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(Reuters)   You don't need to look over here. We're not preparing to invade Taiwan or anything. Seriously. Stop with the looking over here. Or we'll quit funding the stimulus   (reuters.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, China Sea, China, United States, U.S. Defense Department, urges, fishing vessels, shores, air  
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17383 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Aug 2009 at 4:38 AM (7 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



100 Comments     (+0 »)
 


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2009-08-27 11:11:49 PM  
Maybe the US should accidentally bomb a Chinese embassy somewhere. Or we could just keep the surveillance going.

/ maybe both would work
// yeah, both
 
2009-08-27 11:26:09 PM  
I'm assuming that if we went to war with China we'd no longer need to repay any of the debt that they owned.
 
2009-08-27 11:26:27 PM  
I'm not really an expert on this matter -- but what would the harm be in letting Taiwan become something like what Hong Kong has become? Hong Kong has done very well for itself after being given back to China, and is afforded a large degree of autonomy.

Obviously there's the issue of the military technology we've given them. But besides that... if we could somehow get our stuff back... the Cold War is over, eh? What's the point?
 
2009-08-27 11:37:45 PM  
A war with China? No problem. We'd win that within a week. Hands down. Piece of cake. Easy as pie. Like taking candy from a baby.
 
2009-08-27 11:41:24 PM  

shanrick: A war with China? No problem. We'd win that within a week. Hands down. Piece of cake. Easy as pie. Like taking candy from a baby.


Just like Iraq and Afghanistan?
 
2009-08-27 11:41:36 PM  

elchip: I'm not really an expert on this matter -- but what would the harm be in letting Taiwan become something like what Hong Kong has become? Hong Kong has done very well for itself after being given back to China, and is afforded a large degree of autonomy.

Obviously there's the issue of the military technology we've given them. But besides that... if we could somehow get our stuff back... the Cold War is over, eh? What's the point?


Maybe the Taiwanese with their democratic government should have something to say about it?
 
2009-08-27 11:45:33 PM  

WorldCitizen: Maybe the Taiwanese with their democratic government should have something to say about it?


Other than the fact our military hardware, what would be the harm to our interests in saying to China, "So long as you guarantee Taiwan a system like what you have in Hong Kong, we will no longer intervene in the political/military affairs between the two of you."
 
2009-08-27 11:49:17 PM  

shanrick: A war with China? No problem. We'd win that within a week. Hands down. Piece of cake. Easy as pie. Like taking candy from a baby.


Wouldn't be so easy if they sent repo men to tow away the Seventh Fleet in the middle of the night.
 
2009-08-27 11:50:56 PM  
shanrick: A war with China? ... Piece of cake. Easy as pie.

You think? Just wait until they pull out their secret weapon ... synchronized jumping up and down.
 
2009-08-27 11:58:18 PM  

elchip: WorldCitizen: Maybe the Taiwanese with their democratic government should have something to say about it?

Other than the fact our military hardware, what would be the harm to our interests in saying to China, "So long as you guarantee Taiwan a system like what you have in Hong Kong, we will no longer intervene in the political/military affairs between the two of you."


It's not clear yet that China is going to completely honor Hong Kong autonomy. It seems that they are dragging their feet on democracy in Hong Kong, and they're always doing their best to push the limits of Beijing's control within Hong Kong. If I were Taiwanese, I don't think I would yet trust the totalitarian regime in Beijing to play nice for decades to come and let Taiwan retain true democracy and autonomy.

Totalitarian regime is still totalitarian regime.
 
2009-08-28 12:03:52 AM  

elchip: WorldCitizen: Maybe the Taiwanese with their democratic government should have something to say about it?

Other than the fact our military hardware, what would be the harm to our interests in saying to China, "So long as you guarantee Taiwan a system like what you have in Hong Kong, we will no longer intervene in the political/military affairs between the two of you."


And as far as OUR interests, right now the direction China will take is still not clear. It's not clear yet that China will not become a threat to our interests. I think it is still in our interest that Taiwan be in the US camp for the time being. If they chose to join China under some autonomy agreement, I certainly don't think we should stop them.. However, if China remains totalitarian and Taiwan wants to stay an "independent" democracy (even if we can't say the independent word openly) in our camp, I don't think it's in the US interest to be seen as making an agreement over the heads of a democracy to hand them over to a totalitarian state.
 
2009-08-28 12:15:35 AM  

WorldCitizen: Totalitarian regime is still totalitarian regime.


Though to play devils advocate, China is showing that when you have economic freedom, political freedom becomes secondary. Though of course the best case would be to have both.

Yes, China has serious problems and they are eventually going to have to deal with those. That being said, standards of living in China to even 10 years ago. Yes quite a few have not improved, but quite a few others have. Mostly by just providing a very business friendly environment where industry can provide high paying, relatively speaking of course, jobs.

China has made some really stupid policies, so has the US government. They are at least embracing capitalism while we are abandoning it. Though there are still quite a few state industries in China that should be privatized. many of their coal power plants for example would actually be cheaper to run if they were privatized and modernized. Newer, more efficient, and cleaner boilers. They also have a heavy hand in the steel industry which has a detrimental effect on it and the environment.

It's like watching the special Olympics. Watching two sides and keeping score on the stupid crap each side does.
 
2009-08-28 12:16:45 AM  
we'd be greeted as liberators
 
2009-08-28 12:17:10 AM  

Crosshair: Though to play devils advocate, China is showing that when you have economic freedom, political freedom becomes secondary. Though of course the best case would be to have both.


And Washington has been taking notes.
 
2009-08-28 12:37:21 AM  
elchip: I'm not really an expert on this matter -- but what would the harm be in letting Taiwan become something like what Hong Kong has become? Hong Kong has done very well for itself after being given back to China, and is afforded a large degree of autonomy.

Obviously there's the issue of the military technology we've given them. But besides that... if we could somehow get our stuff back... the Cold War is over, eh? What's the point?


The Republic of China isn't much of a democracy, but they still are. There is no reason to abandon them, and if it was up to me, I'd recognize them as an independent country.
 
2009-08-28 01:17:55 AM  

ftfa:

In June, a Chinese submarine collided with an underground sonar array being towed by the destroyer USS John McCain, near Subic Bay in the Philippines.
ok, so it's been a while since i was in the navy, but i'd never heard of destroyers towing underground sonar arrays before. sounds like a really... unique technology
 
2009-08-28 01:22:43 AM  
GAT_00

The Republic of China isn't much of a democracy, but they still are. There is no reason to abandon them, and if it was up to me, I'd recognize them as an independent country.

Are you practicing lines for the Ms. Teen South Carolina pageant, or was that a serious thought?
 
2009-08-28 01:25:24 AM  
Civil_War2_Time: Are you practicing lines for the Ms. Teen South Carolina pageant, or was that a serious thought?

Serious thought. I don't like China much, or anyone else with that kind of record of human rights violations. What exactly can they do? Cash in our deficit? That takes their economy out too. They won't win attacking Taiwan, and I don't think they'd be willing to play out a MAD scenario.
 
2009-08-28 01:39:33 AM  
Ok, so

elchip: I'm not really an expert on this matter -- but what would the harm be in letting Taiwan become something like what Hong Kong has become? Hong Kong has done very well for itself after being given back to China, and is afforded a large degree of autonomy.

Obviously there's the issue of the military technology we've given them. But besides that... if we could somehow get our stuff back... the Cold War is over, eh? What's the point?


Er, yea. Here's the thing, The Taiwanese government is what is left of a civil war between communist factions and a democratic government. Similar to North and South Korea, but without Taiwan becoming fully recognized as a separate country like South Korea. Similar to North and South Vietnam, but without being fully taken over by the north.

This strange situation is why you hear Taiwan sometimes called "Chinese Taipei". They are called Chinese Taipei by international groups (the Olympics, Little League World Series, United Nations, etc) to appease the Chinese.

There is nothing to "give back". Hong Kong was a British colony until they gave it back to China, now it is an Autonomous Region, more than a state but less than a country; Tibet and Macau are the same.
 
2009-08-28 01:40:47 AM  

shanrick: A war with China? No problem. We'd win that within a week. Hands down. Piece of cake. Easy as pie. Like taking candy from a baby.


Successful troll is successful.
 
2009-08-28 01:49:22 AM  
GAT_00

First, glad to hear that was an honest thought.

Anyhow, I don't think they will (or want to) attack Taiwan. We'd send all kinds of weapons to Japan and Taiwan to ensure they won't de-stabilize the region, and they know that. Financially they are locked into catering to our needs for the next 50 years, lest they don't get a worthwhile ROI which they desperately need to grow and meet their desires to be a supposed 1st world country.
 
2009-08-28 01:56:21 AM  

GAT_00: What exactly can they do?


The Chinese are big fans of the long game. By my reckoning, they're already in a pretty solid position to kaibash us at will. They continue to solidify their position as the planet's manufacturing center, we keep moving paper in a circle and pretending it somehow adds value. If we continue on our current course, the US will further stratify and social unrest will build. At the appropriate time, they engage in some financial dickery while covertly funding ideologues and rabble-rousers. We're busy trying to avert civil war (which the healthcare "debate" has shown we're never more than a stone's throw away from), the Chinese flex their influence around SE Asia.
 
2009-08-28 02:22:59 AM  
I'm just waiting for China's internal issues to bubble over. That is not going to be pretty. Despite appearances and claims to the contrary China has major internal issues that it really isn't dealing with.
 
2009-08-28 04:14:57 AM  
Schnit. China was the first big foreign policy crisis for Bush II as well when one of our spy planes collided w/ a Chinese jet.

The Chinese dismantled the surveillance plane and set it back to us in boxes, and it was reassembled and returned to duty.
 
2009-08-28 04:19:10 AM  

WhyteRaven74: I'm just waiting for China's internal issues to bubble over. That is not going to be pretty. Despite appearances and claims to the contrary China has major internal issues that it really isn't dealing with.


If they collapse and go the way of the Soviets who will make all my cheap plastic schnit that I buy for no reason. I gotta have my battery powered, rotating lollipop machine. Am I supposes to spin my own lollipop like some kind of heathen? Americans have grown accustomed to a certain standard of living and will never go back to eating manual lollipops.
 
2009-08-28 04:40:46 AM  
To be fair, you* keep running into eachother.

*for the Americans
 
2009-08-28 04:49:12 AM  
Oh Jesus. Obama should start sending to troops to Anchorage immediately- I know what's coming, I've seen it...
 
2009-08-28 04:51:53 AM  
Nothing to worry about - The Obama administration will soon send a HallmarkTM card apologising for the US military presence in the South China Sea.
 
2009-08-28 04:53:41 AM  

WhyteRaven74: I'm just waiting for China's internal issues to bubble over. That is not going to be pretty. Despite appearances and claims to the contrary China has major internal issues that it really isn't dealing with.


They're "dealing with it" in the sense that they're trying to grow their way out of it and hope that enough of the problem is abated by internal pressures (death where it finds them, and execution where necessary) and eventually they'll have enough wealth and the world enough technology to solve what remains. It might not be how we would hope they would deal with it, but you can't really say it isn't a plan.
 
2009-08-28 04:54:27 AM  

Occam's Chainsaw: The Chinese are big fans of the long game. By my reckoning, they're already in a pretty solid position to kaibash us at will. They continue to solidify their position as the planet's manufacturing center, we keep moving paper in a circle and pretending it somehow adds value. If we continue on our current course, the US will further stratify and social unrest will build. At the appropriate time, they engage in some financial dickery while covertly funding ideologues and rabble-rousers. We're busy trying to avert civil war (which the healthcare "debate" has shown we're never more than a stone's throw away from), the Chinese flex their influence around SE Asia.


Holy shiat! I didn't know that Tom Clancy was a farker!

To be honest, that's a rather decent scenario, it's logical and plausible, but overall it would rely on too many circumstancial probabilities coming together.

Of course, you could add China's growing "interests" in international matters to the list of international dickery.
Arms shipments to African countries, deploying ships in the International Pirate Season Hunting Party Beer Bash thing happening outside of Somalia. That could easily be the start of something like the Soviet influence during the Cold War, where China tries to build relations with states or interest groups* overseas.

* Militias or rebel movements
 
2009-08-28 04:56:36 AM  

yarnothuntin: Oh Jesus. Obama should start sending to troops to Anchorage immediately- I know what's coming, I've seen it...


Well, you only need to deploy a few T-51b power armors to settle that, and paradrop a guy with a silenced 10mm pistol and a stealth boy. That easily sorts out the entire problem, except for the part where the team rocket soldier keeps firing rockets at the farking soldier that's charging you, taking you both out in the process.
 
2009-08-28 04:58:06 AM  
brainiac-dumdum,

The Chinese dismantled the surveillance plane and set it back to us in boxes, and it was reassembled and returned to duty.


They learned that move from the U.S.

http://www.geocities.com/siafdu/viktor.html
 
2009-08-28 05:00:00 AM  
Screw China. We can make it safer, faster and better than they can. Most of the factories are owned by American/German/European companies anyway. More jobs here, less power there. A win/win situation in my book.

And screw Russia while we're at it.
 
2009-08-28 05:01:27 AM  

brainiac-dumdum: Schnit. China was the first big foreign policy crisis for Bush II as well when one of our spy planes collided w/ a Chinese jet..


How is that our surveillance plane, while flying straight and level, collided with their fighter? I believe it was the Mavericky Chinese fighter pilot who was at fault.
 
2009-08-28 05:04:51 AM  

Bigdogdaddy: Screw China. We can make it safer, faster and better than they can. Most of the factories are owned by American/German/European companies anyway. More jobs here, less power there. A win/win situation in my book.

And screw Russia while we're at it.


Faster, maybe. Better, sure. Cheaper... not a chance. And there are a hell of a lot of companies and consumers that prefer cheaper products over better products.
 
2009-08-28 05:05:31 AM  

Enemabag Jones: brainiac-dumdum,

The Chinese dismantled the surveillance plane and set it back to us in boxes, and it was reassembled and returned to duty.

They learned that move from the U.S.

http://www.geocities.com/siafdu/viktor.html


I know
 
2009-08-28 05:09:04 AM  

elchip: I'm not really an expert on this matter -- but what would the harm be in letting Taiwan become something like what Hong Kong has become? Hong Kong has done very well for itself after being given back to China, and is afforded a large degree of autonomy.

Obviously there's the issue of the military technology we've given them. But besides that... if we could somehow get our stuff back... the Cold War is over, eh? What's the point?


That's what's going to happen eventually. China and Taiwan will slowly drift towards a mutual agreement.
 
2009-08-28 05:09:29 AM  

NotATFer: Bigdogdaddy: Screw China. We can make it safer, faster and better than they can. Most of the factories are owned by American/German/European companies anyway. More jobs here, less power there. A win/win situation in my book.

And screw Russia while we're at it.

Faster, maybe. Better, sure. Cheaper... not a chance. And there are a hell of a lot of companies and consumers that prefer cheaper products over better products.


Then that's because WE'RE stupid and you can't blame our Chinese overlords for that.
 
2009-08-28 05:10:48 AM  
fark China. their own internal array of populist suppression, increased incursions on Indian territory, its eyes on Taiwan, the deal w/ Tibet, its shady involvement with some dubious African (nation)states and otherwise general alignment with places like good ol' friendly places like Cuba & Venezuela - and they complain people are watching them

that country leaves me very jittery for the future
 
2009-08-28 05:14:09 AM  

SonOfSpam: How is that our surveillance plane, while flying straight and level, collided with their fighter? I believe it was the Mavericky Chinese fighter pilot who was at fault.


That's not what Bush said when he wrote a grovelling letter, apologising to the Chinese for having killed one of their brave fighter pilots.
 
2009-08-28 05:14:24 AM  

Bigdogdaddy: And screw Russia while we're at it.


my layperson view is that Russia, atleast under Putin (Medvedev is a just a PR puppet) is primarily focusing on being more a money might than being involved w/ the kind of politics that China's been getting itself into lately
 
2009-08-28 05:16:20 AM  

Cornwell: except for the part where the team rocket soldier keeps firing rockets at the farking soldier that's charging you, taking you both out in the process.


Farking traitors.
 
2009-08-28 05:19:28 AM  

at80eighty: Bigdogdaddy: And screw Russia while we're at it.

my layperson view is that Russia, atleast under Putin (Medvedev is a just a PR puppet) is primarily focusing on being more a money might than being involved w/ the kind of politics that China's been getting itself into lately


I know I don't know all the things that the government knows or perhaps you on international relations (I'm just a lowly maintenance guy), but I do know we shouldn't turn our back on either one of these countries (Russia and China). I mean, if nothing else the huge population of these two sleeping giants ought to make us aware of what could happen.
 
2009-08-28 05:24:29 AM  

Bad_Seed: elchip: I'm not really an expert on this matter -- but what would the harm be in letting Taiwan become something like what Hong Kong has become? Hong Kong has done very well for itself after being given back to China, and is afforded a large degree of autonomy.

Obviously there's the issue of the military technology we've given them. But besides that... if we could somehow get our stuff back... the Cold War is over, eh? What's the point?

That's what's going to happen eventually. China and Taiwan will slowly drift towards a mutual agreement.


Personally, I don't see that happening any time soon. Taiwan's younger generation is increasingly independence-leaning.
 
2009-08-28 05:24:33 AM  
As you may or may not know, and I'm sure most of you do, China has relaxed the 1 child limit thing. So what do you think is going to happen in 18-20 years? Take a wild guess, lol.
 
2009-08-28 05:26:26 AM  
[looking stuff up and getting sidetracked]

Wow...Transnistria has an army of 4,500 guys?
 
2009-08-28 05:27:59 AM  
The false information the Chinese gov puts out works better than we think it does. They're told that we think we're better than they are, and it's a big deal for them to now say that they're actually better than us. Most Chinese are very nationalistic, and they're just growing by leaps and bounds and the economy is still pretty okay, with a few hiccups here and there. To assume that they ever have any intention of some sort of insurrection would be foolish. It won't happen for generations, if ever. They don't know what freedom is, and are plenty happy with their circumstances (as long as they aren't an ethnic minority).
 
2009-08-28 05:58:15 AM  

Cornwell: Holy shiat! I didn't know that Tom Clancy was a farker!


Pfft, for that to be a Tom Clancy scenario, the whole thing would have to be a front for *DUN DUN DUNNNNNN!* the French, who are secretly working to reclaim Vietnam.

Really, it all comes down to timing, speed of response, intended outcome, etc. The US economy was literally days (if not day) from coming apart last October, and that was without someone actively working to subvert it. So just how hard could economic warfare against us possibly be?
 
2009-08-28 06:02:13 AM  
elchip

I'm not really an expert on this matter
'nuff said right there.
-- but what would the harm be in letting Taiwan become something like what Hong Kong has become? Hong Kong has done very well for itself after being given back to China, and is afforded a large degree of autonomy.


There is a very large degree of international law and treaties involved. First, Hong Kong always was China territory, the British only had a lease. Taiwan on the other hand was transferred to Japan, lock, stock, and barrel as they say, with an internationally recognized and binding treaty. After WWII Japan was forced to surrender the ownership of Taiwan by the United Nations. Taiwan was never returned to China and was left as an independent state when the Japanese legal ownership was officially and legally terminated in 1952. China has no legal leg to stand on. Invasion would not be for 'reunification' but an act of aggression against a sovereign nation, who by the way does not want to be communist.

So the two areas are not the same in international law. The whole thing is muddied by Chiang Kaishek's retreat to Taiwan and claiming to speak for all of China. To understand the whole situation would require volumes of material but this is the crux of the matter. And as for Hong Kong, the CCP are already using a heavy hand and violating the accords they had with the residents. From forcing revised books, censorship, and meddling in local elections. Hong Kong is being forced into the Beijing mold and there may yet be an uprising with the expected results before this is all over.
 
2009-08-28 06:42:11 AM  
Bigdogdaddy I'm no expert by any means, just take an interest in this stuff - and I'm 100% with you on the importance of vigilance; just my personal view that in comparison, China seems to be a bigger looming threat in the future than Russia. I could very well be wrong too :)
 
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