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(London Times)   Bush Sr. says no to unilateral war on Iraq   (timesonline.co.uk) divider line 721
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23010 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Mar 2003 at 6:39 PM (11 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2003-03-13 12:12:57 AM
whatever Big Al. Except for longer lines at airports exactly how has any real facet of life changed?

Sure a few middle easterners have had trouble in customs but what do you expect? If we just let them all in and it happens again you liberal whiners will try again to roast Bush for not protecting us against terrorism, but when he tries to protect us you biatch about the protection.

Typical.

When Clinton felt solo action was necessary in Serbia Wout even a by your leave from the UN the Republicans accepted it as justified and respected his position as CIC even though he was in the middle of trying to distract the public from his personal misconduct.

Funny how you liberal democrats were real silent then.
 
2003-03-13 12:13:04 AM
Big Al

I don't like beer... grab me some mary jane instead!

He'd be far more likely to be on your side, believe me. I'm the alco in this relationship!
 
2003-03-13 12:13:49 AM
Impaler
The terrorists hated us becuase of our freedoms. Now that the freedoms are gone, we're safe!

That is definately the funniest thing I've heard all day. I should say within 24 hours, because 'today' has only lasted 14 minutes.
 
2003-03-13 12:17:32 AM
Just goes to show that dubya is a complete nutcase.
 
2003-03-13 12:17:32 AM
I think this is all still just part of dubya's strategery.
 
2003-03-13 12:19:04 AM
I did not read this thread, so I can be included in the camp of the brain dead lefties. Un-informed and un-educated. I will comment and seem superior to you all. I will totally ignore history and be a brainless tool. That is the way of the liberal to be a brainless tool.

Also why the hell is harmonia back, I thought that (so-called)brave useful idiot was defending Iraq. Or did the little commie chicken out, when challenged.
 
2003-03-13 12:21:01 AM
I have missed most of this thread so far but right at the bottom I see this "you liberal democrats" written by HomestarJunior. I immediately know that there must be a flame war going on because

1. only right-wing american facists use the term "liberal democrats"

2. 99% of aforementioned facists are always angry because of the decline of white male power.
 
2003-03-13 12:21:31 AM
oh and Iaminsane:

Communism is stupid because it ignores ingrained human territorial instinct. Ownership is important to people, give someone a company car for awhile and it will be treated like crap, give someone their own car (or better yet let them earn one) and they will treat it far better.

Tell me to farm government land for a set wage that wont improve no matter how well I do it (because you are provided for by need, not by skill) and Im not going to be Johnny on the spot. Give me 10 bucks an acre and watch the wheat fly. Communism is a dreamland that ignores reality.
 
2003-03-13 12:21:48 AM
Rikulrn:
Again with the use of 'commie' as an insult! Why?
 
2003-03-13 12:22:52 AM
knitshiat read the above post by me you are one of them.
 
2003-03-13 12:23:36 AM
HomestarJunior
Thank you. I was just waiting for someone to give a reasonable comment against communism. You win.
 
2003-03-13 12:23:50 AM
Rikulrn:

If you must pigeon hole all politics into a simplistic left-middle-right scale, then you are guilty of ignoring history yourself.
 
2003-03-13 12:27:56 AM
Rikulrn:
Again with the use of 'commie' as an insult! Why?

Well you can point to the purges of a few million Ruskies, or the slaughter of a million Cambodians. But the left digresses. You are all morally superior than Americans, history has shown that time and time again.
 
2003-03-13 12:28:03 AM
Well, I eat dinner, then come back to take a look at this thread. Starts off with Bush Sr. this, Bush Sr. that. Then, I scroll down to see where things stand and it's bagels this, bagels that. Now I have to drive to Noah's in the morning. At these gas prices. Damn you all! Lox...Mmmmm.
 
2003-03-13 12:28:52 AM
03-13-03 12:12:57 AM HomestarJunior
whatever Big Al. Except for longer lines at airports exactly how has any real facet of life changed?


So because something hasn't directly effected YOU, theres nothing different about the country?

The point is, the US government has more control over you than they could before, and they are spitting on the Constitution.

If we just let them all in and it happens again you liberal whiners will try again to roast Bush for not protecting us against terrorism, but when he tries to protect us you biatch about the protection.


How exactly will you be protected from terrorism if the government can wave laywer confidentiality rights, the right to a speedy trial by your peers, and freedom of speech just to name a few? And lets not even get into the spying on US citizens, or searches and siezers, now possible without warrents. Constitution right? NOT ANYMORE!
 
2003-03-13 12:29:20 AM
Rikulrn
Pretty binary little world you live in, isn't it?

Do you do anything except spew bile?
 
2003-03-13 12:29:24 AM
But KnyteShyfte I would argue there that historically only the left or right are ever remembered. Who remembers who the leader of the left wing peacenik party in Germany was in 1940? How many can name an American political leader who advocated further negotiation W England at the start of the Revolutionary war? See what I mean?
 
2003-03-13 12:29:57 AM
Vrax:
You should've seen when I singlehandedly turned a political flamewar into a discussion on pandas.
 
2003-03-13 12:31:14 AM
OK then how has it affected you Al?

Anyone you know?

Anyone?
 
2003-03-13 12:31:15 AM
www.politicalcompass.org
 
2003-03-13 12:31:47 AM
"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. ... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
- General Herman Goering, President of German Reichstag and Nazi Party, Commander of Luftwaffe during World War II, April 18, 1946.
 
2003-03-13 12:32:55 AM
Oh and to the person who cited Russian atrocities as evidence against communism. Russia was really socialist. A minor distinction i know but still...
 
2003-03-13 12:33:58 AM
"If you must pigeon hole all politics into a simplistic left-middle-right scale, then you are guilty of ignoring history yourself."

No fool, why did the UN tell the Belgians to leave Rawanda? How many died because of that, who was the only country to offer troops? The US. The UN shoot it down.

I am glad the UN is being exposed for what it is. A bunch of hypocritical liars and dictators. Enjoy being sidelined while the world is made a better place, under Bush.
 
2003-03-13 12:34:33 AM
Looks like homestar likes those warm gov't hands strategically placed around his balls.
 
2003-03-13 12:35:41 AM
Cause The boogie mans gonna get him!!!! Fear is reason!
 
2003-03-13 12:35:58 AM
HomestarJunior
Also about your opinon against communism, that isn't all it's about. Besides, if the workers make extra produce, they would be allowed to sell it and keep the profit (from the extra produce). Thus people can buy their own things, as if they couldn't otherwise.
 
2003-03-13 12:36:01 AM
For the politically unaware Socialism is Communism W a layer of meanness and cynicism baked in to make up for the real life human tendancies that Communism ignored.
 
2003-03-13 12:36:58 AM
03-13-03 12:33:58 AM Rikulrn

Enjoy being sidelined while the world is made a better place, under Bush.


Please tell me you are joking!
 
2003-03-13 12:37:29 AM
HomestarJunior writes: When Clinton felt solo action was necessary in Serbia Wout even a by your leave from the UN the Republicans accepted it as justified and respected his position as CIC...

Quit it with the crack pipe. Republican talking heads like Rush Limbaugh said that Kosovo was wag-the-dog and was going to be another Vietnam. The May 19, 1999 issue of the New York Times reported, "In a victory for the Clinton administration, the Senate...narrowly rejected a measure to set a deadline for withdrawing American ground troops from Kosovo. Gov. George W. Bush of Texas had also criticized the measure, but even so 40 Republicans voted for it."

On April 28, 1999, 139 Republicans voted in favor of a resolution, which read in part: Resolved by the House of Representatives (the Senate concurring), SECTION 1. REMOVAL OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES FROM THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF YUGOSLAVIA. Pursuant to section 5(c) of the War Powers Resolution (50 U.S.C. 1544(c)), the Congress hereby directs the President to remove United States Armed Forces from their positions in connection with the present operations against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia within 30 days after the passage of this resolution or within such longer period as may be necessary to effectuate their safe withdrawal.

If that's what you call respecting a president's role as commander-in-chief, you are a nut case.
 
2003-03-13 12:38:35 AM
Eraser > HomestarJunior
 
2003-03-13 12:39:20 AM
Iaminsane:

You should've seen when I singlehandedly turned a political flamewar into a discussion on pandas.

No farkin' way! Surely you can resolve this whole Iraq thing in a snap then. Get them talking about pandas. They will all think warm and fuzzy thoughts and we'll have world peace. :)
 
2003-03-13 12:39:20 AM
My political views do NOT fit into the classic left-right political scale. I am pro government control of health care like the classic "left-winger" but I also share many of the same views on civil liberties as the classic "right-winger"

see http://www.politicalcompass.org for more details
 
2003-03-13 12:39:27 AM
Actually Iaminsane that was real life socialism as run through the Russians. In true communism this would not be so. Communism is very attractive in theory, it just doesnt hold up in real life.
 
2003-03-13 12:41:04 AM
Haha, I love when Clinton gets brought up by angry republicans.... I mean god damn he was a republican in democrat clothes.

I think they all hate him because he did THEIR job better than them.
 
2003-03-13 12:45:28 AM
When the Russian's in the cold war used nukes next to villages, and they were all exposed to radiation, you know that people didn't start dropping from cancer, and there weren't many birth defects until *2* generations afterwars? Granted most the people now are dead, and the soldiers who took place in the mock battle after they used a nuke to simulate a nuclear war(40K+ Troops running out from bunkers while the cloud was still rusing) it was years and years until they all died(I think something like 98% are dead now though) yet we use depleted uranium which is pretty harmless, and we are the cause for cancer in the world, yay! Btw if your interested in that kind of stuff, buy the 3 VHS set called "The red bomb" it talks about the making of nukes, and how Russia got al ltheir technology, the third tape is really interesting.
 
2003-03-13 12:47:01 AM
I think the Bush Sr. recommendation to get UN backing first is probably the majority opinion, from what I have seen in the polls. People want to make sure to cover their ass if something goes wrong, from missiles fired at Israel, to a siege of Bagdad, to tens of millions of refugees engaged in food riots, any number of things can and will go "wrong" from how the operation is planned.

Another aspect is that President Bush maybe realizing this, and this kind of statement from the ex-pres is political cover, who knows, really?
 
2003-03-13 12:47:32 AM
Too many people waste time arguing about whether one political system is better than another. The problem isn't the system - it's the corruption and tyranny of the people in charge. THAT's the problem. We should fix it.
 
2003-03-13 12:48:46 AM
Depleted Uranium is still 40% radioactive.

Its used in penetrating shells because of its high density and therefore higher kinetic energy when in motion. The problem is when a shell is fired into the side of a tank or a bunker the tremendous friction of impact heats up the DU and vaporizes some of it. Now there are little tiny molecules of DU floating around waiting to be breathed in by people miles around.
 
2003-03-13 12:49:20 AM
IE Gulf War Syndrome
 
2003-03-13 12:50:21 AM
In a sense you are right there WarOnReality. Not on most issues but on the Serb/Bosnia issue Clinton stood up and acted as a leader should. He took action and ignored those who stood against him, and for those of you remaining who think its only Bush the Europeans hate one of the countries that cried rhymes with Prance.

I didnt like much else about Clinton but he knew how to stand up for himself.
 
2003-03-13 12:50:45 AM
Vrax
Yes I did. I can't find it, though. It's somewhat recent, headline about N. Korea finding american spy plane or something.
 
2003-03-13 12:52:22 AM
I don't understand why the US didn't change it's electoral system when it became so painfully clear in 2000 that the old system DID NOT WORK. If they had scrapped the electoral college and implemented true national voting by representation where the new President is simply the person who received the most votes in the nation.
 
2003-03-13 12:53:20 AM
Thats it Bush Sr, send him to bed with no pudding, and ground him and his airforce for a month!
Naughty dubya BAD BOY!

*Smack!*
 
2003-03-13 12:54:02 AM
HomestarJunior
real life socialism as run through the Russians. In true communism this would not be so. Communism is very attractive in theory, it just doesnt hold up in real life

Further proof that reality sucks and humans still aren't evolved enough to handle a concept like communism efficiently. Or maybe devolved? Ants, bees, and termites seem to do something similar to communism, and they're some of the most organized and successful species on the planet.
 
2003-03-13 12:55:05 AM
Because the only people who can change the electoral system were voted into power WITH that system. The only way it will be changed is if there is massive public pressure for it. And most people are too busy working and living their lives to worry too much about it... until something really bad happens.
 
2003-03-13 12:55:59 AM
maybe they should have changed the electoral college system sooner so we wouldnt have ended up W Clinton either. Oh that keeps getting forgotten because the Republicans understood how the system works and didnt cry about it when it happened to them.
 
2003-03-13 12:57:27 AM
KnightShyfte writes: I don't understand why the US didn't change it's electoral system when it became so painfully clear in 2000 that the old system DID NOT WORK.

If Gore had won the electoral college with a minority of popular votes, you can be sure that the issue would still be alive -- because the conservative spin machine would never "get over it."

In fact, there were newspaper articles before the election that contemplated the Republican response to just such a scenario. Bush campaign officials suggested that they would do everything within their power to switch votes of electors or, at the very least, deny Mr. Gore the legitimacy of winning by constantly pointing out his loss in the popular vote. Talk radio and Fox News would certainly have demanded a constiutional amendment. And, the mainstream press would probably have gone along with the idea too.
 
2003-03-13 12:58:05 AM
Iamsane: No, not because it (communism) assumes that people are interested in working, but because it assumes that people are interested in equality.

They are not.

People are fine with everyone else being equal, but the inherent desire is there to be better than, well, the Joneses.
Altruism has never (and will never) been an evolutionary advantage in any species.

Under pure communism, everyone is equal. Sure some are working harder, but they are capable of working harder. Some people get more, but they require more. For better or for worse, this breeds resentment.

If you do have a case (in your example) where excess production yields personal benefits, then you are headed down the road towards a thriving black market capitalist economy. You will discover that people who should be working for X amount of work units, will really be working for X - N units, knowing that it will not make a difference to them personally. Or, they will work for X units, report X - N units, and sell the N units on the black market.

One of the reasons why capitalism is an efficient economic system is because it is pessimistic about human behavior. It assumes that people are motivated by self-interest, which is pretty accurate in my opinion.

You could make convincing arguments that communism is a more humanitarian economic system, but the market is largely amoral.
 
2003-03-13 01:00:36 AM
No we are the most successful species on earth, now or ever. And it is that same competitive drive that put us there. Wout that Karl Marx wouldn't have had time to sit on his butt and dream about fantasy governments.

And Wout the ingenuity of the US that is taking such a bashing here we wouldnt be arguing on the internet. And you doves who claim that nothing good comes of war remember that the internet was originally a military creation called ARPANET.
 
2003-03-13 01:01:12 AM
Iaminsane: Actually ants, bees and termites are the complete opposite of communism. They have an iron dictatorship. The queen controls all and is far more privileged than the drones or the workers.

Oh, and sorry for earlier the earlier spelling of your name.
 
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