tombotia: JJM929RR: Somacandra: JJM929RR: How in the world did your grandparents survive without free healthcare?

They lived and died before Richard Nixon and the Baby Boomers took over. You may also want to read up on the history of Medicare. Its been around a while.

Okay Great great grandparents, Medicare's broke anyway. Who thinks that's not going to happen to a national health care, and when has government ever run anything efficiently anyways?

"UPS and Fedex are just fine, it's the USPS that having problems"~Obama

GOVERNMENT WILL RUIN EVERYTHING!

PRIVATIZE THE FOLLOWING PLEASE!!!

- public schools
- highways
- fire departments
- police services
- drug administrations
- welfare insurance
- disability insurance
- the military
- VA services
- ...

GOVERNMENT RUINS EVERYTHING!!!

And look how well they do all that.

/Like I said, I'm part of the mob

I doubt that "many" Canadians go to Detroit for anything, let alone health care.

You would be surprised.

Pizza Papalis alone makes it worth my time to get my passport... when I get around to actually applying for one.

wmoonfox: CBR ME ASAP: So where's the problem? Isn't that what you want?

It's inefficient. Gripe about government inefficiencies all you want, but a system specifically crafted to deal with this situation would, by design, be more efficient than the buck-passing system we have now.

So would it be efficient like the VA or like SS or like medicare?

CBR ME ASAP: So would it be efficient like the VA or like SS or like medicare?

It would be efficient like the public option.

She says that the major reason that they charge so much for medications for patients is the huge amount of deadbeats that never pay.

B-b-but David Vitter told me it was socialist health care in other countries that artificially drove up American drug costs by negotiating lower rates with the pharmaceuticals! I thought America was subsidizing the world just like in WWII!!!

/the pharmaceuticals could lower US drug costs, and probably still make big profits hand-over-fist
//they just choose not to

tombotia: JJM929RR: Somacandra: JJM929RR: How in the world did your grandparents survive without free healthcare?

They lived and died before Richard Nixon and the Baby Boomers took over. You may also want to read up on the history of Medicare. Its been around a while.

Okay Great great grandparents, Medicare's broke anyway. Who thinks that's not going to happen to a national health care, and when has government ever run anything efficiently anyways?

"UPS and Fedex are just fine, it's the USPS that having problems"~Obama

GOVERNMENT WILL RUIN EVERYTHING!

PRIVATIZE THE FOLLOWING PLEASE!!!

- public schools
- highways
- fire departments
- police services
- drug administrations
- welfare insurance
- disability insurance
- the military
- VA services
- ...

GOVERNMENT RUINS EVERYTHING!!!

I can't tell if you're being serious or sarcastic. Our public schools are lagging behind every other modernized country.

The highways are falling apart and bridges are collapsing and the state and local governments can't afford to fix them.

Fire and police departments are severely underfunded to the point that they are already considering charging for services. The police are increasingly enforcing crimes that pay (traffic violations) while ignoring crimes that don't (robbery).

Drug prices are so out of control we're buying them from Canada

Welfare reform is always a hot topic every year. Welfare in this country is abused like a stripper at a frat party.

Disability is easier to get than a job. You can get disability for being fat or even just having ADD.

Hell, the military invented the term fubar.

VA services in this country are awful and we sohuld be ashamed at how we treat our vets.

I could really go either way on this argument.

tarhammer: I doubt that "many" Canadians go to Detroit for anything, let alone health care.

Taxes are lower, so many Canadians come here for gas and cigarettes.

wmoonfox: CBR ME ASAP: So where's the problem? Isn't that what you want?

It's inefficient. Gripe about government inefficiencies all you want, but a system specifically crafted to deal with this situation would, by design, be more efficient than the buck-passing system we have now.

How about government run auto insurance. I have to have auto insurance by law, so I do. Im sure a lot of people cancel it right after they get their tags. I think we should have a program for the ones that dont want to pay but can and the ones that simply sit on their ass and wait for someone that feels sorry for them to provide it for them instead of planning ahead, getting a job, figuring it out on their own. Wake up America.

How many Americans go to India or Thailand for 'medical tourism' because they can't afford the same medical procedure in the US?

You can get disability for being fat or even just having ADD.

Tell me more...

Our public schools are lagging behind every other modernized country.

...where they also have public schools.

Perhaps the problem isn't so much government in and of itself as it is your government.

Dusk-You-n-Me: CBR ME ASAP: So would it be efficient like the VA or like SS or like medicare?

Yes. It would work.

Right. There's efficient, and there's effective. Health insurance companies are efficient, particularly in their claims-denying process, but they're not very effective if there are 46 million uininsured Americans.

serial_crusher: Staying alive will be considered "elective" if Obama and his Death Panels have their way.

Have you any idea at all how stupid that makes you sound? Please stop, my embarrassment for you is almost at the painful level.

My concern is this: Our profit-motivated health care delivery system, as deeply and obviously flawed as it is, has nevertheless brought an incredible amount of innovation into play over the past few decades. Will any or all of the socialized schemes under discussion continue to motivate these innovations? I suspect the answer is yes, since our socialized defense service tends to keep on innovating new and interesting ways to kill people who dress and/or talk funny, but I'd like some assurance that this will be the case.

My other concern is the adverse effect that patronage jobs tend to have on productivity, but I suspect that the personality types that tend toward careers in health care are probably somewhat resistant to that kind of complacency.

Elvis Christ: And if it wasn't for the US's capitalist driven system which developed MRI technology, you wouldn't have any at all.

MRI was developed and improved by a number of individuals, all of whom were in the public sector, not the private. Oh, and the first MRI scan on a human was done in the UK, not the US.

Can't/won't do a bone marrow transplant in Canada? Bull. Someone is lying again. The article is utterly deceptive twaddlespeak anyhow. Canada is arranging to make use of nearby facilities and in most cases paying for the patent care.

wmoonfox: CBR ME ASAP: So would it be efficient like the VA or like SS or like medicare?

It would be efficient like the public option.

I'm just trying to find a comparable gov't program that is run efficiently. I mean, I know the VA is efficient at shutting it's hospitals down and is notorious for sub-par service. SS is efficient at bleeding it's coffers dry. Medicare is efficient at spending a large portion of it's money on administration, a large portion than the private companies.

Seriously, just looking for a comparable efficient gov't run program.

BILL MOYERS: We obtained a copy of the game plan that was adopted by the industry's trade association, AHIP. And it spells out the industry strategies in gold letters. It says, "Highlight horror stories of government-run systems." What was that about?

WENDELL POTTER: The industry has always tried to make Americans think that government-run systems are the worst thing that could possibly happen to them, that if you even consider that, you're heading down on the slippery slope towards socialism. So they have used scare tactics for years and years and years, to keep that from happening. If there were a broader program like our Medicare program, it could potentially reduce the profits of these big companies. So that is their biggest concern. -- Wendell Potter, former head of Public Relations for CIGNA

OK, so Canadians are coming to the US.... if that means our system is better... the logic would tell us that we should adopt India's healthcare system, because Americans go there. Is that what we should do, adopt the systems of the places people go, because that's clearly the best?

Well, since liberals want Obama and his government cronies (I can use this word now, awesome) to literally run your life from birth to death, why even have any private industry? Seriously, why not have everything run by government? They are more efficient apparently, right? All we need to do is increase taxes by 20-50% or so on everyone, and everything will be free.

Why do it half-assed? No reason to try and succeed when I could just sit around and be lazy and get free stuff. Worked well in the USSR, Cuba, North Korea and other countries, lets do it here.

Stupid libs.

CBR ME ASAP: mechgreg: CBR ME ASAP: pukingtrader: CBR ME ASAP: Why is there a lack of facilities?

The lack of facilities is a free market problem. Health care in Canada is all private, only the insurance is socialized.

The same free market that is forcing every doctor out of Canada.

Actually the idea that there are a ton of Canadian doctors moving out of the country is pretty much false. In 2004 there were 262 practicing doctors that moved out of Canada, hardly a huge number. At the same time 317 Canadian trained doctors who left Canada in the past decided to return. From the few doctors I know most of them move to the US to do their residency then return once they have experience. 262 is hardly any kind of mass exodus.

Source of those numbers (new window)

Great, an article from 2005. Check out the one I posted from 2007.

I would be curious to know why the change from a few hundred in 2004 to thouands in 2007. Plus one thing the new article doesn't touch on is how many move to the US but then come back to Canada. I think from the doctors I know the common thing to do is move to the US after graduation where there are more opportunities and more money to be made, then after you have finished your residency and paid off debts you move back. Either way the 2004 article showed more doctors moving back than leaving.

So let me get this straight. Most of you failed so badly in life you could not get a real job that provides insurance so you want the government to help make up for you lack of success?

Do I have that right?

/payed attention in school
//have good job
///don't have some useless lib arts degree

Thunderpipes: Well, since liberals want Obama and his government cronies (I can use this word now, awesome) to literally run your life from birth to death, why even have any private industry? Seriously, why not have everything run by government? They are more efficient apparently, right? All we need to do is increase taxes by 20-50% or so on everyone, and everything will be free.

Why do it half-assed? No reason to try and succeed when I could just sit around and be lazy and get free stuff. Worked well in the USSR, Cuba, North Korea and other countries, lets do it here.

Stupid libs.

Trolling solves nothing.

I know it's been pointed out, but worth repeating:

FTFA: "I go to the hospital in Windsor and two hours later, I'm done having angioplasty in Detroit," he said. His $38,000 bill was covered by the Ontario health ministry.


He was covered by the Canadian health system. So not sure what submitter's point is, other than "people sometimes travel from one medical facility to another to get treatments." Windsor and Detroit are quite close to each other, geographically and whatnot. It's not like people are being shuttled hundreds of miles from Windsor for health care. Looks like they're going to the closest large city with medical facilities, which is Detroit.

Now, if I were Canadian, I don't know that I'd wanna go to Detroit for anything, much less health care, but the arrangement seems to be working OK.

Cerwin3302: Flab: famousp: Hi, I'm an American and I'm happy with my healthcare. I pay for my insurance, and you know what? When I get sick or injured I get fixed.

Good for you.

Why do I need a government system to care for me?

You don't. That's why you'll be able to keep your private insurance. The government system will only be there to care for those who aren't as lucky as you.

Exactly the biggest point... Who is going to pay for it? I already pay for mine, so should we pay for others as well?

We already pay for others... the point people like me are making about universal coverage is that we'd rather spread the risk and charge those who can pay some portion of their insurance a fair amount, instead of pretending like the uninsured aren't already burdening our system to the point of near collapse. We aren't going to let people die on the doorstep of the hospital, and we aren't going to deny care to a profusely bleeding patient because we don't know whether or not he has insurance... so we might as well just acknowledge that ER care is going to be available to everyone, and to that end, so will some form of socialized medicine... I'd rather streamline the process, divert people away from the ER, limit disease vectoring through early/preventative care, and insure the solvency of hospitals.

OhioStateOutlaw: So let me get this straight. Most of you failed so badly in life you could not get a real job that provides insurance so you want the government to help make up for you lack of success?

Do I have that right?

/payed attention in school
//have good job
///don't have some useless lib arts degree

LOLHIOSTATE

hodaka: You can get disability for being fat or even just having ADD.

Tell me more...

Looks like it has to be ADHD (new window)

//drink a few red bulls before you're interview and you be alright

Thunderpipes: Well, since liberals want Obama and his government cronies (I can use this word now, awesome) to literally run your life from birth to death, why even have any private industry? Seriously, why not have everything run by government? They are more efficient apparently, right? All we need to do is increase taxes by 20-50% or so on everyone, and everything will be free.

Why do it half-assed? No reason to try and succeed when I could just sit around and be lazy and get free stuff. Worked well in the USSR, Cuba, North Korea and other countries, lets do it here.

Stupid libs.

Wow. That wasn't even hyperbole. You're actually trying to paint Obama as some sort of anticorporate communist tyrant.

Do you imagine anyone actually takes you seriously?

mechgreg: CBR ME ASAP: mechgreg: CBR ME ASAP: pukingtrader: CBR ME ASAP: Why is there a lack of facilities?

The lack of facilities is a free market problem. Health care in Canada is all private, only the insurance is socialized.

The same free market that is forcing every doctor out of Canada.

Actually the idea that there are a ton of Canadian doctors moving out of the country is pretty much false. In 2004 there were 262 practicing doctors that moved out of Canada, hardly a huge number. At the same time 317 Canadian trained doctors who left Canada in the past decided to return. From the few doctors I know most of them move to the US to do their residency then return once they have experience. 262 is hardly any kind of mass exodus.

Source of those numbers (new window)

Great, an article from 2005. Check out the one I posted from 2007.

I would be curious to know why the change from a few hundred in 2004 to thouands in 2007. Plus one thing the new article doesn't touch on is how many move to the US but then come back to Canada. I think from the doctors I know the common thing to do is move to the US after graduation where there are more opportunities and more money to be made, then after you have finished your residency and paid off debts you move back. Either way the 2004 article showed more doctors moving back than leaving.

So, just ignore the facts that don't back your position? You should run for office.

CBR ME ASAP: Seriously, just looking for a comparable efficient gov't run program.

Like I said: you can cry about government inefficiencies all day long -- it won't make the points any more relevant. The public option would be as efficient as the public option would be. Either way you slice it, though, as already pointed out, it would by design be more efficient at addressing the existing coverage gaps than the current system, which, by design seeks to ignore said gaps. There's really no plainer way to state it.

theoriginalslash: Now, if I were Canadian, I don't know that I'd wanna go to Detroit for anything, much less health care, but the arrangement seems to be working OK.

There are many Canadians in Windsor who come to Michigan for jobs. Many even can collect Michigan unemployment because they pay into the system.

SlothB77: exactly. what system supports building new, expensive facilities to conduct these procedures? Ours. What system doesn't theirs? Their system only works because they we are their safety net. what happens when we go onto their system? there is no safety net, and their precarious system comes crashing down.

They're not incapable of building more medical infrastructure, it's just not the most cost-effective way when their neighbors have an abundance of underutilized resources. If the US didn't have those resources, Canada would build its own, because then it would be the cheaper option.

Plus I'm pretty sure Obama's plan doesn't involve burning our infrastructure.

SlothB77: bingethinker: Instead of building expensive new facilities, they pay for you to go to a U.S. hospital. It's cheaper, in the short run at least.

exactly. what system supports building new, expensive facilities to conduct these procedures? Ours. What system doesn't theirs? Their system only works because they we are their safety net. what happens when we go onto their system? there is no safety net, and their precarious system comes crashing down.

Oh, we'll build'em when the long term economics make sense. They don't right now, though. durrrr

America's health care system is so good many Americans have to go to Europe for medical procedures.

Which they do.

firefly212: Cerwin3302: Flab: famousp: Hi, I'm an American and I'm happy with my healthcare. I pay for my insurance, and you know what? When I get sick or injured I get fixed.

Good for you.

Why do I need a government system to care for me?

You don't. That's why you'll be able to keep your private insurance. The government system will only be there to care for those who aren't as lucky as you.

Exactly the biggest point... Who is going to pay for it? I already pay for mine, so should we pay for others as well?

We already pay for others... the point people like me are making about universal coverage is that we'd rather spread the risk and charge those who can pay some portion of their insurance a fair amount, instead of pretending like the uninsured aren't already burdening our system to the point of near collapse. We aren't going to let people die on the doorstep of the hospital, and we aren't going to deny care to a profusely bleeding patient because we don't know whether or not he has insurance... so we might as well just acknowledge that ER care is going to be available to everyone, and to that end, so will some form of socialized medicine... I'd rather streamline the process, divert people away from the ER, limit disease vectoring through early/preventative care, and insure the solvency of hospitals.

but socialism!

I'm a bit curious about those people who prefer alternative medical treatment and how government healthcare will deal with them (or not). I like my drugs, but I do like the option of seeing a chiropractor before I jump into back surgery.. yeah, a chiropractor is no longer considered that "alternative", but what about acupuncturists or herbalists?

SlothB77: jsobota: So where will Canadians go for treatment after we have the same system they have?

exactly.

They also like the fact that the US doesn't have socialized health care since it's something they DO have. Canadian pride and nationalism has more to do with the fact that they AREN'T the US than anything they do. If the US gets some kind of public plan, that would be pretty major blow to their patriotism. Then they'd just go back to being America Jr.

Thunderpipes: why even have any private industry? Seriously, why not have everything run by government?

I've seen the light! Cut-throat capitalism is the answer! We need to roll back regulations on utilities, quick! Take the reigns off of the financial system so that it can run fast and hard! Hell, let's go back to the gold standard and let supply/demand regulate everything!

1929 called -- it says you can keep your Great Depression.

jsobota: So where will Canadians go for treatment after we have the same system they have?

India... where Americans Already go for discount medicine and surgery.

sendtodave: OhioStateOutlaw: So let me get this straight. Most of you failed so badly in life you could not get a real job that provides insurance so you want the government to help make up for you lack of success?

Do I have that right?

/payed attention in school
//have good job
///don't have some useless lib arts degree

LOLHIOSTATE

LOL @ the same Ohio State that is ranked #18 in the latest U.S. News and World Report ranking of the top public institutions?

Farking hilarious indeed.

Sorry my mommy and daddy didn't pay everything for me so I could go to some ivy league school and spend my time traveling the country protesting and fighting "corporate greed."

Elvis Christ: SlothB77: jsobota: So where will Canadians go for treatment after we have the same system they have?

exactly.

They also like the fact that the US doesn't have socialized health care since it's something they DO have. Canadian pride and nationalism has more to do with the fact that they AREN'T the US than anything they do. If the US gets some kind of public plan, that would be pretty major blow to their patriotism. Then they'd just go back to being America Jr.

uh huh. That's pretty weak, man.

santadog: Hi! I own my own business which is so new, I am not turning a profit yet. I pay my self when I can to make sure the business will eventually succeed. This is my 4th season in this business.

I can't afford insurance. I bust my butt 7 days a week, 11 hours a day, and I can't afford it. If something major happens to me, not only will I lose my business, but I could become homeless very quickly. Even if I were to get sick, and have to keep business closed for a few days, I'm screwed.

If EVERYONE pays just a little more in taxes, EVERYONE could have health care.

Just remember, not everyone needing this health care bill to pass isn't poor, lazy, etc...

Some of us are small business owners who are trying to help get this country back on it's feet.

Why do you hate America, whiner?

OhioStateOutlaw: sendtodave: OhioStateOutlaw: So let me get this straight. Most of you failed so badly in life you could not get a real job that provides insurance so you want the government to help make up for you lack of success?

Do I have that right?

/payed attention in school
//have good job
///don't have some useless lib arts degree

LOLHIOSTATE

LOL @ the same Ohio State that is ranked #18 in the latest U.S. News and World Report ranking of the top public institutions?

Farking hilarious indeed.

Sorry my mommy and daddy didn't pay everything for me so I could go to some ivy league school and spend my time traveling the country protesting and fighting "corporate greed."

Do you find it hard to talk about how valuable of a worker you are and how great of a work ethic you have when you're on fark?

CBR ME ASAP: I've told you my real position. Apparently twice. Do you have any objection to it or do you just like to argue to pass the time? For reference, it's about 10 posts up.

That's amusing. You avoid addressing the similarity between your arguments from yesterday and the supposed sarcasm you're unwiling to defend today (recap for those just tuning in: "We're number two! We're number two! Oh, that's the theoretical upper bound assuming 100% of accidental deaths are D.O.A's? Well, we're number two!").

Then you boldly ask if I have any objections to your 'argument' as though every claim you've made in this thread hasn't already been dealt with.

There are plenty of people waiting for you to defend your assertions without you trying to open up another front in your personal crusade against logic.

Maybe you should deal with them first, assuming you're not "tired of arguing".

santadog: Hi! I own my own business which is so new, I am not turning a profit yet. I pay my self when I can to make sure the business will eventually succeed. This is my 4th season in this business.

I can't afford insurance. I bust my butt 7 days a week, 11 hours a day, and I can't afford it. If something major happens to me, not only will I lose my business, but I could become homeless very quickly. Even if I were to get sick, and have to keep business closed for a few days, I'm screwed.

If EVERYONE pays just a little more in taxes, EVERYONE could have health care.

Just remember, not everyone needing this health care bill to pass isn't poor, lazy, etc...

Some of us are small business owners who are trying to help get this country back on it's feet.

You know if you didn't have to pay so much in b.s. taxes you could buy your own insurance