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(USA Today)   Kentucky high school coach takes the football team on a field trip to his church, gets half of them baptised. Surprisingly, some parents have a problem with this   (usatoday.com) divider line 285
    More: Asinine, Kentucky, Baptist, field trips, baptisms, churches, U.S. Supreme Court, problems, school bus  
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12616 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Sep 2009 at 6:34 AM (4 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2009-09-08 05:25:11 AM
Christians in America often don't understand the problem with this sort of thing because they're under the delusion that they're doing some sort of good deed, and who would object to that?

The issue is quite simple. No public taxpayer money should ever be used to support any religious activities, because every taxpayer has the freedom to participate in any religion he/she prefers, or no religion at all, and that taxpayer's money must NEVER be used to promote a religion against his/her wishes.

That's it. Any business, organization, entity, system, group, building, street, or corner that exists because of tax dollars must be absolutely neutral on religion.

Do people have the right to peacefully protest? Of course. But if the laws are properly upheld, those people will lose.
 
2009-09-08 06:03:59 AM
Epsilon: Christians in America often don't understand the problem with this sort of thing because they're under the delusion that they're doing some sort of good deed, and who would object to that?

Oh, most of them understand it alright. Try to do the same thing with any religion other than theirs and they'll be all about "religious freedom". They just think their religion should be exempt from such restriction. Because they're 'right'.
 
2009-09-08 06:07:33 AM
That coach is either one of the most soul-crushingly stupid people to ever drag himself onto a gridiron, or he's got the biggest pair known to man.
 
2009-09-08 06:41:02 AM
shivashakti: Epsilon: Christians in America often don't understand the problem with this sort of thing because they're under the delusion that they're doing some sort of good deed, and who would object to that?

Oh, most of them understand it alright. Try to do the same thing with any religion other than theirs and they'll be all about "religious freedom". They just think their religion should be exempt from such restriction. Because they're 'right'.


So much this. And this sort of thing goes back (surprising no one). It was a common argument in the south that abolishing or restricting slavery was restricting their freedoms to deny the freedoms of others. Incredible.
 
2009-09-08 06:42:23 AM
Church? Well, at least that's a change from the usual "coach takes his team to a strip club" story.
 
2009-09-08 06:42:57 AM
They thank God when they win. Whose fault is it when they lose?
 
2009-09-08 06:43:13 AM
Epsilon: Christians in America often don't understand the problem with this sort of thing because they're under the delusion that they're doing some sort of good deed, and who would object to that?

The issue is quite simple. No public taxpayer money should ever be used to support any religious activities, because every taxpayer has the freedom to participate in any religion he/she prefers, or no religion at all, and that taxpayer's money must NEVER be used to promote a religion against his/her wishes.

That's it. Any business, organization, entity, system, group, building, street, or corner that exists because of tax dollars must be absolutely neutral on religion.

Do people have the right to peacefully protest? Of course. But if the laws are properly upheld, those people will lose.


So you did not support Obama's Ramadama-ding-dong dinner then?
 
2009-09-08 06:44:08 AM
Well fellas, what do you think's the over under on the number of people who defend this coach's actions while attacking Obama's stay-in-school pep talk?
 
2009-09-08 06:45:07 AM
A) The kids weren't 18, coach should have stayed the fark away from them witht the religious shiat. That's something you do with your family, not with a farking coach.
B) This is a constitutional issue only. Whatever the wharrrgarble, a quick dunking can't actually change a person or how they think...there is no risk of mental subversion here. However, I suppose it makes you wonder when ELSE the coach is pushing his religion on the kids.
C) Again...16 year olds. Even if it wasn't related to religion, you can't make major decisions for minors without getting their guardian's involved. Hell, you can't take them to museums without it, much less baptisms! Epic legal failure. Schools gonna PAAAAAAY....cha-ching.
 
2009-09-08 06:46:37 AM
B) This is a constitutional issue only. Whatever the wharrrgarble, a quick dunking can't actually change a person or how they think...there is no risk of mental subversion here. However, I suppose it makes you wonder when ELSE the coach is pushing his religion on the kids.

Do you really think that the lawyers will see it that way?

The coach is screwed. The school district is probably screwed too.

This was not stupid. This was weapons-grade stupid.
 
2009-09-08 06:46:40 AM
Swampthing in Korea: So you did not support Obama's Ramadama-ding-dong dinner then?

Obama held a musical?
 
2009-09-08 06:48:27 AM
Xetal: B) This is a constitutional issue only. Whatever the wharrrgarble, a quick dunking can't actually change a person or how they think...there is no risk of mental subversion here. However, I suppose it makes you wonder when ELSE the coach is pushing his religion on the kids.

Do you really think that the lawyers will see it that way?

The coach is screwed. The school district is probably screwed too.

This was not stupid. This was weapons-grade stupid.


Of course they won't see it that way...hence my third point, one line below...

Emposter: C) Again...16 year olds. Even if it wasn't related to religion, you can't make major decisions for minors without getting their guardian's involved. Hell, you can't take them to museums without it, much less baptisms! Epic legal failure. Schools gonna PAAAAAAY....cha-ching.
 
2009-09-08 06:50:32 AM
Absolutely staggering. The coach is in dire need of a serious censure at minimum, and possible termination at maximum.

Never mind the fact that it's a public official in a public setting (his public school's sports team) (because separation of C&S is a strong enough argument by itself) ... those were OTHER PEOPLE'S KIDS.

I'm not religious, and I'm not (really) anti-religion, but it's stories like this that make that last part harder and harder to maintain.
 
2009-09-08 06:52:14 AM
I'm christian and am against this. This would be the same as indoctrinating a child into any belief without parental consent...some Christians just don't use their heads...
 
2009-09-08 06:52:49 AM
K3rmy: They thank God when they win. Whose fault is it when they lose?

The Bible says to thank God for EVERYTHING. Win or lose. It's kind of hard to understand if you're not a believer.

It's not a lot easier if you are.
 
2009-09-08 06:53:35 AM
I expect this thread to be full of calm, reasonable discussion on the merits of the coach's actions.

/Would also like a pony
 
2009-09-08 06:54:28 AM
I bet you most of those that took the baptisms only did it to get playing time.

Please the coach in anyway possible = playing time.
 
2009-09-08 06:54:41 AM
As an attorney, I've been in the courthouses of 84 of Kentucky's 120 counties. And in spite of a U.S. Supreme Court case ruling, several of them had the 10 Commandments posted right behind the judge's bench. Usually in at least a 2-foot by 3-foot format.

Some of them tried the "Historical Documents" dodge by having the Magna Carta, Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution posted as well, but those were in 8X11 inch formats and posted on the back wall, or out in the hall.

As a flight attendant once said upon landing at Standiford Field, "Welcome to Louisville, KY. Local time is 1959."
 
2009-09-08 06:54:47 AM

B) This is a constitutional issue only. Whatever the wharrrgarble, a quick dunking can't actually change a person or how they think...there is no risk of mental subversion here. However, I suppose it makes you wonder when ELSE the coach is pushing his religion on the kids.


... or how religious you have to be to get game time... or to be a starter...
 
2009-09-08 06:56:10 AM
Oh, and before some fundie nut-winger goes on about a double standard, it would have been perfectly fine if a teach TAUGHT the students ABOUT baptisms. Exposing kids to knowledge and differing worldviews is fine. In fact, there are classes designed to teach about major religions in most curriculum at some point.
 
2009-09-08 06:57:10 AM
"Sometimes 16 year olds look like 18 year olds. We did the best we could". Why does that not surprise me coming from a pastor?
 
2009-09-08 06:59:25 AM
Not that parents have much control over what their 16 year old sons believe, anyway.
 
2009-09-08 07:00:54 AM
RogueViking: I expect this thread to be full of calm, reasonable discussion on the merits of the coach's actions.

/Would also like a pony


Well, I don't see any merits. Help me out.
 
2009-09-08 07:04:37 AM
What if the coach baptised them into the Muslim faith, do you think people would be so " Oh well then?

The coach and superintendent should be fired.
 
2009-09-08 07:05:10 AM
Pocket Ninja: That coach is either one of the most soul-crushingly stupid people to ever drag himself onto a gridiron, or he's got the biggest pair known to man.

I'm betting on the former, rather than the latter.

Religious indoctrination of beliefs and un-beliefs alike have no place in public school curriculum.
 
2009-09-08 07:05:29 AM
Epsilon: No public taxpayer money should ever be used to support any religious activities

Too late, the Bush education "reforms" (which are inexplicably supported by Obama) push funding away from public schools and into charter schools, which can be run by churches.

Right now, public money is paying not only to indoctrinate Christian kids, but Muslims too! For the public making a whole lotta noise about Obama's allegedly attending a madrassa, WE ARE FUNDING THEM IN THE UNITED STATES RIGHT NOW.
 
2009-09-08 07:07:22 AM
State funds or not, a high school football coach can wield a disproportionate amount of influence. Quite often a first-string position can be a toss up between to two or three candidates.
 
2009-09-08 07:07:35 AM
Leighton: "Sometimes 16 year olds look like 18 year olds. We did the best we could". Why does that not surprise me coming from a pastor?

Everyone involved in this little outing appears to have been real class acts.
 
2009-09-08 07:09:46 AM
Leighton: "Sometimes 16 year olds look like 18 year olds. We did the best we could". Why does that not surprise me coming from a pastor?

Full of Win.
 
2009-09-08 07:10:29 AM
Emposter: C) Again...16 year olds. Even if it wasn't related to religion, you can't make major decisions for minors without getting their guardian's involved.


Then I assume you are also against abortions for minors without parental consent.
 
2009-09-08 07:11:41 AM
The DBS: K3rmy: They thank God when they win. Whose fault is it when they lose?

The Bible says to thank God for EVERYTHING. Win or lose. It's kind of hard to understand if you're not a believer.

It's not a lot easier if you are.


My dad is dying a slow, painful death from bone cancer right now. I guess that would fall into the "lose" column, right?
 
2009-09-08 07:14:58 AM
*sigh*

i249.photobucket.com
 
2009-09-08 07:18:14 AM
Ozarkhawk: My dad is dying a slow, painful death from bone cancer right now. I guess that would fall into the "lose" column, right?

As I understand it, it's a "win" if he's "saved."

/atheist myself...
//you have my godless, backsliding sympathies...
 
2009-09-08 07:18:31 AM
Checklist for doing witness work properly in a public school setting

1. Don't use taxpayer money. check
2. Don't use fire and brimstone tactics to ostracize non-believers. check
3. Have support from local administrators. check
4. Have parental permission concerning minors. fail
5. Make sure to bring plenty of food and drinks. check


Dang.
 
2009-09-08 07:19:25 AM
ahem. christians. id like to take this oppourtunity to tell you that i, and i presume others, dont really care for your particular viewpoint, one that puts you and all in your group, above all others. and while in your supreme arrogance, you may think by attempting to forcibly draw people into your particular group you are doing them a favor, in reality, your being a push ahole.
 
2009-09-08 07:20:08 AM
Ozarkhawk:

My dad is dying a slow, painful death from bone cancer right now. I guess that would fall into the "lose" column, right?


Sorry to hear that man. Cancer sucks.
 
2009-09-08 07:21:19 AM
shivashakti: Epsilon: Christians in America often don't understand the problem with this sort of thing because they're under the delusion that they're doing some sort of good deed, and who would object to that?

Oh, most of them understand it alright. Try to do the same thing with any religion other than theirs and they'll be all about "religious freedom". They just think their religion should be exempt from such restriction. Because they're 'right'.


That's the problem with religion, as a whole. They ALL think they're right. That's one of the biggest reasons our founding fathers wrote the Constitution (especially the First Amendment) the way they did. They wanted to keep that bullshiat out of the law-making process. There was already going to be enough problems with the Federalists/Republicans/Whigs/Democrats/etc thinking THEY'RE right all the time as it was.

K3rmy: They thank God when they win. Whose fault is it when they lose?

Obama.

inthrees: I'm not religious, and I'm not (really) anti-religion, but it's stories like this that make that last part harder and harder to maintain.

Exactly. I *want* to say it was Jesus who said that your actions speak louder than words (horribly paraphrased). I realize that's irrelevant to 80% of the world population, but no matter WHO said it first, it still rings true.

RogueViking: I expect this thread to be full of calm, reasonable discussion on the merits of the coach's actions.

Oh, so do I. So do I.

i249.photobucket.com
 
2009-09-08 07:21:54 AM
INDOCTRINATION

Where's the conservative WHARRGARBL?
 
2009-09-08 07:24:04 AM
Emposter: Swampthing in Korea: So you did not support Obama's Ramadama-ding-dong dinner then?

Obama held a musical?


Obama's whole administration is a musical number.
 
2009-09-08 07:25:41 AM
ripple123: ahem. christians. id like to take this oppourtunity to tell you that i, and i presume others, dont really care for your particular viewpoint, one that puts you and all in your group, above all others. and while in your supreme arrogance, you may think by attempting to forcibly draw people into your particular group you are doing them a favor, in reality, your being a push ahole.

I doubt all Christains are like this. I know a few that are supremely nice guys who don't do what you've accused all of them of doing here.

A very vocal ( and theologically incorrect ) minority don't speak for the majority.
 
2009-09-08 07:29:20 AM

I'm not sure if the "Asinine" tag refers to the parents or the coach since I didn't read the article. So I'm going to vent my extreme displeasure at both:

What kind of witless and empty-headed parents would get upset over the Coach's dimwitted, ludicrous and inane attempts of religious indoctrination? What kind of moran is/are he/they? WTF?


/see you in the next thread.
 
2009-09-08 07:31:28 AM
dgc360: INDOCTRINATION

Where's the conservative WHARRGARBL?



i246.photobucket.com
 
2009-09-08 07:33:23 AM
but but they were baptized with a shipment of tainted holy water.
 
2009-09-08 07:33:42 AM
I wonder how many of those kids got baptized because they just wanted to get into the coach's good graces and make first string varsity?
 
2009-09-08 07:36:21 AM
K3rmy: They thank God when they win. Whose fault is it when they lose?

The non-believing p*ssies who ride pine for his football team.

Ozarkhawk: The DBS: K3rmy: They thank God when they win. Whose fault is it when they lose?

The Bible says to thank God for EVERYTHING. Win or lose. It's kind of hard to understand if you're not a believer.

It's not a lot easier if you are.

My dad is dying a slow, painful death from bone cancer right now. I guess that would fall into the "lose" column, right?


THIS...my dad has prostate cancer and a terminal lung disease...definitely the "lose" column...

*hugs* to you...
 
2009-09-08 07:37:09 AM
farkinawsome: but but they were baptized with a shipment of tainted holy water.

great, now they're gonna get a rash in addition to the holy spirit
 
2009-09-08 07:37:12 AM
There is a "motivaional" seminar coming to our town this week. Terry Bradshaw, Zig Ziglar, Colin Powell. It looks pretty cool. There is a full page ad in the local paper advertising this, and my entire office can go for a total price of $19.

I got tricked into this last year, so I knew to look at the ad pretty close. At the bottom, in about 2 point type, it says-
"This program includes a 15 minute program on the power of the Bible to empower your life. Attendees will be given the opportunity to excuse themselves from this portion of the program"

So basically, they have to disguise their motives to trick people into coming to it.

The actual program last year was pretty good, but several of the "presenters" kept saying things like, "and I was sucessful through the power of God - but they tell me that I'm not supposed to discuss that right now - lets move on."

It is pretty weird. I walked out during the prayer part, and they made it very difficult to do so- you had to navigate rows of about 50-60 people.

My point is, how easy will it be for a Christian employer to send every employee in their company to this thing, under the guise of "training", knowing full well what the real deal is, and hoping that a few get "saved"?
 
2009-09-08 07:39:56 AM
There would have been less uproar had they been taught to wear bomb vests.
 
2009-09-08 07:41:02 AM
It is not ok to pimp religion at school. Make the coach do a tug of war with the bus using only his teeth. See who wins. If his god can assist him to move the bus on flat ground and not have all his teeth ripped out I'll put my popcorn down and golf clap... But I reckon the bus would win.
 
2009-09-08 07:42:19 AM
biffstallion: There would have been less uproar had they been taught to wear bomb vests.

There would have been more uproar had that been a good troll.
 
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