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(London Times)   Bush Sr. says no to unilateral war on Iraq   (timesonline.co.uk) divider line 721
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23010 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Mar 2003 at 6:39 PM (11 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



721 Comments   (+0 »)
   

Archived thread
 
2003-03-12 12:45:14 PM
that's funny. i wonder how the freepers and "dubya can do no wrong" are going to respond to this.
 
2003-03-12 12:45:48 PM
oh wait. i already know. they'll blame Clinton
 
2003-03-12 12:52:44 PM
I can't seem to pull up the article. Who else has it?

/goes off to look

/nope.
 
2003-03-12 12:57:11 PM
Bush Sr warning over unilateral action
From Roland Watson in Washington



THE first President Bush has told his son that hopes of peace in the Middle East would be ruined if a war with Iraq were not backed by international unity.
Drawing on his own experiences before and after the 1991 Gulf War, Mr Bush Sr said that the brief flowering of hope for Arab-Israeli relations a decade ago would never have happened if America had ignored the will of the United Nations.

He also urged the President to resist his tendency to bear grudges, advising his son to bridge the rift between the United States, France and Germany.

"You've got to reach out to the other person. You've got to convince them that long-term friendship should trump short-term adversity," he said.

The former President's comments reflect unease among the Bush family and its entourage at the way that George W. Bush is ignoring international opinion and overriding the institutions that his father sought to uphold. Mr Bush Sr is a former US Ambassador to the UN and comes from a family steeped in multi-lateralist traditions.

Although not addressed to his son in person, the message, in a speech at Tufts University in Massachusetts, was unmistakeable. Mr Bush Sr even came close to conceding that opponents of his son's case against President Saddam Hussein, who he himself is on record as loathing, have legitimate cause for concern.

He said that the key question of how many weapons of mass destruction Iraq held "could be debated". The case against Saddam was "less clear" than in 1991, when Mr Bush Sr led an international coalition to expel invading Iraqi troops from Kuwait. Objectives were "a little fuzzier today", he added.

After the Gulf War, Mr Bush Sr steered Israel and its Arab neighbours to the Madrid conference, a stepping stone to the historic Israeli-Palestinian Oslo accords, in much the same way that the present President has talked about the removal of Saddam as opening the way to a wider peace in the region.

In an ominous warning for his son, Mr Bush Sr said that he would have been able to achieve nothing if he had jeopardised future relations by ignoring the UN. "The Madrid conference would never have happened if the international coalition that fought together in Desert Storm had exceeded the UN mandate and gone on its own into Baghdad after Saddam and his forces."

Also drawing on the lessons of 1991, he said that it was imperative to mend fences with allies immediately, rather than waiting until after a war. He had been infuriated with the decision of King Hussein of Jordan to side with Saddam rather than the US, but while criticising the Jordanian leader in public and freezing $41 million in US aid, he also passed word to King Hussein that he understood his domestic tensions.

Mr Bush Jr, who is said never to forget even relatively minor slights, has alarmed analysts with the way in which he has allowed senior Administration figures such as Donald Rumsfeld, the Defence Secretary, aggressively to criticise France and Germany.

There are, however, signs that Mr Bush Sr's message may be getting through.

Father and son talk regularly and it was, in part, pressure from Mr Bush Sr's foreign policy coterie, that helped to persuade the President to go to the UN last September.
 
2003-03-12 01:02:24 PM
Ignore that last comment. The article finally pulled up, and seems to be basing everything on a speach by Bush (not Shrub) at Tufts on 02/27.

Transcript.
 
fb-
2003-03-12 01:05:14 PM
Hopefully Bush Sr can rein in his crazy-fark son before he takes it upon himself to destroy civilization.
 
2003-03-12 01:55:50 PM
.............wow. This is very interesting. For him to publicly state that he's not in total agreement with his son's actions is basically a public slap in the face.

I personally think that W is a crackpot and his father knows it.
 
2003-03-12 02:04:01 PM
lalalalalalala I'm not listening lalalalalalalalala
 
2003-03-12 02:23:23 PM
Damn his Communist hide!
 
fb-
2003-03-12 02:38:05 PM
Bush Sr. labeled 'domestic terrorist.' Ashcroft Homeland Security Service detains & deports former President to Guantanamo for 'unpatriotic dissent.'
 
2003-03-12 03:11:03 PM

Read the actual transcript (linked above). I think the Guardian puts a bit of a spin on the actual words spoken.

From the Guardian:

THE first President Bush has told his son that hopes of peace in the Middle East would be ruined if a war with Iraq were not backed by international unity. Drawing on his own experiences before and after the 1991 Gulf War, Mr Bush Sr said that the brief flowering of hope for Arab-Israeli relations a decade ago would never have happened if America had ignored the will of the United Nations.

He also urged the President to resist his tendency to bear grudges, advising his son to bridge the rift between the United States, France and Germany.


What he says is if the US had defied the UN and gone in and assasinated Saddam (as many people think should have happened) that would have shattered the coalition and probably prevented the Madrid peace conference. he didn't "tell his son" anything according to this speech. In fact:

And I now I stay out of the President's way and try not to complicate his life. I have an appreciation for the big job he has to do. And so I don't go around giving advice to the 43rd President of the United States. All bets are off when it comes to Barbara. As the President put it, I give him advice when he asks for it, and Barbara gives it even when he doesn't ask for it.

He did say (quoting the transcript)
I know we have differences with European countries, and they've got differences with us, some of them. There's a vast array and coalition with supporting the United States, and supporting the President now, but there's a couple quite obvious exceptions to that. But, I worked on those relationships, and I feel confident that when all this calms down, when Iraq lives within the international law, you will see the United States back together as allies and friends with both Germany and France.


At no time did he use the word "grudge".

I thought it was a pretty good speech, all things considered. And I'm no fan of Bush or Shrub.
 
2003-03-12 03:12:31 PM
Get me..... a shrubbey!
 
2003-03-12 04:35:43 PM
Times Online...... Why hasn't any major American media picked up on the former presidents dissenting comments? I'm sure it was just an oversight. hahahahaha
 
2003-03-12 04:46:55 PM
CNN mentions it here (as a footnote)

Didn't see anything on Fox or MSNBC

It was just a talk by Bush, not usually newsworthy.
 
2003-03-12 05:20:13 PM
All joking aside (if you can do that when talking about W), there has to be some thought about what will happen in the region after a possible war.

The stability of Iraq will be much harder to bring about if the US has to go it alone during the reconstruction. It's probable that allies will be more important then than during a campaign to outst Saddam.
 
2003-03-12 06:41:55 PM
Shut up Dr, you had your chance.
 
2003-03-12 06:42:57 PM
Didn't we just get through with this flamewar?

AGAIN?????? my god.
 
2003-03-12 06:43:35 PM
Hmm, interesting. Lots of people had just assumed that Shrubya was just a puppet of the first. Guess Dumbya is so bad, even the first Quakenbush isn't that impressed...
/Read my lips, no new taxes
 
2003-03-12 06:44:05 PM
That's it, he doesn't get any Freedom Fries!
 
2003-03-12 06:44:26 PM
Why is that the only time I can respect a republican, is after they lose an election? Do they just become smarter after they leave office or something?

Though to be fair, While Bush Sr. isn't may Fav president of all time, he was pretty good when dealing with issues outside of the US.
 
2003-03-12 06:45:05 PM
Congress now referring to "Former President Bush" as "Former President Freedom"
 
2003-03-12 06:45:35 PM
This is very interesting. I think I'll go drink heavily and do some math.
 
2003-03-12 06:45:48 PM
I think when Saddam called Desert Storm in 91 the mother of all wars, he wasn't talking about the size of it. He was saying that Desert Storm would literally be the mother of all wars to come after, the cause for happening if you will. And if Bush took office even after most of the US told him they didn't want him, I don't see how is fathers opinion would sway him.
 
2003-03-12 06:46:44 PM
Shrub is a moron. Even daddy thinks he's a moron.
 
2003-03-12 06:46:45 PM
it seems the Presidents Bush may have a complete brain between the both of them after all...
 
2003-03-12 06:47:08 PM
Am I the only one sick of the administration's catch phrases: "unilateral", "multilateral", "bilateral", etc.
 
2003-03-12 06:47:59 PM
Who better to know that Bush, Jr. is a complete idiot than his father.
 
2003-03-12 06:49:20 PM
talent does indeed skip a generation
 
2003-03-12 06:49:35 PM
Tottie
Am I the only one sick of the administration's catch phrases: "unilateral", "multilateral", "bilateral", etc.

GIS for "unilateral":



Mmmmmmm.
 
2003-03-12 06:50:18 PM
Thank you for finally posting this... I knew Fark was not a bastion of fascism as the corporate media seems increasingly to be.

Also, fark Bush, fark Rumsfeld, fark Rice, fark Ashcroft, and Cheney... i can't farkin see you or find you but fark you too.

In related news, Halliburton has acquired contracts from the DOD to the tune of an "undisclosed amount" for the "repair and renovation" of Iraq's oil fields.

"The President is Bush, the Vice President's a dick, so a whole lotta *farkin* is what we gonna get" (Talib Kweli)
 
2003-03-12 06:51:36 PM
Wow, this is incredible because not only his he W's father, but he's also an ex-President, so it packs a double-punch.
 
2003-03-12 06:51:41 PM
Funny how this does not appear in any American press.
 
2003-03-12 06:52:04 PM
AgentPothead:
would you PLEASE just get over it? If it bothers you *SO* much, then please tell us all exactly what steps you have taken in contacting your representatives in an effort to do away with the electoral college?
In simpler terms: put up or shut up.
 
2003-03-12 06:52:18 PM
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...he's in sooooooo much trouble...his dad is pissed...i saw him get yelled at...looks like we'll have to play army without dubya today...
 
udo
2003-03-12 06:52:20 PM
After the Gulf War, Mr Bush Sr steered Israel and its Arab neighbours to the Madrid conference, a stepping stone to the historic Israeli-Palestinian Oslo accords, in much the same way that the present President has talked about the removal of Saddam as opening the way to a wider peace in the region.

And this brought about an end to the conflict in Israel? No, it was more talk talk while both sides were rearming.
 
2003-03-12 06:53:34 PM
AgentPothead

Good point. This wont be the last war battle of the war either. Been in planning for a while.
 
2003-03-12 06:54:16 PM
I read this a few days ago from other source, I forget which. Pretty funny that it's not in any American papers.
 
2003-03-12 06:54:42 PM
Ha -- I always though Bush.SR was a liberal, wool-gathering leftist. (sarcasm.)
 
fb-
2003-03-12 06:56:01 PM
American press is too busy with demonizing Saddam and making war look like a fun little video game in the knowledge that getting the cud chewing average american to accept war will spell billions in advertisment revenue for them and idiot joe 6-pack tunes in to hoot and "'holler" at pictures of non-americans being killed.
 
2003-03-12 06:56:40 PM
Moron Jr.
"But , but But DADDEEEE - you, YOU PROMISED I COULD HAVE ONE!!! You had one! Why c-c-can't I??? YOU PROMMMMMISED!

Moron Sr.
"Barbara! Git in here! Git this noodle armed choir boy outta here! Christ! Cheney is going to have another anuerism and then where will we be?"
 
2003-03-12 06:56:43 PM
When Dubya's oil-grab gets too blatant and embarrassing even for George Senior---watch out!
 
2003-03-12 06:57:47 PM
God D*mn moderate.
 
fb-
2003-03-12 06:58:09 PM
US media is a biased, self-serving joke... period. Anybody that believes shiat-1 that they see on CNN/NBC/FOX/McNews/et al needs to have very large holes drilled in their head.
 
2003-03-12 06:58:14 PM
WIMP
 
2003-03-12 06:58:24 PM
SofaKing:

So is salmon a weapon of mass destruction now?
 
2003-03-12 06:58:51 PM
SofaKing
Mmmmmmm

GIS on Mmmmmmm:

A little bit ironic...don't cha think?
 
2003-03-12 06:59:22 PM
is this a ploy cause there is no way in h3ll that i am going to say anything good about bush Sr.
 
2003-03-12 06:59:46 PM
Ni
 
2003-03-12 07:00:03 PM
That's why Sr. lost - he alienated his constituency (read my lips indeed).

I guess the son has learned a few tricks since then.
 
2003-03-12 07:00:50 PM
Isn't it too late now? All of W's uppity warmongering has gotts the US into a pickle: If W backs down, then the excited terrorists will want to sock it to us, and if we move unilaterally, the world will hat eus and still want to attack us.

Someone please, just assasinate W and let's move on.
 
2003-03-12 07:01:22 PM
FACT: Bush41 never...eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeever comments on his son, the President of the United States.

The rest is he said/she said.

I guess people just don't know what to do with a president that actually has the class to realize he's not president anymore.

/scratches chin
 
2003-03-12 07:01:45 PM
WIMP!
 
2003-03-12 07:02:11 PM
Caller #1: "I think this war is about oil and a money-grab."

Local idiot talk-show host (Todd Schnitt): "I'm so sick of hearing this war is about oil. That is such a played-out argument. Just forget about the oil, ok? We all know this war is about FREEDOM. They hate our FREEDOM, but we're going to spread it to the Middle East, where it will bloom like a rose. YOU ARE AN IDIOT!!!!"

Caller #2: "You are so right, Schnitt. Those anti-Americans should just leave our country."

This is what passes for intellectual debate in the US, 2003.
 
2003-03-12 07:04:00 PM
Why does Bush Sr hate America so much?
 
2003-03-12 07:04:35 PM
What I dont understand about America is: Former President Clinton goes on an impeachment trial because he got a blowjob in the White House (which has nothing to do with politics), while Dubya is going against virtually everybody's wishes and nobody has thought about ousting the guy.
 
2003-03-12 07:04:46 PM
OUT WITH BUSH - 2004!
 
2003-03-12 07:05:21 PM
It was in all the American newspapers two weeks ago when he gave the speech. Those papers also reported that Bush Sr. said he supports his son's Iraq policy and that the circumstances of the first Gulf War necessitated a coalition.

Here's the lead from the Boston Globe's story:

In a speech at Tufts University interrupted twice by protesting audience members yesterday, former President George H.W. Bush supported his son's present policy toward Iraq, but also declared that during the Gulf War, it was essential to regional stability that the United States was able to maintain a coalition of 32 Western and Arab nations.

Doesn't quite jibe with The Time's story, does it?
 
2003-03-12 07:05:41 PM
So, D8vo, read much DU?

...You know, alot of commies and lefties have taken up residence on the fark boards...this very well may be my last post until you idiots tone it down.
 
2003-03-12 07:05:46 PM
Impeach Dubya!
 
2003-03-12 07:06:01 PM
Salon has a pretty good write up on it.

http://salon.com/news/feature/2003/03/11/bush_war/index.html
 
2003-03-12 07:06:59 PM
03-12-03 07:04:35 PM Tessie
What I dont understand about America is: Former President Clinton goes on an impeachment trial because he got a blowjob in the White House (which has nothing to do with politics), while Dubya is going against virtually everybody's wishes and nobody has thought about ousting the guy.
____________________

Despite what you see from the useful idiots on fark.com, most of this country supports Bush. If the election were held today, he would win. Again.
 
2003-03-12 07:07:29 PM
But how could this not make the news since there's such a liberal bias?

And wouldn't FOX News cover this, since they are "fair and balanced"?

Or what about O'Reilly, since his show is a "no spin zone."

/sarcasm
 
2003-03-12 07:07:50 PM
Tessie - If only he'd knock over a convenience store or something..
 
2003-03-12 07:08:05 PM
Tessie: "... while Dubya is going against virtually everybody's wishes and nobody has thought about ousting the guy.."

It almost sounds like you think the U.S. is a democracy.
 
2003-03-12 07:08:15 PM
 
2003-03-12 07:08:18 PM
 
2003-03-12 07:08:34 PM


am I the only one who thought of this?
 
kab
2003-03-12 07:08:40 PM
Damn, even his own daddy thinks he's screwing up!

Yeah, where are all the armchair commandos, now that someone who isnt classified as a tree hugging hippy peacenik is disagreeing???

/listens to the silence
 
2003-03-12 07:09:02 PM
Tessie:

Clinton was impeached for lying about the blowjob to a grand jury.
 
2003-03-12 07:09:15 PM
03-12-03 07:00:50 PM Drgeoffrey
Isn't it too late now? All of W's uppity warmongering has gotts the US into a pickle: If W backs down, then the excited terrorists will want to sock it to us, and if we move unilaterally, the world will hat eus and still want to attack us.

Someone please, just assasinate W and let's move on.
________________________________________________________

Echelon, are you listening? If you are, please go knock on his door and ask this kook why he likes Michael Jackson (pre bad)...also, please send him for a stay at Gitmo, I'm sure the weather's better there than in seattle.
 
2003-03-12 07:09:29 PM
Despite what you see from the useful idiots on fark.com, most of this country supports Bush. If the election were held today, he would win. Again.

Isn't this sad? What's happened to America? Oh yeah, fascism.
 
2003-03-12 07:10:04 PM
Tottie
A little bit ironic...don't cha think?

Yeah, I really do think.
 
2003-03-12 07:10:12 PM
03-12-03 06:56:01 PM Fb-
American press is too busy with demonizing Saddam and making war look like a fun little video game in the knowledge that getting the cud chewing average american to accept war will spell billions in advertisment revenue for them and idiot joe 6-pack tunes in to hoot and "'holler" at pictures of non-americans being killed.

What's your point? You'll watch just the same. Me, I'm going to have a BBQ.
 
2003-03-12 07:10:53 PM
He won't listen to a large chunk of Americans (who never voted for him but wound up with him anyway), he won't listen to pretty much the rest of the world (except Tony Blair and John Howard). Maybe now he'll listen to his own father... unilateral action will only cause the US more grief in the long run, as well as destroying any credibility the UN has left (not much, really, but there's no other forum for global conflict resolution).

And Tottie open a PoliSci textbook and/or read a newspaper; "unilateral", "bilateral", and "multilateral" are not catchphrases of the administration. They're terms commonly used by many politicians, academics, and journalists.
 
2003-03-12 07:11:32 PM
LittleCamel: That really sucks, from a non-American's point of view. I guess its just a vocal american minority and everybody else in the world (non-american) who want him out...

in other news:

Rest Of World declares pre-emptive airstrikes against Bush Jr. UN celebrates
 
2003-03-12 07:12:07 PM
Tessie: "Virtually everybody?"

Wow. And Democrats talk about Republicans overestimating how their candidate did in the 2000 election.

Everything I've seen show's there's no overwhelming majority of either point of view (not that there's only two points of view, either), much less "virtually everybody" being against the Administration's (to simplify: Bush's) point of view.

As for voting online to impeach Bush, yeah, right. I found this in the Constitution, Article II, Section 4:

"The President, Vice President and all civil officers of the United States, shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of, treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors, and we shall know this by petitions signed on the internet. Whatever that is."
 
2003-03-12 07:12:30 PM
LittleCamel - " ... If the election were held today, he would win ... "

I'm not so sure about that. The ones without jobs would surely vote ABB.
 
2003-03-12 07:13:16 PM
Little Camel: "Someone please, just assasinate W and let's move on."

Hey, say hi to the Secret Service guys for me when they visit you, okay? Thanks.
 
2003-03-12 07:14:07 PM
SquirrelWithLargeNuts:

Freep is thataway ==>
Don't let the door hit your ass...
 
2003-03-12 07:14:27 PM
I think Bush's strategy is simple - keep the economy out of the headlines by any means.
 
2003-03-12 07:14:27 PM
Sorry, that was drgeoffrey. Little Camel was just replying. My bad.
 
2003-03-12 07:14:42 PM
GHW Bush was a crappy, one-term President that got us into this mess in the first place, all because he "respected international opinion" or whatever. I don't really think his opinion counts for much.

If he wants to complain, he should complain about Cheney, who's running this show. I mean, where is the guy? In an underground bunker somewhere, plotting World War III?
 
2003-03-12 07:15:18 PM
Dark-Clark: Riiiiiiiiiight.
 
2003-03-12 07:15:38 PM
Squirrel:

We "Liberals" were always here. Freepers just need a target for cliches because their argument sucks.
And what's with the "commie" thing? How does a rediculous economic system relate to the current discussion?
Again, you're reduced to cliches and name-calling. tsk tsk tsk
 
2003-03-12 07:15:57 PM
Flg8or

You are a traitor for posting that picture.

And I am a traitor for laughing at it.

Hey, at least we're both still good, loyal, FLORIDA GATORS!
 
2003-03-12 07:20:24 PM
...You know, alot of commies and lefties have taken up residence on the fark boards...this very well may be my last post until you idiots tone it down.

Shall I uncork the Champagne now? Or is it Freedompagne?
 
2003-03-12 07:20:59 PM
Well, it's official. We're going to war.

Why?

Cause Daddy said not to.
 
2003-03-12 07:21:11 PM
Confabulat: Right on, mate.
 
2003-03-12 07:22:00 PM
DrGeoffrey
"Someone please, just assasinate W and let's move on."

You're calling for the assassination of the president of the United States? I would seriously rethink that position if I were you. Its not funny to even joke about it. You are the fifth or sixth farker I've seen mention that. It wasn't clever or original the other times, and its still not.

PS: Is that the secret service knocking on your door? They should be there soon. I believe threatening the president, as in calling for his death is not really, nor has it ever been, protected speech. Remember the flap John Stewart got into over his "Snipers Wanted" gag. You just did the same thing
 
2003-03-12 07:22:03 PM
How come, if you're not a conservative Republican, you are a LIBERAL??

What does that word mean, anyway? Are there really only two ways to think, in all the universe? Does this mean I'm a feminist, and a communist, and a homosexual too? If I'm anti-war, does that mean I'm a dirty hippie?

I guess so, considering what I hear coming out of conservative mouths. The sad thing, is that they must really believe it.
 
2003-03-12 07:22:14 PM
03-12-03 06:52:20 PM Udo

And this brought about an end to the conflict in Israel? No, it was more talk talk while both sides were rearming.


I think you mean it allowed the Palestinian terrorists time to build bombs and plan their attacks without the IDF watching over them.
 
2003-03-12 07:24:18 PM
Could someone tell me if this is satire or some kind of joke.
 
2003-03-12 07:25:24 PM
MorningBreath has a point, DrGeoffrey - given the way things are in the states now, you could simply be declared an enemy combatant and disappear....

Damn, just when you thought the evil Soviet empire was gone, Georgie tries to raise the corpse from the dead.
 
2003-03-12 07:25:46 PM
Thank God, somebody's gotta lasso this idiot and his cabinet. Maybe his Daddy can give him and his goons a big enough spanking they'll get it through their heads. It ain't a good idea cowboy. http://www.drparsons.co.uk/
 
2003-03-12 07:26:33 PM
What's with the Bushies and "fuzzy"? "Fuzzy math", "it's a little fuzzier now".



[insert yr own fuzzy bush joke]
 
2003-03-12 07:26:41 PM
Holy shiate...

I remember Sept 11/00...I remember the pictures of Bush lite just after the attacks took place, and the look on his face. I thought he looked like his cheese had slipped off his cracker, and thought to myself...Amercia should not have a President who can't control his emotions...Especially a president who has access to nukes and a seeming willingness to use them...

After reading this article, it just confirms my belief that Bush Jr. has a severe personality disorder. The guy should seek anger management consouling.

It's not troll baiting here, I'm sincere. I'm really worried for Americans. I hope you guys get rid of him in the next election. Don't care if you vote in another Republican gov't...just ship this nut off somewhere before he harms the whole world..
 
2003-03-12 07:26:41 PM
Some of you still think it is not about oil....

Read on you sheep...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,912515,00.html
 
2003-03-12 07:28:33 PM
No, Assistant_Madman, the Secret Service always investigates all threats made against the President. Always has. Always will. Has nothing to do with "the way things are in the states now."

It's like joking at the metal detector at the airport even before 9/11. They take it seriously.
 
2003-03-12 07:29:10 PM
Bush will not win the next election.. It is simple math. He won originally by a very small margin, and all he has done since he took office is annoy the moderates. The only possiblity of him winning is if the democrats select a moron to run against him.

I personally dislike the democrats, but there is no way I am voting for this christian conservative ass in 04.
 
2003-03-12 07:29:20 PM
NATO passes resolution stating that the US is in the hands of a war-mongering ruler and must disarm for the safety of the rest of the world

/flame on
 
2003-03-12 07:29:25 PM
Read an article last week that said if there was an election today Bush would lose no matter who he ran against.
 
fb-
2003-03-12 07:29:27 PM
I don't get it.. how can anybody actually still be supporting this administration?!?!

Jesus shiat farkpumper Christ.. between his father and former president publicly calling him out.. and the "unmanned aircraft capable of flying long distances and attacking the US homeland with chemical and biological weapons" that turned out to be abalsa wood hobby plane powered by weed wacker engines that can travel a few hundred yards is there ANYBODY that still supports our administration and believes a farking word they say?!?!
 
2003-03-12 07:30:01 PM
Bashturn, my favorite part of that article you posted was this:
"Also, the vice president has nothing whatsoever to do with the Pentagon bidding process," the aide added.

Funny!
 
2003-03-12 07:30:02 PM
"MorningBreath has a point, DrGeoffrey - given the way things are in the states now, you could simply be declared an enemy combatant and disappear...."

Oh jesus christ. If it's so bad, shouldn't you be off making explosives in the woods or something? Help give your charismatic leader more time to work on that 1,000 page ranting manifesto.. those things don't write themselves, you know.
 
2003-03-12 07:30:06 PM
SadDad: I remember September 11,2000, as well. Nothing much happened that day.

It's only about oil because the Guardian says so? Baaaaaaaah.
 
2003-03-12 07:30:23 PM
Fb--

Not anyone with a brain or a conscience.
 
2003-03-12 07:32:00 PM
Flg8or:

True enough - but in the past you were pretty much guarenteed due process. Now with the patriot act in full swing a simple declaration by the AG that the person in question is an enemy combatant and due process goes straight out the window - the way things are in the states now. It would be awfully tempting for anyone to have that power, and Ashcroft does not strike me as the most scrupulous of guys.
 
2003-03-12 07:32:13 PM
Oh no! This can't be! Who would have guessed that Daddy Bush was a flaming liberal.
 
2003-03-12 07:32:30 PM
Bashturn: I love how no matter what your viewpoint is, anyone that disagrees is a sheep. Interesting how that works. In any event, this war is not about making profits on oil. If it were, then we would just drop sanctions and send in American oil companies straight away. I don't particularly support this war either, but an effort costing hundreds of billions of dollars is no way to make a profit. It's not about the farking oil!
 
2003-03-12 07:32:56 PM
Flg8or: My mistake... I guess i should be a good sheep and get my news from Newsmax and Fox News...
 
2003-03-12 07:34:03 PM
Uh Bashturn..

Incase you didn't know Haliburton is a HUGE and I mean Huge company and there by is almost guaranteed to have gov. contracts. Secondly, incase you didn't know this, Chaney is the Vice president.. which means he's not incarge. Plus the payment are for previous work.

And The War is NOT about OIL. We don't buy Iraq's oil now and don't need too and the UK actually exports oil. The only country that buys Iraq's oil is France, which is exactly why they are against the war. Amazingly war does not increase a countries output of oil.
 
2003-03-12 07:34:20 PM
Bush is just another word for coont.
 
2003-03-12 07:34:33 PM
Scrotar:

Can I borrow yours? You must be almost done by now.
 
2003-03-12 07:34:40 PM
Here's some information worth knowing that you'll never get on CNN. Do you know enough to justify going to war with Iraq? Take the War on Iraq IQ Test:

1. Q: What percentage of the world's population does the U.S. have? A: 6%

2. Q: What percentage of the world's wealth does the U.S. have? A: 50%

3. Q: Which country has the largest oil reserves? A: Saudi Arabia

4. Q: Which country has the second largest oil reserves? A: Iraq

5. Q: How much is spent on military budgets a year worldwide? A: $900+ billion

6. Q: How much of this is spent by the U.S.? A: 50%

7. Q: What percent of US military spending would ensure the essentials of life to everyone in the world, according the the UN? A: 10% (that's about $40 billion, the amount of funding initially requested to fund our retaliatory attack on Afghanistan).

8. Q: How many people have died in wars since World War II? A: 86 million

9. Q: How long has Iraq had chemical and biological weapons? A: Since the early 1980's.

10. Q: Did Iraq develop these chemical and biological weapons on their own? A: No, the materials and technology were supplied by the US government, along with Britain and private corporations.

11. Q: Did the US government condemn the Iraqi use of gas warfare against Iran? A: No

12. Q: How many people did Saddam Hussein kill using gas in the Kurdish town of Halabja in 1988? A: 5,000

13. Q: How many western countries condemned this action at the time? A:None ; why?

14. Q: How many gallons of Agent Orange did America use in Vietnam? A: 17 million.

15. Q: Are there any proven links between Iraq and September 11th terrorist attack? A: No

16. Q: What is the estimated number of civilian casualties in the Gulf War? A: 35,000

17. Q: How many casualties did the Iraqi military inflict on the western forces during the Gulf War ? A: None

18. Q: How many retreating Iraqi soldiers were buried alive by U.S. tanks with ploughs mounted on the front? A: 6,000

19. Q: How many tons of depleted uranium were left in Iraq and Kuwait after the Gulf War? A: 40 tons

20. Q: What according to the UN was the increase in cancer rates in Iraq between 1991 and 1994? A: 700%

21. Q: How much of Iraq's military capacity did America claim it had destroyed in 1991? A: 80%

22. Q: Is there any proof that Iraq plans to use its weapons for anything other than deterrence and self defense? A: No

23. Q: Does Iraq present more of a threat to world peace now than 10 years ago? A: No

24. Q: How many civilian deaths has the Pentagon predicted in the event of an attack on Iraq in 2002/3? A: 10,000

25. Q: What percentage of these will be children? A: Over 50%

26. Q: How many years has the U.S. engaged in air strikes on Iraq? A: 11 years

27. Q: Was the U.S and the UK at war with Iraq between December 1998 and September 1999? A: No

28. Q: How many pounds of explosives were dropped on Iraq between December 1998 and September 1999? A: 20 million

29. Q: How many years ago was UN Resolution 661 introduced, imposing strict sanctions on Iraq's imports and exports? A: 12 years

30. Q: What was the child death rate in Iraq in 1989 (per 1,000 births)? A: 38

31. Q: What was the estimated child death rate in Iraq in 1999 (per 1,000 births)? A: 131 (that's an increase of 345%)

32. Q: How many Iraqis are estimated to have died by October 1999 as a result of UN sanctions? A: 1.5 million

33. Q: How many Iraqi children are estimated to have died due to sanctions since 1997? A: 750,000

34. Q: Did Saddam order the inspectors out of Iraq? A: No

35. Q: How many inspections were there in November and December 1998? A: 300

36. Q: How many of these inspections had problems? A: 5

37. Q: Were the weapons inspectors allowed entry to the Ba'ath Party HQ? A: Yes
 
2003-03-12 07:34:41 PM
It's not about the farking oil!

No. It's about Freedom.

Freedom fries.
 
2003-03-12 07:34:56 PM
Someone get that former Republican President a big steaming cup o' shut the fark up!
 
2003-03-12 07:35:12 PM
St.Jacques
...They're terms commonly used by many politicians, academics, and journalists.

Thank you captain obvious. And I still contend that these "commonly used" terms have been more frequently used by this administration than any other.

Oh, and by the way, which of these distinguished groups do you belong to? The "regurgitate whatever my political science professor said yesterday in class" group?
 
2003-03-12 07:35:14 PM
Hey Camel,

I reckon he didn;t actually win the last election. They just weren;t allowed to count teh rest of the votes.....
 
2003-03-12 07:35:37 PM
Honest_Iago : thanks for the love... But Do you honestly think that we would be going to Irak If there was no oil ?
 
2003-03-12 07:37:08 PM
Flg8or

Seriously. This guy is pitting the US against the rest of the planet, and frankly, that's just crazy....The hell with the oil, North Korea, France, Iraq or anything else. Bush is going to destroy the US at this rate. Economically and socially.

Anyone read Barbara W. Tuchmans "The March of Folly"...The Chapter on "Pursuit of Policy Contrary to Self Interest"..Remind anyone of Rehoboam?
 
2003-03-12 07:38:05 PM
Quithex

Awesome. I'm going to print that and post it at school. Thanks.
 
2003-03-12 07:38:13 PM
Is there anyone in America who really believes that George Bush is still not the President?


/attempt to understand this joke.
 
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2003-03-12 07:38:35 PM
Quinzy,

Actually.. 12% of the US imported oil in January was Iraqi. You'd have to read to know that though..
 
2003-03-12 07:38:49 PM
Quithex... I nominate you as the next president.

Here's to the real axis of evil... Bush, Blair, and Sharon... keep on rockin' in the free world gentlemen.
 
2003-03-12 07:38:49 PM
about the 'assassinate bush' crap. personally, i don't like the guy at all, but i surely don't want him dead. i think all good democrats should join the secret service just to protect him, because if something happens to shrub, we're stuck with cheney.

and cheney strikes me as one mean dude. he'd make dubya look like a puppy dog in no time. the idea of 'president cheney' chills me to the bone.
 
2003-03-12 07:39:21 PM
Assistant_Madman - I would, but I don't have the rights to it any longer. Teach me to trust them militia types, I tells ya..
 
2003-03-12 07:39:54 PM
WickedWanda

On the subject of Iraqi reconstruction; King Abdullah of Jordan has offered to temporarily help take care of things in Iraq after Saddam's ousted. I'm not sure about the sincerity of this offer, but it makes sense if you ask me (provided he truly has the best interest of the Iraqi people at heart). While I'm sure the majority of Iraqi citizens will welcome the change in leadership that the US-led campaign will provide, I doubt that they would be very trustful of prolonged US involvement. Another stable Arab nation who the Iraqi people are more apt to trust, like Jordan, would definitely have more credibility in the long run in terms of helping to get the Iraqi populace back on their feet.

On the subject of unilateral action; there are a multitude of nations in and outside of the UN that are backing US-led military action. Within the confines of the UN there's the UK, Spain, Bulgaria, Cameroon, Guinea, Angola, and Chile who are backing action against Saddam. Mexico is still on the fence, but leaning toward the US side. Outside the UN and in the Middle East there is support from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Jordan, and Qatar. Turkey, like Mexico, is still on the fence but leaning towards the military option as well. There are also the Austrailians, who firmly back action against Saddam and have committed troops to the region. That's thirteen nations backing US action and two others that are still on the fence, but are leaning toward backing action. Best case scenario, that would be a total of fifteen. Still, thirteen that are for action is hardly what I'd call "unilateral".

Maybe, just maybe the ambassadors and leaders of these thirteen nations know a little more than a bunch of left-wing Farkers embroiled in an internet dick-measuring contest.

*stares in the general direction of D8vo, Fb-, Drgeoffrey, LittleCamel*

That is all.
 
2003-03-12 07:40:05 PM
Will they just go to war already and get this over with...
 
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2003-03-12 07:40:34 PM
Here's what it boils down to.. 99% of the world know that Bush is a greedy, war mongering psychopath.

The other 1% is comprised of rah-rah, we're #1, Go Team! Americans that would still defend Bush if he was kidnapping babies in the Washington DC area, sexually mutilating them and drinking their blood to defend us from "Terrah" and "Evil Doooers."
 
2003-03-12 07:40:35 PM
holy mackerel, batdork!!. DanielVovak in non self-promoting post shock.
 
2003-03-12 07:40:50 PM
The only country that buys Iraq's oil is France,

ER UM no russia and alot of other countrys
 
2003-03-12 07:41:00 PM
Also, fark SquirrelWithLargeNuts. Fark him in his stupid squirrel nest. Perhaps he needs to invest in a larger brain.
 
2003-03-12 07:42:01 PM
Oops, sorry guys, and secret service lurkers.
I take back everything I said about wishing someone would off W. I really do. That would be a horrible misfortune and I, for one, would not stand for it. If W were to be hurt in any way, you will see me taking up arms and offering my personal brand of justice to whatever nutsack disagreed with his policy. Live free or die.
 
2003-03-12 07:42:15 PM
Bashturn: Honestly, they have such a hard-on for Saddam I think even without oil we'd be going over there. Which isn't to say he isn't an evil bastard, cause he is.
 
2003-03-12 07:42:59 PM
03-12-03 07:34:03 PM Quinzy
Uh Bashturn..

Incase you didn't know Haliburton is a HUGE and I mean Huge company and there by is almost guaranteed to have gov. contracts. Secondly, incase you didn't know this, Chaney is the Vice president.. which means he's not incarge. Plus the payment are for previous work.


You are not allowed to make ANY MONEY outside public donations and your salary. Getting money from a previous job should have gone into a blind trust, like the law states.

But then again, how many laws does Bush & Co. get away with and change anyway?
 
2003-03-12 07:43:21 PM
Amen Fb-...

If only americans would travel more, perhaps they would understand a little better... and by travel, I dont mean trading shots at Senor Frogs in Cabo San Lucas
 
2003-03-12 07:45:00 PM
Tottie

I don't study PoliSci, I am not a politician, nor am I a journalist. In fact, I study biochemistry, pretty much as far removed from politics as you can get. But I also know that when you talk about the US going to war alone vs. going to war with only Britain and Australia vs. going with the backing of the UN, eventually you're going to get tired of using long phrases like "the US going to war without UN approval" and start using the equivalent phrase "unilateral action." Of course the administration is using these phrases, because it is something the whole world is talking about at the moment, but you can't insist that they are catchphrases that the admin. has made up or somehow co-opted. They are being used a lot... that's the state of the world today.
 
2003-03-12 07:45:24 PM
That's thirteen nations backing US action and two others that are still on the fence,

But what about the citizens of those nations? The leaders of the nations that support the US are just ass-kissing because they want to be able trade and have a good relationship with us. The majority of the world disagrees with this war.
 
2003-03-12 07:45:43 PM
well we always knew daddy was going to end up back in the presidency somehow. who knew we would actually be wanting it.....

i'm not sure how much i believe this, it could just be something started in the press. to get gw more approval in the end. i don't think they'd be airing dirty laundry at such a serious time. but if it was planned, of course it would be in the press.

/thinking outloud.
 
2003-03-12 07:46:33 PM
oil has little or nothing to do with this.. Perhaps it is about changing the structure of power in the middle east to pressure Iran and Saudi Arabia to stop supporting this type of terror that could spell the end of western civilizantion as we know it. I believe if Bush has to lie and use every dirty trick in the book to lay down the hammer of american justice on these farkers that will eventually down the road change the dynamic of the middleast to be more Western friendly then. DO IT. No one wants to see any more people falling out sky scrapers and smoldering ashes.. I guess what I'd really like to know is if any of the hippies have any suggestions to prevent 9/11/01 from happening again? I'd like to hear it.

peace out.
CashMoney [midget farker4life]
 
2003-03-12 07:46:53 PM
Cronehimself
Also, fark Bush, fark Rumsfeld, fark Rice, fark Ashcroft, and Cheney... i can't farkin see you or find you but fark you too.

Ohh, if only:

Granted, it's from her younger years, but still... I'd inspect it!
 
2003-03-12 07:47:26 PM
Nhurley:
"The majority of the world disagrees with this war. "

the majority of the world at one time believed the world was flat.
 
2003-03-12 07:47:54 PM
03-12-03 07:40:34 PM Fb-
Here's what it boils down to.. 99% of the world know that Bush is a greedy, war mongering psychopath.

The other 1% is comprised of rah-rah, we're #1, Go Team! Americans that would still defend Bush if he was kidnapping babies in the Washington DC area, sexually mutilating them and drinking their blood to defend us from "Terrah" and "Evil Doooers."


I'd say that was one of the best trollings ever from the Master, except when you're laying down Truths like that, it can't be construed as trolling. Not at all trying to say that anyone that is pro-war/other military action is a brain-dead imbecile hick, but way too many in the pro-war camp fit that description to a T. And to be fair, the anti-war camp has its brain-damaged members too (ANSWER- way to discredit the movement right from the beginning pinkos; Babs "STFU Already" Streisand; Alec "I wish I were still nailing Kim Basinger" Baldwin; etc. Sean Penn gets honorary mention here too).
 
2003-03-12 07:48:42 PM
well outa here guys nice flame today

/flame out
 
2003-03-12 07:48:53 PM
H8red Hold on buddy... Chile, Angola, Guinea and Cameroon are not on the US side yet buddy...
 
2003-03-12 07:49:14 PM
The fact is that Bush Sr. is not going to come right out and say, "I think my boy is being a dumb shiat." But what he is saying is that he thinks that Dubya is making a mistake in the way he is proceeding with Iraq. The fact is Bush has been quietly saying this for over a year. The first sign that Bush Sr. was against it was when Bush's friend and closest advisor Brent Snowcroft slammed Dubya's handling of Iraq in the Washington Post. Snowcroft has always shown himself to be very loyal to Bush Sr. So one must ask ones self, why would he come out and criticize his boy, unless he knew that Bush Sr. agreed with him?
 
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2003-03-12 07:49:16 PM
Quizny,

US doesn't buy Iraqi oil?!?! Just France?!?! What the fark are you talking about you brainless shiat fark?

http://www.forbes.com/business/newswire/2003/02/06/rtr873019.html

"NEW YORK (Reuters) - The United States consumption of Iraqi crude increased by 24 percent in January, even as the Bush administration gears up for a war it says is not about Baghdad's oil.

13% of all US oil imports"
 
2003-03-12 07:49:28 PM
Nhurley: Even if the majority disagree with war, that doesn't mean it is the right decision. That's the difference between a gov't that does what the people want and one that does what is in their best interest. I've no further time to discuss this matter, but you should consider that thought.
 
2003-03-12 07:49:41 PM
I guess what I'd really like to know is if any of the hippies have any suggestions to prevent 9/11/01 from happening again?

Ahhhhhhh! Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11. The terrorists used AMERICAN COMMERCIAL PLANES, not weapons of mass destruction. The hijackers were from Saudi-farking Arabia, not Iraq. There are no established links between Saddam and terrorism. I repeat, there are NO established links between Saddam and terrorism.

I guarantee you that getting rid of Saddam will not stop terrorism. I'm sick and tired of people implying that it will. If anything, it will increase Anti-American sentiment and therefore INCREASE terrorism.
 
2003-03-12 07:51:08 PM
Fb-

The "Liberal" Media are too busy asking Celeb's what they think about the war so that they can turn around and bash them as liberal communists for having an opinion. Some conservatives in the news have gone so far as to claim that celeb's are "forcing" their opinions on us. If the media is not interested in what celeb's have to say they should probably not ask them.

After that the media runs a segment on 'What you can do to protect yourself' so that during the breaks they can run Home Depot ad's to move some more Duct Tape.

The Media is a joke, news for profit is a failure, it takes the ethics out of simply presenting what is happening.
 
2003-03-12 07:51:33 PM
Sorry, damn html.
 
2003-03-12 07:51:40 PM
03-12-03 07:49:28 PM Gilgaron

Methinks thou dost not hold to any sort of understanding to the underlying beliefs of democracy.
 
2003-03-12 07:52:45 PM
Nhurley:
"The majority of the world disagrees with this war. "

the majority of the world at one time believed the world was flat.



Gosh, I forgot that Bush is the brilliant, lone explorer of our age, ready to risk it all to better humanity.

/sarcasm
 
2003-03-12 07:52:54 PM
why not arm the Kurds and the Shias and point them towards Baghdad? or will that not make good TV?
 
2003-03-12 07:53:09 PM
Bashturn...

Obvioiusly we won't know until the vote goes down, but report right now, say that they're expected to side with the US.

Still, there are several Middle Eastern nations backing US action. Seeing as how they reside in the region, I'd imagine that they've got a better handle on what's really going on than just about any of the trolls in this thread.
 
2003-03-12 07:53:37 PM
03-12-03 07:51:40 PM Crotchrocket Slim
03-12-03 07:49:28 PM Gilgaron

Methinks thou dost not hold to any sort of understanding to the underlying beliefs of democracy.


You mean a democratic republic?
 
2003-03-12 07:53:45 PM
Chevron is the largest US buyer of Iraqi Oil, the blend is closer to what they sell as a final product so they like. There is also the Food for Oil program which the US is still participating in to get cheap Oil.
 
2003-03-12 07:53:48 PM
Bulgaria, Cameroon and Guinea are all onside?!

Whoa, I better rethink my position.
 
2003-03-12 07:54:07 PM
Even if the majority disagree with war, that doesn't mean it is the right decision. That's the difference between a gov't that does what the people want and one that does what is in their best interest. I've no further time to discuss this matter, but you should consider that thought.

The government should also respect and listen to the opinions of their constituents. Because they were voted in by these constituents, they have a responsibility to listen rather than dismiss them as Bush has done.
 
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2003-03-12 07:54:21 PM
Gilgaron,

What the government know?!?! They know nothing! They have nothing!

Their 'smoking gun, capable of flying long distances and striking the US homeland with chemical and biological weapons' turned out to be a farking balsa wood hobby plane capable of carrying no weight and flying a few hundred yards..

C'mon.. see past the lies..
 
2003-03-12 07:55:09 PM
Slim: Do you have any better ideas on how to prevent this? Do you want to see this happen here again? If you were in Bush's position and carried the weight of the choosing the fate of our nation you might act differently. You could at least have a bit of respect. I personaly belief that his goals and ambitions are the best for our country now and in the long run. But if you choose the believe that he is some evil devil worshiping power mongering madman I guess that is your opinion. However I would point out that I haven't seen many photo's of Bush with a shotgun pointed in the air or a sabre pointed to the sky. Who is the war mongering mad man? Take that in your pipe and smoke it.

 
2003-03-12 07:55:37 PM
How many tons of depleted uranium were left in Iraq and Kuwait after the Gulf War? A: 40 tons

I don't think this particular figure means anything. As far as a health concern, it would be equivalent to 40 tons of granite being left in Iraq. If I'm not mistaken depleted uranium = radioactivity of common rocks.
 
2003-03-12 07:56:35 PM
Hey CashMoney03... judging by your moniker you fall dangerously close to those money-grubbing monkeys that are leading us into this disgraceful display of imperialism...

How's this for a good way to prevent 9-11... Maybe, just maybe, we should stop provoking the Arab world and actually listen to their *gasp* justified grievances... Can you actually believe that aggressively attacking a regime with which we have no proven legitimate beef will DECREASE our chances of a terror attack? Do you believe that freeper? Btw, kindly refrain from using "peace out" as your farewell, you are obviously not worthy of uttering those words.

Oh, for more elucidation read the post by Quithex. Maybe then you can pull your military-industrial head out of your oily ass.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT INNOCENT HUMAN LIVES HERE
(oh, but you only care about the cashmoney, i forgot)

Also, on a completely unrelated topic, Cash Money Millionaires suck more than Jenna Jameson. Disgrace to true rapping talent.
 
2003-03-12 07:56:38 PM
How much taxpayer money do you think it took to buy Guinea's support?
 
2003-03-12 07:57:02 PM
Here's some information worth knowing that you'll never get on CNN. Do you know enough to justify going to war with Iraq? Take the War on Iraq IQ Test:

1. Q: What percentage of the world's population does the U.S. have? A: 6%

2. Q: What percentage of the world's wealth does the U.S. have? A: 50%

(which by chance, it also has the most freedom)

3. Q: Which country has the largest oil reserves? A: Saudi Arabia

4. Q: Which country has the second largest oil reserves? A: Iraq

5. Q: How much is spent on military budgets a year worldwide? A: $900+ billion

6. Q: How much of this is spent by the U.S.? A: 50%

7. Q: What percent of US military spending would ensure the essentials of life to everyone in the world, according the the UN? A: 10% (that's about $40 billion, the amount of funding initially requested to fund our retaliatory attack on Afghanistan).

Aww.. you mean those greedy taxpayers don't want to feed the entire world?


8. Q: How many people have died in wars since World War II? A: 86 million

9. Q: How long has Iraq had chemical and biological weapons? A: Since the early 1980's.

10. Q: Did Iraq develop these chemical and biological weapons on their own? A: No, the materials and technology were supplied by the US government, along with Britain and private corporations.

And France! Why did you leave out France as a major contributor?

11. Q: Did the US government condemn the Iraqi use of gas warfare against Iran? A: No

Yes we did, now you're telling blatant lies.

12. Q: How many people did Saddam Hussein kill using gas in the Kurdish town of Halabja in 1988? A: 5,000

13. Q: How many western countries condemned this action at the time? A:None ; why?

Where the hell were you? I remember the reports on CNN.

14. Q: How many gallons of Agent Orange did America use in Vietnam? A: 17 million.

Not enough.

15. Q: Are there any proven links between Iraq and September 11th terrorist attack? A: No

So that Mohamed Atta met with an Iraqi ambassador in Hungary means nothing?

16. Q: What is the estimated number of civilian casualties in the Gulf War? A: 35,000

But that Saddam put his weapons in populated areas means nothing..

17. Q: How many casualties did the Iraqi military inflict on the western forces during the Gulf War ? A: None

Sucks to be you doesn't it.

18. Q: How many retreating Iraqi soldiers were buried alive by U.S. tanks with ploughs mounted on the front? A: 6,000

Another lie. Leftist propaganda at it's finest.

19. Q: How many tons of depleted uranium were left in Iraq and Kuwait after the Gulf War? A: 40 tons

Depleted. Look up the word some time.

20. Q: What according to the UN was the increase in cancer rates in Iraq between 1991 and 1994? A: 700%

Only Iraq and not Kuwait? Very strange. But you said..

21. Q: How much of Iraq's military capacity did America claim it had destroyed in 1991? A: 80%

And how much has been re-supplied by Iraq, France and Germany?

22. Q: Is there any proof that Iraq plans to use its weapons for anything other than deterrence and self defense? A: No

Was there any proof there would have been a 9/11?

23. Q: Does Iraq present more of a threat to world peace now than 10 years ago? A: No

Yes they do, by not abiding to 14 UN resolutions.

24. Q: How many civilian deaths has the Pentagon predicted in the event of an attack on Iraq in 2002/3? A: 10,000

Right, because Saddam will see to it.

25. Q: What percentage of these will be children? A: Over 50%

For the camera no doubt.

26. Q: How many years has the U.S. engaged in air strikes on Iraq? A: 11 years

Your boy Clinton had a grand ol'time in 1998 didn't he?

27. Q: Was the U.S and the UK at war with Iraq between December 1998 and September 1999? A: No

But yet Clinton lobbed more cruise missles at that time than in all of the previous Gulf War without a peep from your twerps. Selective peacenicks, gotta love'em.

28. Q: How many pounds of explosives were dropped on Iraq between December 1998 and September 1999? A: 20 million

Ya, that's about right.

29. Q: How many years ago was UN Resolution 661 introduced, imposing strict sanctions on Iraq's imports and exports? A: 12 years

Yup.

30. Q: What was the child death rate in Iraq in 1989 (per 1,000 births)? A: 38

Hell, we abort more than here.

31. Q: What was the estimated child death rate in Iraq in 1999 (per 1,000 births)? A: 131 (that's an increase of 345%)

And how many palaces did that poor nation manage to build for Saddam?

32. Q: How many Iraqis are estimated to have died by October 1999 as a result of UN sanctions? A: 1.5 million

No, as a result of Saddam using the money from oil sales on WDMs instead of food for these very same people.

33. Q: How many Iraqi children are estimated to have died due to sanctions since 1997? A: 750,000

See above.

34. Q: Did Saddam order the inspectors out of Iraq? A: No

No, be he did directly cause them to leave.

35. Q: How many inspections were there in November and December 1998? A: 300

And at any one of those he could have offered proof that he did what he promised to do.

36. Q: How many of these inspections had problems? A: 5

Seems to me they all had problems.

37. Q: Were the weapons inspectors allowed entry to the Ba'ath Party HQ? A: Yes

Is there a point to this? The weapons are hidden.

AK
 
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2003-03-12 07:57:14 PM
CashMoney03,

Terrorising people with the US military, slaughtering innocent people and pissing off every farking country in the world certainly won't make that go away. The US is gonna get it a lot worse than they did on 9/11 if they continue down this course of action.. and they are going to deserve it.
 
2003-03-12 07:57:48 PM
Hey there, QuithEx, the mere fact that the answer to the first question isn't correct, yet is the easiest to check, sort of draws into question the accuracy of the other answers.

290 million / 6.280 billion = 0.046

or roughly 4.6%. Six percent would mean there are roughly 377 million Americans. That's off by nearly 90 million, or nearly 1.5 times the population of France.

Links for reference:

Current US population
Current world population
 
2003-03-12 07:57:51 PM
Impaler
pretty much, depleted uranium certainly isn't fissionable material .. it's used in bullets because it's almost as dense as lead, and dosen't deform nearly as much
 
2003-03-12 07:58:06 PM
03-12-03 07:04:35 PM Tessie
What I dont understand about America is: Former President Clinton goes on an impeachment trial because he got a blowjob in the White House (which has nothing to do with politics)


Bill Clinton did not get impeached because he got a blow job in the White House.

while Dubya is going against virtually everybody's wishes and nobody has thought about ousting the guy.

How do you figure?
 
2003-03-12 07:58:44 PM
Sounds like Papa has gotten more intelligent in his old age. Wise words, especially from a Bush.
 
2003-03-12 07:58:47 PM
Nhurley:

"Gosh, I forgot that Bush is the brilliant, lone explorer of our age, ready to risk it all to better humanity.

/sarcasm"

nothing about what i said indicated that i support bush in any way. I do not support him, or his policys. I was simply stating that your logic was flawed. When you take the assumption that anyone who disagrees with you is pro-bush, YOU WILL BE WRONG. Your logic is awful, so in the future you should at least consider the fact that someone disagrees with you because YOU ARE WRONG, and not because they hold extreme political views.

I am leaving.
 
2003-03-12 07:58:48 PM
CahMoney03: Forgetting something?


Your bud exemplifies your stand (as short-sighted as it is)...
 
2003-03-12 07:58:59 PM
Nhurley: I make the connection that putting our dick firmly in the snatch of Baghdad will allow us to insist our Arab friends not to support terrorism. It is that simple. I think has more to do with Saudi Arabia than Iraq. If one tin-pot dictator has to be displaced to ensure our saftey then it should be done.

peace.
 
2003-03-12 07:59:00 PM
The US should just buy the rest of the world and feed it big macs until it is too fat and lazy to do anything more dangerous than move to Des Moines
 
2003-03-12 07:59:17 PM
Cashmoneyhomonkey "I believe if Bush has to lie and use every dirty trick in the book to lay down the hammer of american justice on these farkers that will eventually down the road change the dynamic of the middleast to be more Western friendly then. DO IT."

yeah. try grammar.
 
2003-03-12 07:59:23 PM
In Canadian news, Jean Cretien's dad said "gahhhhhhhacggrrrghhhhhhh"
 
2003-03-12 07:59:31 PM
BTW, glad this made it to the main page.
 
2003-03-12 08:00:49 PM
CashMoney03:

At least one former diplomat disagrees with you. He was around for 20 years, during the presidencies of reagan, bush sr. and clinton. None of those presidents did anything drastic enough for him to quite in disgust - and I dare say the soviet union was much more of a threat to the US than terrorists are.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/mideast/kiesling.asp
 
2003-03-12 08:00:55 PM
So, has anybody heard any more rumors about Bin Ladens capture?
 
2003-03-12 08:01:15 PM
Vroomazoom:

I was showing that your analogy of war to the belief that the earth is flat is flawed.

We know much more about war than ordinary people knew about that composition of the earth hundreds of years ago.
 
2003-03-12 08:03:08 PM
Depleted Uranium is still radioactive, radiation has a half life of millions of years and there is no known way to get rid of radiation.

Remember the "Dirty Bomb" scaremongering? 40 tons of depleted uranium would make the Mother of All Dirty Bombs. Good going Bush Sr.
 
2003-03-12 08:03:14 PM
Its a strange world indeed when ol' H.W. sounds like the voice of reason.
 
2003-03-12 08:04:50 PM
Crone:

I've got news for you. This is Planet Earth and we are of the human kind and there is one that has always been long before whoring and taxes and that is WAR. We all suffer from the human condition there is now amount of 'understanding' and 'goodwill' that is going to protect anyone. The only way to ensure your survival in this place is by being able to destroy or deter someone from killing you. I know that is hard way to look at the world but that is the way it is. Take a long look a history or hell even this history channle and you will realize that this is they way of the world. I hate it too. But at least I am in touch with reality as sad as it might be. I believe in Peace through supperior firepower.
 
2003-03-12 08:05:11 PM
I make the connection that putting our dick firmly in the snatch of Baghdad will allow us to insist our Arab friends not to support terrorism. It is that simple.

As in, preemptively bombing Iraq or Afganistan would've made those guys who hijacked and voluntarily flew 2 planes into WTC towers, turning themselves into fine red paste, think twice?

ps: You're just scared shiatless at the thought of another terrorist attack.
 
2003-03-12 08:05:52 PM
AlleyKat: What percentage of the world's wealth does the U.S. have? A: 50%

(which by chance, it also has the most freedom)

Hmmmmmmmmmm.... you ever lived in Europe retard?
Maybe check it out before you regale our fascist ass state with that title.
 
2003-03-12 08:06:01 PM
BTW I agree that CashMoney suckors. I just think it is funny.
 
2003-03-12 08:06:06 PM
If you are PRO-WAR, and PRO-BUSH, and you call those who disagree with you by any of the following terms:

Liberal
Hippy
Communist
Anti-American
Socialist

Then you have not made an argument. And you have revealed the depths of your own ignorance.
 
2003-03-12 08:06:12 PM
the Arab world and actually listen to their *gasp* justified grievances

When the Arab world speaks out loudly against fundamentalism and terrorism and stops seeking the destruction of Israel, I'll be perfectly happy to listen to these so-called grievances. Until then, they can shove it up their "justified" asses.
 
2003-03-12 08:06:26 PM
CashMoney---


One more time: The 9/11 asshats were SAUDI! They were based in AFGHANISTAN! Their WMD's were built in SEATLLE, by BOEING!

Nuking Iraq won't prevent another 9/11. We're just stealing their oil. Deal with it.
 
2003-03-12 08:06:26 PM
Xtremehkr

unless the Iraquis are busy eating it, depleted uranium does not pose any significant health risks
some data for you

/back to the fence post for me .. this is a fun one
 
2003-03-12 08:06:29 PM
Fb-
I know this is probably a pointless commentary, but....
At no point, in any but a sick mind, would the citizens of the US deserve what happened on 9/11 to happen again. I am truly disgusted that you would say such a thing. War sucks. I know this. But war is between soldiers, NOT crazed douche-bags and innocent civilians. The rules of modern war were put into place to STOP the sort of crap we've been seeing for the past 20 years (Terrorism, Ethnic Cleansing, etc) and limit civilian casualties. Leave this stuff to the professionals kids.
 
2003-03-12 08:06:46 PM
Bush Sr shows occaisional flashes of reason. He did resign as chairman of the NRA after one particularly nasty Bruhaha. I wonder if Dumbya will go on to head the NRA next, Heston is going to start forgetting his own name soon.

Kudos to Clooney "Charles Heston announced again today that he has Alzheimers"

Dumbya would probably shoot himself, Mommy Bush won't let him do that.
 
2003-03-12 08:07:45 PM
Cronehimself, you really should attempt to meet some people that have actually lived under fascist regimes before you run around calling everyone you disagree with a "fascist". Because currently, your use of the term is pretty ignorant.
 
2003-03-12 08:07:47 PM
QuithEx:

So, has anybody heard any more rumors about Bin Ladens capture?

Um, what? When did this start? bin Laden may have been captured? What, did they find him during a traffic stop in Sandy, Utah?
 
2003-03-12 08:08:32 PM
Nhurley I'm not a hippie but I have a good suggestion to prevent 9/11. Improve our foreign policy in the Middle East. We have been shielding Israel from being effected by UN resolutions for over 20 years. Did you know that they are in breach of 42 UN resolutions?

Many people in the Middle East see our pressuring of Iraq to conform to UN resolutions or else while vetoing any sanctions against Israel as a double standard. And it is. This double standard that we are enforcing has created hatred and increased the power of extremists muslim clergy in the region.

So the question is why do we enforce this double standard? Because we believe Israel is our only friend in the region... this is a true statement. But it has not always been this way. What we are experiencing now is the push back from the meddling that we did during the Cold War. During that time we propped up cruel and corrupt dictators in exchange for helping us put pressure on the communists. And now those chickens are coming home to roost. But instead of trying to mend the bridges we have burned them by giving Israel unquestioned support.

And it is not that I want the Israeli government to be destroyed... because realisticly... Israel has proven time and time again that they are more than capable of defending themselves (anybody remember the six days war when the entire arab world attacked Israel at once and got their asses handed to them).

So the answer is... stop treating Israel so special, and deal fairly with the rest of the Middle East. There will still be people who hate us, but they will not be as able to recruit people who are willing to die to harm us.
 
2003-03-12 08:09:27 PM
I liked the original.
 
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2003-03-12 08:09:57 PM
Ender_rpm,

I disagree.. American citizens do deserve it. If they are going to elect, then financially support this madman, George Bush jr, the future Butcher of Baghdad then they are no better than any other terrorist out there.
 
2003-03-12 08:10:23 PM
So, Quith, should I show how most of your 'facts' on US and Iraq are false line by line, or just call bullshiat and leave it at that?
 
2003-03-12 08:11:30 PM
Fb-

Woohooo, let's just revert back to WW21 All civilians are fair game! Maybe we should just nuke Iraq since their civlians are supporting Hussein.
 
2003-03-12 08:11:35 PM
Ancalagon </b?

When I was in the Navy for 4.5 years we would fire a ship's defense system that used depleted uranium rounds. Look up the Phalanx defense system.

Everyone on the ship was specifically warned about touching any spent casings found on the ship. During General Quarters training we would occaisionally train for an attack that involved a chemical or nuclear attack. The ship was enclosed and could support it's crew from within.

When you point a Geiger counter at a depleted uranium round casing it definately registers radiation. Why else would we leave 40 ton there if we could have just dumped it overboard on the way home?
 
2003-03-12 08:12:06 PM
In case this hasn't already been said a thousand times, communists tend to be conservative. People seem to be searching for the word "leftist", not liberal.
 
2003-03-12 08:12:11 PM
Gelatinous:

My father was born in 1935 in Nazi Germany. I lost 2 uncles and an aunt in the war, fighting for a cause they loathed and hated. You want that to happen again?
 
2003-03-12 08:12:20 PM
that wasn't meant to be all bold.
 
2003-03-12 08:12:48 PM
If you are PRO-WAR, and PRO-BUSH, and you call those who disagree with you by any of the following terms:

Liberal
Hippy
Communist
Anti-American
Socialist

Then you have not made an argument. And you have revealed the depths of your own ignorance.


Here Here, Confabulat
 
2003-03-12 08:12:51 PM
Code_Archeologist,

It's always been my idea that we've treated Isreal differently because we still feel sorry over that whole Holocaust thing.

Maybe I'm just cynical.
 
2003-03-12 08:13:40 PM
I've said it before, I'll say it again.

The point of this war is strategy. The purpose is to cut a clear path from Turkey to the Persian Gulf in order to:

1.) isolate Iran between American-controlled Iraq and Afghanistan

2.) surround Syria/Lebanon

3.) move US forces out of Saudi Arabia

4.) force fundamentalist Islam into a destitute Africa, where it will be less of a threat. For now. Until Nigeria gains nuclear weapons somewhere around maybe 2025.

The oil is unquestionably related to this, as sustaining and gaining leverage for the entity "American capitalism" is the point of the war. But it is not oil itself that is the point here.

I gotta go force myself to read a book on COM. Keep the flamewar fires burning.
 
2003-03-12 08:14:35 PM
Meepzoid:

I made it clear in a previous post that I believe that Bush is not getting enough credit for his long term strategy for preventing islamic fundamentalism from destroying civilization as we know it today. Just because you are unable to connect the dots in the middle east does not mean that Bush has not. Is it possible that our actions in Iraq are aimed at improving condtions and seeding democracy into Iraq, The idea is that Iran will be overthrown and democracy will be planted there as well. Eventually the Saudi royal family will crumble and eventually in the long term we can stablize the middle east and put the mullahs out of commision in Saudi Arabia. When there are no Mullahs preaching hate of western culture freely in Saudi Arabia then this world has a shot a long lasting peace.
 
2003-03-12 08:14:43 PM
Bush Sr. was and still is a pussy
 
2003-03-12 08:14:45 PM
screw looking up a defense system .. read the unbiased scientific data I posted .. i can link to more if you want it
 
2003-03-12 08:15:39 PM
Cronehimself

Then you of all people should not being throwing the term around loosely. I have German Jew heritage myself, thanks.
 
2003-03-12 08:16:10 PM
fb-

By your logic, only the people who voted for Dubya deserve it. So, to play fair, should the terrorists ask before they blow themselves up.

"Excuse me. I'm a suicide bomber. If you didn't vote for Bush you are free to leave. The rest of you have to stay here and get blown up."


Wait a minute, I'm arguing with fb-? Why do I even bother . . .
 
2003-03-12 08:16:12 PM
DrToast
Fb-

Woohooo, let's just revert back to WW21 All civilians are fair game! Maybe we should just nuke Iraq since their civilians are supporting Hussein.


Isn't that pretty much the plan?

Oh, wait, I forgot: We plan to use our special magic bombs that only kill soldiers.
 
2003-03-12 08:16:59 PM
also .. a smoke detector is radioactive .. that's how they work, there's a little chip of (usually) Americium in there. The point is that it doesn't pose a health risk under normal circumstances
 
2003-03-12 08:18:06 PM
Gelatinous

Read about .NET instead. It's the wave of the future. Microsoft says so.
 
fb-
2003-03-12 08:18:12 PM
Wydok,

No.. everybody that pays taxes in the US supports him.

Ivan,

Haha.. good one.. thanks for taking care of that for me.. everybody cries like a biatch about 3000 people in the US dying.. but nobody cries about the 20,000 Iraqi civilians that are going to die in Iraq.. strange world..
 
2003-03-12 08:18:15 PM
Oh, wait, I forgot: We plan to use our special magic bombs that only kill soldiers.

Oh, wait, you forgot that we don't target civilians and terrorists do. You forgot that the stated goals of said terrorists is to maximize civilian casualties while our goal is to minimize civilian casualties.
 
2003-03-12 08:18:16 PM
me pointing a Geiger counter at something and watching it read radiation was scientific enough for me. That and the navy's warnings. Does your link differentiate between what or where the depleted Uranium comes from?

Medical waste that contains depleted uranium is dumped in Landfills. There may be different levels of "depleted" you know. Well you don't but that's not holding you back.
 
2003-03-12 08:18:38 PM
The last hippie I saw was running around Utah with a 15-year-old girl.

I'm not sure of his views on the Iraq War, though.
 
2003-03-12 08:19:43 PM
but nobody cries about the 20,000 Iraqi civilians that are going to die in Iraq.. strange world..

Nobody seems to cry about the thousands of Iraqi's that die as part of daily business under Saddam Hussein. I guess as long as nobody reminds you of it, it's easy to ignore.
 
2003-03-12 08:20:28 PM
03-12-03 07:53:37 PM Big Al

You know what I meant, smart guy- any democratic government, or even a government loosely based upon the ideals of democracy, must remain true to the beliefs of democracy or just admit to being a tyrrannical state, even if it does have populist support.

03-12-03 07:55:09 PM CashMoney03

Way to wave that flag there, boy. Let one incident rob us of what we are! You know how I suggest to prevent such things? You can't, but you can certainly cut down on the frequency of such events but not electing coked-up fratboys into positions of power, not being so ready to use military force when we want Our Way, giving up this psuedo-imperialism that has lead us to be the "World's Last Superpower (tm) (and de facto biggest target), and stop looking at them odd brown people in them non-English-speaking countries as being sub-human, or at least, sub-American.
 
fb-
2003-03-12 08:21:36 PM
DrToast,

Maybe they wouldn't have died if Rummsfeld hadn't given Dow Chemical the OK to sell $1.5 billion in equipment and chemicals to produce that weapons used to gas them.

Maybe they wouldn't have died if the US governement hadn't provoked them, then turned their back on them.

Maybe Saddam isn't the one to blame.
 
2003-03-12 08:21:43 PM
Dr. Toast, right now our goal is to bomb Iraq. Lots and lots of people will die, most of them fine people who never meant me any harm.

My tax dollars at work.
 
2003-03-12 08:22:26 PM
Xtremehkr
Gieger counters pick up any ambient radiation .. depleted uranium releases alpha radiation (helium) at a rate of 3 x 10^26 molecules per 238 grams every 3200 years (using a periodic table and the half life of depleted uranium)

.. sorry man, that's not harmful .. I'd use it as a paperweight if I had some
 
2003-03-12 08:22:37 PM
Btw, if US attacks Iraq without UN mandate (which seems likely to be the case), then Iraq has EVERY RIGHT to retaliate and also attack targets inside the US, by whatever means available? Blowing up electical plants, bridges etc in the US would not be terrorism.
 
2003-03-12 08:23:32 PM
Confabulat
If you are PRO-WAR, and PRO-BUSH, and you call those who disagree with you by any of the following terms:

Liberal
Hippy
Communist
Anti-American
Socialist

Then you have not made an argument. And you have revealed the depths of your own ignorance.


If a Socialist guy insists on being called a Socialist, then I'm gonna call him a Socialist whether I disagree with him or not. If I do disagree with him on matters of politics or war, I'd just call him "wrong".

If I believe the mantra of an entire party (i.e. liberals, communists, etc.) is wrong, and my political opponent appeals to the opinions of said party in his arguments, I would be right in pointing out the fallacies of his party of allegiance in this matter. I don't do it for the purposes of name-calling; I make sure my arguments are strong enough not to require them.

Also, I believe that most Americans against war now aren't anti-American, implying that they are deliberately supporting an action that would hurt America. No, I agree with O'Reilly on this one: I deem them closer to bad Americans, tring to support an (in)action they believe would help America, but would actually wind up hurting it. Sort of like a bad baseball player; he doesn't try to get errors, but he's still detrimental to the team.

And I only call someone a hippy if they actually dress, speak, think, and act like a Vietname protestor of the 60's. Actually, there are a lot of these people running around. What's with their affinity for bongo drums, anyway? (No, I'm not kidding. I see them play those things at rallies all the time.)
 
2003-03-12 08:23:49 PM
DrToast

What 1000's, when? where? The Kurds were gassed by Iran and everything else comes down to competing religious factions within the country. Why did these 1000's of people only become relevant lately?

What about the thousands of people currently starving in N Korea? Or the civil wars tearing apart Africa? What about Bush Sr not supporting this war?

That was the topic of the thread. What is up with Bush Sr? Does he have alzheimers now too?
 
2003-03-12 08:24:15 PM
This whole war in Iraq business is giving me gray hairs, and I'm only 19. Im sick of arguing about it and thinking about it and hearing about it every day. Unfortunately its about impossible to escape what with being stuck smack dab in the middle of a liberal college campus. So I've given up. Don't know don't care. I'm going to go back to playing NES roms now.
 
2003-03-12 08:26:07 PM
 
fb-
2003-03-12 08:26:23 PM
Xtremehkr,

Duh.. they are relevant because they are situated in an oil rich country.. North Korea? The Congo? No oil, no war.
 
2003-03-12 08:27:06 PM
03-12-03 07:35:12 PM Tottie
St.Jacques
...They're terms commonly used by many politicians, academics, and journalists.

Thank you captain obvious. And I still contend that these "commonly used" terms have been more frequently used by this administration than any other.

Oh, and by the way, which of these distinguished groups do you belong to? The "regurgitate whatever my political science professor said yesterday in class" group?



[snicker]

Tottie, since when did dictionary definitions (a) become the exclusive property of politicians, academics, and journalists and (b) lose their inherent meanings and become simply regurgitation of intelprop?
 
2003-03-12 08:27:18 PM
Ancalagon

Thanx, I'll pass that on to the Navy. And yes, when training for situation involving a possible radiation contamination I was given a Geiger Counter that only read low level radiation. Right. Sorry, it makes no sense, no one reported the amount of harmless trash left there after the war, only the 40 tons of depleted uranium. Do you think you might have swallowed some at any time?
 
2003-03-12 08:27:31 PM
Impaler, depleted uranium can be enriched, granite cannot.

/pretending I know what I'm talking about
 
2003-03-12 08:27:43 PM
03-12-03 08:21:36 PM Fb-
DrToast,
Maybe they wouldn't have died if Rummsfeld hadn't given Dow Chemical the OK to sell $1.5 billion in equipment and chemicals to produce that weapons used to gas them.

Maybe they wouldn't have died if the US governement hadn't provoked them, then turned their back on them.


So what you're saying is that it's the fault of the U.S. that Saddam Hussein is so brutal, but you're saying nobody should try to correct past mistakes and we should allow Saddam Hussein to keep doing what he's doing. Please explain the logic.

John Allen Muhammad received sniper training in the army. Does that mean he should be fried and allowed to continue to shoot people at gas stations or in parking lots because he trained in the army?
 
2003-03-12 08:28:11 PM
Can you guys believe I'm still at work!?
 
2003-03-12 08:28:28 PM
"But war is between soldiers, NOT crazed douche-bags and innocent civilians. The rules of modern war were put into place to STOP the sort of crap we've been seeing for the past 20 years (Terrorism, Ethnic Cleansing, etc) and limit civilian casualties."

Well said.

Terrorism is disgusting. The nature of its targets, and the way it cynically uses the decency and liberal policies of a nation against itself, make it impossible to justify.

"They're fighting the only way they can."

"If they're fighting the only way they can, why shouldn't we fight back to the best of our ability? It's only fair."

What a wonderful world it would be, eh? Especially if the victim nation adopts the terrorists' standards in regard to target selection.

Maybe the terrorists have a legitimate complaint. Is it safe or sane to appease them? Do we want to give any screwball with explosives the power to change government policy?
 
2003-03-12 08:28:59 PM
some information on your smoke detector .. just in case you really are worried about a little bit of harmless radiation

note that the alpha radiation (the primary type here, as in depleted uranium) dosen't even make it through the detector casing
 
2003-03-12 08:29:10 PM
03-12-03 08:23:49 PM Xtremehkr
DrToast
What about the thousands of people currently starving in N Korea? Or the civil wars tearing apart Africa?


So what you're saying is that in addition to getting rid of Saddam Hussein we should do more to ease the suffering of North Koreans or people in poor African nations?

I agree.
 
2003-03-12 08:29:26 PM
CashMoney03 what you are suggesting is a plan not for lasting peace but for American Imperialism. In such a scenario we would end up fighting war after war after war. And this is not going to insure our security in the short term or even the long term. If you want to beat the Mullahs then you cannot do it through force. You do it by spreading the wealth. Show the mullah's prime targets, the poor and suffering muslims of the world who have no hope other than their place in paradise, that with money they can find their paradise here on Earth. It is all in the sales pitch.
 
2003-03-12 08:29:35 PM
Fb,

but why is it so bad to want to kill people for cheap Oil and profits? Is that wrong? What if we try and say it is because they have WMD?
 
2003-03-12 08:30:06 PM
You know you're in trouble when Colin Powell is the voice of moderation.

Add Bush SR to that list.
 
2003-03-12 08:30:28 PM
Ancalagon

Check Impalers post and get back to me.
 
2003-03-12 08:30:47 PM
xtremehkr
you're arguing the science I'm giving you with "well .. I just don't believe that" type statements

.. if you don't want to admit you're wrong, just stop posting, but the sarcasm only makes you look like an idiot
 
fb-
2003-03-12 08:30:52 PM
DrToast,

What I'm saying is, if you give a chimp a gun, and the chimp shoots somebody, you don't blame the chimp.
 
2003-03-12 08:30:53 PM
Fb-
Define "Terrorist/Terrorism". According to Us Dept of State:
The calculated use of unlawful violence or threat of unlawful violence to inculcate fear; intended to coerce or to intimidate governments or societies in the pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological.

Please take note that it specifically defines it as illegal activity. No where in the UN Charter, or any precept of International Law does it say that a State is committing an ilegal act by employing armed force for the protection of its people. Self Defense. Can we discern hostile intent on the part of the Iraqi Governemnt towards the United States? I think we can take that as a given. Ahve we seen other areas where the Iraqi Government has supported terrorists? Yes, in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. Have we seen an unprecendeted act of terror committed on US soil? Yes. Have States used national/sub-national organizations with whom they have NO ideological basis for association in the furtherance of thier own goals? Yes. Can we take the chance that hostile groups and nations, working together, will kill thousands more american Citizens? I don't believe so. I could be wrong, I'll admit that. But I HAVE seen the Intel. (read my bio) and the Us Government is NOT Lying. OK, I better get back to work;)

BTW: I used the State Dept definition because the UN cannot agree on a definition of Terrorism. Discuss.
 
2003-03-12 08:30:58 PM
did you know that 76% of all statistics are just made up?
 
2003-03-12 08:31:37 PM
03-12-03 08:30:52 PM Fb-
DrToast,

What I'm saying is, if you give a chimp a gun, and the chimp shoots somebody, you don't blame the chimp.


But I'll bet you take the gun away from the chimp.
 
2003-03-12 08:32:19 PM
Thank god someone has some sense....
 
2003-03-12 08:32:58 PM
Hey, -Fb, quit picking on those of us stuck in America.

I can't even afford to move across town.

But you're right about the rest of it though.
 
fb-
2003-03-12 08:33:00 PM
Xtremehkr,

Hmmmm speculate about what they may or may not have? Hmmm.. bring up 20 year old history and totally ignore our role in it? Boy.. add some looney media spin.. outright political lies.. and my SUV will be waving its flag all the way to the pump!
 
2003-03-12 08:33:17 PM
oh god, will you all just shut up.
 
2003-03-12 08:33:22 PM
CashMoney:

You can't justify Dubya's lie-based slaughter on some nebulous "Master Plan" to "stabilize" (read: pacify) the Middle East.

If that theory were valid, we'd be nuking dicators world-wide, not just the one who's sitting on the oil.....

You're grasping at straws to support a losing team.
 
fb-
2003-03-12 08:33:55 PM
Ender_rpm,

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
 
2003-03-12 08:34:18 PM
'dictators'

Finally the voice of reason speaks through... if dubya doesnt listen to his daddy then we are all screwed.
 
2003-03-12 08:34:27 PM
Some people should stay president for life, like the Pope.
Correction: until they can't walk on their own anymore.
 
2003-03-12 08:34:46 PM
Gelatinous...

I am not throwing the term around loosely. If you will recall, the dictionary definition of fascism is "A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism."

Hm. Consolidation of federal agencies under the Homeland Security department, severe limitations of freedom under 'Patriot' Acts I and II, centralization of economic authority with the new econ package, arrest of hundreds of protesters nationwide for 'disorderly conduct', confinement of immigration statute violators with no access to lawyers or phones, and a policy of belligerent nationalism (criticism of France, Germany, Russia, Pakistan, Syria, Turkey, etc.- plus the aggressive spying Condoleeza Rice ordered on the U.N.) and racism- Kill those Sand nubianz!! We got Michael Savage calling underdevoloped countries 'turd world countries' and promoting the elimination of blacks and browns on FARKIN MSNBC!!!!! Plus, the last time a national flag was hauled out and displayed with such prominence was indeed under Adolf Hitler.

So sorry bro, but I do think before I speak.
 
2003-03-12 08:35:28 PM
Fb-
True, unfortunate, but true. Any thoughts on the rest of the post?
 
2003-03-12 08:35:29 PM
... not that the Pope is president of course.

/in case of wise-asses
 
2003-03-12 08:35:48 PM
Unexpected this is, and unfortunate.. Hear you nothing that I say?
 
2003-03-12 08:36:08 PM
I pointed this out yesterday and NOBODY wanted to argue about it. Now, now, it's a big deal.

Harrumph!

/goes off and pouts in corner

03-11-03 08:48:28 PM ZipBeep
Daraymann
George Bush Sr. tried to kill Saddam when he was in power, so they're even.

If he had tried to kill Saddam, he would be dead right now.

Bush I made a speech at Tufts University recently and he said it would is a mistake not to build a strong coalition before going to war in Iraq.

Quote:
"Incidentally, the Madrid conference would never have happened if the international coalition that fought together in Desert Storm had acceded the U.N. mandate and gone on on its own if the United States had gone on on its own, had gone into Baghdad after Saddam and his forces had surrendered and agreed to disarm. The coalition would have instantly shattered. And the political capital that we had gained as a result of our principle restraint to jumpstart the peace process would have been lost. We would have lost all support from our coalition, with the possible exception of England. And we would have lost all support from the smaller nations in the United Nations as well."

The whole speech: http://enews.tufts.edu/stories/030303BushSpeech.htm

Sounds like there have been some arguments at the Bush family meetings.
 
2003-03-12 08:37:07 PM
xtremehkr
you mean Impaler's post from the "International Action Center" and the "Military Toxics Project" that don't show any numbers as to how radioactive depleted uranium really is? .. yeah, I'm just going to disregard those .. flame away
 
2003-03-12 08:37:17 PM
I am just sick of the whole argument to go to war.

-Saddam is an evil man-

Well guess what. The world is not a very pretty place and there are going to be lots of evil people that will say bad things against America.

-By defeating Iraq we will be stopping terrrorism-

Now this is a better arugument, but it is based upon the assumption that Iraq has ties to terrorists. It is true that Saddam is giving money to the Palestinian cause, but so are a majority of people in the Middle East.
Terrorism will be a problem for many years to come. And by inflmaing the entire region for the purpose of routing out terrorism, it seems to be bad circular reasoning.

-Saddam has WMDs and plans to use them against allied nations-

HOW? His missle capacity is rextricted to a 93-mile limit. The al-soumad missles, which are currently being destroyed are the only ones capable of breaking that barrier. There are only nine of them and if one or two even survive and/or get of the ground then nations such as Israel and Europe have a missle defense to prevent them from reaching the nation.
lets be reasonable about this. The WMD that Iraq has cannot be used unless they are transmitted in some way. As I said before his missle technology is limited. The only other possible way is through "human weapons" in the same context of suicide bombers. I think little of a humans ability to do such a thing and acctually succeed. Most likely is the "HW" will die from exposure or will be shot dead before the mission succeeds.

I do not want this war because it does not fall in the category of National defense or Betterment of the world.

I do not support Saddam but at least I know what he is thinking. Bush keeps everything secret and has not come up with a good excuse why we should press forward in Iraq.
 
2003-03-12 08:38:19 PM
03-12-03 08:26:07 PM Impaler

what is depleted uranium

that link was really interesting. I was surprised to learn that much of the DU in Iraq was left there by the U.S. during the first Gulf War. thanks for posting it.

A lot of people are saying depleted uranium is the next agent orange

that has to be the least readable site I've ever seen. Jesus it's hard on the eyes.
 
2003-03-12 08:38:34 PM
Anyone have a pro depleted uranium (from now on referred to as DU) site? I fear I might be posting the "we didn't land on the moon" equivalent for DU.
 
2003-03-12 08:39:02 PM
ANCALAGON

What about that report that talks about depleted uranium from "weapons" (like the depleted uranium left in the Gulf) as opposed to the depleted uranium used in Smoke Detectors.

Maybe you should check your smoke detector, or pull the wool from over your eyes.
 
2003-03-12 08:39:08 PM
Ich_bin_ein_Rama_affe: one of the better reasoned posts I've read in a while.
 
fb-
2003-03-12 08:39:12 PM
Alright.. I think I've got this all settled.. EVERYBODY will be happy.

We drag out Bush, his cabinet, the house of reps and senate. We blow their brains out execution style.

We do the same exact thing in Baghdad with their political leaders.

We then elect a rational, sensitive, internationally cooperateive regime in both countries.

Problem solved. No further discussion needed.
 
2003-03-12 08:40:04 PM
and we all know how sucessful the Madrid Conf was. Israel offers peace for land and Arafat blows up a bus.
 
2003-03-12 08:40:24 PM
Xtremehkr: Sorry, it makes no sense, no one reported the amount of harmless trash left there after the war, only the 40 tons of depleted uranium.

that's because it's called DEPLETED URANIUM !! .. it's a good word to use in a news headline to hook in the people who don't know how harmless depleted uranium actually is (except when being fired out of an A-10 of course)
 
2003-03-12 08:41:37 PM
Ancalagon

You can lead a Horse to water but damned if he can be learned anything.
 
2003-03-12 08:42:16 PM
xtremehkr
please read my posts before responding

it's Americium in smoke detectors, not depleted uranium. I used that as an example because it's the same type of radiation
 
fb-
2003-03-12 08:43:12 PM
Anacalagon,

I got a deal for you.. you sleep in a bed made of spend depleted uranium casings for the next month.. I'll sleep on a bed of smoke detectors. After the month, we go out and have a soda.
 
2003-03-12 08:43:19 PM
xtremehkr
You can lead a Horse to water but damned if he can be learned anything.

horses tend to be pretty stuburn .. especially when you try and talk science to them
 
2003-03-12 08:44:01 PM
I do not support Saddam but at least I know what he is thinking.

May I ask how you know what Saddam is thinking?
 
2003-03-12 08:44:11 PM
If you are going to ignore factual posts and reduce your argument to semantics there is really no point. You may as well just start the name calling and complete the stereotype.
 
2003-03-12 08:44:56 PM
Oh you did that already, I'm done.
 
daz
2003-03-12 08:45:12 PM
[Headline]

Well, that's good since it's not unilateral since we have U.K., Spain, Poland, and about 20 other nations at least that will have troops and boots on the ground, not to mention dozens of others who will provide monetary, and logistical support (chemical detection and cleaning equipment, electronic monitoring, etc)
 
2003-03-12 08:45:29 PM
VideoVader

If I believe the mantra of an entire party (i.e. liberals

Liberals are a Party? I had no idea. Please define what the word "liberal" means for me. Listening to talk radio, I can tell that:

If you are anti-war, you are a liberal. If you are a follower of Krishnamurti instead of Jesus, you are a liberal. If you are a homosexual, you are a liberal. If you are black, you *probably* are a liberal. If you are in favor of the First Amendment, you are a liberal. However, if you are against the Second Amendment, you are also a liberal. If you are against the drug war, you are a liberal. If you are a feminist, you are a liberal. If you are in favor of American due process for those suspected of terrorism links, you are a liberal. If you respect Jimmy Carter, you are a liberal. If you think Rush might sometimes be wrong, you are a liberal.

I mean, liberals have a hell of a platform! It seems a bit disjointed to me, though.

Have you ever thought that the word "liberal" has no meaning at all? Except to mean, you AREN'T a good white Christian Republican.

Does it blow your mind that there might be shades of gray out there? Or is the world really that simple, black and white, us versus them?
 
2003-03-12 08:46:25 PM
The only other possible way is through "human weapons" in the same context of suicide bombers. I think little of a humans ability to do such a thing and acctually succeed. Most likely is the "HW" will die from exposure or will be shot dead before the mission succeeds.

And we all know how hard envelopes and stamps are to come by.
 
2003-03-12 08:47:28 PM
Bush said he supports GWB's Iraq policy. If you didn't read the whole speech then shut up. That's why nobody is is reporting on this story.
 
2003-03-12 08:47:56 PM
HighHardOne
It was in all the American newspapers two weeks ago when he gave the speech. Those papers also reported that Bush Sr. said he supports his son's Iraq policy and that the circumstances of the first Gulf War necessitated a coalition.

Here's the lead from the Boston Globe's story:

In a speech at Tufts University interrupted twice by protesting audience members yesterday, former President George H.W. Bush supported his son's present policy toward Iraq, but also declared that during the Gulf War, it was essential to regional stability that the United States was able to maintain a coalition of 32 Western and Arab nations.

Doesn't quite jibe with The Time's story, does it?


But the Boston Globe is just SLIGHTLY to the left of NewsMax, isn't it?
 
daz
2003-03-12 08:48:16 PM
Oh, and to the misguided people who were posting "facts" about how we supplied biological and chemical materials, you're completely wrong.

I believe who you're talking about is France, Germany and Russia.

Remember the French Osiris Reactor that the Israelis destroyed in 1981 (of course not, because Liberals can't remember history, which is why they're liberals), that was the FRENCH Osiris reactor.

French corporations and the government itself have been supplying and equiping the Iraqi WMD program since the 1980's and didn't event stop during the Gulf War!

Reason #1 why France doesn't want to go to war is because they know we will be able to trace 90% of Iraq's weapons back to France itself.
 
2003-03-12 08:48:23 PM
xtremehkr
how is it that you're accusing me of not reasonably arguing the point when you haven't refuted a single piece of data I've put up here. Meanwhile all you've posted are first person stories, and links to organizations that are obviously anti-military, sensationalist organizations that do not have any numbers of their own to support the claims.

I'm not saying we didn't leave depleted uranium shell casings lying around .. I'm saying that they're harmless, and so far, I'm the only one with any sort of scientific data on my side.
 
2003-03-12 08:48:24 PM
Confabulat
well said.

The two party system is weird isnt it. A "liberal" can be anything from a granola eating lesbian in san francisco to a rural black in mississippi to an auto worker in detroit.

What do you MEAN you cant tar all those people with the same brush?!?! Dont you go thinking them big edjumacated thoughts, just know that those guys who arent for the war hate america and are "pussies".
 
2003-03-12 08:48:52 PM
HI I'M AN IMPORTANT LIBERAL MECHANIC WITH SHOCKING VIEWS!
PEACE IS WHAT WE NEED!
USA IS ONLY GOING TO WAR FOR OIL CAUSE OIL IS GOOD!
FRANCE IS ABSOULTELY RIGHT FOR BEING COMPLETE ASSHOLES
I OWN AN OLD SCHOOL VW VAN AND A GUITAR!
 
2003-03-12 08:49:17 PM
Bbcrackmonkey
Bush said he supports GWB's Iraq policy. If you didn't read the whole speech then shut up. That's why nobody is is reporting on this story.


Except for the part about building a coalition, right?
 
2003-03-12 08:49:17 PM
Ich_bin_ein_Rama_affe: George Bush ist ein eingebildete affe
 
2003-03-12 08:49:36 PM
What Saddam is thinking is:

How can I stay alive and still remain in power?

No matter what happens to me I still have two insane sons who will gain power after I die.

I know that the US has a bad track record of placing leaders in nations and it is likely that in a few years people will look back and think well of me. Just like Bokasa, Duvalier, adn Mengitsu.
 
2003-03-12 08:51:53 PM
If you are against depleted uranium, you are a liberal.
 
2003-03-12 08:52:09 PM
FB- Depleted Uranium is safe and is no more radioactive than glow sticks. The bad part is when you fire a uranium shell and it hits a tank, it shatters into a million pieces and the pieces melt into plasma and a lot of radioactive particles are thrown up into the air and in the tank. The spent shell casings have no uranium residue, as Uranium ammunition is always coated with other materials.
 
2003-03-12 08:53:17 PM
Fb-
I'm starting a fund to buy you a new computer to replace the one the secret service will be confiscating.

Ssssssh...Poindexters listening.
 
2003-03-12 08:55:15 PM
BTW, DU ammunition will actually light on fire and liquify after it hits a target. The liquid particles are still traveling with enough speed to punch right through the other side of the tank but since the ammo lights on fire when it hits something, it ignites the deisel fumes in your tank and will often burn you alive. BTW if you are struck with ANY piece of DU get it out of your body ASAP.
 
2003-03-12 08:57:05 PM
I'm a bit surprised that no one has held an updated Geneva Convention to ban depleted uranium amunition... I mean, you can't knotch up your bayonet, or torture POWs, but you can use that shiat? Damn.
 
fb-
2003-03-12 08:57:06 PM
I wanted to see a show of hands of the people that would still be supporting Bush if he told you he had to sexually mutilate toddlers, drink their blood and smash in the skulls of puppies with tack hammers in order to protect you from 'terrah' and 'evil dooooooers.'
 
2003-03-12 08:57:19 PM
Ancalagon

But your not, just because you choose to ignore other people's reports doesn't mean that you are right. You didn't answer my earlier questions about the uranium either. So this is not really a discussion and there are only so many times I can hear the same catch phrase before I lose interest. False information used in an attritious manner while ignoring other facts as liberal nonsense is not going to make you right.

Remember when Agent Orange didn't cause Cancer?
 
2003-03-12 08:58:21 PM
Fb-: would he be covering old-school Metallica while doing so?
/trying to add some levity to this bleeding clusterfvck of a thread
 
2003-03-12 08:58:39 PM
----Remember the French Osiris Reactor that the Israelis destroyed in 1981 (of course not, because Liberals can't remember history, which is why they're liberals), that was the FRENCH Osiris reactor.---

Well, if were going to play the stupid and completely irrelevant "he armed him so his stance on the war is irrelevant" game (which, i must add, is totally stupid), lets not forget who armed saddam in the mid 80s! U! S! A! U! S! A!

Does that have any relevance at all to the current crisis? nope, not a bit. Nor does france's dealings with iraq in the 80s, or even now. Hell Dick Cheney's Haliburton Oil company dealt with saddam hussein IN THE NINETIES.

EVeryone arms everyone theyre not at war with. Everyone does business with everyone else. IT DOESNT MATTER. We armed saddam, now we want to invade him. The french made money off him. . the brits, too, the germans, the russians,....HEY! IRAQ IS ENGAGED IN TRADE! WHODA THUNK IT? Its called world trade. Everyone does it and has done it since the time you could put stuff in a boat and sell it somewhere else. It has no relevance to the current situation.

This whole "theyre worried about weapons being traced argument" is hot air. Every country arms everyone they're not at war with. It bites you on the ass later from time to time, but everyone does it anyway. Russia armed afghanistan. We armed Iraq in the 80s. Germany armed most of europe before ww1. etc etc. WHO CARES.

France's stance is France trying to wrangle more concessions and get a better piece of the Current Crisis Pie than they deserve. Its called POLITICS. They've always done it, they Clemenceau and Foch did it during the negotiations at Versailles, they did it again at the end of ww2, all the way back to the partitioning of germany after the Thirty Years War in 1648. They always do it, as all countries which take an active participation in world affairs do.

Oh, but of course you knew that, since republicans like you are real smart and know all their history, right?
 
2003-03-12 08:59:13 PM
What a joke. I don't think I've seen spin like this since Carville hung up his cleats.
 
2003-03-12 08:59:32 PM
FYI holding an already fired Uranium bullet is safe. The bullet is not very radioactive. But equipment struck by DU rounds will probably be full of Uranium oxide dust, and if you breath it in it will get into your lungs and make you very sick from heavy metal poisoning and radioactivity. Its not very radioactive but if its actually inside your body then its effects are very much multiplied, obviously.
 
2003-03-12 09:00:33 PM
How does anybody supporting this war look past the fact that most of the world is opposing it? Greed I guess.

When gas prices went up in the past we used to get something from Opec on the news. OPEC has not cut production but gas prices are at a record high. What's the official Republican story for this fiasco?
 
2003-03-12 09:02:00 PM
Father Jack, thank you. Just thanks. Amen bruthah.
 
2003-03-12 09:02:25 PM
CRONEHIMSELF schrieb:
Ich_bin_ein_Rama_affe: George Bush ist ein eingebildete affe

Stimmt. Eingebildet und unausgebildet auch!
 
2003-03-12 09:02:28 PM
Impaler
what is depleted uranium

A lot of people are saying depleted uranium is the next agent orange


OK, since I've handled more depleted uranium than anyone here (as a Radiation Safety Tech), let me just say that while I don't think you want to hang around this stuff, it is generally stored in the open, not in lead-lined caves or anything. For many years, the Nuclear Techs used to skip the DU plates across the floor like a skipping stone, because it makes really cool sparks. That practice was eliminated because it was thought that if breathed enough (a lot)of the smoke from it, you could get some exposure to radiation.

Now, unless there has been some new research done, nobody is making a reactor or a bomb out of this stuff. It is generally used to shield people from regular uranium because it is so dense.

I understand it also makes a great bullet and possibly a great shell, but not because it is radioactive, but because it is dense.
 
2003-03-12 09:05:54 PM
Someone really need's to assasinate bush, that would make the world a much brighter place. No seriously I pray a sniper blow's his brains out. That would so rock, especially seeing his family in mourning crying their eyes out. I'd laugh with such sadistic glee.

And by the way lighten up. You can wish whoever you want dead. I'm not threatning anyone.
 
2003-03-12 09:06:00 PM
xtremehkr

and yet, if I were to go find data sheets on the chemical reactions that agent orange causes when it comes in contact with organic tissue, I'm sure they would support the whole cancer thing

however, I can prove, just like how dozens of researchers have proved that uranium releases alpha radiation when it decomposes

alpha radiation is helium .. not, "it's similar to helium". It is comprised of 2 protons, and 2 neutrons .. it is harmless .. it will not penetrate a sheet of paper, much less human skin

I'll check back on this thread, but I have no intentions of continuing to explain the same point over and over.

You wanted your insult? .. here it is: I'm glad I decided not to go straight into the military after high school. I'd hate to be so scientifically illiterate as to think that your arguments make sense.
 
2003-03-12 09:06:51 PM
LittleCamel
FACT: Bush41 never...eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeever comments on his son, the President of the United States.


Apparently, this isn't a fact. You should go read the speech. He doesn't mention him by name, but does say "The President" many times.
 
2003-03-12 09:06:55 PM
Just wondering. How long does it take for crude oil to be processed into gasoline?

From what I hear it takes months, if so that would mean that the current "crisis" with rising gas prices are artificially being raised by oil companies trying to gain money on the looming war.

If what I said above is true then yes this war is about oil. Rising the price of oil to line the pockets of capmaign contributers.
 
2003-03-12 09:07:05 PM
Thanks ZipBeep.
 
2003-03-12 09:08:28 PM
Mopofdeath: and have John Ashcroft move up a step closer to the Presidency- hell, have Cheney take over right away? Fvck, you're a crazy mofo, ain't you?
*wishes we could just call an early election like all other modern, democratic republics*
 
2003-03-12 09:09:45 PM
Crotchrocket, DU rounds are actually not as bad as people make them out to be. Only if you breathed in the Uranium dust after it hit your tank or if you have a small fleck of it inside you will it cause you serious health problems. Equipment that was hit by DU rounds must obviously be decontaminated, but as far as weapons of war go, DU is not nearly as destructive or deadly as many other conventional weapons. I mean, what about napalm, incendiary bombs, or the flame thrower? Those things burn people to death and choke them to death on smoke. What about Fuel Air Explosives? They suffocate you by taking up all the oxygen in the air and they collapse your lungs and ear drums from the air pressure.

Even chemical weapons are not as bad as everyone makes them out to be. Chemical weapons were used extensively during WW1 by all sides. Phosphene, Sarin, Mustard Gas, etc. and yet less than 1% of the battlefield casualties were caused by chemical weapons. Conventional weapons are far more deadly than chemical weapons any day of the week. The only reason you would want chemical weapons is the fear response. Chemical weapons terrify people. The threat of a chemical attack horrifies people. That's what Saddam uses them for. To cow the Shiites in the South into submission for fear of being gassed like the Kurds. During Saddam's genocide campaign against the Kurds in which he killed 100,000 only about 4,000 deaths were from chemical weapons.
 
2003-03-12 09:10:16 PM
"Someone really need's to assasinate bush, that would make the world a much brighter place. No seriously I pray a sniper blow's his brains out."

And leave Cheney in charge?

This is kinda like the Dan Quayle effect in reverse.
 
2003-03-12 09:11:07 PM
Someone really need's to assasinate bush, that would make the world a much brighter place. No seriously I pray a sniper blow's his brains out. That would so rock, especially seeing his family in mourning crying their eyes out. I'd laugh with such sadistic glee.

 
2003-03-12 09:11:24 PM
Bbcrackmonkey: I see, good points all around. Thanks for the better perspective on DU and other unpleasant tools of destruction
 
2003-03-12 09:12:17 PM
 
2003-03-12 09:13:33 PM
Mopofdeath:
Watch for Feds at your back door.
 
2003-03-12 09:13:56 PM
Crotchrocket Slim, I once had a great quote about weapons:

"We aren't allowed to use chemical weapons, unless the chemicals in them create huge, fiery explosions."
 
2003-03-12 09:15:21 PM
Somewhere a Secret Service agent is reading this thread and cussing up a storm at all the over-time it's generating for him/her.
 
2003-03-12 09:16:42 PM
Aardfarkette
Bulgaria, Cameroon and Guinea are all onside?!

Whoa, I better rethink my position.


Just THINK, if you were on the Security Council, no matter how small you were, you could win the lotto and get billions from Bush II just for supporting him in the war on Iraq. BILLIONS. You don't have to fight, you don't have to supply weapons or money. Nothing. Just sit back and let the money roll in.

This is Microsoft behaviour on the part of Bush II. If they don't let you do something, buy them out.
 
2003-03-12 09:17:43 PM
"We aren't allowed to use chemical weapons, unless the chemicals in them create huge, fiery explosions."

Well yeah. The other chemical weapons make you want to gag, but the fiery owns are pretty cool looking. It's hard to effectivly cheer a "HELL YEAH!" if there isn't any body parts flying.
 
2003-03-12 09:18:42 PM
ZipBeep
That's the world. It's always been that way.
 
2003-03-12 09:18:52 PM
Henchman
And leave Cheney in charge?


Where is that bastard Cheney anyway? He's been hiding out for over six months now. He owes me MONEY!!!

You can't hide forever, Dick!

;D
 
2003-03-12 09:19:07 PM
And everyone remember the Tokyo Subway that got gassed by that crazy cult? They used absolutely shiatloads of Sarin gas on an extremely crowded subway with poor ventilation, and only a few people died, hundreds more just got sick.

If they had used all the money they spent on poison gas and instead built a really big bomb they would have killed far more people. Maybe even hundreds. Those Tokyo subways are so incredibly packed you people have no idea. They actually have people who jobs it is to push crowds of people into the subway car until they cannot cram anyone else in there.
 
2003-03-12 09:19:41 PM
We need an open source government.
 
2003-03-12 09:20:05 PM
Bbcrackmonkey: hey, Hollywood war movies would be pretty boring if we were dropping EMP bombs on our enemies, of if they'd depict energy weapons without the unrealistic visible energy-beams coming out of them.

Impaler: so, you're saying that I shouldn't announce to my fellow Cobra Vipers that Destro is about ready to test out that Weather Dominator, and that Cobra Commander has ordered that a few key scientists reverse engineering all the UFO technology are to be kidnapped within the next few weeks?

Oh, btw, COOOOOOOOBRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAA!!!1!!1!!1!!1
 
2003-03-12 09:20:39 PM
"Where is that bastard Cheney anyway?"

Last I heard he was blowing up stuff under the VP's residence. Why can't he just burn incriminating documents like everyone else?
 
2003-03-12 09:20:56 PM
OMG, just like a celebrity and their crappy opinions. Bush Sr had his chance in office and mucked up the US enough. we don't need his input now. everybody knows about Bush Sr's ties with the middle east and the income he gets from them as an 'advisor'. he doens't want to take the hit in the pocket book and that's why he is against war. screw him. i didn't vote for him or his son. who cares what the french think or the UN for that matter. they don't have soldiers. the french army couldn't invade a mcdonalds restaurant. this has nothing to do with the UN. they were not attacked on 9/11, the US was. this should be and will be the US' decision and nobody elses. if Bush Jr doesn't take us to war, then he shouldn't bother running for office next year. nobody is gonna vote for a sissy.
 
2003-03-12 09:21:03 PM
"This is Microsoft behaviour on the part of Bush II. If they don't let you do something, buy them out"

I wouldn't blame Bush.... look around you, it's the American way.

 
2003-03-12 09:21:11 PM
DrToast
That's the world. It's always been that way.


But Bush II has taken it to the Microsoft level. Or Bell Telephone before the breakup.

"We don't care. We don't have to. We're the phone company!" - Lily Tomlin
 
2003-03-12 09:22:44 PM
03-12-03 09:19:41 PM Impaler
We need an open source government.


Sounds good in theory, but if it's anything like operating systems, I dunno if I could handle the proponents of open source government.
 
2003-03-12 09:22:59 PM
Crotchrocket, that show is so awesome. The funniest thing I ever saw was when that guy in the football jersey and the helmet was running through the forest and a snake was slithering in a branch up ahead of him. As he was running by he punched the snake in the head, for no farking reason at all! He just punched a damn snake in the farking head and it made a loud *CRACK* noise. Goddamn I laughed by ass off at that.
 
2003-03-12 09:24:59 PM
I don't even want to get into all the weekly patches.
 
2003-03-12 09:27:20 PM
I liked his Dad, I dislike his son. I hope he can take his son behind the woodshed and thrash a bit of sense into him.
 
2003-03-12 09:28:21 PM
Mopofdeath The Secret Service will not pay attention to your little disclaimer. Have fun getting your entire life turned upside down, moron.
 
2003-03-12 09:29:22 PM
Don't forget the spyware.
 
2003-03-12 09:29:25 PM
Bb, tell me about it- the last week or so, I've been downloading as many old GI Joe eps as I can off Kazaa- it's very therapuetic to watch that in these days, what with the country in a bad condition, and no real clear way of dealing with the situation. Plus, it's always good to get baked and watch those old 80s cartoons.
 
2003-03-12 09:30:03 PM
And Cap'n Gridiron did suck a lot.
 
2003-03-12 09:33:00 PM
Father Jack schrieb Stimmt. Eingebildet und unausgebildet auch!

Genau so mein Freund. Vielleicht koennen wir 'was tun...
 
2003-03-12 09:37:36 PM
 
2003-03-12 09:40:34 PM
Ancalagon
alpha radiation is helium .. not, "it's similar to helium". It is comprised of 2 protons, and 2 neutrons .. it is harmless .. it will not penetrate a sheet of paper, much less human skin


Well, let's not go overboard here. While I don't think there is a health threat similar to Agent Orange with DU, Plutonium is an alpha emitter also, and nobody would want to hold Plutonium in their hands.

But, those web site people are wackos, yes.
 
2003-03-12 09:41:09 PM
I'd hit it, but I'd hate myself for it.
 
2003-03-12 09:43:58 PM
Ancalagon

Assume

Ass U Me

Assuming I went into the military straight after High School made as Ass out of U and not Me.

Why don't you go ahead and tell me how smart you are now. Two pieces of evidence about the radioactivity of depleted uranium were presented contradicting eachother. My mind was made up based on personal experiance. That would make two reasons to think it is radioactive versus one.

You just aren't going to convince me otherwise, even if you agree that Agent Orange is a carcenogen.

California landfills are being tested right now and they are finding huge volums of radiactivity that is not supposed to be there. That story was in the LA Times.

It just amazes me that you are so willing to trust a government that has lied so many times about so many things. Maybe it is because you have been scared by the propaganda being spread, maybe you believe that this is just business as usual for world politics. Whatever it is I don't care, despite what is said about radiation i know that it is not safe and that is being proven more and more. For the "Greater Good" cause that the military likes to use many things are done without public knowledge and this is considered being clever by a lot of leaders in the military. The average age of military retirees is not impressive.

If you want to insult my intelligence or anything else that comes to mind, feel free. You know very little about me and based on your reactions to finding out something you don't like I doubt very much that you would.

Put your head back in the sand and hope for the best, things will be alright when Bush is back in Texas and there are a reasonable bunch of people in in office trying to undo all of what he did. Not soon enough tho.
 
2003-03-12 09:44:02 PM
03-12-03 08:27:43 PM DrToast

So what you're saying is that it's the fault of the U.S. that Saddam Hussein is so brutal, but you're saying nobody should try to correct past mistakes and we should allow Saddam Hussein to keep doing what he's doing. Please explain the logic.


I think what hes saying, or at least what I think, is that you can't take the "moral high ground" when you and your buddies were partly responsible for the weapons Saddam has. At least Bush should come out and say "look, we sold him weapons, we didn't know he would be this dangerous, now lets take him out! But first, NORTH KOREA!" Then I and many other people would agree. Until then, you can't use the argument like "oh he gassed his own people" when you actually assisted in it knowing full well he was.

John Allen Muhammad received sniper training in the army. Does that mean he should be fried and allowed to continue to shoot people at gas stations or in parking lots because he trained in the army?


Imagine if he told the Army exactly what he was going to do, and the Army kept supplying him and giving him monthly checks if they saw him killing people. Thats at least what the Reagan administration did.
 
2003-03-12 09:44:44 PM
AlleyKat: You go, boy!


I'm sick and tired of these morons who feel bad for the rest of world because we Americans have more money. Well, freakin' A, man... if you don't like it here, move! And if you're already out of the US, then stay out there! The less of people are here, the more wealth I can acquire!

"What are you staring at? You're laborers! You should be laboring! That's what you get for not having a college education..."
-William Atherton as Dr. Jerry Hathaway in Real Genius
 
2003-03-12 09:45:10 PM
03-12-03 09:37:36 PM QuithEx


I dont care if shes a terrorist sympathizer, theres something about her that screams "do me!"
 
2003-03-12 09:45:57 PM
03-12-03 09:44:02 PM Big Al
I think what hes saying,


Actually, he answered my post.
 
2003-03-12 09:46:03 PM
In regards to depleted uranium....

Depleted uranium is largely (99.8% by military spec, 99.3% by civilian spec) U-238. As Ancalagon correctly stated, U-238 emits only alpha particles. Alpha particles are completely harmless.


However, as U-238 decays, it generates Th-234 and Pa-234, both of which are beta and (weak) gamma emitters. (I believe Pa-234 is the worse of the two.) Beta emitters can be harmful, and gamma emitters are harmful. Both Th-234 and Pa-234 have very short half-lives. In addition, the remaining 0.2% of uranium in depleted uranium is U-235, which is an active emitter of alpha, beta, and gamma particles.


Constant, bare-skin exposure to depleted uranium rounds over a prolonged period of time would probably be detrimental to your health, which is why military personnel who are likely to be handling the substance frequently are advised to take precautions.


Infrequent contact, or proximity to depleted uranium rounds is unlikely to have much of an impact on one's health. It is very unlikely that depleted uranium rounds would be responsible for a cancer spike in the Middle East. Not unless people were, as FB- put it, sleeping on a stack of the things. I rather suspect that breathing fumes from oil-rig fires are far more hazardous.


As far as making bombs from depleted uranium, forget it. Weapons grade uranium consists of greater than 90% U-235, which exists only as a trace substance in depleted uranium. You would need a lot of time, money, equipment and depleted uranium to refine any weapons-grade uranium in this fashion. If you have to refine, try starting with nuclear fuel uranium which is 3% to 7% U-235. Or, even easier, find a helpful friend to sell you some pre-made.


This concludes your Fark science break.
 
2003-03-12 09:49:22 PM
The average age of military retirees is not impressive.

The average age that military retirees live to is not impressive...
 
2003-03-12 09:50:25 PM
Ann needs to eat something, her arm could be Calista Flockharts.
 
2003-03-12 09:53:05 PM
Ann needs to eat something

True, but if she gains weight she will lose the only reason anyone listens to her.
 
2003-03-12 09:53:20 PM
Meepzoid:
Can we please settle the argument of the oil in Iraq?

I would like to know a couple of things.

1> Why didn't we take the oil the first time around?
2> What are we planning to do with the oil?
3> We already have there oil. (It is for sale on the open market)

I guess you would like us to believe that Bush is conspiring to move in and build big bad proccessing plants that take the oil from the ground and then??? Then what? We RULE THE WORLD! Muaaha and finally the master plan is in place to dominate the world with our super powerfull military and mega corporations. Get real retard.

I mean seriously the 'its all about the oil man' is a bunch of crap and anyone who says that is ranked down in my eyes. The fact is it is simply oil and they are not the only place that has all of the oil and although they may have the largest oil deposits I don't believe the middle east is a the only oil producing reigon.

Peace out
 
2003-03-12 09:54:13 PM
 
2003-03-12 09:54:53 PM
Ah, so that's why anyone listens to her lunacy... I wonder if I could fall through a sewer grate as well, whether or not I'd be a best selling author too, even if all I did was shiat on the page...
 
2003-03-12 09:56:18 PM
DrToast: If you know what's best you had better stay away. That is one mean woman! She tells it like it is without that sweet layer of political correctness.
 
2003-03-12 09:56:48 PM
Re: "It's all about the oil"

I don't know if it's true or not, but just to get past this part of the discussion
I read in the news paper that some oil businesss people believe the USA wants control over oil in Iraq so that oil production can at some point be CUT and thus the price RAISED.
 
2003-03-12 09:58:10 PM
Cashmoney

What are we going to do with the Oil?

Are you serious?
 
2003-03-12 09:58:26 PM
Stop, stop the german funny language. I am still in lvl 1 and that is a phrase that was said in jest, by a friend of mine in class.
 
2003-03-12 09:59:45 PM
Jacque: if you really think Coulter is anywhere near reality, then it's a sad commentary on you- and it's too bad for Right-wingers in general that she gets associated with you all.
 
2003-03-12 10:01:21 PM
She doesn't tell it like it is, she tells it like how brain dead idiots think it is. I don't think there is anyone I have heard that lacks a basic thought process as much as ann coutler. Even the points she brings up that I agree with she tarnishes with some moronic after thought. She is listened to and read because she is the thought equivalent of a train wreck. Interesting to observe, but disturbing that it took place.
 
2003-03-12 10:01:24 PM
Seriously: I want to hear someone say outloud that the US is lunging for more world power and control by taking someones oil. It sounds insane doesnt it. Everyone is simply saying "its all about the oil man"

I want to hear the complete contructed argument.
 
2003-03-12 10:01:44 PM
"The political apathy of people in time of peace indicates that they will readily let themselves be led to slaughter later. Because today they lack even the courage to sign their names in support of disarmament, they will be compelled to shed their blood tomorrow."

--Einstein
 
2003-03-12 10:01:59 PM
Who among you will stand up and say it?
 
2003-03-12 10:02:00 PM
Iraq is only 30% to 40% developed. Iraq needs to be developed.

It is 2nd only to Saudi Arabia in Oil.

An Oil company looking for a new field would have to go to Iraq, everything else has been developed. One Irish company has been talking to Iraq since 1978.

Iraq's plan must be to hold out and make the most money of their Oil as it will be the last.

Go to war? or replace Oil? replacing Oil would put a lot of wealthy families out of business. Just like when Dupont demonized Marijuana, keeping the economy dependant on Oil is good for business.
 
2003-03-12 10:02:36 PM
ZipBeep
think about the Louis Slotin's death though link

He was the Manhattan project guy who was handling the two halves of the weapons grade plutonium, when he accidentally brought them in contact with each other. In their natural state, they were virtually harmless (I'm sure there were trace amounts of gamma radiation coming off the thing, but not much worse than say .. standing outside).

Then realize that when plutonium breaks down it releases beta and gamma radiation ending up as Americium-241 (which actually ends up releasing more gamma radiation than Pu when it breaks down)
DU is mostly U-238 which is actually pretty stable stuff.

From : education.jlab.org
Uranium's most stable isotope, uranium-238, has a half-life of about 4,468,000,000 years. It decays into thorium-234 through alpha decay or decays through spontaneous fission.

so unless you can somehow trigger a reaction in this stuff (which thankfully no one has been able to do) there's really nothing to worry about.
 
2003-03-12 10:03:31 PM
Xtremehkr: Not convinced yet.
 
2003-03-12 10:04:19 PM
couldn't have said it better myself Weeflerunner good work
 
2003-03-12 10:05:21 PM
I don't care what George the First thinks--I wanna know what Mama Babs thinks.
 
2003-03-12 10:08:21 PM
http://www.adbusters.org/campaigns/got_oil/
 
2003-03-12 10:09:02 PM
sorry xtremehkr .. I missed your post, or I would have tackled that one first

It just amazes me that you are so willing to trust a government that has lied so many times about so many things.

I'm not trusting the government, I'm trusting the scientists and the universities that actually know what they're talking about.

If you want to insult my intelligence or anything else that comes to mind, feel free.

just the intelligence thing will do for now .. thanks though
 
2003-03-12 10:10:46 PM
Thanks for the link Ancalagon. I thought that was a made up story in that Manhattan project movie (John Kusak's (sp?) character) done for drama. I never knew it actually happened
 
2003-03-12 10:10:52 PM
1> Why didn't we take the oil the first time around?

The UN authorization only allowed the coalition troups to expel Iraq from Kuwait. Overthrowing Saddam was out of scope of the resolution for force. Daddy Bush had more sense than to openly opose the security council.

2> What are we planning to do with the oil?

Well duh, profit from it. Iraq oil costs about a $1 a barrel to pump.

3> We already have their oil. (It is for sale on the open market)

But if we pump it, we avoid the middle man and we can threaten the Saudis and the rest of OPEC by flooding the market, plus we get a shiny new military base of operations in the middle east since the Saudis are getting tired of the US presence in their country and are threatening to boot us out.
 
2003-03-12 10:12:13 PM
This wasn't really about Uranium, though it is a nice distraction.

Much nicer than talking about Bush Sr going against Bush Jr.
 
2003-03-12 10:14:00 PM
Oh and Kuwait paid the US 52 Billion dollars for that liberation effort. Practically all of Kuwaits nest egg.

Even Japan isn't helping to fund this possible war. Though they will help with the cleanup.
 
2003-03-12 10:14:04 PM
plus we get a shiny new military base of operations in the middle east

That's my theory for the motive for war. Mainly because that's why I would go to war.
 
2003-03-12 10:18:53 PM
Ancalagon

Well keep insulting cause you haven't managed to convince anyone of anything, and like a true conservative, eventually, insults are all you are going to have.
 
2003-03-12 10:19:18 PM
Let's be clear. Alpha particles are not completely harmless. A lot of harm can come to you if you breathe them.

Plutonium is ALWAYS cladded or worked on in a sealed glovebox type situation, even though the direct radiation can't really harm you. (except in a critical mass state, obviously, and that is not really the alpha radiation). The internal organs (lungs, in particular are more sensitive)

But Alpha particles are difficult to separate from DU and the levels are so low in DU that it was really considered safe.

And yes, turning it into a fissionable product is about the equivalent of turning lead into gold.

Sitting next to 40 tons of DU is probably the equivalent of somebody in Chicago moving to Denver.

IIRC, a ton of DU is a surprisingly small amount. We also monitored health things, such as how much you should lift a day, etc. and a ton was a very little pile.
 
2003-03-12 10:20:11 PM
03-12-03 09:45:57 PM DrToast
03-12-03 09:44:02 PM Big Al
I think what hes saying,

Actually, he answered my post.


My mistake. Well then, that was MY opinion!
 
2003-03-12 10:20:19 PM
You're all monkeys. Every last one of you. Furry, prehensile-tailed monkeys. That's what you are. Nothing more.
 
2003-03-12 10:21:28 PM
xtremehkr
you said something about assuming
.. I'm definatly a left-winger, I've never voted for a single republican. I'm arguing against your stance on depleted uranium because you're wrong, not because it's what I want to believe
 
2003-03-12 10:22:35 PM
There are also the Australians, who firmly back action against Saddam and have committed troops to the region.

PM Uriah Howard has indeed committed troops to Iraq, but the vast majority of Australians are opposed to this stupid war.

PM Uriah Howard is in it for what he hopes will be increased US trade. He's a stranger to the truth.

There are some leaders who might discover that the more they blather about "regime change", the more their voters will decide it begins at home.
 
2003-03-12 10:23:07 PM
My mistake. Well then, that was MY opinion!

I already know your opinion! ;)
 
2003-03-12 10:23:22 PM
CashMonkey03
 
2003-03-12 10:24:36 PM
Dark_clark

I guess the son has learned a few tricks since then.

s/learned a few/learned few/
 
2003-03-12 10:25:04 PM
Cashmoney03

I would like to know a couple of things.

1> Why didn't we take the oil the first time around?
Answer : The prime objective of the gulf war was to liberate Kuwait... not an invasion of Irak

2> What are we planning to do with the oil?
Answer: The big money comes from refining and distributing the refined product to tankers docked in Kuwait. That beeing said... let it be clear that american and british companies (exxonmobil, bp et al...) can then ship the refine product to whoever wants to buy it... the refined product is a KUWAITI PRODUCT... not Iraqi.

3> We already have there oil. (It is for sale on the open market)

Answer : Exactly !
 
2003-03-12 10:25:59 PM
Damn, my HTML sucks.

Copy and Paste then. Sorry.

I'd post the argument here, but it would take too long.

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2003/10/ma_273_01.html
 
2003-03-12 10:26:11 PM
this is pointless, you are not going to change my mind and I could care less, I do not consider radiation to be safe in any form. I am not going to go into specifics but I work with radiation everyday and I know about the real dangers of radiation even in small amounts.

Once heavy metal enters the bloodstream it never leaves. Read the earlier post to find out that there is a possibility of damage from uranium and then think about what 40 tons of forgotten Uranium could do once it gets into the water tables.

Apart from that I would much rather be discussing the topic of the thread (original topic). Ok, this is a moot point and not at all interesting.
 
2003-03-12 10:26:17 PM
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2003-03-12 10:26:39 PM
Production vs. Strategic Reserves

Another thing to keep in mind is that there is a significant difference between oil production and oil reserves. As far as reserves, yeah, Iraq is pretty impressive - we think. There really hasn't been a full exploration of what oil resources Iraq has. Currently, Iraq's production is about 2.5 million barrels/day, with a max production output of just under 3 million barrels/day.


Sound like a lot? Mexico produces 3 million barrels/day, with a theoretical max production of around 3.5 million barrels per day. It is very likely that offshore drilling in the Gulf of Mexico would dramatically increase that number. Canada produces more oil than Iraq.


So who produces the most oil? In raw production, the U.S. leads the way with 8.4 million barrels/day which is, interestingly enough, also the theoretical production max. Only Saudi can (currently) beat that number. Saudi pumps around 8 mil barrels/day, out of a theoretical max of about 11 mil barrels.


That is production. If you look at known reserves, then the Middle East once again looks promising. However, looking at probable reserves, the matter swings away once more. Russia, Canada, South America, West Africa (offshore), and the Gulf of Mexico are all very promising sites for significant oil preserves. And of course, there is always ANWAR....


By some estimates, drilling in ANWAR would increase the U.S. strategic reserves by 25% to 33%, significantly increasing U.S. oil production. So far, this has been a fairly hot topic, but if you want to cut dependency on foreign oil, it is one way to start.


The reason Iraq is appealing to oil companies, is that the oil is easy to get to, not too much drilling is required. As far as overall value of Iraq, who knows? The financial costs of rebuilding Iraq following a war would almost certainly be higher than any boost due to potential oil prospecting.
 
2003-03-12 10:27:24 PM
Impaler
She doesn't tell it like it is, she tells it like how brain dead idiots think it is. I don't think there is anyone I have heard that lacks a basic thought process as much as ann coutler. Even the points she brings up that I agree with she tarnishes with some moronic after thought. She is listened to and read because she is the thought equivalent of a train wreck. Interesting to observe, but disturbing that it took place.


You should listen to AM Radio in Chicago - the stuff these clowns spew is amazing! I was taking a shower last night and got Rush Limbaugh on my new shower radio. WOW! He actually thinks this stuff is funny. There's been more humor in THIS post than in the whole 20 minutes I listened to that. YIKES!

And it's all the same, day and night.
 
2003-03-12 10:27:29 PM
Cronehimself - What are you trying to say?
 
2003-03-12 10:29:06 PM
Some people would close their italics tags. But not I!
 
2003-03-12 10:29:20 PM
03-12-03 08:05:52 PM Cronehimself wrote:

Hmmmmmmmmmm.... you ever lived in Europe retard?
Maybe check it out before you regale our fascist ass state with that title.


Actually, yes I have asswipe. I was stationed in that shiathole of a socialist continent in '85-87. If you think it's so wonderful over there why don't you drag your useless nub over there and be happy? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm????

AK
 
2003-03-12 10:29:30 PM
Cronehimself:

Bufark Bush? No thanks.
 
2003-03-12 10:29:36 PM
Thanks for adding to the dialogue there, Cronehimself.
 
2003-03-12 10:30:12 PM
Three Salient Points:

(1) PLEASE tell me that was not a picture of Condi Rice up top! SHUT-UP!! I have C.H.U.B.

(2) And now, a little poem:
Rumsfeld is a
Friend of mine
He resembles
Frankenstein

(3) And finally--with regard to Ann Coulter, I read an article in which a liberal columnist was interviewed in a story on Coulter, and he railed and railed against her, but then the interviewer asked him, "So, do you think she's hot?" And the columnist who had just been going beet-red nuts-angry over her said, after no pause, "Oh, I'd f*ck the shiat out of her." Funniest thing I'd ever read. You can look it up online. Hi-Larious.
 
2003-03-12 10:30:46 PM
xtremehkr
please believe me when I say I'm trying to get out of this thread too, but ...

Once heavy metal enters the bloodstream it never leaves.

I already said it's a bad idea to eat the stuff, but radiation isn't metal.
Alpha radiation is excited helium atoms, Beta radiation is free protons, Gamma radiation is an electromagnetic wave ... nothing there is anywhere close to a metal.
 
2003-03-12 10:30:47 PM
03-12-03 10:23:07 PM DrToast
My mistake. Well then, that was MY opinion!

I already know your opinion! ;)


Bah! I might have to change it now just to keep people guessing!
 
2003-03-12 10:30:51 PM
Iaminsane - man, I would love to be a monkey... now I'm going to be thinking about that all night.
 
2003-03-12 10:31:54 PM
Here's what the so-called "people" arguing about politics look like:
 
2003-03-12 10:32:48 PM
Get it? They're really just furry, prehensile-tailed monkeys.
 
2003-03-12 10:33:44 PM
ZipBeep: Plutonium also emits beta and gamma particles. Gamma particles are decidedly dangerous.

Are alpha particles capable of penetrating the respiratory tract? I did not think that they were, but I could be wrong on that one.
 
2003-03-12 10:33:56 PM
and lets say the DU seeps into a water source at say .. 3 ppm .. for every gallon of water you drink, this means your body is going to be exposed to about 12-15 excited helium atoms every 4 and a half billion years
 
2003-03-12 10:34:06 PM
The Beastie Boys all have something to say, and they're letting you listen for free!

www.beastieboys.com

Ok, it's not the best Beasties song ever, but it's their first new one in 5 years, and it's better than "Give Peace A Chance."
 
2003-03-12 10:36:37 PM
Weeflerunner
I'm not sure, I know that one kind (alpha or beta particles or gamma rays), but one is harmless on the outside of a person, but dangerous inside, and another is the opposite. I think it's beta that's just an electron, so I wouldn't think that one is either.
 
2003-03-12 10:37:02 PM
03-12-03 10:31:54 PM Iaminsane
Here's what the so-called "people" arguing about politics look like:


What do you call running into a thread and posting your own ignorant opinion with a gigantic picture is? That isn't trying to be an attention whore?

pot=kettle
 
2003-03-12 10:37:10 PM
Xtremehkr
this is pointless, you are not going to change my mind and I could care less, I do not consider radiation to be safe in any form. I am not going to go into specifics but I work with radiation everyday and I know about the real dangers of radiation even in small amounts.

Once heavy metal enters the bloodstream it never leaves. Read the earlier post to find out that there is a possibility of damage from uranium and then think about what 40 tons of forgotten Uranium could do once it gets into the water tables.


The problem is a matter of degree. Most people will NEVER be exposed to ANY radiation other than natural radiation and X-rays (oh, forgot, nuclear bomb tests! Damn asshole nuclear bomb tests). But you bring it up, and everybody jumps up and down like it's a 50's sci-fi movie. Whereas, coal, for example, is killing you right now, through the pollution, and heavy metals released into the air.

You NEED to be very careful around radiation. The goal is ALAP. On the other hand, there are a lot of people, myself included, who have been exposed to more than you will ever get, (barring a nuclear war - which seemed so far away a couple of years ago - now, ....), and have no health effects. (Just so you know, it's been 20 years since I stopped working with that stuff)
 
2003-03-12 10:37:35 PM
Confabulat

you are right about that, it sounds like it was recorded in 5 minutes.

Best line...

(not exact) "If you like America, you don't have to get Hysterica"
 
2003-03-12 10:38:18 PM
prehensile is Impaler's word of the day.
 
2003-03-12 10:38:44 PM
"Bush is going to destroy the US at this rate. Economically and socially."

I always love this. It's like George Carlin used to say about people saying we were going to destroy the planet if we didn't watch out. The freaking planet wasn't going anywhere - the planet has been around for like 5 billion years, it has survived Ice Ages, meteors the size of Texas, possibly having a piece of it flung off to form the moon, dinosaurs, floods, earthquakes, and on and on and on.

And no President is going to "destroy" the US. Unless we're electing Damien Thorn all of a sudden, who's in the White House isn't the Be All and End All because of the way our system is set up. What does "destroy the US" mean anyway? Are we going to go back to the Great Depression? We survived that, didn't we? What would a social destruction of the American way of life look like? I mean, it's nice to bandy the phrase around so we have a good idea of how much you dislike the guy, but neither he nor anybody else we put in that office is going to "destroy" the country, economically, socially, or in any other way. That's just ridiculous (or rediculous, depending on your preference).

Things I've learned in this thread:

1. Anybody who's pro-war is a moron. Unless they aren't.
2. The war is about oil. Unless it isn't.
3. The whole world is against the war. Unless they aren't.
4. Almost every American is against the Bush Administration's policies. Unless they aren't.
5. Any country who votes with us in the UN is lying, or doing it against the will of their people, nearly each and every one of which we just know is against it.
6. Depleted uranium is bad for you. Or it is harmless.
7. I'd still hit Ann Coulter.
 
2003-03-12 10:39:10 PM
Cashmoney03... in an earlier post you asked of farkers to find an other way to prevent another 9/11...

Keep an open mind and try this.

-Instead of asking of yourself how we can prevent an attack... ask of yourself WHY we are beeing attacked. Of course the easy answer is to say that there is some groups who are against the American way of life, nations who are jealous of America's success (see GWB october2001 state of the union adress for all the listed easy clichés)

Did you know that 17 cents comes out of every american taxpayer's paycheck every week and it is sent to the government of Israel ?

Meanwhile 3 generations of palestinians are living in refugiee camps. I absolutely condone suicide attacks, but it just goes to show yo how desperate the palestinian people have become. The USA sells arms to Israel, which Israel pays for, with US donated funds !!!. Meanwhile the palestinians have rocks.

So lets try this action just to see if it can work ?

NO ACTION= that means ; lets freeze all US money from getting to Israel for a limited time period. The United States have full power to demand of Ariel Sharon to recognise a a Paletinian state and to resolve peace if they want to get some more us money again.

You will be surprised at the drop of suicide/terrorist attacks following such démarche.
 
2003-03-12 10:39:54 PM
and lets say the DU seeps into a water source at say .. 3 ppm .. for every gallon of water you drink, this means your body is going to be exposed to about 12-15 excited helium atoms every 4 and a half billion years

The problem there is the fact that uranium is a heavy metal like lead. The radioactivity isn't the concern.

(I've learned a lot in the past 3 hours, 3 more and I'm an expert)
 
2003-03-12 10:40:28 PM
Big Al
It's not that big. There are plenty of larger pictures in this thread. Attention "whores" do it for money. I'm not even doing it for attention. I am merely stating the fact that you're all monkeys, for those of you who do not know already. Plain and simple.
 
2003-03-12 10:41:08 PM
 
2003-03-12 10:41:12 PM
CashMonkey03

That link above was for you. I'm not saying it's truth (Mother Jones is a leftie rag) but it's worth considering.

To me, it seems like Bushie and the gang are throwing the dice. If this is a nice, cushy, easy war like Gulf War I, the US wins, and we rule the world more than ever before.

If it turns ugly and we end up in WWIII...well...

I don't even like the $10 craps tables.
 
2003-03-12 10:41:58 PM
ZipBeep

Harmless radiation is turning out to be not so harmless though.

California did not ban certain forms of radiation (medical) from going into landfills. But recent testing has found very high amounts of radiation as opposed to the levels that are supposed to be there.

The same argument of questioning the facts was used as a reason not to support the Kyoto accord. After that even conservative scientists came back and said that the Oil industry is contributing to global warming.

Landfills decompose and enter the eco-system and it is going to take a spike in something life harming before anyone feels the need to do anything about it.

is the cure better? or preventing having to find a cure?
 
2003-03-12 10:42:50 PM
I absolutely condone suicide attacks

I know that's a mis-type, but I'm going to hold you to that.
 
2003-03-12 10:43:05 PM
Flg8or: Nice post. Y'know, I've always wanted to prove George Carlin wrong on that one...

And people who type in "rediculous" drive me around the bend. What, are the being diculous again? The root is ridicule, damnit!
 
2003-03-12 10:45:05 PM
I absolutely do not condone....


my bad... a really big bad !!!
 
2003-03-12 10:45:14 PM

damn .. flame out

I'm going in search of food .. just take it for granted that I'll pretty much argue against anything stupid said about the publicity induced dangers of depleted uranium, occasionally dropping a veiled insult at xtremehkr because he refuses to try and argue with the facts
 
2003-03-12 10:45:34 PM
03-12-03 10:39:10 PM Bashturn wrote:

NO ACTION= that means ; lets freeze all US money from getting to Israel for a limited time period. The United States have full power to demand of Ariel Sharon to recognise a a Paletinian state and to resolve peace if they want to get some more us money again.

And let the Arabs drive those dirty Jews into the sea, is that it?

The Palestinians don't want their own state, they want it ALL and the Jews gone. Hamas has even said publicly they intend to keep attacking no matter who agrees to what deal between what partys.

Israel is armed as they because they have to be. Without a strong military they'de all be dead. All of them.

AK
 
2003-03-12 10:45:38 PM
bashturn... nice. thanks man. we only have until 2012 so make it worth it boys...
 
2003-03-12 10:46:08 PM
Weeflerunner
ZipBeep: Plutonium also emits beta and gamma particles. Gamma particles are decidedly dangerous.

Are alpha particles capable of penetrating the respiratory tract? I did not think that they were, but I could be wrong on that one.


Don't make me look this shiat up!!! :@ :D

IIRC, Plutonium emits gamma and beta radiation through the process of the actual alpha radiation - in other words, the fact that the alpha particles exist and bounce off one another, etc. produces some beta and gamma radiation through bremstrahlung (the process where a gamma ray is produced by another radioactive partical drawing an electron away from the nucleus)and collisions, but it's weak.

You know, at one point, I sat a guy down over the lunch hour and explained nuclear radiation to him. Now, I will have to get out a book. But not tonite. :D
 
2003-03-12 10:47:11 PM
Whoops. There should have been a speech bubble around the "look at me" stuff. Here's a new version that should be smaller.
 
2003-03-12 10:47:48 PM
hey... Alleykat, you really think you can justify jews killing palestinians with assault rifles, grenades, and bombs, when all they got is rocks? first of all, if Israel didn't care so much about pumping water from under the West Bank they would have abandoned it a farkin long time ago... it's all about resources, really... just look at history bum
 
2003-03-12 10:49:22 PM
and PS, fark Sharon, the International Criminal Court at the Hague found him guilty of multiple disgusting human rights violations and found him worthy of being prosecuted under international law for genocide.... Shalom!!!
 
2003-03-12 10:50:02 PM
Was Martin Luther King Jr. a hippie? Walter Cronkite?

No. It shows your complete lack of historical knowledge when you lump anti-war sentiments with being a "hippie". Hippies were the children of affluent parents who "dropped out" of society. For the most part, they were those who decided to get away from society, not those who took part in political activism. Obviously, there were long-haired, drug-addled people taking part in political activism at the time, but don't label the anti-war movement, SDS, civil rights, and everything else as hippie movements, because they weren't, and it's demeaning to the causes, whether you believe in them or not. Likewise, don't make the same mistake about today's activism.
 
2003-03-12 10:50:06 PM
Xtremehkr
Harmless radiation is turning out to be not so harmless though.

California did not ban certain forms of radiation (medical) from going into landfills. But recent testing has found very high amounts of radiation as opposed to the levels that are supposed to be there.

The same argument of questioning the facts was used as a reason not to support the Kyoto accord. After that even conservative scientists came back and said that the Oil industry is contributing to global warming.

Landfills decompose and enter the eco-system and it is going to take a spike in something life harming before anyone feels the need to do anything about it.

is the cure better? or preventing having to find a cure?


If this is the worst thing you have to worry about, you'll be OK, is what I guess I'm trying to say. Other pollutants and chemicals that are far more prevalent and at LEAST as dangerous would be a better use of time and money.
 
2003-03-12 10:50:52 PM
btw, when was the last time you were in a synagogue? i've said it before and i will again... any Jew in America is a Jew before they are an American
 
2003-03-12 10:51:51 PM
Xtremehkr

Definitely not the Beasties' best work.

I especially like the lines:

Say ooh ah what's the White House doin'?
Oh no! Say, what in tarnation have they got brewing??!!!!???!!

George Bush you're looking like Zoolander
Trying to play tough for the camera
What am I on crazy pills? We've got to stop it


It's STILL better than "Give Peace A Chance" though.
 
2003-03-12 10:52:54 PM
03-12-03 10:47:48 PM Cronehimself
hey... Alleykat, you really think you can justify jews killing palestinians with assault rifles, grenades, and bombs, when all they got is rocks? first of all, if Israel didn't care so much about pumping water from under the West Bank they would have abandoned it a farkin long time ago... it's all about resources, really... just look at history bum


So thats what the Palestinians are using for suicide attacks huh. ROCKS!!

And you do realize that those pictures of children throwing rocks at IDF soldiers usually don't show a few nice gernades being thrown in there as well...

but most people fall for media biased, only because their mind belives it first.
 
2003-03-12 10:52:57 PM
AlleyKat : sad post, considering you were a serviceman... tell me, what are your toughts on the 34 US sailors who died when the Isralis tried to sink the USS Liberty 1967 ?

Tell me how it is that you can support Ariel Sharon who is a CONVICTED war criminal ?
 
2003-03-12 10:53:07 PM
Keely1116
Was Martin Luther King Jr. a hippie? Walter Cronkite?

No. It shows your complete lack of historical knowledge when you lump anti-war sentiments with being a "hippie". Hippies were the children of affluent parents who "dropped out" of society. For the most part, they were those who decided to get away from society, not those who took part in political activism. Obviously, there were long-haired, drug-addled people taking part in political activism at the time, but don't label the anti-war movement, SDS, civil rights, and everything else as hippie movements, because they weren't, and it's demeaning to the causes, whether you believe in them or not. Likewise, don't make the same mistake about today's activism.


Nicely said, Keely. Maybe we should go back to the old "Yippee" name Abby Hoffman gave us. Youth Involved in Politics, IIRC. Although, youth is really stretching it for ME! :D (keep telling myself, it's only a number!)
 
2003-03-12 10:54:02 PM
03-12-03 10:49:22 PM Cronehimself
and PS, fark Sharon, the International Criminal Court at the Hague found him guilty of multiple disgusting human rights violations and found him worthy of being prosecuted under international law for genocide.... Shalom!!!


You mean an event that Syrian rebels committed? Yet it is Sharons fault because "he did not control them" from far away in Israel, right?
 
2003-03-12 10:54:49 PM
Cronehimself: Uh, the International Criminal Court was just established. It hasn't tried anyone yet, and specifically by charter, doesn't have the right to try anyone from countries which are not signatories to the treaty. Israel didn't sign. (Neither did Russia, the U.S., China, and most any other country with an active military.)

IIRC, it was a Belgium national court which ruled that Sharon could be tried for war crimes. Which isn't the same as being found guilty, though I doubt he could find an unbiased court anywhere in the world.
 
2003-03-12 10:55:20 PM
Ancalagon

HeySuess! don't make this personal dude.

Read GimpRulze "DU Health Dangers" Link and see what was happening.

Maybe Uranium was the main component and it was mixed with more dangerous forms of radioactive materials. This stuff obviously wasn't good for peoples health, it was not cool of us to leave behind 40 tons of it.
 
2003-03-12 10:55:38 PM
03-12-03 10:52:57 PM Bashturn
AlleyKat : sad post, considering you were a serviceman... tell me, what are your toughts on the 34 US sailors who died when the Isralis tried to sink the USS Liberty 1967 ?


Your great country was spying on Israel and was selling the info to the arabs in exchange for better oil prices. Congrats, you are defending a country who backstabbed its greatest ally in the middle east... which is exactly why they kept everyone hush hush about it.

Tell me how it is that you can support Ariel Sharon who is a CONVICTED war criminal ?


Hey is as guilty as American generals are in Vietnam. The day anyone tries to bring them to court like they did Sharon is the day I will somewhat accept your statement. Next?
 
2003-03-12 10:58:38 PM
"This will not stand, man, this aggression!"
 
2003-03-12 10:59:28 PM
Bashturn - "ask of yourself WHY we are beeing attacked."

That's easy. Our government does things they don't like.

They kind of have us at an advantage: thanks to the terrorists, they don't have to ask why we're bombing them into the stone age.

There are acceptable ways to address grievences. They aren't nearly as exciting, they don't appeal to retrograde bloodlust, and they often take a long time to produce results.

Or, you can use terrorism. It's like peaceful protest, but with more blood, death and explosives. Very dramatic stuff, but you lose the sympathy of every civilized nation on the planet. Not an impediment if all you're out to impress are fundamentalist mouth-breathers and incorrigible apologists.
 
2003-03-12 11:01:21 PM
Big Al : you are missing the point... put anybody in living conditions such as the palestinians are living in and you will get suicide bombers... But think about what that implies... How bad must a situation be to push someone over that edge ?

I have been to the middle east over a dozen time in the past 8 years, let me tell you, life is bad over there... you mentioned the media as being biased, well I have to disagree with you on that, way too many Americans, when they think of a palestinain, think of an AK-47 totting nut, what does that say about media bias ?
 
2003-03-12 11:01:38 PM
Xtremehkr
Oh and Kuwait paid the US 52 Billion dollars for that liberation effort. Practically all of Kuwaits nest egg.


Really? Is this true? 52 Billion? Man. Are they still trying to drill sideways into Iraq's oil fields (supposedly the cause of the invasion of Kuwait in the first place)

Even Japan isn't helping to fund this possible war. Though they will help with the cleanup.

Everyone will want to help with the cleanup. There's money to be made in the cleanup. And plenty of oil to fund it. Everyone WILL GET PAID for their cleanup efforts.
 
2003-03-12 11:03:54 PM
Don't worry Tan will save us!

/sarcasm
 
2003-03-12 11:04:27 PM
I'm a dual dutch-american citizen, and as such I don't really have much of a stance on the war either way. I see both points, I just wish that people arguing for either side would present well-articulated intelligent arguments.

Iraq ranks #9 in countries that the U.S. imports oil from. In front of it? Canada, Mexico, Venezuela...etc. The argument that Bush just wants war in order to gain cheap oil is just silly. Since plans for a war began, the cost of oil has gone up, not down- and it will continue to even if the U.S. wins any eventual conflict. Why? Because even after a war, the U.S. will get Iraq's oil the same way it always has-- it will buy it.

Also remember, Bush isn't acting against the wishes of everyone. It wasn't too long ago that a Democratic Senate and a Republican House voted to approve military action in Iraq. The President can act without the support of the U.N., but to act without the support of congress would be political suicide.

Will a conflict bring peace to the Middle East? No. Not in the least. That's a silly argument for war. It's just as silly as the thought that a war in Iraq will end terrorism. I can see why most of the liberals on this forum are cynical of "cowboy Bush," because of this notion that the war will stop terrorism. It won't.

I don't think unilateral action is necessarily the answer, but if the U.N. refuses to enforce the resolutions it passes, then it is an ineffective body, and I can see why the U.S. is ready to act on its own.

My two cents. Or my three cents, whatever.
 
2003-03-12 11:07:25 PM
03-12-03 11:01:21 PM Bashturn
Big Al : you are missing the point... put anybody in living conditions such as the palestinians are living in and you will get suicide bombers... But think about what that implies... How bad must a situation be to push someone over that edge ?


Oh you mean a bad situation like having your country under constant attack at the places you want to relax and pretend to be a normal citizen?

Let me guess, its the settlements. Before it was the occupation, next it is... ? Excuses after excuses, when everytime the Palestinians have a chance for peace, their government either refuses or backs away from the table without compromize. Yeah, they sure want peace, right?

I have been to the middle east over a dozen time in the past 8 years, let me tell you, life is bad over there... you mentioned the media as being biased, well I have to disagree with you on that, way too many Americans, when they think of a palestinain, think of an AK-47 totting nut, what does that say about media bias ?


I don't listen to the media, especially the American media. I also have much more experience with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in general than most. What is your opinion of the number of Palestinian supporters of suicide bombers? You realize it is over 80%? Yet those tactics do nothing but pull IDF troops back into their cities to get more bomb makers and other terrorists.

Face it, until the Palestinians can control their radical groups, or WANT to control them, then nobody should be bending over backwards to help them out again and again. And the IDF isn't willing to allow them to be on their own to plan more and more attacks.
 
2003-03-12 11:08:44 PM
Media bias. Strange issue. Some say the Jew run press is pro-isreal. Others have said it has "become chic around media types to run away from Israel and into the arms of the Arabs" - Howard Bloom, "The Puppets of Pandemonium Sleaze and Sloth in the Media Elite".

But who is telling the truth, or knows the truth?

Discuss.
 
2003-03-12 11:10:37 PM
oh boy guys... i guess you got me all wrong. A Belgium National Court? No. Sorry. It was the International Court of Criminal Justice, which is, sadly, an International Court. Oh yeah, based in the Hague. And beyond that... yes.... Palestinians do indeed curry their advantage with grenades and suicide bombs... but did any of you hasidic idiots consider the FACT that ISRAEL has killed over 1 MILLION islamic and christian refugees since the foundation of their state.. oh please someone contradict me, i've got the hard data right here... AND ALSO the farkin bagel lovin' idiots have described to us a situation in the middle east that is not of their making. sure.


DOES ANYONE CONSIDER THE FACT THAT BEFORE THE BRITISH LIBERATION OF THE MIDDLE EAST THESE GUYS HAD NO AUTONOMY, and since then, HAVE HAD NO DEFINITIVE SAY ON RELIGIOUS AUTHORITY, and also, NO RELIGIOUS BOUNDARIES HAVE EVER BEEN SET FORTH, so let's just love each other guys...
fark BUSH, fark BLAIR, fark SHARON, AND fark THE AXIS OF EVIL (included above)
 
2003-03-12 11:11:16 PM
03-12-03 11:04:27 PM Cheesycow
I'm a dual dutch-american citizen, and as such I don't really have much of a stance on the war either way. I see both points, I just wish that people arguing for either side would present well-articulated intelligent arguments.


and you follow it by....

Iraq ranks #9 in countries that the U.S. imports oil from. In front of it? Canada, Mexico, Venezuela...etc. The argument that Bush just wants war in order to gain cheap oil is just silly.


This is BY FAR the stupidest statement people make to try to get rid of the fact that there is tons of oil in Iraq.

Just because they export a small percentage to the US only means America knows there is ROOM TO GROW and get more of it. Why not take it all over and name the price to other countries? Thats what they will be able to do...

So that statement is getting boring, nobody thinks when they say it.

Since plans for a war began, the cost of oil has gone up, not down- and it will continue to even if the U.S. wins any eventual conflict. Why? Because even after a war, the U.S. will get Iraq's oil the same way it always has-- it will buy it.


Sure, it will buy it from Halliburon and other companies they just signed to do the rebuilding, And I guarentee you it will cost less than it would if Iraq was still selling.

Also remember, Bush isn't acting against the wishes of everyone. It wasn't too long ago that a Democratic Senate and a Republican House voted to approve military action in Iraq. The President can act without the support of the U.N., but to act without the support of congress would be political suicide.


They were politically scared to go against the President, so they gave him the authority to call for war.


I don't think unilateral action is necessarily the answer, but if the U.N. refuses to enforce the resolutions it passes, then it is an ineffective body, and I can see why the U.S. is ready to act on its own.


So complaining that Iraq isn't listening to the UN, the US is going to NOT listen to the UN and start a war? Hypocracy, it isn't just for Politicians anymore...
 
2003-03-12 11:13:13 PM
and yo, Big Al, just listen to the world... obviously everything ever written was biased towards the jews
 
2003-03-12 11:14:16 PM
03-12-03 11:10:37 PM Cronehimself

but did any of you hasidic idiots consider the FACT that ISRAEL has killed over 1 MILLION islamic and christian refugees since the foundation of their state.. oh please someone contradict me, i've got the hard data right here... AND ALSO the farkin bagel lovin' idiots have described to us a situation in the middle east that is not of their making. sure.


Bagel lovin' idiots? You are a nice person, I can tell.

The only thing that proves is that the IDF is a much better trained and eqiped army. The same thing applies to the US. When they went to the Gulf War, the loss to kill rate was about the same as the IDFs. Are you complaining about that too? Of course not!
 
2003-03-12 11:14:46 PM
RE: AlleyKat....

1. Q: What percentage of the world's population does the U.S. have? A: 6%

2. Q: What percentage of the world's wealth does the U.S. have? A: 50%

(which by chance, it also has the most freedom)

Try visiting Europe sometime

3. Q: Which country has the largest oil reserves? A: Saudi Arabia

4. Q: Which country has the second largest oil reserves? A: Iraq

5. Q: How much is spent on military budgets a year worldwide? A: $900+ billion

6. Q: How much of this is spent by the U.S.? A: 50%

7. Q: What percent of US military spending would ensure the essentials of life to everyone in the world, according the the UN? A: 10% (that's about $40 billion, the amount of funding initially requested to fund our retaliatory attack on Afghanistan).

Aww.. you mean those greedy taxpayers don't want to feed the entire world?

better than bombing the shiat out of the entire world

8. Q: How many people have died in wars since World War II? A: 86 million

9. Q: How long has Iraq had chemical and biological weapons? A: Since the early 1980's.

10. Q: Did Iraq develop these chemical and biological weapons on their own? A: No, the materials and technology were supplied by the US government, along with Britain and private corporations.

And France! Why did you leave out France as a major contributor?

Valid Point, all governments suck

11. Q: Did the US government condemn the Iraqi use of gas warfare against Iran? A: No

Yes we did, now you're telling blatant lies.

Didn't stop it though, did they

12. Q: How many people did Saddam Hussein kill using gas in the Kurdish town of Halabja in 1988? A: 5,000

13. Q: How many western countries condemned this action at the time? A:None ; why?

Where the hell were you? I remember the reports on CNN.

14. Q: How many gallons of Agent Orange did America use in Vietnam? A: 17 million.

Not enough.

Statements like this are why America is hated throughout the world.

15. Q: Are there any proven links between Iraq and September 11th terrorist attack? A: No

So that Mohamed Atta met with an Iraqi ambassador in Hungary means nothing?

Hmm, I think you mean when Atta supposedly met an Iraqi Agent in the Czech Republic. This story has since been disproved, the Czech Secret Service got mixed up with a different Atta. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/134573686_noalqaida11.html

16. Q: What is the estimated number of civilian casualties in the Gulf War? A: 35,000

But that Saddam put his weapons in populated areas means nothing...

17. Q: How many casualties did the Iraqi military inflict on the western forces during the Gulf War ? A: None

Sucks to be you doesn't it.

Sucks to be anyone the US decides to pick on


18. Q: How many retreating Iraqi soldiers were buried alive by U.S. tanks with ploughs mounted on the front? A: 6,000

Another lie. Leftist propaganda at it's finest.

Haven't heard this one myself, but do recall that retreating Iraqi soldiers were shot

19. Q: How many tons of depleted uranium were left in Iraq and Kuwait after the Gulf War? A: 40 tons

Depleted. Look up the word some time.

Must be totally safe then! There is strong evidence that Depleted Uranium has caused the Iraqi cancer epidemic

20. Q: What according to the UN was the increase in cancer rates in Iraq between 1991 and 1994? A: 700%

Only Iraq and not Kuwait? Very strange. But you said..

Actually, the Cancer increase has been reported as far away as Saudi Arabia, but it centres around Iraq

21. Q: How much of Iraq's military capacity did America claim it had destroyed in 1991? A: 80%

And how much has been re-supplied by Iraq, France and Germany?

I have seen no evidence of this, are you making it up? Last I heard the Iraqi military was still in a pretty sorry state and not even up to its level of 1991

22. Q: Is there any proof that Iraq plans to use its weapons for anything other than deterrence and self defense? A: No

Was there any proof there would have been a 9/11?

Yes, loads actually. Thats why at the Genoa G8 Summit earler in 2001 there were surface to air missiles mounted on top of the venue. All Saddam cares about is retaining power, using a nuke or any WMD against America or its allies would result in his ultimate destruction. He's nasty and ruthless, but hes not stupid.

23. Q: Does Iraq present more of a threat to world peace now than 10 years ago? A: No

Yes they do, by not abiding to 14 UN resolutions.

*cough* Israel *cough*

24. Q: How many civilian deaths has the Pentagon predicted in the event of an attack on Iraq in 2002/3? A: 10,000

Right, because Saddam will see to it.

I think Saddam will be concerned about trying to Kill Americans during any conflict

25. Q: What percentage of these will be children? A: Over 50%

For the camera no doubt.

If Saddam bombed the US, I'm sure you'd see lots of mangled American kids on Fox News.

26. Q: How many years has the U.S. engaged in air strikes on Iraq? A: 11 years

Your boy Clinton had a grand ol'time in 1998 didn't he?

*sigh* If you're not a Republican you have to be a Democrat yeah? WRONG. Most post WW2 Presidents have been warmongering scum, Clinton was no different

27. Q: Was the U.S and the UK at war with Iraq between December 1998 and September 1999? A: No

But yet Clinton lobbed more cruise missles at that time than in all of the previous Gulf War without a peep from your twerps. Selective peacenicks, gotta love'em.

Nobodys defending Clinton... I'm not anyway. But Bush is waaaay worse

28. Q: How many pounds of explosives were dropped on Iraq between December 1998 and September 1999? A: 20 million

Ya, that's about right.

Yeah, it only killed some smelly brown people, probably deserved it

29. Q: How many years ago was UN Resolution 661 introduced, imposing strict sanctions on Iraq's imports and exports? A: 12 years

Yup.

30. Q: What was the child death rate in Iraq in 1989 (per 1,000 births)? A: 38

Hell, we abort more than here.

31. Q: What was the estimated child death rate in Iraq in 1999 (per 1,000 births)? A: 131 (that's an increase of 345%)

And how many palaces did that poor nation manage to build for Saddam?

This argument makes no sense

32. Q: How many Iraqis are estimated to have died by October 1999 as a result of UN sanctions? A: 1.5 million

No, as a result of Saddam using the money from oil sales on WDMs instead of food for these very same people.

Yeah, Its Saddams fault that the country can't import Cancer drugs. Before the war, Iraq had the highese literecy rate in the arab world, allowed education of women, had a very goood standard of living. Like it or not, this was because of Saddam. Until the US came along and destoyed it all, then put down sanctions ensuring the country would stay on its knees.

33. Q: How many Iraqi children are estimated to have died due to sanctions since 1997? A: 750,000

See above.

See above

34. Q: Did Saddam order the inspectors out of Iraq? A: No

No, be he did directly cause them to leave.

Nothing to do with US spies amongst the Inspectors then?

35. Q: How many inspections were there in November and December 1998? A: 300

And at any one of those he could have offered proof that he did what he promised to do.

36. Q: How many of these inspections had problems? A: 5

Seems to me they all had problems.

Yes, well we can all make things up...

37. Q: Were the weapons inspectors allowed entry to the Ba'ath Party HQ? A: Yes

Is there a point to this? The weapons are hidden.

Personally, If the most powerful military force in world history told me I was in line for an ass whooping, I'd hide some damn weapons as well. He knows that if he ever uses them, he is doomed.
 
daz
2003-03-12 11:14:53 PM
No one is saying that the war on iraq will stop terrorism. It will stop a major terrorist supplier, not to mention a major threat to the stability of the region.

I think he's the only country in that region that has attacked 3 neighbors that weren't Isreal, which is a record.
 
2003-03-12 11:15:01 PM
Cronehimself
and yo, Big Al, just listen to the world... obviously everything ever written was biased towards the jews

Umm...what?
 
2003-03-12 11:15:07 PM
03-12-03 11:13:13 PM Cronehimself
and yo, Big Al, just listen to the world... obviously everything ever written was biased towards the jews


Obviously you like smoking crack.
 
2003-03-12 11:16:41 PM
but the thing is, we can change this... if there aren't to many bagel munchin' palestinian murderin' iraq bashin' ignorant view havin' pro life believin' monkey ass decidin'..... BUT THE THING IS, fark THIS. fark OIL. fark $$$. fark REPUBLICANS (definitely on good principle) AND fark THE U.S. in our foreign policy which we believe fark EVERYONE OTHER THAN US. yeah. go bush. you farkin braindead moron.
 
2003-03-12 11:16:54 PM
03-12-03 11:14:53 PM Daz
No one is saying that the war on iraq will stop terrorism. It will stop a major terrorist supplier, not to mention a major threat to the stability of the region.


If it is such a major threat, why aren't countries lining up with the US to stop Saddam? Hint- Because they know he's a big joke.
 
2003-03-12 11:16:59 PM
Ugh, lots of these comments are good ones, but these boards are beginning to make me sick. Supporting or opposing the war with statements like, "Screw Germany, no blood for oil, screw France, U.S. Imperialism, Watch our bombs drop" are just fueling a fire. This is the same type of thoughtless crap that breeds terrorism. People just get cheap thrills taking the heroic/rebellious "left" or patriotic "right". If you want to that feeling, rent "sum of all fears" or "bowling for columbine". Sometimes war is needed, but it always sucks.
 
2003-03-12 11:17:04 PM
You and Saddam should kick it like back in the day
With the cocaine and Courvoisier


Man, you can get a lot of mileage out of that song.
 
2003-03-12 11:17:40 PM
err I ment countries in the surrounding middle east aren't lining up to help fight Saddam...
 
2003-03-12 11:17:42 PM
ZipBeep

I am not supporting the war, just supporting your point in a slightly misguided way. I could have put that in much better context.
 
2003-03-12 11:20:06 PM
Cronehimself: You sure about that? Really, really sure about that? 'cause virtually every single news source disagrees with you. Including the Palestine Monitor:

BRUSSELS--Last Wednesday, the Belgian Court of Cassation (Belgium's Supreme Court for criminal cases) issued its ruling in a precedent-setting case involving the former Congolese Foreign Minister, Mr. Ndombasi Yerodia. Mr. Yerodia, like Ariel Sharon and Amos Yaron in the Sabra and Shatila case, stands accused of serious violations of international humanitarian law under Belgium's 1993/1999 law on universal jurisdiction for war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide.

The Supreme Court quashed the decision of the Court of Appeals (Belgium's Indictment Chamber), for ruling (as it did in its decision in the Sabra and Shatila case on 26 June 2002), that universal jurisdiction can only be exercised when the suspect is on Belgian territory. While the Court of Cassation did not address that issue directly in its ruling last week, its decision is a welcome indication of the seriousness accorded to the principle of universal jurisdiction, and as such inspires hope that all victims of mass crimes can seek effective recourse before a neutral and independent judge.


The International Criminal Court was sworn in today (March 12, 2003). It is possible that the Belgium government will bring the case to the ICC, but it will be years before anything is actually tried in the International Criminal Court.
 
2003-03-12 11:20:25 PM
Big Al : triple bullshiat ! you tried to sink the USS Liberty because the NSA crewmembers intercepted communications where Israeli officers ordered the execution of palestinan prisoners... You KNOW THIS !
DONT PLAY OSTRICH !
 
2003-03-12 11:20:39 PM
I don't think a war in Iraq will end terrorism, any more than I think arresting someone who just broke into the jewelry store down the street will stop crime.
 
2003-03-12 11:20:56 PM
Cronehimself
but the thing is, we can change this... if there aren't to many bagel munchin' palestinian murderin' iraq bashin' ignorant view havin' pro life believin' monkey ass decidin'..... BUT THE THING IS, fark THIS. fark OIL. fark $$$. fark REPUBLICANS (definitely on good principle) AND fark THE U.S. in our foreign policy which we believe fark EVERYONE OTHER THAN US. yeah. go bush. you farkin braindead moron.

You are clearly skilled in the fine art of smashing your fingers against a keyboard. Are you using that prehensile tail of yours to smack yourself in the head repeatedly with a hammer?
 
2003-03-12 11:21:37 PM
actually i haven't smoked crack in 3 years, but seriously guys, THINK!!! THINK!!! THINK!!! obviously you have no capacity to do so... if you're gonna holla at us on websites then grab our address anyway
 
2003-03-12 11:23:44 PM
yo I am insane... why the fark do you think we are invading a mild mannered dictator with neglectable regional territorial claims as if he was a madman that was taking over something important?
 
2003-03-12 11:24:57 PM
03-12-03 11:20:25 PM Bashturn
Big Al : triple bullshiat ! you tried to sink the USS Liberty because the NSA crewmembers intercepted communications where Israeli officers ordered the execution of palestinan prisoners... You KNOW THIS !
DONT PLAY OSTRICH !


So then why exactly did the US keep quiet about it, and silence the crewmembers?

Maybe you should read a book called "The Secret War Against the Jews" by John Loftus.
 
2003-03-12 11:25:28 PM
Wait, AlleyKat really thinks the US is the country with the most freedom?????

Doesn't travel much, does he?
 
2003-03-12 11:27:06 PM
fark you weeflerunner, read bastard read.. can you? oh of course not.. post your IQ, if it's relevant to mine i might answer your asinine and farking retarded questions
 
2003-03-12 11:27:26 PM
And maybe you should read Body of Secrets by James Bamford...
 
2003-03-12 11:27:56 PM
Anti-war position of unintended consequences

Woooo! Go Saddam! Give those "RICH PEOPLE" a good arsekickin'.

We can't let those arabs get a working democracy, who would hate the jews for us?

It's okay if Saddam kills the Iraqi children, but don't you even think about doing it by mistake.

Who would offer the suicide bomber life insurance plan?

Baghdad just won't be the same without all those pics of saddam.

He needs the botulism for a huge botox party.

/ Please add as needed
 
2003-03-12 11:27:56 PM
And may I state... for the record. that the US gives Israel massive amounts of money because otherwise Mossad would bring public the decieving CIA and how they have been funding Islamic terrorists for decades, and also helped Nazi War criminals escape post-war Germany to either live in the US or other countries around the world.
 
2003-03-12 11:28:11 PM
Cronehimself:
Because the US is owned by the car industry.
 
2003-03-12 11:30:12 PM
03-12-03 11:27:26 PM Bashturn
And maybe you should read Body of Secrets by James Bamford...


I'll take my book instead, because this guy just comes up with his own opinions, while John Loftus studied and talked to numerous CIA and Mossad agents about it.
 
2003-03-12 11:32:05 PM
Cronehimself:
yo I am insane

Of course you are.
 
2003-03-12 11:33:15 PM
And besides, why would the US government cover it up if all they learned was the Israelis committing attrocities against Palestinans?

Let me guess, the jews control the media AND the government, right?
 
2003-03-12 11:33:54 PM
Big Al I dont want to turn this into a freaking book club discussion... but before making such ridiculous statements as to compare the credentials of Loftus against Bamford... may I suggest you look them up first ?
 
2003-03-12 11:36:37 PM
that the US gives Israel massive amounts of money because otherwise Mossad would bring public the decieving CIA and how they have been funding Islamic terrorists for decades, and also helped Nazi War criminals escape post-war Germany

The problem with that is that in needs the assumption that people will give a shiat. The US's help of shady dictators is well known. People even know about syphilis tests on black Americans at Tuskegee. The outrage isn't there. I don't think billions of dollars worth of aid year after year is cost effective for keeping this silent.
 
2003-03-12 11:38:31 PM
is that in needs should be: is that IT needs
 
2003-03-12 11:41:08 PM
ahhh fark that, you all work for the Mossad
 
2003-03-12 11:42:13 PM
The International Criminal Court was sworn in today (March 12, 2003). It is possible that the Belgium government will bring the case to the ICC, but it will be years before anything is actually tried in the International Criminal Court.

Won't happen. Under the ICC charter, war crimes committed before the court was formed cannot be tried. Incidently, the US ambassador to the UN is also a war criminal. Google "john negroponte school of the americas".
 
2003-03-12 11:42:31 PM
Scrotar

There are acceptable ways to address grievences. They aren't nearly as exciting, they don't appeal to retrograde bloodlust, and they often take a long time to produce results.

Peaceful protest has gotten them nothing but ever further encroaching settlements and a gradual takeover of Jerusalem. Their peace overtures were cynically discarded on a legal technicality by the Israeli government after all the hard work Bush I and Clinton did to broker peace agreements.

I don't advocate targetting civilians at all, but they have no hope of having an organised military that wouldn't be decimated in seconds. Civilian militia are all they have, and pitting a lone suicide bomber against a tank is a waste of resources.

The Irish at least targetting infrastructure, though most of it was civilian, and phoned in warning before they blew it up. Most of the time they did, anyway.

There are plenty of parallel actions by other occupied peoples and none that didn't involve genocide were ever 'fixed' by military action.
 
2003-03-12 11:43:28 PM
Cronehimself
btw, when was the last time you were in a synagogue? i've said it before and i will again... any Jew in America is a Jew before they are an American

And Christians defend the American flag before they defend Jesus? Quit being an antisemitic farker.
 
2003-03-12 11:46:12 PM
aah, a perfect topic for a propaganda poster.


 
2003-03-12 11:47:10 PM
Bashturn: You've made some interesting points in some of your posts above, and some of them are based on information that isn't widely available in America. Based on that, as well as on some of the words and spellings you use, I'm guessing that you're not American. If you don't mind my asking, what nationality are you? I have a guess, but I'm wondering. If you don't want to reply publicly on this thread, feel free to send me an e-mail.

I'm not going to be hanging around this thread much for now, but I'll check back later.
 
2003-03-12 11:47:47 PM
Cronehimself

i've said it before and i will again... any Jew in America is a Jew before they are an American

I don't think that's a problem. People can have dual loyalties without conflict most of the time. Coming from a certain race or background doesn't erase your mind, you can still hold independent opinion on both.

I was nodding my head when reading your posts until I got to this bit, anyway.

ps - I like bagels, does that make me an Israeli-terrorist sympathiser ?
 
2003-03-12 11:47:49 PM
I think I will agree with you Tessie, making blind assumptions of jewish people and their faith in not only their religion, but the country they live in is ridulous. Also, what does being jewish have to do with loving your country?
 
2003-03-12 11:49:09 PM
03-12-03 11:47:47 PM Tadlette

ps - I like bagels, does that make me an Israeli-terrorist sympathiser ?


YEAH! You're a bagel lovin, anti-american, nogood liberal hippie, and communist scum! There, I think I got all the insults out.
 
2003-03-12 11:50:02 PM
Big Al
What's wrong with communism?
 
2003-03-12 11:51:01 PM
03-12-03 11:33:54 PM Bashturn
Big Al I dont want to turn this into a freaking book club discussion... but before making such ridiculous statements as to compare the credentials of Loftus against Bamford... may I suggest you look them up first ?


Why don't you go inform me of why the US government and the military would cover up such an event just because they overheard some Palestinians (actually, it was Egyptians but whatever) being killed by the IDF.
 
2003-03-12 11:51:07 PM
I prefer to call begels freedom doughnuts.
 
2003-03-12 11:51:45 PM
Bagels rather
 
2003-03-12 11:52:42 PM

The problem with that is that in needs the assumption that people will give a shiat. The US's help of shady dictators is well known. People even know about syphilis tests on black Americans at Tuskegee. The outrage isn't there. I don't think billions of dollars worth of aid year after year is cost effective for keeping this silent.


No, the general public as a whole does not know that the US supported Saddam, or Mandela, or Bin Laden, etc.

It isn't just for keeping the Israelis silent, it is to make sure they don't do anything to upset the surrounding arab countries enough to where they stop selling the US all the oil they want at somewhat reasonable prices.

Remember what happened last time the arabs got upset? The fuel crisis of the 70s.
 
2003-03-12 11:54:33 PM
GimpRulz: I didn't know that. Makes sense though.

Tadlette: Yes, yes it does. Everyone knows that the big-bagel companies control the media and the government.

Iaminsane: (You didn't ask me, but...) The problem with communism is that it has an overly optimistic viewpoint towards human nature, which makes it impractical. Still not as bad as being a bagel-eater though.
 
2003-03-12 11:56:56 PM
Cronehimself

Methinks crone is a clever liberal discrediter. Make a few reasonable posts, get us agreeing, then go anti-semitic on our arses and let the flying shiat cover us as well.

Nice one !
 
2003-03-12 11:57:44 PM
Just my two cents....
 
2003-03-12 11:58:17 PM
Weeflerunner
You mean it assumes that humans might be interested in working? Communism is a great idea, just executed poorly.
 
2003-03-12 11:59:40 PM
sorry for the h00ge picture!
 
2003-03-13 12:00:27 AM
Big Al

LOL - all it needed was 'now shuddup and go get me a beer, biatch!'

All this talk of bagels has made me hungry. Mmmmmm blueberry bagels. Hardly authentic I know, but great anyway.
 
2003-03-13 12:02:58 AM
Confabulat:

Ive been to Europe several times and to the Middle East far more often than most of you here. And yes the US is far more free than almost any country. Sure some European countries have some freedoms that we don't but they also restrict things we don't. For instance any speech that denies Nazi crimes is illegal in Germany. But you can drink at 18 there, etc. Your kind bashes America at every turn then wonder why your painted as anti-American by those of us who do understand the subtext of every argument in this thread.
 
2003-03-13 12:03:24 AM
03-13-03 12:00:27 AM Tadlette
Big Al

LOL - all it needed was 'now shuddup and go get me a beer, biatch!'


I was expecting your husband to be the one to say that... ;-)

I don't like beer... grab me some mary jane instead!
 
2003-03-13 12:04:27 AM
03-13-03 12:02:58 AM HomestarJunior
Confabulat:

Ive been to Europe several times and to the Middle East far more often than most of you here. And yes the US is far more free than almost any country. Sure some European countries have some freedoms that we don't but they also restrict things we don't. For instance any speech that denies Nazi crimes is illegal in Germany.


Read - US patriotic act

Freedoms? That was so pre 9-11
 
2003-03-13 12:05:23 AM
Cronehimself
"post your IQ, if it's relevant to mine..."

Per the accepted definition of relevant, your comment makes no sense.

relevant: Having a bearing on or connection with the matter at hand.

Nobody's IQ would be relevant to yours, your intelligence has no bearing on anyone else's in this thread. Whether you are of sub-aveage intelligence, of average intelligence or something else, would not make your IQ have any more bearing on someone elses IQ at all. I think you are looking for a different word. Let me put it in simple terms. Say your IQ is 70, and mine is 190,(I may be off a little, on either end so don't feel insulted, but you get the picture,) would you not answer my questions because of of a lack of relevance or equivelance. I think the term you are looking for is "equivelant." Here, I'll try your phrase again:

post your IQ, if it's equivelant to mine..."


BTW, you should really calm down a little, its an embarrassment that you are from Connecticut too.
 
2003-03-13 12:10:53 AM
Freedoms? That was so pre 9-11

The terrorists hated us becuase of our freedoms. Now that the freedoms are gone, we're safe!
 
2003-03-13 12:12:57 AM
whatever Big Al. Except for longer lines at airports exactly how has any real facet of life changed?

Sure a few middle easterners have had trouble in customs but what do you expect? If we just let them all in and it happens again you liberal whiners will try again to roast Bush for not protecting us against terrorism, but when he tries to protect us you biatch about the protection.

Typical.

When Clinton felt solo action was necessary in Serbia Wout even a by your leave from the UN the Republicans accepted it as justified and respected his position as CIC even though he was in the middle of trying to distract the public from his personal misconduct.

Funny how you liberal democrats were real silent then.
 
2003-03-13 12:13:04 AM
Big Al

I don't like beer... grab me some mary jane instead!

He'd be far more likely to be on your side, believe me. I'm the alco in this relationship!
 
2003-03-13 12:13:49 AM
Impaler
The terrorists hated us becuase of our freedoms. Now that the freedoms are gone, we're safe!

That is definately the funniest thing I've heard all day. I should say within 24 hours, because 'today' has only lasted 14 minutes.
 
2003-03-13 12:17:32 AM
Just goes to show that dubya is a complete nutcase.
 
2003-03-13 12:17:32 AM
I think this is all still just part of dubya's strategery.
 
2003-03-13 12:19:04 AM
I did not read this thread, so I can be included in the camp of the brain dead lefties. Un-informed and un-educated. I will comment and seem superior to you all. I will totally ignore history and be a brainless tool. That is the way of the liberal to be a brainless tool.

Also why the hell is harmonia back, I thought that (so-called)brave useful idiot was defending Iraq. Or did the little commie chicken out, when challenged.
 
2003-03-13 12:21:01 AM
I have missed most of this thread so far but right at the bottom I see this "you liberal democrats" written by HomestarJunior. I immediately know that there must be a flame war going on because

1. only right-wing american facists use the term "liberal democrats"

2. 99% of aforementioned facists are always angry because of the decline of white male power.
 
2003-03-13 12:21:31 AM
oh and Iaminsane:

Communism is stupid because it ignores ingrained human territorial instinct. Ownership is important to people, give someone a company car for awhile and it will be treated like crap, give someone their own car (or better yet let them earn one) and they will treat it far better.

Tell me to farm government land for a set wage that wont improve no matter how well I do it (because you are provided for by need, not by skill) and Im not going to be Johnny on the spot. Give me 10 bucks an acre and watch the wheat fly. Communism is a dreamland that ignores reality.
 
2003-03-13 12:21:48 AM
Rikulrn:
Again with the use of 'commie' as an insult! Why?
 
2003-03-13 12:22:52 AM
knitshiat read the above post by me you are one of them.
 
2003-03-13 12:23:36 AM
HomestarJunior
Thank you. I was just waiting for someone to give a reasonable comment against communism. You win.
 
2003-03-13 12:23:50 AM
Rikulrn:

If you must pigeon hole all politics into a simplistic left-middle-right scale, then you are guilty of ignoring history yourself.
 
2003-03-13 12:27:56 AM
Rikulrn:
Again with the use of 'commie' as an insult! Why?

Well you can point to the purges of a few million Ruskies, or the slaughter of a million Cambodians. But the left digresses. You are all morally superior than Americans, history has shown that time and time again.
 
2003-03-13 12:28:03 AM
Well, I eat dinner, then come back to take a look at this thread. Starts off with Bush Sr. this, Bush Sr. that. Then, I scroll down to see where things stand and it's bagels this, bagels that. Now I have to drive to Noah's in the morning. At these gas prices. Damn you all! Lox...Mmmmm.
 
2003-03-13 12:28:52 AM
03-13-03 12:12:57 AM HomestarJunior
whatever Big Al. Except for longer lines at airports exactly how has any real facet of life changed?


So because something hasn't directly effected YOU, theres nothing different about the country?

The point is, the US government has more control over you than they could before, and they are spitting on the Constitution.

If we just let them all in and it happens again you liberal whiners will try again to roast Bush for not protecting us against terrorism, but when he tries to protect us you biatch about the protection.


How exactly will you be protected from terrorism if the government can wave laywer confidentiality rights, the right to a speedy trial by your peers, and freedom of speech just to name a few? And lets not even get into the spying on US citizens, or searches and siezers, now possible without warrents. Constitution right? NOT ANYMORE!
 
2003-03-13 12:29:20 AM
Rikulrn
Pretty binary little world you live in, isn't it?

Do you do anything except spew bile?
 
2003-03-13 12:29:24 AM
But KnyteShyfte I would argue there that historically only the left or right are ever remembered. Who remembers who the leader of the left wing peacenik party in Germany was in 1940? How many can name an American political leader who advocated further negotiation W England at the start of the Revolutionary war? See what I mean?
 
2003-03-13 12:29:57 AM
Vrax:
You should've seen when I singlehandedly turned a political flamewar into a discussion on pandas.
 
2003-03-13 12:31:14 AM
OK then how has it affected you Al?

Anyone you know?

Anyone?
 
2003-03-13 12:31:15 AM
www.politicalcompass.org
 
2003-03-13 12:31:47 AM
"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. ... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
- General Herman Goering, President of German Reichstag and Nazi Party, Commander of Luftwaffe during World War II, April 18, 1946.
 
2003-03-13 12:32:55 AM
Oh and to the person who cited Russian atrocities as evidence against communism. Russia was really socialist. A minor distinction i know but still...
 
2003-03-13 12:33:58 AM
"If you must pigeon hole all politics into a simplistic left-middle-right scale, then you are guilty of ignoring history yourself."

No fool, why did the UN tell the Belgians to leave Rawanda? How many died because of that, who was the only country to offer troops? The US. The UN shoot it down.

I am glad the UN is being exposed for what it is. A bunch of hypocritical liars and dictators. Enjoy being sidelined while the world is made a better place, under Bush.
 
2003-03-13 12:34:33 AM
Looks like homestar likes those warm gov't hands strategically placed around his balls.
 
2003-03-13 12:35:41 AM
Cause The boogie mans gonna get him!!!! Fear is reason!
 
2003-03-13 12:35:58 AM
HomestarJunior
Also about your opinon against communism, that isn't all it's about. Besides, if the workers make extra produce, they would be allowed to sell it and keep the profit (from the extra produce). Thus people can buy their own things, as if they couldn't otherwise.
 
2003-03-13 12:36:01 AM
For the politically unaware Socialism is Communism W a layer of meanness and cynicism baked in to make up for the real life human tendancies that Communism ignored.
 
2003-03-13 12:36:58 AM
03-13-03 12:33:58 AM Rikulrn

Enjoy being sidelined while the world is made a better place, under Bush.


Please tell me you are joking!
 
2003-03-13 12:37:29 AM
HomestarJunior writes: When Clinton felt solo action was necessary in Serbia Wout even a by your leave from the UN the Republicans accepted it as justified and respected his position as CIC...

Quit it with the crack pipe. Republican talking heads like Rush Limbaugh said that Kosovo was wag-the-dog and was going to be another Vietnam. The May 19, 1999 issue of the New York Times reported, "In a victory for the Clinton administration, the Senate...narrowly rejected a measure to set a deadline for withdrawing American ground troops from Kosovo. Gov. George W. Bush of Texas had also criticized the measure, but even so 40 Republicans voted for it."

On April 28, 1999, 139 Republicans voted in favor of a resolution, which read in part: Resolved by the House of Representatives (the Senate concurring), SECTION 1. REMOVAL OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES FROM THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF YUGOSLAVIA. Pursuant to section 5(c) of the War Powers Resolution (50 U.S.C. 1544(c)), the Congress hereby directs the President to remove United States Armed Forces from their positions in connection with the present operations against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia within 30 days after the passage of this resolution or within such longer period as may be necessary to effectuate their safe withdrawal.

If that's what you call respecting a president's role as commander-in-chief, you are a nut case.
 
2003-03-13 12:38:35 AM
Eraser > HomestarJunior
 
2003-03-13 12:39:20 AM
Iaminsane:

You should've seen when I singlehandedly turned a political flamewar into a discussion on pandas.

No farkin' way! Surely you can resolve this whole Iraq thing in a snap then. Get them talking about pandas. They will all think warm and fuzzy thoughts and we'll have world peace. :)
 
2003-03-13 12:39:20 AM
My political views do NOT fit into the classic left-right political scale. I am pro government control of health care like the classic "left-winger" but I also share many of the same views on civil liberties as the classic "right-winger"

see http://www.politicalcompass.org for more details
 
2003-03-13 12:39:27 AM
Actually Iaminsane that was real life socialism as run through the Russians. In true communism this would not be so. Communism is very attractive in theory, it just doesnt hold up in real life.
 
2003-03-13 12:41:04 AM
Haha, I love when Clinton gets brought up by angry republicans.... I mean god damn he was a republican in democrat clothes.

I think they all hate him because he did THEIR job better than them.
 
2003-03-13 12:45:28 AM
When the Russian's in the cold war used nukes next to villages, and they were all exposed to radiation, you know that people didn't start dropping from cancer, and there weren't many birth defects until *2* generations afterwars? Granted most the people now are dead, and the soldiers who took place in the mock battle after they used a nuke to simulate a nuclear war(40K+ Troops running out from bunkers while the cloud was still rusing) it was years and years until they all died(I think something like 98% are dead now though) yet we use depleted uranium which is pretty harmless, and we are the cause for cancer in the world, yay! Btw if your interested in that kind of stuff, buy the 3 VHS set called "The red bomb" it talks about the making of nukes, and how Russia got al ltheir technology, the third tape is really interesting.
 
2003-03-13 12:47:01 AM
I think the Bush Sr. recommendation to get UN backing first is probably the majority opinion, from what I have seen in the polls. People want to make sure to cover their ass if something goes wrong, from missiles fired at Israel, to a siege of Bagdad, to tens of millions of refugees engaged in food riots, any number of things can and will go "wrong" from how the operation is planned.

Another aspect is that President Bush maybe realizing this, and this kind of statement from the ex-pres is political cover, who knows, really?
 
2003-03-13 12:47:32 AM
Too many people waste time arguing about whether one political system is better than another. The problem isn't the system - it's the corruption and tyranny of the people in charge. THAT's the problem. We should fix it.
 
2003-03-13 12:48:46 AM
Depleted Uranium is still 40% radioactive.

Its used in penetrating shells because of its high density and therefore higher kinetic energy when in motion. The problem is when a shell is fired into the side of a tank or a bunker the tremendous friction of impact heats up the DU and vaporizes some of it. Now there are little tiny molecules of DU floating around waiting to be breathed in by people miles around.
 
2003-03-13 12:49:20 AM
IE Gulf War Syndrome
 
2003-03-13 12:50:21 AM
In a sense you are right there WarOnReality. Not on most issues but on the Serb/Bosnia issue Clinton stood up and acted as a leader should. He took action and ignored those who stood against him, and for those of you remaining who think its only Bush the Europeans hate one of the countries that cried rhymes with Prance.

I didnt like much else about Clinton but he knew how to stand up for himself.
 
2003-03-13 12:50:45 AM
Vrax
Yes I did. I can't find it, though. It's somewhat recent, headline about N. Korea finding american spy plane or something.
 
2003-03-13 12:52:22 AM
I don't understand why the US didn't change it's electoral system when it became so painfully clear in 2000 that the old system DID NOT WORK. If they had scrapped the electoral college and implemented true national voting by representation where the new President is simply the person who received the most votes in the nation.
 
2003-03-13 12:53:20 AM
Thats it Bush Sr, send him to bed with no pudding, and ground him and his airforce for a month!
Naughty dubya BAD BOY!

*Smack!*
 
2003-03-13 12:54:02 AM
HomestarJunior
real life socialism as run through the Russians. In true communism this would not be so. Communism is very attractive in theory, it just doesnt hold up in real life

Further proof that reality sucks and humans still aren't evolved enough to handle a concept like communism efficiently. Or maybe devolved? Ants, bees, and termites seem to do something similar to communism, and they're some of the most organized and successful species on the planet.
 
2003-03-13 12:55:05 AM
Because the only people who can change the electoral system were voted into power WITH that system. The only way it will be changed is if there is massive public pressure for it. And most people are too busy working and living their lives to worry too much about it... until something really bad happens.
 
2003-03-13 12:55:59 AM
maybe they should have changed the electoral college system sooner so we wouldnt have ended up W Clinton either. Oh that keeps getting forgotten because the Republicans understood how the system works and didnt cry about it when it happened to them.
 
2003-03-13 12:57:27 AM
KnightShyfte writes: I don't understand why the US didn't change it's electoral system when it became so painfully clear in 2000 that the old system DID NOT WORK.

If Gore had won the electoral college with a minority of popular votes, you can be sure that the issue would still be alive -- because the conservative spin machine would never "get over it."

In fact, there were newspaper articles before the election that contemplated the Republican response to just such a scenario. Bush campaign officials suggested that they would do everything within their power to switch votes of electors or, at the very least, deny Mr. Gore the legitimacy of winning by constantly pointing out his loss in the popular vote. Talk radio and Fox News would certainly have demanded a constiutional amendment. And, the mainstream press would probably have gone along with the idea too.
 
2003-03-13 12:58:05 AM
Iamsane: No, not because it (communism) assumes that people are interested in working, but because it assumes that people are interested in equality.

They are not.

People are fine with everyone else being equal, but the inherent desire is there to be better than, well, the Joneses.
Altruism has never (and will never) been an evolutionary advantage in any species.

Under pure communism, everyone is equal. Sure some are working harder, but they are capable of working harder. Some people get more, but they require more. For better or for worse, this breeds resentment.

If you do have a case (in your example) where excess production yields personal benefits, then you are headed down the road towards a thriving black market capitalist economy. You will discover that people who should be working for X amount of work units, will really be working for X - N units, knowing that it will not make a difference to them personally. Or, they will work for X units, report X - N units, and sell the N units on the black market.

One of the reasons why capitalism is an efficient economic system is because it is pessimistic about human behavior. It assumes that people are motivated by self-interest, which is pretty accurate in my opinion.

You could make convincing arguments that communism is a more humanitarian economic system, but the market is largely amoral.
 
2003-03-13 01:00:36 AM
No we are the most successful species on earth, now or ever. And it is that same competitive drive that put us there. Wout that Karl Marx wouldn't have had time to sit on his butt and dream about fantasy governments.

And Wout the ingenuity of the US that is taking such a bashing here we wouldnt be arguing on the internet. And you doves who claim that nothing good comes of war remember that the internet was originally a military creation called ARPANET.
 
2003-03-13 01:01:12 AM
Iaminsane: Actually ants, bees and termites are the complete opposite of communism. They have an iron dictatorship. The queen controls all and is far more privileged than the drones or the workers.

Oh, and sorry for earlier the earlier spelling of your name.
 
2003-03-13 01:01:54 AM
I can't really say i've liked many presidents.

The only one I can think of is JFK, sure nobody was perfect, but....

He signed a bill calling for the US treasury (Not the Federal Reserve) to print 480 billion dollars in United States of America Notes, which were backed by gold and silver. This would have taken off much dependency on the Federal Reserve, which charges us interest on the money it loans us.

Also he almost abolished the CIA, and he told 'operation Northwoods' to fark itself.

Whatever the reasons were for his assassination, you know that he was trying to screw over some elites, most likely putting the We The People first priority.
 
2003-03-13 01:02:35 AM
Oh yeah, when johnson got into office he quickly repealed that executive order about the money.
 
2003-03-13 01:03:33 AM
Interesting point Eraser8 :)
 
2003-03-13 01:05:30 AM
HomestarJunior -
I realize that there's a lot of words there, but you might want to read some of
this website
. For your own good. Cuz I'm worried about you. Seriously.
 
2003-03-13 01:05:54 AM
But if there wasn't money...and education was properly rigged to teach students that money is evil or something and community service would take up some portion of schooltime and physical training were required...you just need to breed people differently. Obviously most people alive now wouldn't work with communism correctly, but that's because they weren't raised to.

Also the point can be brought up that all political systems have tons of faults and there will never be a "good" government system.
 
2003-03-13 01:06:06 AM
Well, it looks like the former President Bush is going to get a visit from Ashcroft's office for his treasonous dissent. Patriotism means blind loyalty, dammit!
 
2003-03-13 01:06:30 AM
Oh talk about pot and Kettle calling.

Republicans wouldnt have let the issue die? please. When yall Dems stop whining about stolen elections 3 years after the deal Ill listen to that theory with a straight face
 
2003-03-13 01:07:17 AM
HomestarJunior writes: maybe they should have changed the electoral college system sooner so we wouldnt have ended up W Clinton either.

You are a monumental bonehead. Mr. Clinton won both the electoral vote and the popular one.

the Republicans understood how the system works and didnt cry about it when it happened to them.

When the New York Daily News asked a Bush aide about the possibility of Gore's winning the electoral vote and losing the popular poll, he replied: "The one thing we don't do is roll over -- we fight"

According to the paper:

[T]he core of the emerging Bush strategy assumes a popular uprising, stoked by the Bushies themselves, of course. In league with the campaign -- which is preparing talking points about the Electoral College's essential unfairness -- a massive talk-radio operation would be encouraged...

We'd have ads, too," said a Bush aide, "and I think you can count on the media to fuel the thing big-time. Even papers that supported Gore might turn against him because the will of the people will have been thwarted."

Local business leaders will be urged to lobby their customers, the clergy will be asked to speak up for the popular will and Team Bush will enlist as many Democrats as possible to scream as loud as they can.


And, from the Boston Herald:

The Bush camp, sources said, would likely challenge the legitimacy of a Gore win, casting it as an affront to the people's will and branding the Electoral College as an antiquated relic...One informal Bush adviser, who declined to be named, predicted Republicans would likely benefit from a storm of public outrage if Bush won the popular vote but was denied the presidency: "That's what America is all about, isn't it. I'm sure we would make a strong case."
 
daz
2003-03-13 01:08:25 AM
03-12-03 11:16:54 PM Big Al
If it is such a major threat, why aren't countries lining up with the US to stop Saddam? Hint- Because they know he's a big joke.


Um, they are, what are you talking about? I guess this is why there is anti-war/anti-American people, because they have no clue.

Saudi Arabia is all for it, Kuwait is all for it, Iran doesn't have a problem with it, Jordan is cool, Syria biatches about everything everyone does, Israel is for it, Afghanistan is for it, Turkey is for it... how many more middle east neighbors do you need?

Saudi Arabia and Kuwait can't get rid of Saddam fast enough. Turkey wants Saddam gone, they're just not sure whether how they want to deal with the Kurds, and helping the US may imply that they have to play by US rules when dealing with the Kurds, which is the major issue involved in the whole "can US launch attacks from Turkish soil" business.
 
2003-03-13 01:08:26 AM
Just curious if you wear a tinfoil hat Big Al? And if its to keep the aliens or govt from reading/stealing your thoughts?
Also you put on your pants one leg at a time or two?;)
 
2003-03-13 01:09:27 AM
Jalan
No, you fool. Tin foil hats are for cooking brains.
 
2003-03-13 01:10:08 AM
Eraser8 and KnightShyfte: I know that a lot of people complain about the 2000 election, but, regardless of which side you are on, I think it did work.

The matter was argued by lawyers in courts. The courts handed down decisions. Power was transitioned peacefully. In 2004, there will be another election, which Bush may or may not win.

You may disagree with the decisions or motivations of the courts or the parties involved, but... the system held together. Neither side took armed partisans to the streets, or appealed for military intervention. Another election will be held. Congressmen still bicker about laws.

It wasn't a particular pretty or graceful demonstration of democracy (and yes, I know we aren't strictly speaking a democracy), but things held together.

Just my opinion at any rate.
 
2003-03-13 01:10:16 AM
I think the anti-peace masters would do better if they explained the economics of the war both long term and short. And possibly the geo-political strategy of it all, like hey we need to control this oil so china doesnt get ahold of it or something like that.

The fact that they rely on this kiddy fairy tale fear BS, tells me there isnt a very much in it for the people. (OR they would have undoubtedly shoved it down our throats by now)
 
2003-03-13 01:10:43 AM
Patronization is so pathetic Infectious. I am quite well aware of that website. And many others on the subject.

Your worried about me because I believe in my country warts and all?

Id say that makes you the person to worry about.
 
2003-03-13 01:11:42 AM
Daz-

Saudi Arabi is NOT all for the war on Iraq. They won't even let the US use bases in its country unless Saudi Arabi itself is attacked!
 
2003-03-13 01:12:36 AM
I don't like bush one bit, but you guys would seriously rather have Al Gore in office? No really, serious?
 
2003-03-13 01:13:12 AM
Saudi Arabia is all for it, Kuwait is all for it, Iran doesn't have a problem with it, Jordan is cool, Syria biatches about everything everyone does, Israel is for it, Afghanistan is for it, Turkey is for it... how many more middle east neighbors do you need?

Saudi Arabia is against it, Iran definetly doesnt support it, they are next anyhow, Jordan - nope, Israel is pushing for it, Afghanistan is under US military occupation, Turkey was only in it fro the 4 billion we promised them, but they still denied us use of their bases. You may be thinking of GUlf War 1
 
2003-03-13 01:14:39 AM
Pfft, everybody knows brains are best in stew. Speaking of that, anyone else seen the absolutely crappy movie called "another heaven" ? It's horrid, but man was it a riot while high...Still haven't found a movie worse then Terror Toons, anyway a bit off topic~
 
2003-03-13 01:14:46 AM
Weeflerunner, the measure of a system's effectiveness can't be left to whether the matter was settled in the courts or on the streets. The only proper measure is whether the system produced the results it was designed to produced; whether it worked as it was designed to work. On both counts, there is a very good argument that the system failed miserably.
 
2003-03-13 01:16:03 AM
Oddly, I think the last election was an example of why we need an electoral college. If presidents were voted on by raw votes, we would have needed to recount every single state instead of just florida. Then do we need a majority (greater than 50%) total to become pres? Sure a different way to organize the college might be better, but its basic principle makes for a quicker decision during a very close election.
 
2003-03-13 01:16:35 AM
Hey, Rikulrn...

 
2003-03-13 01:16:55 AM
Daz,

I'd actually call Turkey a fence sitter on this one for the very reason you mentioned. The Kurdish groups in Iraq will likely establish their own region in Iraq and Turkey is worried that might cause problems W their Kurdish minorities.

But as Ive said before according to the leftists here its OK for France to prop up a murderous dictator for financially motivated reasons, but its not OK for the US to want to remove said dictator because money may be involved. And then the leftists wonder why they are though to be unAmerican
 
2003-03-13 01:16:58 AM
Let's not forget why we have Saddam in the first place :-

"The target suffered a terminal illness before a firing squad in Baghdad."

-- CIA officer testifying to US Senate hearing, after bloody CIA aided Ba'th Party coup overthrew Iraqi Prime Minister Abdel Kassem, 1963

Abdel Kassem was a dirty socialist oil nationalisation proponent. DIE COMMIE SCUM.

Oh, he already did. Yay Yay USA !
 
2003-03-13 01:17:27 AM
 
2003-03-13 01:18:14 AM
Can we eliminate the word "Bush" from out vocabulary now?
 
2003-03-13 01:18:19 AM
HomestarJunior:

And Wout the ingenuity of the US that is taking such a bashing here we wouldnt be arguing on the internet. And you doves who claim that nothing good comes of war remember that the internet was originally a military creation called ARPANET.

Wow! I'd call that the single most stupid post I've seen today. But, unfortunately, it's been quite a day and I couldn't say that without lying. It's interesting that ARPANET was a fruit of war and not of an interest in the advancement of inter-computer communications for efficient information sharing. Didn't know that.
 
2003-03-13 01:18:34 AM
Weeflerunner: "The courts handed down decisions"

Yes, and of the 9 supreme court judges that handed down that decision, 5 were appointed by repulican presidents. What a shock the republican won eh?
 
2003-03-13 01:20:07 AM
Just for the record, I am against the war so our current system can fail and we can rebuild, hell maybe we could control this new one.
 
2003-03-13 01:20:19 AM
-if this wasn't so predictable...it would be funny.
 
2003-03-13 01:21:25 AM
Iaminsane: Okay, let's assume that you are right and it is possible to alter human genetic (and you would have to go down to genetic, babies and children are pretty darn selfish) and behavioral make-up so that people are inherently altruistic. (I don't think it is, but let's go with it for the moment.)

How do you get from here to there? Currently, people do not have any incentive to make their decendants less competitive. If anything, just the opposite.

And how do you get the money to undertake such an experiment? Odds are the people with capital, are, well, capitalists.

I suspect that if people said, "Hey, let's give up money and power!" the general reaction would be: "OK! Um... You first!" And whoever was the last one left would make out like a bandit.

Maybe I'm pessimistic about human nature. I suppose it is possible that a major, earth shattering event could trigger some sort of overall change in attitudes, but I doubt it.

Oh, and I would say that strictly speaking communism is an economic system, not a political system, although there are doubtlessly many who would disagree.
 
2003-03-13 01:21:57 AM
I don't much care for this nuisance of a gov't we have. Actually, the corporate sector of our establishment is the worst part, i'd like to decentralize gov't and power, and end the elitist banking cartel.

/trying to save humanity
 
2003-03-13 01:22:01 AM
KnightShyfte writes: 5 were appointed by repulican presidents.

Actually, 7 were. The only justices appointed by a Democrat are Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Steven Breyer.
 
2003-03-13 01:22:37 AM
 
2003-03-13 01:22:47 AM
TAKE BACK THE POWER!
 
2003-03-13 01:23:05 AM
03-13-03 01:16:55 AM HomestarJunior

But as Ive said before according to the leftists here its OK for France to prop up a murderous dictator for financially motivated reasons, but its not OK for the US to want to remove said dictator because money may be involved. And then the leftists wonder why they are though to be unAmerican


I hope you include the US in that "prop up murderous dictators" speech you just gave...
 
2003-03-13 01:25:50 AM
HomestarJunior

Your worried about me because I believe in my country warts and all? Id say that makes you the person to worry about.

"Patriotism is the last resort of scoundrels."
-- Samuel Johnson

Which is a paraphrase of:

"Citizenship should be placed above everything else, even learning. Is there in any college of the land a chair of citizenship where good citizenship and all that it implies is taught? There is not one -- that is, not one where sane citizenship is taught. There are some which teach insane citizenship, bastard citizenship, but that is all. Patriotism! Yes; but patriotism is usually the refuge of the scoundrel. He is the man who talks the loudest."
-Mark Twain speech, 5/14/1908

"My instinct as an individualist and artist has always warned me most urgently against this capacity of men for becoming drunk on collective suffering, collective pride, collective hatred, and collective honor. When this morbid exaltation becomes perceptible in a room, a hall, a village, a city, or a country, I grow cold and distrustful; a shudder comes over me, for already, while most of my fellow men are still weeping with rapture and enthusiasm, still cheering and venting protestations of brotherhood, I see blood flowing and cities going up in flames."
-Hermann Hesse: Author (1877-1962)
 
2003-03-13 01:26:06 AM
03-13-03 12:31:14 AM HomestarJunior
OK then how has it affected you Al?

Anyone you know?

Anyone?


What does that matter? The point is that legally the government is allowed to do it. So you have no problem with the government passing a law banning ALL firearms, but they might not enforce it so its OK?

Bull farking shiat
 
2003-03-13 01:26:10 AM
KnightShyfte:

Boy Im glad you Dems (or Dem sympathizers as you claim)arent still holding a grudge over that election thing like you claim the republicans were going to. You sure showed us Right Wingers how much better yall would take it.

Besides since it would have turned out the same way even if Gore would have gotten his recounts does it really matter?
 
2003-03-13 01:28:09 AM
And you doves who claim that nothing good comes of war remember that the internet was originally a military creation called ARPANET.

Yeah, `cuz having two or more computers communicating with each other is so revolutionary those fags at Berkley could never have got it work without the military.
 
2003-03-13 01:30:09 AM
Mark Twain is awesome.

"Statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception." - Mark Twain
 
2003-03-13 01:32:02 AM
Tadlette, you forgot some good ones:

A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.

--Edward Abbey

Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official, save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country. In either event, it is unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or anyone else.

--Theodore Roosevelt

And, my personal favorite:

He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.

--Albert Einstein
 
2003-03-13 01:33:42 AM
Axisted:

I like your response better than mine.
 
2003-03-13 01:34:08 AM
Dammit Axisted, you just made me spill my coffee. :D
 
2003-03-13 01:34:31 AM
to allow evil to flourish all that is required is that good men do nothing..

I can pull up old quotes out of context to suit my purposes too, but that does not make for a valid argument.

What would be more telling here is that upon hearing Evil in my quote most of you probably thought of George Bush and Americas government before you realized I meant Saddam.
 
2003-03-13 01:34:34 AM
"To be a patriot, one had to say, and keep on saying, " Our country, right or wrong," and urge on the little war. Have you not perceived that that phrase is an insult to the nation." - Mark Twain (1906)
 
2003-03-13 01:35:40 AM
Wout its funding Axisted no, they wouldnt have for decades longer
 
2003-03-13 01:37:44 AM
Wow HomestarJunior, you're starting to get it, Bush is evil. Maybe there is hope for you after all.
 
2003-03-13 01:38:24 AM
Eraser8: If you want to measure the effectiveness of the current electoral system by the degree to which it reflects popular opinion, then yes, I agree with you. For better or worse the system isn't designed that way. Election of the most popular candidate is a desireable goal, but not the ultimate one under the current system.

I certainly agree that the current election system needs reform, particularly in the way ballots are handled. There is certainly a large amount of corruption, fraud, and simple mistakes that occur during an election. I don't know what the correct solution to reforming the election system is. I don't think that moving to a direct election system is necessarily the solution.

KnightShyfte: I did not mean to either support or attack the decision of the Supreme Court. I will say that SCOTUS is pretty distant from most party politics. Most appointed judges know have become more apolitical the longer they are in office. It is not surprising that most of the Republican judges agreed with the Bush's arguements. Most of the Republican appointees come from a legal perspective similar to that argued by Bush's lawyers, so they are naturally more likely to agree.

SCOTUS is really a pretty impressive bunch of people - with the exception of Clarence Thomas, who really doesn't belong on the court. He isn't half the legal mind that Marshall was.
 
2003-03-13 01:38:28 AM
"A shoe in the hand is worth two in the bush"

Think about it.
 
2003-03-13 01:38:38 AM
Oh, and Axisted, being someone who used to work at LBNL supporting DOE, NERSC, and ALS systems I can tell you that all those folks are certainly fags and very stupid to boot.
 
2003-03-13 01:40:01 AM
03-13-03 01:38:24 AM Weeflerunner

SCOTUS is really a pretty impressive bunch of people - with the exception of Clarence Thomas, who really doesn't belong on the court. He isn't half the legal mind that Marshall was.


Thomas is an oftly good tool, though.
 
2003-03-13 01:40:03 AM
"For every thousand chopping at the branches of evil, there is one chopping at the root."
 
2003-03-13 01:43:00 AM
WarOnReality:

So, I guess Bush is a root man, right?

/heh...heh heh
 
2003-03-13 01:43:12 AM
But there your acting under the mistaken assumption that you are a good man KnightShyfte.

Quite frankly Bush means little to me, I would support this war if Gore was president and pushing for it too. Unlike most of you Ive risked my life for this country before and if I wasnt old and out of shape and a single dad Id go back for this one.
 
2003-03-13 01:43:38 AM
Big Al: Thomas is one of the reasons that I oppose the current administration's effort to limit the advice and consent function of Congress.

Regardless of the merit of the current candidates, the barrier to entry for a federal judge should be higher, not lower.
 
2003-03-13 01:46:34 AM
And Id appreciate the Fag stuff stopping, I may be a heartless Right Winger but I have a gay Uncle, sister and some gay friends as well. I find it ironic that I have to ask yall that considering
 
2003-03-13 01:47:11 AM
Weefle: This electoral system is a joke. I dont know how easy it would be to change it, since technically, nothing in the constitution can be unconstitutional. What we need to count is the popular vote. PERIOD. Thats all that matters. Our electoral system, one of the MANY reasons why this country is so far from being a democracy.
 
2003-03-13 01:47:39 AM


I so want that on a t-shirt!

How much trouble could I get in? (thanks Smoking Gun for the picture)
 
2003-03-13 01:48:04 AM
HomestarJunior-

Mistaken assumption? I don't hit people, I help my fellow man and I believe in the phrase 'Live and let live'
 
2003-03-13 01:48:47 AM
And let it die Big Al, I think we all heard enough about Clarences "tool" during his confirmation hearings.

We dont need to bring out Long Dong Silver again
 
2003-03-13 01:48:54 AM
HomestarJunior:

Unlike most of you Ive risked my life for this country before and if I wasnt old and out of shape and a single dad Id go back for this one.

Well, if you can't find an intelligent reason to not go to war, then your reasons are good enough.
 
2003-03-13 01:49:24 AM
dont take the fag shiat to heart. No one means to insult you, just like no one means to insult someone w/o a dad by calling them a bastard. The word now has a different meaning and you cant take that shiat seriously.
 
2003-03-13 01:49:37 AM
1. Put in the Ba'ath party to stop commies taking over Iraq.

2. Put in the Shah and a General as Prime Minister to stop commies taking over Iran and nationalising oil. Result - popular revolt of the citizens in which the Islamic Party step into the power vacuum and you end up with the Iran of today.

Not to mention a million dead in the Iran Iraq war.

3. Indonesian President Suharto responsible for the deaths of 500,00 - 1,000,000 following his US-sanctioned coup against Indonesian President Sukarno in 1965, and the deaths of 200,000 during Indonesia's US-sanctioned invasion and occupation of East Timor in 1975. US was primary arms supplier to Indonesia at this time.

4. Henry Kissinger, Secretary of State under Richard Nixon, directed the CIA to overthrow the democratically elected government of socialist President Salvadore Allende in Chile, 1973.

5. Dominican Republic - overthrow of elected President Juan Bosch in 1963 in a US-supported coup.

6. Cuba. Enough said.

7. Regan screwing with the socialist government of Nicaragua.

8. The 1964 military takeover overthrow of Brazil's parliamentary democracy by generals backed by the United States. Described by Lincoln Gordon, Ambassador to Brazil under John Kennedy, as "the single most decisive victory for freedom in the mid-twentieth century"

General Pinochet was the dictator installed.

9. Venezuela - a work in progress.

10. The CIA Phoenix Program, in which allegedly 20,000 South Vietnamese civilians suspected of being Communists were executed without trial.

Comments made by Foreign Affairs office at that time:

"Although the Phoenix Program did undoubtedly kill or incarcerate many innocent civilians, it did also eliminate many members of the Communist infrastructure."

11. Vietnam's national election of 1956. The election was scheduled by the Geneva Accords of 1954, but later cancelled by the US and the US-led government in South Vietnam, for fear that Ho Chi Minh would defeat the US-backed Chief of State.

12. Covert U.S. bombing of Laos. From 1965 to 1973, the U.S. dropped more than 2 million tons of bombs on Laos, more bombs than the U.S. dropped on Japan and Germany during World War II, combined. An estimated 750,000 Laotian civilians were killed by U.S. bombing.

U.S. Under Secretary of State, U. Alexis Johnson had this to say about that bombing in testimony before the US Senate Armed Services Committee:

"[The Laos operation] is something of which we can be proud as Americans. It has involved virtually no American casualties. What we are getting for our money there . . . is, I think, to use the old phrase, very cost effective"

Source: Hearings on Fiscal Year 1972 Authorizations, 22 July 1971, p. 4289.

13. U.S. State Department Under Secretary directed Colonel Robert Heinl to provide U.S. support for 'Papa Doc' Duvalier, whose government killed between 20,000 and 50,000 Haitians from 1957 to 1971

14. "President Rios Montt [is] a man of great personal integrity and commitment who wants to improve the quality of life for all Guatemalans, and [is] getting a bum rap on human rights."

--President Ronald Reagan, praising Guatemala's military dictator in 1982; during the 17 months of Rios Montt's "Christian" campaign (1982-83), 400 villages were destroyed, 10,000-20,000 Indians were killed, and over 100,000 were forced to flee to Mexico

Source: Press conference, Dec. 4, 1982, New York Times, 7 December, 1982; America's Watch: Report on Human Rights & U.S. Policy (1985), p. 199


I know there are more I could have listed.

Yet we are to believe the US cares about civilians and has the thought of democracy in mind in the coming attack.

LOL !

Source of the next terrorist attacks, millions of freaking pissed of South Americans ?
 
2003-03-13 01:49:48 AM
electoral system is a joke? I think take it away and it'll be a bigger joke, people togather are stupid. Like I said earlier, I don't like bush one bit, but gore would have been quite a bit worse I'm willing to bet...
 
2003-03-13 01:51:25 AM
was a joke KnyteShyft to counter yours, I dont even know you
 
2003-03-13 01:52:51 AM
Doh. Was General Pinochet the dictator installed in Brazil or Chile ?

Think I made a mistake there.
 
2003-03-13 01:56:09 AM
And Id appreciate the Fag stuff stopping, I may be a heartless Right Winger but I have a gay Uncle, sister and some gay friends as well. I find it ironic that I have to ask yall that considering

What? Everyone's talking about sticks and you come out with that admission. :)
 
2003-03-13 01:57:18 AM
I wasn't exactly joking. If the nukes fly while Bush is in power, then my statement will be true.
 
2003-03-13 01:58:09 AM
Weeflerunner writes: If you want to measure the effectiveness of the current electoral system by the degree to which it reflects popular opinion...

I was thinking of something more elemental. The election process did not work as it was designed to work. We don't even need to ask the question of whether the current system is the best for our wants and needs.

Most of the Republican appointees come from a legal perspective similar to that argued by Bush's lawyers, so they are naturally more likely to agree.

Actually, the Republican justices ruled in a way completely inconsistent with their judicial philosophy. In case after case after case, they have dismissed equal protection claims unless it can be proved that the discrimination was purposeful. No one even made that argument in this case. It is little wonder that the majority stipulated that the reasoning used to reach the decision was to be limited to the present circumstances. The majority obviously didn't want anyone else to receive the kind of protection they were giving to Mr. Bush.
 
2003-03-13 02:01:01 AM
KnightShyfte:

If our nukes fly while Bush is in power there should be a massive revolt and Bush should be publicly executed.
 
2003-03-13 02:01:19 AM
HomestarJunior: Wout its funding Axisted no, they wouldnt have for decades longer

From what I understand, ARPA's contracts were very small. ALL they needed to do was design a standard for network communication. The technology was there, the specifications were not. If you know what you're talking about, let me know. Of course, ARPA was the result of the cold war's nuclear proliferation. I suppose you are suggesting that having to answer the question "How the fark are we going to communicate following a war of nuclear attrition?" gives the military an A+ for effort?
 
2003-03-13 02:01:31 AM
Tadlette : Chile
 
2003-03-13 02:01:52 AM
OK Tadlett but lets remember that WWI and WWII could have been drastically shortened if not stopped had we not been isolationist at the time. Inaction can be as dangerous as action sometimes.

If we invade Iraq now and the region gets worse then it was a bad idea. If we let it ride and 2 years from now Saddam tests his first nuke then tells Saudi Arabia that its second is ready to land on Al Riyadah if they sell us any more oil then I guess you folks will feel pretty dumb.


You can't go back, after WWII we were expected to be the worlds policemen, and like the real police the US will be hated by those countries that live outside or on the edge of the law.
 
2003-03-13 02:05:15 AM
It's been fun, everybody. But, it's time for me to get some shut-eye. Later.
 
2003-03-13 02:06:09 AM
Kinda off topic, but this is actually a pretty funny SNL skit. I can't believe Robert Deniro just said "Moustaf Herod Apyur Poupr".
 
2003-03-13 02:06:46 AM
Deny and lie; We are attacking Iraq soley for retribution and saying to the world "someone has to pay for 9/11 and Iraq truly sux in all aspects of human interaction"

Deny and lie; We are saying to the world " We are the Farking leaders and if you Fark with us there will be grave consequences"

Deny and lie; I originally riled against an unrecalled Farker who swore we were going in and taking Iraq's oil reserves but I have to contend that will be another logical outcome of this war.
 
2003-03-13 02:08:02 AM
you people must be on drugs. Do you really think nuclear weapons will be launched over this? please wake up and smell the clue.

Yes Im aware that Bush said he would consider it if Saddam used Chem warfare. but if you have a gun pointed at someone with a knife would you tell them "I wont use this if you stab me" ?

No if you have the bigger weapon you have to keep the threat out there otherwise its useless. For people that claim to be intelligent you don't have much common sense
 
2003-03-13 02:11:38 AM
and Culov,

I didnt take it to heart, just asked it to stop. Fag has no other meaning unless your British though, in which case it means cigarrette.

and Vrax, what admission? Should I be ashamed to be open minded and accepting of people for who they are rather than who they sleep with?
 
2003-03-13 02:14:19 AM
"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand." - Bertrand Russell
 
2003-03-13 02:14:55 AM
HomestarJunior:

If we invade Iraq now and the region gets worse then it was a bad idea. If we let it ride and 2 years from now Saddam tests his first nuke then tells Saudi Arabia that its second is ready to land on Al Riyadah if they sell us any more oil then I guess you folks will feel pretty dumb.

Yup. We'll feel pretty dumb. In fact, so we don't ever have to feel dumb, we should just nuke every little upstart now so that there is no question about feeling dumb in the future. Cause feeling dumb is bad and war is the only way to be sure we won't have to endure the shame of dumbness. Oh, BTW, can you describe what, exactly, dumb feels like so we'll know what to expect? You seem to be an expert.

/feeling mean tonight...not dumb...mean :)
 
2003-03-13 02:19:04 AM
This war is going to open so much crap on us that we will literally worry about bending down to tie our shoes. This could easily accellerate into apocolyspe size dimensions in the scope of 6 to 12 months. We could be invading Turkey to protect the Kurds who backed us against Iraq while Korea supplies em with weapons which opens the door for China...who really wants to have anything to do with this conflict?

Freaking box him and forget him.
 
2003-03-13 02:22:32 AM
You know...Why do you people insist on arguing online like this? Does it really make you feel beter to be "right"? And do you really think you will be able to convince all the "wrong" people how "right" you are? Is this fun? Is this advancing you all as humans? Couldn't you be doing something more constuctive with you time, such as learning a foreign language or something? I mean, really, what do you guys see in this?
 
2003-03-13 02:23:34 AM
Pinoche was from Chile. He was installed at the insistance of jackass at large Henry Kissinger.
 
2003-03-13 02:25:45 AM
HomestarJunior:

and Vrax, what admission? Should I be ashamed to be open minded and accepting of people for who they are rather than who they sleep with?

Uhhh...Noooo. Facetious comment there. I happen to live in an area, and always have, where sexual orientation is about as important/unimportant, take your pick, as having a nose. I don't want to or mean to offend, especially with a term used in a rediculous manner with virtually no context. Anyway...
 
2003-03-13 02:26:54 AM
HomestarJunior, Just to reconcile some differences here I'd just like to say that I am, despite voicing opposition on Fark, basically on the fence when it comes to Iraq. I just don't subscribe to any of the adminstration's justifications. Certainly a unilateral US-inforced regime change may have some immediate material benefits to the region, but so would allowing his compliance to continue and lifting sanctions that are damaging his people (and not him, I don't see why Saddam should be prevented from aquiring elementary educational textbooks or diapers, but maybe he's stranger than I thought.)
 
2003-03-13 02:27:07 AM
It's fun Gozer114. Besides, I'm trying to win the hearts and minds of the people in order to start a new world empire, and what are you doing? Learning a language? Why set your sights so low?
 
2003-03-13 02:28:04 AM
Tadlette - "Peaceful protest has gotten them nothing but ever further encroaching settlements and a gradual takeover of Jerusalem. "

As opposed to terrorism, which has gotten them.. er... help me out, here.

The utter lack of improvement over the past 50 years PROVES MY FREAKING POINT. Terrorism screws you. It cancels out concurrent peaceful protest.

Without exploded dance clubs, images of shredded teenagers, and airplane-cum-craters to point at, how on earth could Israel justify its actions?

It couldn't.

Israel is in the position of power here. Israel has the ability to wipe out the Palestinians. If you excuse the actions of the terrorists, because they are fighting the best they can with what they've got (an excuse I reject because of the nature of their targets), then you must also excuse the Israelis if they defend themselves to the best of their ability.

I'm glad that Israel hasn't. This could all be academic.
 
2003-03-13 02:29:29 AM
Tonguedepressor:

This could easily accellerate into apocolyspe size dimensions in the scope of 6 to 12 months.

Speaking of which, where are the Nostradamus links when we need them. Good comments they can produce!
 
2003-03-13 02:29:50 AM
Confabulat
VideoVader

If I believe the mantra of an entire party (i.e. liberals

Liberals are a Party? I had no idea. Please define what the word "liberal" means for me. Listening to talk radio, I can tell that:

If you are anti-war, you are a liberal. If you are a follower of Krishnamurti instead of Jesus, you are a liberal. If you are a homosexual, you are a liberal. If you are black, you *probably* are a liberal. If you are in favor of the First Amendment, you are a liberal. However, if you are against the Second Amendment, you are also a liberal. If you are against the drug war, you are a liberal. If you are a feminist, you are a liberal. If you are in favor of American due process for those suspected of terrorism links, you are a liberal. If you respect Jimmy Carter, you are a liberal. If you think Rush might sometimes be wrong, you are a liberal.

I mean, liberals have a hell of a platform! It seems a bit disjointed to me, though.

Have you ever thought that the word "liberal" has no meaning at all? Except to mean, you AREN'T a good white Christian Republican.

Does it blow your mind that there might be shades of gray out there? Or is the world really that simple, black and white, us versus them?



Actually, yes, there is such thing as the Liberal Party, just as there is the Communist and Socialist Parties.

If you insist on using the term "liberal" in the looser sense, then also take the term "party" in the looser sense of a group of people who share the same opinion on a given set of topics and insist on referring to themselves under a particular name, not capital "Party" as in the Democratic or Republican Party.

By the way, I don't assign the term "liberal" haphazardly to anyone I disagree with, as you so politely imply. Many people refer to themselves as "liberal" as their school of thought, unrelated to the Liberal Party) and are proud of it, so that's what I will call them. However, if they agree with that school of thought on a particular subject, and I debate the validity of their argument, I will also be debating the validy of the "party's" school of thought on this topic, and thus that fact will very likely play into the debate. When it does, I will refer to my opponent's "party" however s/he wishes.

I don't use the term "liberal" as a pejorative term, unlike who when you imply that a "good white Christian Republican" is intolerant to other people's views. I have friends who match that description, and they're some of the most level-headed people I know.

And I've got plenty of friends who are in the gray area; liberal on some topics, conservative on others, and everything in between. I know there are plenty of shades of gray in any political school of thought. Think about that next time you call someone a "good white Christian Republican" as a euphemism for "intolerant idiot."
 
2003-03-13 02:35:59 AM
My thinking is that terrorism is great fuel for further Israeli colonization, kinda like 9/11 is great fule for the American right. Both justify military reactions and nationalism. Of course, I can't find an American equivilent to Rabbis proposing the complete extermination of the Palestinian people so that the Biblical borders of Israel may be restablished.
 
2003-03-13 02:36:38 AM
Gozer114:

You know...Why do you people insist on arguing online like this? Does it really make you feel beter to be "right"? And do you really think you will be able to convince all the "wrong" people how "right" you are? Is this fun? Is this advancing you all as humans? Couldn't you be doing something more constuctive with you time, such as learning a foreign language or something? I mean, really, what do you guys see in this?

Apparently you've missed the Centrino thread. We're making a difference. The President is reading right now, I know it!
 
2003-03-13 02:37:01 AM
Gozer114: I have a rule to never join a club that would would have me as a member, if that helps at all.
 
2003-03-13 02:42:06 AM
VideoVader:

Think about that next time you call someone a "good white Christian Republican" as a euphemism for "intolerant idiot."

Yeah, but those two. I mean, not the best example to prove your point there. :)
 
2003-03-13 02:44:53 AM
03-12-03 08:18:12 PM Fb-
Ivan,
Haha.. good one.. thanks for taking care of that for me.. everybody cries like a biatch about 3000 people in the US dying.. but nobody cries about the 20,000 Iraqi civilians that are going to die in Iraq.. strange world..



Fb- has obviously been taken captive by dirty hippies who are now posting under his name to undermine the effort to free Iraq from saddam and the burden of so much oil. So mark my words, if you harm one hair on Fb-'s head, I'll be mildly displeased!
 
2003-03-13 02:45:52 AM
 
2003-03-13 02:47:31 AM
Actually, I think that the palestinians have the right idea. (keep in mind that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.) The suicide bombings are raising hell with Israel's economy and have caused a fair amount of instability within the Israeli government. The palestinians have nothing to lose at this point and everything to gain. Israel is in a no-win situtation as long as it continues with it's current support of militant zionist expansion into the palestinian territories.

Middle east in a nutshell: On one side, militant zionist extremists, and on the other side suicidal muslim extremists. I say we quit supporting either side and let them duke it out till they either decide to make peace, or kill each other off. The winner can send us a post card when they're done.
 
2003-03-13 02:50:27 AM
The Christian Right are usually neither.
 
2003-03-13 02:54:16 AM
Gozer114:
this is fun, that's why

Interesting note about this whole thread:

My parents are in their mid/late 60's, and are very conservative--to the extent that they can't hide their disgust when my hair is bleached or the wrong length. Dad has been in banking his whole professional career. He's a Hotchkiss/Princeton/OCS/Stanford grad. My mom worked at SRI and is super intelligent. They visited me last weekend (and hassled me into getting a haircut). Bush Sr. had a fundraiser at my house when he was running against Reagan. My parents, when asked, told me their opinions about Bush Jr.:

Dad: "I really can't tell you what's going through his head. I don't think anybody can. I'm glad you're not in the military. I think he really has the potential to get this country in a lot of hot water."

Mom: "He seems like a kook."

For me, the wild child of conservative (but smart and fantastic) parents, enough said.
 
2003-03-13 02:56:42 AM
Infectious_brain_disease:

That is one of my all time favorite quatrains. :)
 
2003-03-13 02:58:16 AM
(keep in mind that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.)

That depends on the person, I guess. I always figured the difference was that one sticks to targets of military significance, the other goes out of its way to kill innocent civilians.

As was said earlier, conventional warfare was invented for a reason. Terrorists are giving the developed world little choice but to go back to treating combatants and civilians as one and the same.
 
2003-03-13 03:07:33 AM
 
2003-03-13 03:11:08 AM
Infectious_brain_disease

No way - I thought that was a fake, like the two brothers thing.

So all those 'A village somewhere in Texas is missing its idiot' signs were actually referencing Nos. prophecy ?

*goes to check*
 
2003-03-13 03:20:31 AM
What? I got that pic from a perfectly respectable website that had animated GIFs and everything! You mean there's inaccuracies on the internet?
/sarcasm

I don't care. It's funny cuz it's true.

By the way, nice fish there Tadlette.
 
2003-03-13 03:23:45 AM
It is a hoax, but one loosely based on reality.

The real one is almost as good !

To an old leader will be born an idiot heir,
Weak both in knowledge and in war.
The leader of France is feared by his sister,
Battlefields divided, conceded to the soldiers.
[Found through Nostradamus Search Engine]

or this alternate translation:

To an old chief will be born one with dull senses
Degenerate both in knowledge and in weapons:
The chief of France feared by his sister,
Fields divided, conceded to the soldiers on horses.
[From: Nostradamus: The Complete Prophecies by John Hogue]
 
2003-03-13 03:24:52 AM
That there fish was good eatin' :)
 
2003-03-13 03:25:51 AM
That depends on the person, I guess. I always figured the difference was that one sticks to targets of military significance, the other goes out of its way to kill innocent civilians.

Since when? Surgical warfare is a matter of technology and a matter of destroying technology. In Vietnam they thought they could eliminate the Viet Cong surgically but resorted to killing a few (4?) million North Vietnamese by carpet bombing North Vietnam to force their surrender. It didn't work. There were apparently something like 100,000 civilian deaths in the Gulf War too. Maybe just collateral damage, but it may the invasion of Kuwait look like a game. Total war, targetting civilians, is a 20th. pheomena, though, as far sa I know.
 
2003-03-13 03:27:52 AM
Tadlette and I_b_d:

In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apart by Chaos,while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb''The third big war will begin when the big city is burning'- Nostradamus 1654 ...on the 11 day of the 9 month that...two metal birds would crash into two tall statues...in the new city..and the world will end soon after"Â "From the book of Nostradamus"

This is the best one. How did that guy know this stuff would happen. Amazing! :)
 
2003-03-13 03:32:17 AM
Beat poetry on late-night Canadian TV. Zed is a great show.
Thanks for the link Elbe.
 
2003-03-13 03:32:24 AM
*thwacks Vrax with something heavy*
 
2003-03-13 03:34:22 AM
Little factoid here -
Saddam did NOT gas Halabja.

Turned out that the gas was used by the Iranians in a battle in the Iran - Iraq war. The population of Halabja had the bad luck to get caught in the middle. The gas was a type that the Iranian military had, but not the Iraqi military

Not that I'm defending Saddam. He's a tyrant and the world won't miss him when he's gone. But go after him for things he has done, instead of making things up. Hell, he's got a long enough rap sheet that there's no reason to have to concoct stories.

Flame on, guys.
 
2003-03-13 03:35:44 AM
Tadlette:

Ouch! Hey, that's my leg. Give it back!
 
2003-03-13 03:39:33 AM
Tadlette:

I just realized that you hit me for my lack of punctuation skills. Deserved I guess. I never did get the hang of that "?" thing.
 
2003-03-13 03:45:25 AM
Axisted - "Since when?"

As I said, it depends on the person. To the state department, a terrorist is the guy who throws a brick through the Starbucks window, and everyone who supports him.

Total war isn't really a 20th century phenomenon. I seem to remember that burning, raping and killing everything too slow to run away used to be a pretty common practice in ye olde tymes.
 
2003-03-13 03:46:27 AM
I thwacked you for making people believe in that two brothers Nostradamus thingie, prolly because I fell for it for all of about an hour and am still sensitive about it :)
 
2003-03-13 03:50:12 AM
 
2003-03-13 03:53:07 AM
Tadlette:

:( I'm sorry. I feel bad now. But, an hour? Man, that's an abnormally long time to fall for the old fake Nostradmus quatrain trick. :D

Here's a real one just to make you feel better:

The sky will burn at forty-five degrees latitude, Fire approaches the great new city immediately a huge, scattered flame leaps up when they want to have verification from the Normans.
 
2003-03-13 03:57:07 AM
Nostradmus?? Can't spell, can't punctuate. Must be low on caffeine. brb
 
2003-03-13 04:03:16 AM
Vrax

MEAN ! *sulks*
 
2003-03-13 04:04:15 AM
shiat. Everyone knows the "great new city" is Chicago. Hell it barely existed 100 years ago. New York is what, 400 years old?
 
2003-03-13 04:05:31 AM
I lean toward the left politically, but I had no problem with Bush Sr.'s foreign policy. At the very minimum, you could say "well, at least he's not an absolute idiot." He had the experience and the knowledge to take care of biz.
 
2003-03-13 04:08:30 AM
Dimator - Heh, I'm all for leaning. My right leg is shorter than my left...
 
2003-03-13 04:12:19 AM
Tadlette:

On the 13th day of the 3rd month at about 4am
Xarv will be horribly mean
Three sixes will be found on his head...or maybe nines
The end is near
 
2003-03-13 04:43:11 AM
AlleyKat

19. Q: How many tons of depleted uranium were left in Iraq and Kuwait after the Gulf War? A: 40 tons

Depleted. Look up the word some time.




The danger is not directly from radiation, its from the fact that dust like particles of heavy metals aree floating around. Heavy metals are VERY bad for you, and having an Alpha/Gamma/Beta source inside you can't be good either!


From http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/faq_17apr.htm

Q. What makes depleted uranium a potential hazard?

A. Depleted uranium is a heavy metal that is also slightly radioactive. Heavy metals (uranium, lead, tungsten, etc.) have chemical toxicity properties that, in high doses, can cause adverse health effects. Depleted uranium that remains outside the body can not harm you.

A common misconception is that radiation is depleted uranium's primary hazard. This is not the case under most battlefield exposure scenarios. Depleted uranium is approximately 40 percent less radioactive than natural uranium. Depleted uranium emits alpha and beta particles, and gamma rays. Alpha particles, the primary radiation type produced by depleted uranium, are blocked by skin, while beta particles are blocked by the boots and battle dress utility uniform (BDUs) typically worn by service members. While gamma rays are a form of highly-penetrating energy , the amount of gamma radiation emitted by depleted uranium is very low. Thus, depleted uranium does not significantly add to the background radiation that we encounter every day.

When fired, or after "cooking off" in fires or explosions, the exposed depleted uranium rod poses an extremely low radiological threat as long as it remains outside the body. Taken into the body via metal fragments or dust-like particles, depleted uranium may pose a long-term health hazard to personnel if the amount is large. However, the amount which remains in the body depends on a number of factors, including the amount inhaled or ingested, the particle size and the ability of the particles to dissolve in body fluids.
 
ifq
2003-03-13 05:15:03 AM
bush sr made 2 huge mistakes in his life

1 not having killed saddam in 91
2 gw
 
2003-03-13 05:19:58 AM
Great Googly-Moogly--you see what happens when you go out and have a life, threads upon threads spring up, and you nearly weep for them... I can't really comment on this much more than this:

Bbcrack--DPU is still incredibly toxic to the environment--because sadly, the A-10 and other systems rarely hit their targets with every single shell they fire in a single burst. These lovely little packets of fun then sit in the ground, or trees, or buildings, and quietly decay. Uranium, even without the radioactivity is still quite toxic all by its lonesome. You want a scary scenario, Heinlein wrote a little ditty before we actually went nuclear about a US that used essentially radioactive dust in bombs, much scarier than the nukes we have today, much nastier. DPU isn't in that range, but it's not really good to have around your water table, or near your schools. And that's the problem, when it's used, it sprays higgilidy-piggility around the countryside, at a ridiculously high rounds/sec ratio. Yes, it makes for a wonderful sight, to see metal armor actually burning, but residue from these rounds lasts for a long time after.

Fb- Good to see the master back at work.
 
2003-03-13 07:31:49 AM
I wish Bill Hicks was still here
 
2003-03-13 08:22:36 AM
Listen to your pop george he is right on this. At least one Bush has some common sense.
 
2003-03-13 08:49:02 AM
I think it's time the British did something about their media. Reporting of this nature is very dangerous and potentially damaging to western interests, assuming that any of it is actually true.

God Bless America
 
2003-03-13 08:56:08 AM

Has Anyone Read The Text of The Original Speech ?

I would ask them hypothetically, "Were we wrong back in 1942 - Had we gone into World War II earlier to save a million Jews, and to save one million Poles, would that have been wrong to use force?" I don't know how the protestors say, "No war on any circumstance," would answer a question like that. But, I think, there is such a concept as a just war.


Before believing this one interpretation, look at the data...
 
2003-03-13 09:00:49 AM
AS WE DRAW NEARER TO A FOOLISH WAR, I WOULD LIKE TO PROPOSE A TOAST TO THE ALLIED SERVICE MEMBERS THAT ARE RISKING THEIR LIVES TO SETTLE A VENDETTA BETWEEN SADDAM AND THE BUSH FAMILY. GOOD LUCK AND COME HOME SAFELY.
 
2003-03-13 09:06:56 AM
OK, saddam has rejected the British proposal calling for steps to disarm.

This war is officially Iraqs fault now.

Thank You and goodnight...err morning....
 
2003-03-13 09:21:44 AM
Natejount
AS WE DRAW NEARER TO A FOOLISH WAR, I WOULD LIKE TO PROPOSE A TOAST TO THE ALLIED SERVICE MEMBERS THAT ARE RISKING THEIR LIVES TO SETTLE A VENDETTA BETWEEN SADDAM AND THE BUSH FAMILY. GOOD LUCK AND COME HOME SAFELY.

Isn't that the truth
 
2003-03-13 09:37:42 AM
For Jellyfish:

"We hope you enjoyed your fireworks show. It was so pretty, and it took our mind off of domestic issues! Ah-huh! The Persian Gulf Distraction."
 
2003-03-13 09:51:16 AM
Jalan
I don't like bush one bit, but you guys would seriously rather have Al Gore in office? No really, serious?


Yes.
 
2003-03-13 10:11:48 AM
ZipBeep, we would not be in the crisis we are in now if Al Gore were president. No doubt. This is what happens when the democratic process breaks down and a despot is installed.

BTW, here is the sign I'm going to be carrying at the March on the White House this Saturday, look for me on the news:

And check out my blog while you're at it:
http://templeofgwbush.blogspot.com/

 
2003-03-13 10:25:26 AM
Everyone on this thread seems to have forgotten about the War on Terror.
 
2003-03-13 10:28:35 AM
Vrax

On the 13th day of the 3rd month at about 4am
Xarv will be horribly mean
Three sixes will be found on his head...or maybe nines
The end is near


You bastard. Look what you made me do. *grins* I went and grabbed some Nostradamus stuff and made it over in our image. Be prepared to laugh and be freaked out at the same time. Good old Nostradamus !

Pestilences extinguished, the world becomes small,
For a long time peace is in populated lands:
one will travel safely by air, land, sea and wave,
then the wars stirred up anew.


We had a brief period after World War II and now where peace was the norm rather than the exception. Medical science had almost eradicated the great killer diseases like yellow fever, polio and smallpox. The dawning jet age following the war paved the way for countless millions to travel safely through the skies to every continent over every ocean. We populated our lands, put in communication, and the world shrank due to cheap and frequent travel and telecommunication. The new war stops safe travel, especially by air.

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The miserable unhappy republic
will be ruined by the new magistrate:
their great accumulation in wicked exile
will cause the Suevi to tear up their great contract


Yep, Bush is ruining you alright. I guess a large number of Americans are now exiled from their economic livelihood (jobs) due to the economy, and unrest is growing. Doubles with meaning with the nascent Palestinian state, being ruined by Arafat and with most of their people in exile. Also, accumulate is amass in the French, which may be code for Hamas exiled from Palestine in Lebanon, who have torn up the Geneva/UN (Swiss/Suevi) brokered accords and are waging war.

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Before the change of Empire occurs,
a very marvelous event will take place:
the field moved, the pillar of porphyry
placed, transferred onto the knotty rock.


The event that changes America from a sleeping giant into a feral wounded monster - 9/11. Marvellous does not mean good, rather an event that strikes people dumb and makes them marvel that such an event can be possible. The pillar of porphyry is the mable columns associates with banks and investment companies, and their philosophical embodiment in the WTC. The Pillar is moved (shifted, knocked over) and is then transferred onto an island (knotty rock) as happened with the WTC wreckage.

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Volcanic fire from the center of the earth
will cause trembling around the new city:
Two great rocks will make war for a long time.
Then Arethusa will redden a new river.


A great and powerful fiery explosion (volcano like power) will cause the Towers in the New City to tremble, the two great rocks will be a cause for a long war. Arethusa is a classical Greek nymph who in legend changed herself into a spring. By describing Arethusa as red Nostradamus warns us of rivers of blood.

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Oh, what a horrible and miserable torment,
three innocent ones whom one will come to deliver.
Poison suspected, poorly guarded betrayal:
delivered to horror by drunken executioners.


The deliverers and recipients of the Anthrax letters, who were mostly innocent office workers and mail clerks. Did three die or was it more ? The source was domestic, so some poorly guarded source was taken by an American betrayer and used for terrorism (horror).

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When the litter is overturned by the whirlwind,
and faces will be covered by their cloaks,
the republic will be vexed by new people,
then whites and reds will judge in contrary ways.


The old world order is about to be overturned by the doctrine of pre-emptive war, but people are hiding their eyes from this fact. The USA is complaining because most of the world is against US lead war, even old allies. Uptight white Christians and damned commie scum will draw have totally different opinions about the war.

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The scythe joined with the pond