and power!" the general reaction would be: "OK! Um... You first!" And whoever was the last one left would make out like a bandit.

Maybe I'm pessimistic about human nature. I suppose it is possible that a major, earth shattering event could trigger some sort of overall change in attitudes, but I doubt it.

Oh, and I would say that strictly speaking communism is an economic system, not a political system, although there are doubtlessly many who would disagree.
 
2003-03-13 01:21:57 AM  
I don't much care for this nuisance of a gov't we have. Actually, the corporate sector of our establishment is the worst part, i'd like to decentralize gov't and power, and end the elitist banking cartel.

/trying to save humanity
 
2003-03-13 01:22:01 AM  
KnightShyfte writes: 5 were appointed by repulican presidents.

Actually, 7 were. The only justices appointed by a Democrat are Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Steven Breyer.
 
2003-03-13 01:22:37 AM  
 
2003-03-13 01:22:47 AM  
TAKE BACK THE POWER!
 
2003-03-13 01:23:05 AM  
03-13-03 01:16:55 AM HomestarJunior

But as Ive said before according to the leftists here its OK for France to prop up a murderous dictator for financially motivated reasons, but its not OK for the US to want to remove said dictator because money may be involved. And then the leftists wonder why they are though to be unAmerican


I hope you include the US in that "prop up murderous dictators" speech you just gave...
 
2003-03-13 01:25:50 AM  
HomestarJunior

Your worried about me because I believe in my country warts and all? Id say that makes you the person to worry about.

"Patriotism is the last resort of scoundrels."
-- Samuel Johnson

Which is a paraphrase of:

"Citizenship should be placed above everything else, even learning. Is there in any college of the land a chair of citizenship where good citizenship and all that it implies is taught? There is not one -- that is, not one where sane citizenship is taught. There are some which teach insane citizenship, bastard citizenship, but that is all. Patriotism! Yes; but patriotism is usually the refuge of the scoundrel. He is the man who talks the loudest."
-Mark Twain speech, 5/14/1908

"My instinct as an individualist and artist has always warned me most urgently against this capacity of men for becoming drunk on collective suffering, collective pride, collective hatred, and collective honor. When this morbid exaltation becomes perceptible in a room, a hall, a village, a city, or a country, I grow cold and distrustful; a shudder comes over me, for already, while most of my fellow men are still weeping with rapture and enthusiasm, still cheering and venting protestations of brotherhood, I see blood flowing and cities going up in flames."
-Hermann Hesse: Author (1877-1962)
 
2003-03-13 01:26:06 AM  
03-13-03 12:31:14 AM HomestarJunior
OK then how has it affected you Al?

Anyone you know?

Anyone?


What does that matter? The point is that legally the government is allowed to do it. So you have no problem with the government passing a law banning ALL firearms, but they might not enforce it so its OK?

Bull farking shiat
 
2003-03-13 01:26:10 AM  
KnightShyfte:

Boy Im glad you Dems (or Dem sympathizers as you claim)arent still holding a grudge over that election thing like you claim the republicans were going to. You sure showed us Right Wingers how much better yall would take it.

Besides since it would have turned out the same way even if Gore would have gotten his recounts does it really matter?
 
2003-03-13 01:28:09 AM  
And you doves who claim that nothing good comes of war remember that the internet was originally a military creation called ARPANET.

Yeah, `cuz having two or more computers communicating with each other is so revolutionary those fags at Berkley could never have got it work without the military.
 
2003-03-13 01:30:09 AM  
Mark Twain is awesome.

"Statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception." - Mark Twain
 
2003-03-13 01:32:02 AM  
Tadlette, you forgot some good ones:

A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.

--Edward Abbey

Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official, save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country. In either event, it is unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or anyone else.

--Theodore Roosevelt

And, my personal favorite:

He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.

--Albert Einstein
 
2003-03-13 01:33:42 AM  
Axisted:

I like your response better than mine.
 
2003-03-13 01:34:08 AM  
Dammit Axisted, you just made me spill my coffee. :D
 
2003-03-13 01:34:31 AM  
to allow evil to flourish all that is required is that good men do nothing..

I can pull up old quotes out of context to suit my purposes too, but that does not make for a valid argument.

What would be more telling here is that upon hearing Evil in my quote most of you probably thought of George Bush and Americas government before you realized I meant Saddam.
 
2003-03-13 01:34:34 AM  
"To be a patriot, one had to say, and keep on saying, " Our country, right or wrong," and urge on the little war. Have you not perceived that that phrase is an insult to the nation." - Mark Twain (1906)
 
2003-03-13 01:35:40 AM  
Wout its funding Axisted no, they wouldnt have for decades longer
 
2003-03-13 01:37:44 AM  
Wow HomestarJunior, you're starting to get it, Bush is evil. Maybe there is hope for you after all.
 
2003-03-13 01:38:24 AM  
Eraser8: If you want to measure the effectiveness of the current electoral system by the degree to which it reflects popular opinion, then yes, I agree with you. For better or worse the system isn't designed that way. Election of the most popular candidate is a desireable goal, but not the ultimate one under the current system.

I certainly agree that the current election system needs reform, particularly in the way ballots are handled. There is certainly a large amount of corruption, fraud, and simple mistakes that occur during an election. I don't know what the correct solution to reforming the election system is. I don't think that moving to a direct election system is necessarily the solution.

KnightShyfte: I did not mean to either support or attack the decision of the Supreme Court. I will say that SCOTUS is pretty distant from most party politics. Most appointed judges know have become more apolitical the longer they are in office. It is not surprising that most of the Republican judges agreed with the Bush's arguements. Most of the Republican appointees come from a legal perspective similar to that argued by Bush's lawyers, so they are naturally more likely to agree.

SCOTUS is really a pretty impressive bunch of people - with the exception of Clarence Thomas, who really doesn't belong on the court. He isn't half the legal mind that Marshall was.
 
2003-03-13 01:38:28 AM  
"A shoe in the hand is worth two in the bush"

Think about it.
 
2003-03-13 01:38:38 AM  
Oh, and Axisted, being someone who used to work at LBNL supporting DOE, NERSC, and ALS systems I can tell you that all those folks are certainly fags and very stupid to boot.
 
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