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(London Times)   Bush Sr. says no to unilateral war on Iraq   (timesonline.co.uk) divider line 720
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23012 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Mar 2003 at 6:39 PM (11 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2003-03-12 08:12:06 PM
In case this hasn't already been said a thousand times, communists tend to be conservative. People seem to be searching for the word "leftist", not liberal.
 
2003-03-12 08:12:11 PM
Gelatinous:

My father was born in 1935 in Nazi Germany. I lost 2 uncles and an aunt in the war, fighting for a cause they loathed and hated. You want that to happen again?
 
2003-03-12 08:12:20 PM
that wasn't meant to be all bold.
 
2003-03-12 08:12:48 PM
If you are PRO-WAR, and PRO-BUSH, and you call those who disagree with you by any of the following terms:

Liberal
Hippy
Communist
Anti-American
Socialist

Then you have not made an argument. And you have revealed the depths of your own ignorance.


Here Here, Confabulat
 
2003-03-12 08:12:51 PM
Code_Archeologist,

It's always been my idea that we've treated Isreal differently because we still feel sorry over that whole Holocaust thing.

Maybe I'm just cynical.
 
2003-03-12 08:13:40 PM
I've said it before, I'll say it again.

The point of this war is strategy. The purpose is to cut a clear path from Turkey to the Persian Gulf in order to:

1.) isolate Iran between American-controlled Iraq and Afghanistan

2.) surround Syria/Lebanon

3.) move US forces out of Saudi Arabia

4.) force fundamentalist Islam into a destitute Africa, where it will be less of a threat. For now. Until Nigeria gains nuclear weapons somewhere around maybe 2025.

The oil is unquestionably related to this, as sustaining and gaining leverage for the entity "American capitalism" is the point of the war. But it is not oil itself that is the point here.

I gotta go force myself to read a book on COM. Keep the flamewar fires burning.
 
2003-03-12 08:14:35 PM
Meepzoid:

I made it clear in a previous post that I believe that Bush is not getting enough credit for his long term strategy for preventing islamic fundamentalism from destroying civilization as we know it today. Just because you are unable to connect the dots in the middle east does not mean that Bush has not. Is it possible that our actions in Iraq are aimed at improving condtions and seeding democracy into Iraq, The idea is that Iran will be overthrown and democracy will be planted there as well. Eventually the Saudi royal family will crumble and eventually in the long term we can stablize the middle east and put the mullahs out of commision in Saudi Arabia. When there are no Mullahs preaching hate of western culture freely in Saudi Arabia then this world has a shot a long lasting peace.
 
2003-03-12 08:14:43 PM
Bush Sr. was and still is a pussy
 
2003-03-12 08:14:45 PM
screw looking up a defense system .. read the unbiased scientific data I posted .. i can link to more if you want it
 
2003-03-12 08:15:39 PM
Cronehimself

Then you of all people should not being throwing the term around loosely. I have German Jew heritage myself, thanks.
 
2003-03-12 08:16:10 PM
fb-

By your logic, only the people who voted for Dubya deserve it. So, to play fair, should the terrorists ask before they blow themselves up.

"Excuse me. I'm a suicide bomber. If you didn't vote for Bush you are free to leave. The rest of you have to stay here and get blown up."


Wait a minute, I'm arguing with fb-? Why do I even bother . . .
 
2003-03-12 08:16:12 PM
DrToast
Fb-

Woohooo, let's just revert back to WW21 All civilians are fair game! Maybe we should just nuke Iraq since their civilians are supporting Hussein.


Isn't that pretty much the plan?

Oh, wait, I forgot: We plan to use our special magic bombs that only kill soldiers.
 
2003-03-12 08:16:59 PM
also .. a smoke detector is radioactive .. that's how they work, there's a little chip of (usually) Americium in there. The point is that it doesn't pose a health risk under normal circumstances
 
2003-03-12 08:18:06 PM
Gelatinous

Read about .NET instead. It's the wave of the future. Microsoft says so.
 
fb-
2003-03-12 08:18:12 PM
Wydok,

No.. everybody that pays taxes in the US supports him.

Ivan,

Haha.. good one.. thanks for taking care of that for me.. everybody cries like a biatch about 3000 people in the US dying.. but nobody cries about the 20,000 Iraqi civilians that are going to die in Iraq.. strange world..
 
2003-03-12 08:18:15 PM
Oh, wait, I forgot: We plan to use our special magic bombs that only kill soldiers.

Oh, wait, you forgot that we don't target civilians and terrorists do. You forgot that the stated goals of said terrorists is to maximize civilian casualties while our goal is to minimize civilian casualties.
 
2003-03-12 08:18:16 PM
me pointing a Geiger counter at something and watching it read radiation was scientific enough for me. That and the navy's warnings. Does your link differentiate between what or where the depleted Uranium comes from?

Medical waste that contains depleted uranium is dumped in Landfills. There may be different levels of "depleted" you know. Well you don't but that's not holding you back.
 
2003-03-12 08:18:38 PM
The last hippie I saw was running around Utah with a 15-year-old girl.

I'm not sure of his views on the Iraq War, though.
 
2003-03-12 08:19:43 PM
but nobody cries about the 20,000 Iraqi civilians that are going to die in Iraq.. strange world..

Nobody seems to cry about the thousands of Iraqi's that die as part of daily business under Saddam Hussein. I guess as long as nobody reminds you of it, it's easy to ignore.
 
2003-03-12 08:20:28 PM
03-12-03 07:53:37 PM Big Al

You know what I meant, smart guy- any democratic government, or even a government loosely based upon the ideals of democracy, must remain true to the beliefs of democracy or just admit to being a tyrrannical state, even if it does have populist support.

03-12-03 07:55:09 PM CashMoney03

Way to wave that flag there, boy. Let one incident rob us of what we are! You know how I suggest to prevent such things? You can't, but you can certainly cut down on the frequency of such events but not electing coked-up fratboys into positions of power, not being so ready to use military force when we want Our Way, giving up this psuedo-imperialism that has lead us to be the "World's Last Superpower (tm) (and de facto biggest target), and stop looking at them odd brown people in them non-English-speaking countries as being sub-human, or at least, sub-American.
 
fb-
2003-03-12 08:21:36 PM
DrToast,

Maybe they wouldn't have died if Rummsfeld hadn't given Dow Chemical the OK to sell $1.5 billion in equipment and chemicals to produce that weapons used to gas them.

Maybe they wouldn't have died if the US governement hadn't provoked them, then turned their back on them.

Maybe Saddam isn't the one to blame.
 
2003-03-12 08:21:43 PM
Dr. Toast, right now our goal is to bomb Iraq. Lots and lots of people will die, most of them fine people who never meant me any harm.

My tax dollars at work.
 
2003-03-12 08:22:26 PM
Xtremehkr
Gieger counters pick up any ambient radiation .. depleted uranium releases alpha radiation (helium) at a rate of 3 x 10^26 molecules per 238 grams every 3200 years (using a periodic table and the half life of depleted uranium)

.. sorry man, that's not harmful .. I'd use it as a paperweight if I had some
 
2003-03-12 08:22:37 PM
Btw, if US attacks Iraq without UN mandate (which seems likely to be the case), then Iraq has EVERY RIGHT to retaliate and also attack targets inside the US, by whatever means available? Blowing up electical plants, bridges etc in the US would not be terrorism.
 
2003-03-12 08:23:32 PM
Confabulat
If you are PRO-WAR, and PRO-BUSH, and you call those who disagree with you by any of the following terms:

Liberal
Hippy
Communist
Anti-American
Socialist

Then you have not made an argument. And you have revealed the depths of your own ignorance.


If a Socialist guy insists on being called a Socialist, then I'm gonna call him a Socialist whether I disagree with him or not. If I do disagree with him on matters of politics or war, I'd just call him "wrong".

If I believe the mantra of an entire party (i.e. liberals, communists, etc.) is wrong, and my political opponent appeals to the opinions of said party in his arguments, I would be right in pointing out the fallacies of his party of allegiance in this matter. I don't do it for the purposes of name-calling; I make sure my arguments are strong enough not to require them.

Also, I believe that most Americans against war now aren't anti-American, implying that they are deliberately supporting an action that would hurt America. No, I agree with O'Reilly on this one: I deem them closer to bad Americans, tring to support an (in)action they believe would help America, but would actually wind up hurting it. Sort of like a bad baseball player; he doesn't try to get errors, but he's still detrimental to the team.

And I only call someone a hippy if they actually dress, speak, think, and act like a Vietname protestor of the 60's. Actually, there are a lot of these people running around. What's with their affinity for bongo drums, anyway? (No, I'm not kidding. I see them play those things at rallies all the time.)
 
2003-03-12 08:23:49 PM
DrToast

What 1000's, when? where? The Kurds were gassed by Iran and everything else comes down to competing religious factions within the country. Why did these 1000's of people only become relevant lately?

What about the thousands of people currently starving in N Korea? Or the civil wars tearing apart Africa? What about Bush Sr not supporting this war?

That was the topic of the thread. What is up with Bush Sr? Does he have alzheimers now too?
 
2003-03-12 08:24:15 PM
This whole war in Iraq business is giving me gray hairs, and I'm only 19. Im sick of arguing about it and thinking about it and hearing about it every day. Unfortunately its about impossible to escape what with being stuck smack dab in the middle of a liberal college campus. So I've given up. Don't know don't care. I'm going to go back to playing NES roms now.
 
2003-03-12 08:26:07 PM
 
fb-
2003-03-12 08:26:23 PM
Xtremehkr,

Duh.. they are relevant because they are situated in an oil rich country.. North Korea? The Congo? No oil, no war.
 
2003-03-12 08:27:06 PM
03-12-03 07:35:12 PM Tottie
St.Jacques
...They're terms commonly used by many politicians, academics, and journalists.

Thank you captain obvious. And I still contend that these "commonly used" terms have been more frequently used by this administration than any other.

Oh, and by the way, which of these distinguished groups do you belong to? The "regurgitate whatever my political science professor said yesterday in class" group?



[snicker]

Tottie, since when did dictionary definitions (a) become the exclusive property of politicians, academics, and journalists and (b) lose their inherent meanings and become simply regurgitation of intelprop?
 
2003-03-12 08:27:18 PM
Ancalagon

Thanx, I'll pass that on to the Navy. And yes, when training for situation involving a possible radiation contamination I was given a Geiger Counter that only read low level radiation. Right. Sorry, it makes no sense, no one reported the amount of harmless trash left there after the war, only the 40 tons of depleted uranium. Do you think you might have swallowed some at any time?
 
2003-03-12 08:27:31 PM
Impaler, depleted uranium can be enriched, granite cannot.

/pretending I know what I'm talking about
 
2003-03-12 08:27:43 PM
03-12-03 08:21:36 PM Fb-
DrToast,
Maybe they wouldn't have died if Rummsfeld hadn't given Dow Chemical the OK to sell $1.5 billion in equipment and chemicals to produce that weapons used to gas them.

Maybe they wouldn't have died if the US governement hadn't provoked them, then turned their back on them.


So what you're saying is that it's the fault of the U.S. that Saddam Hussein is so brutal, but you're saying nobody should try to correct past mistakes and we should allow Saddam Hussein to keep doing what he's doing. Please explain the logic.

John Allen Muhammad received sniper training in the army. Does that mean he should be fried and allowed to continue to shoot people at gas stations or in parking lots because he trained in the army?
 
2003-03-12 08:28:11 PM
Can you guys believe I'm still at work!?
 
2003-03-12 08:28:28 PM
"But war is between soldiers, NOT crazed douche-bags and innocent civilians. The rules of modern war were put into place to STOP the sort of crap we've been seeing for the past 20 years (Terrorism, Ethnic Cleansing, etc) and limit civilian casualties."

Well said.

Terrorism is disgusting. The nature of its targets, and the way it cynically uses the decency and liberal policies of a nation against itself, make it impossible to justify.

"They're fighting the only way they can."

"If they're fighting the only way they can, why shouldn't we fight back to the best of our ability? It's only fair."

What a wonderful world it would be, eh? Especially if the victim nation adopts the terrorists' standards in regard to target selection.

Maybe the terrorists have a legitimate complaint. Is it safe or sane to appease them? Do we want to give any screwball with explosives the power to change government policy?
 
2003-03-12 08:28:59 PM
some information on your smoke detector .. just in case you really are worried about a little bit of harmless radiation

note that the alpha radiation (the primary type here, as in depleted uranium) dosen't even make it through the detector casing
 
2003-03-12 08:29:10 PM
03-12-03 08:23:49 PM Xtremehkr
DrToast
What about the thousands of people currently starving in N Korea? Or the civil wars tearing apart Africa?


So what you're saying is that in addition to getting rid of Saddam Hussein we should do more to ease the suffering of North Koreans or people in poor African nations?

I agree.
 
2003-03-12 08:29:26 PM
CashMoney03 what you are suggesting is a plan not for lasting peace but for American Imperialism. In such a scenario we would end up fighting war after war after war. And this is not going to insure our security in the short term or even the long term. If you want to beat the Mullahs then you cannot do it through force. You do it by spreading the wealth. Show the mullah's prime targets, the poor and suffering muslims of the world who have no hope other than their place in paradise, that with money they can find their paradise here on Earth. It is all in the sales pitch.
 
2003-03-12 08:29:35 PM
Fb,

but why is it so bad to want to kill people for cheap Oil and profits? Is that wrong? What if we try and say it is because they have WMD?
 
2003-03-12 08:30:06 PM
You know you're in trouble when Colin Powell is the voice of moderation.

Add Bush SR to that list.
 
2003-03-12 08:30:28 PM
Ancalagon

Check Impalers post and get back to me.
 
2003-03-12 08:30:47 PM
xtremehkr
you're arguing the science I'm giving you with "well .. I just don't believe that" type statements

.. if you don't want to admit you're wrong, just stop posting, but the sarcasm only makes you look like an idiot
 
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2003-03-12 08:30:52 PM
DrToast,

What I'm saying is, if you give a chimp a gun, and the chimp shoots somebody, you don't blame the chimp.
 
2003-03-12 08:30:53 PM
Fb-
Define "Terrorist/Terrorism". According to Us Dept of State:
The calculated use of unlawful violence or threat of unlawful violence to inculcate fear; intended to coerce or to intimidate governments or societies in the pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological.

Please take note that it specifically defines it as illegal activity. No where in the UN Charter, or any precept of International Law does it say that a State is committing an ilegal act by employing armed force for the protection of its people. Self Defense. Can we discern hostile intent on the part of the Iraqi Governemnt towards the United States? I think we can take that as a given. Ahve we seen other areas where the Iraqi Government has supported terrorists? Yes, in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. Have we seen an unprecendeted act of terror committed on US soil? Yes. Have States used national/sub-national organizations with whom they have NO ideological basis for association in the furtherance of thier own goals? Yes. Can we take the chance that hostile groups and nations, working together, will kill thousands more american Citizens? I don't believe so. I could be wrong, I'll admit that. But I HAVE seen the Intel. (read my bio) and the Us Government is NOT Lying. OK, I better get back to work;)

BTW: I used the State Dept definition because the UN cannot agree on a definition of Terrorism. Discuss.
 
2003-03-12 08:30:58 PM
did you know that 76% of all statistics are just made up?
 
2003-03-12 08:31:37 PM
03-12-03 08:30:52 PM Fb-
DrToast,

What I'm saying is, if you give a chimp a gun, and the chimp shoots somebody, you don't blame the chimp.


But I'll bet you take the gun away from the chimp.
 
2003-03-12 08:32:19 PM
Thank god someone has some sense....
 
2003-03-12 08:32:58 PM
Hey, -Fb, quit picking on those of us stuck in America.

I can't even afford to move across town.

But you're right about the rest of it though.
 
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2003-03-12 08:33:00 PM
Xtremehkr,

Hmmmm speculate about what they may or may not have? Hmmm.. bring up 20 year old history and totally ignore our role in it? Boy.. add some looney media spin.. outright political lies.. and my SUV will be waving its flag all the way to the pump!
 
2003-03-12 08:33:17 PM
oh god, will you all just shut up.
 
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