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(Yahoo)   Birthplace of Vespasian found, ending 2000 year debate over whether he was a Roman citizen or was in fact born in Kenya   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 89
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9302 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Aug 2009 at 10:04 AM (5 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
 
2009-08-09 09:50:36 AM  
All I want to know is this: why won't Vespasian release his long-scroll birth parchment?
 
2009-08-09 09:53:35 AM  
jake_lex: All I want to know is this: why won't Vespasian release his long-scroll birth parchment?

Silly, gods don't have birth parchments.
 
2009-08-09 10:07:53 AM  
A+
 
2009-08-09 10:09:46 AM  
A+++++++++ WOULD LOL AGAIN
 
2009-08-09 10:10:03 AM  
Great headline, subby.
 
2009-08-09 10:12:08 AM  
It's a known fact that he was a secret Jew.

/I have proof!
//Which I will release as soon as I make it
 
2009-08-09 10:12:19 AM  
Vulpes volpes Novus will no doubt ignore this.
 
2009-08-09 10:15:10 AM  
I come not to praise Vespasian but to Barry him.
 
2009-08-09 10:15:39 AM  
After being acclaimed emperor by his troops in A.D. 69 and eliminating his rivals, Vespasian found Rome facing a deep economic crisis and still recovering from the fire that consumed it under Nero.

Using riches plundered from Jerusalem and proceeds from increased taxes, he launched a major public works program and started building the Colosseum - the most ambitious and best-preserved of his projects.


One could draw parallels.
 
2009-08-09 10:16:30 AM  
jake_lex: All I want to know is this: why won't Vespasian release his long-scroll birth parchment?

I expect one in marble, why prolong the controversy?
 
2009-08-09 10:18:47 AM  
This birth tablet is clearly a forgery. Look they used the character V for U.

It just got started and already I nub this thread.
 
2009-08-09 10:23:15 AM  
Vespasian invented the pay toilet.
 
2009-08-09 10:23:18 AM  
"...the Flavians"

sportsillustrated.cnn.com
 
2009-08-09 10:25:10 AM  
It's a shop. I can tell by the parchment and seeing a few myths in my time.
 
2009-08-09 10:25:30 AM  
FlameDuck: jake_lex: All I want to know is this: why won't Vespasian release his long-scroll birth parchment?

I expect one in marble, why prolong the controversy?


I won't except any of them, rolling papyrus and marble can easily be forged. I won't except that Vespasian is a Romans citizen until someone comes forwards that was actually at his birth on Roman soil.
 
2009-08-09 10:26:47 AM  
The far-Etruscan media won't be moolified.
 
2009-08-09 10:28:56 AM  
jake_lex: All I want to know is this: why won't Vespasian release his long-scroll birth parchment?

They did but the birth date was in Arabic numerals.

/also, for some strange reason, Times New Roman font
 
2009-08-09 10:32:58 AM  
I heard he was a secret Mithra.
 
2009-08-09 10:35:24 AM  
My Google-fu is far too weak to find the Graham Chapman character with the long teeth who pronounced it "Vefpavian".
 
2009-08-09 10:36:24 AM  
shiat's fake. Why won't you tell us Vespasian?
 
2009-08-09 10:38:34 AM  
Pants full of macaroni!!: My Google-fu is far too weak to find the Graham Chapman character with the long teeth who pronounced it "Vefpavian".

Bring in the next DEAF-END-ANT!!!

/Chapman got all the good roles. I wonder who he had to sleep with
 
2009-08-09 10:38:44 AM  
What a vespasienne might look like:

wcpublics.chez.com
 
2009-08-09 10:39:05 AM  
Cosmic_Music: After being acclaimed emperor by his troops in A.D. 69 and eliminating his rivals, Vespasian found Rome facing a deep economic crisis and still recovering from the fire that consumed it under Nero.

Using riches plundered from Jerusalem and proceeds from increased taxes, he launched a major public works program and started building the Colosseum - the most ambitious and best-preserved of his projects.

One could draw parallels.


Don't say that, the next thing that we'll see on FoxNews now is "Obama plans on invading Israel", and 45-50% of Americans will believe this to be true.
 
2009-08-09 10:42:12 AM  
Archie Goodwin: Vulpes volpes Novus will no doubt ignore this.

I bet the plebs at Liber Republicus are going absolutely apeshiat over this
 
2009-08-09 10:43:09 AM  
Hopefully I can contribute something as interesting during my stay at the BSR...
 
2009-08-09 10:44:07 AM  
img4.imageshack.us


What the hell is this guy's problem?
 
2009-08-09 10:49:17 AM  
Ass Exploder: Vespasian invented the pay toilet.

I so read that as "gay toilet"...

I was like "No that's Larry Craig"

/too early for fark
 
2009-08-09 10:49:40 AM  
img171.imageshack.us


Here's my Vespa, but I don't consider my self Vespasian. I consider myself a scooterist.

/shameful plug of my scooter shop (new window)
 
2009-08-09 10:52:22 AM  
Reprehendenti filio Tito, quod etiam urinae uectigal commentus esset, pecuniam ex prima pensione admouit ad nares, sciscitans num odore offenderetur; et illo negante: 'atquin,' inquit, 'e lotio est.'

When his son Titus blamed him for even laying a tax upon urine, he applied to his nose a piece of the money he received in the first instalment, and asked him, " if it stunk?" And he replying no, "And yet," said he, it is derived from urine."

Suetonius, Divus Vespasianus, 23, 3.
 
2009-08-09 10:57:49 AM  
God Is My Co-Pirate: jake_lex: All I want to know is this: why won't Vespasian release his long-scroll birth parchment?

Silly, gods don't have birth parchments.


-1. Vespasian was a Roman emperor, not a god. But thanks for playing.
 
2009-08-09 10:58:31 AM  
NewportBarGuy: What the hell is this guy's problem?

Statura fuit quadrata, compactis firmisque membris, vultu veluti nitentis; de quo quidam urbanorum non infacete, siquidem petenti, ut et in se aliquid diceret: 'dicam,' inquit, 'cum ventrem exonerare desieris.'

He was broad-set, strong-limbed, and his features gave the idea of a man in the act of straining himself. In consequence, one of the city wits, upon the emperor's desiring him "to say something droll respecting himself," facetiously answered, "I will, when you have done relieving your bowels."

Suetonius, Divus Vespasianus, 20, 1.
 
2009-08-09 10:59:48 AM  
Everyone know that Vespasian was a druish princess.
 
2009-08-09 11:01:27 AM  
Aulus: NewportBarGuy: What the hell is this guy's problem?

Statura fuit quadrata, compactis firmisque membris, vultu veluti nitentis; de quo quidam urbanorum non infacete, siquidem petenti, ut et in se aliquid diceret: 'dicam,' inquit, 'cum ventrem exonerare desieris.'

He was broad-set, strong-limbed, and his features gave the idea of a man in the act of straining himself. In consequence, one of the city wits, upon the emperor's desiring him "to say something droll respecting himself," facetiously answered, "I will, when you have done relieving your bowels."

Suetonius, Divus Vespasianus, 20, 1.


Gross fact of the day: In Roman times human urine was a highly prized commodity used for fixing dye to cloth. The urine of the poor was more highly prized than that of the rich as it often was more concentrated and less polluted with alcohol
 
2009-08-09 11:04:03 AM  
"Vespasian [...] brought stability to the empire following turmoil under the extravagant Emperor Nero [...] Vespasian found Rome facing a deep economic crisis and still recovering from the fire that consumed it under Nero."

Do tell...
 
2009-08-09 11:13:44 AM  
Excellent headline. Made me chuckle.
 
2009-08-09 11:16:15 AM  
Magorn: Gross fact of the day: In Roman times until recently human urine was a highly prized commodity used for fixing dye to cloth.

FIFY.

Haber-Bosch process ammonia for the win.
 
2009-08-09 11:20:22 AM  
Aulus: Statura fuit quadrata, compactis firmisque membris, vultu veluti nitentis; de quo quidam urbanorum non infacete, siquidem petenti, ut et in se aliquid diceret: 'dicam,' inquit, 'cum ventrem exonerare desieris.'

He was broad-set, strong-limbed, and his features gave the idea of a man in the act of straining himself. In consequence, one of the city wits, upon the emperor's desiring him "to say something droll respecting himself," facetiously answered, "I will, when you have done relieving your bowels."

Suetonius, Divus Vespasianus, 20, 1.


Those Wine Baggers are immortal. Here is a mural from their protest of VespasianCare:

img16.imageshack.us


Primum non nocere, my ass!
 
2009-08-09 11:24:06 AM  
Pants full of macaroni!!: My Google-fu is far too weak to find the Graham Chapman character with the long teeth who pronounced it "Vefpavian".

The link, she is hot no?

tbn0.google.com
 
2009-08-09 11:24:54 AM  
TheShavingofOccam123: /Chapman got all the good roles. I wonder who he had to sleep with

From what I've heard, just about everyone.
 
2009-08-09 11:25:30 AM  
ukexpat: -1. Vespasian was a Roman emperor, not a god. But thanks for playing.


I believe most of the Emperors were deified after death. On his deathbed, Tiberius (IIRC) reportedly said, "I think I am about to become divine."
 
2009-08-09 11:27:01 AM  
santadog: Here's my Vespa, but I don't consider my self Vespasian. I consider myself a scooterist.

/shameful plug of my scooter shop (new window)


I was going try to do something with Lambrettasian but I didn't know if anybody would get it. I should have known. This is Fark.


/scoot on
 
2009-08-09 11:30:38 AM  
KENYANES EUNT DOMUS!
 
2009-08-09 11:30:49 AM  
ukexpat: God Is My Co-Pirate: jake_lex: All I want to know is this: why won't Vespasian release his long-scroll birth parchment?

Silly, gods don't have birth parchments.

-1. Vespasian was a Roman emperor, not a god. But thanks for playing.


Vespasian was deified shortly after his death. This was done with many emperors, and stuck for a some of them. Since he was the best emperor since Augustus, it made sense for the state to do so. Gaius Julius Caesar (not an emperor), Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus, and Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus were all deified before Titus Flavius Vespasianus was.

Read Seutonius' Twelve Caesars some time, it's a blast and very informative.

/Even Plutarch couldn't make head or tails out of Roman names, btw.
 
2009-08-09 11:33:05 AM  
Wenchmaster: ukexpat: -1. Vespasian was a Roman emperor, not a god. But thanks for playing.


I believe most of the Emperors were deified after death. On his deathbed, Tiberius (IIRC) reportedly said, "I think I am about to become divine."


But he didn't, or it didn't stick (I can't remember which). Some deified emperors were removed from the god list once the political climate changed.
 
2009-08-09 11:35:41 AM  
ukexpat: God Is My Co-Pirate: jake_lex: All I want to know is this: why won't Vespasian release his long-scroll birth parchment?

Silly, gods don't have birth parchments.

-1. Vespasian was a Roman emperor, not a god. But thanks for playing.


Tell it to Vespasiabots
 
2009-08-09 11:44:16 AM  
When I submitted this headline, I did not include the phrase 'or in fact was born in Kenya.' The mods added that. I'm not sure if the addition was for clarity or for grammar. I thought referencing Kenya was a bit heavy-handed. But this is Fark, where subtlety is hunted down, cornered, and beaten with sticks. If the mods were concerned about the usage of 'whether' as opposed to 'whether or not,' they should know that 'whether' may be used in a manner similar to 'if,' and does not require an 'or' clause. Link (new window)
fiercepika.files.wordpress.com
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against and English major when grammar is on the line.
 
2009-08-09 11:47:16 AM  
Found it!
img11.imageshack.us
 
2009-08-09 11:53:07 AM  
Maturin: You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against and English major when grammar is on the line.

grammar nazis, I hate those guys

tbn1.google.com
 
2009-08-09 11:54:49 AM  
scrupox

Beautiful
 
2009-08-09 11:55:58 AM  
Well at least he wasn't a draft dodger.
 
2009-08-09 11:56:46 AM  
The real controversy was that the man was actually LBJ.

If you don't believe me google image search him.

/too lazy to do so myself.
// The real problem isn't the birth certficate; it's LBJ's death certificate.
/// The man is immortal.
//// coincidence that he was "Master of the Senate" and originally Roman?
// What are the archeologists hiding from us?
// I could go on forever.
 
2009-08-09 11:59:17 AM  
luidprand: Wenchmaster: ukexpat: -1. Vespasian was a Roman emperor, not a god. But thanks for playing.


I believe most of the Emperors were deified after death. On his deathbed, Tiberius (IIRC) reportedly said, "I think I am about to become divine."

But he didn't, or it didn't stick (I can't remember which). Some deified emperors were removed from the god list once the political climate changed.


Are you thinking of Domitian, his son, who was damnatio memoriae?
 
2009-08-09 12:08:47 PM  
Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: Ass Exploder: Vespasian invented the pay toilet.

I so read that as "gay toilet"...

I was like "No that's Larry Craig BARNEY FAGG"

/too early for fark
 
2009-08-09 12:15:09 PM  
God Is My Co-Pirate: luidprand: Wenchmaster: ukexpat: -1. Vespasian was a Roman emperor, not a god. But thanks for playing.


I believe most of the Emperors were deified after death. On his deathbed, Tiberius (IIRC) reportedly said, "I think I am about to become divine."

But he didn't, or it didn't stick (I can't remember which). Some deified emperors were removed from the god list once the political climate changed.

Are you thinking of Domitian, his son, who was damnatio memoriae?


No, although he was also. A couple of the emperors had that happen to them, as well as Livia Drusilla (Augustus' wife, who was deified, undeified, and then deified again). Tiberius was never declared a god.

/I contend that Tiberius' treatment under Livia, especially wrt his chosen wife, Vipsania Agrippina, was what pushed him over the edge.
 
2009-08-09 12:19:17 PM  
loonatic112358: Maturin: You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against and English major when grammar is on the line.

grammar nazis, I hate those guys



English Major ??!!!

/I don't think he's even a Captain.
 
2009-08-09 12:21:54 PM  
Maturin:

You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against and English major when grammar is on the line.


Do tell... :P
 
2009-08-09 12:23:25 PM  
Damn! Beaten to the punch...
 
2009-08-09 12:33:59 PM  
English Major ??!!!

/I don't think he's even a Captain.


I didn't say I could type.
 
2009-08-09 12:34:44 PM  
Great headline, great Weeners. Gotta love Fark.
 
2009-08-09 12:36:34 PM  
BBRModitha: Everyone know that Vespasian was a druish princess.

Vespasian was an extra-terrestrial.
 
2009-08-09 12:47:07 PM  
luidprand: Even Plutarch couldn't make head or tails out of Roman names, btw.

Well, he was only just some jumped up Greekling, after all...
 
2009-08-09 12:50:02 PM  
This thread is XII kinds of awesome.

/good jorb, guys,
//and golf clap for subby
 
2009-08-09 01:01:13 PM  
i195.photobucket.com
 
2009-08-09 01:07:27 PM  
Sure is lots of Vespasian hating whaaarrrgaarrble in this thread. He was lots better than Nero.
 
2009-08-09 01:19:54 PM  
Cosmic_Music:
After being acclaimed emperor by his troops in A.D. 69 and eliminating his rivals, Vespasian found Rome facing a deep economic crisis and still recovering from the fire that consumed it under Nero.

Using riches plundered from Jerusalem and proceeds from increased taxes, he launched a major public works program and started building the Colosseum - the most ambitious and best-preserved of his projects.

One could draw parallels.


You do know Vespasian single handily saved the Empire for centuries and rebuilt it from a crumbling mess into the most powerful superpower of the next thousand years? That he was a genius of a Governor who built contacts around the world and was generally beloved by the people for bring stability after the trouble with Nero and the Year of the Four Emperors and considered perhaps the best world leaders of all time?

So what parallels are you exactly drawing on here? That Obama is going to save the US for the next thousand years by building a giants sports arena?
 
2009-08-09 01:45:39 PM  
limeyfellow: So what parallels are you exactly drawing on here? That Obama is going to save the US for the next thousand years by building a giants sports arena?

No, just a basketball court at White House
/and painting it black
 
2009-08-09 01:59:20 PM  
Cosmic_Music: After being acclaimed emperor by his troops in A.D. 69 and eliminating his rivals, Vespasian found Rome facing a deep economic crisis and still recovering from the fire that consumed it under Nero.

Using riches plundered from Jerusalem and proceeds from increased taxes, he launched a major public works program and started building the Colosseum - the most ambitious and best-preserved of his projects.

One could draw parallels.


More Bread! More Circus!
 
2009-08-09 02:33:16 PM  
santadog: shameful plug of my scooter shop (new window)

Adds item to vacation list.
 
2009-08-09 02:34:28 PM  
limeyfellow: most powerful superpower of the next thousand years

wanna check that thousand ?
and maybe oh I dunno, look outside europe during that period ?
 
2009-08-09 03:04:45 PM  
This thread is exactly what I expected it to be.

Bravo fark. lol
 
2009-08-09 03:08:30 PM  
Coarelli will claim anything to get into the news. There's no evidence that it has anything to do with Vespasian other than the fact that it was found in his home town.

Makes at least for a funny thread!
 
2009-08-09 03:36:08 PM  
Ah, anyone who keeps on claiming that Vespasian was born in Kenya is a real Titus.
 
2009-08-09 03:48:01 PM  
Cosmic_Music: After being acclaimed emperor by his troops in A.D. 69 and eliminating his rivals, Vespasian found Rome facing a deep economic crisis and still recovering from the fire that consumed it under Nero.

Using riches plundered from Jerusalem and proceeds from increased taxes, he launched a major public works program and started building the Colosseum - the most ambitious and best-preserved of his projects.

One could draw parallels.


Wish they'd get it over with and bring me some to the death fights with 'convicted prisoners' already
 
2009-08-09 04:07:15 PM  
Too obscure for Fark, apparently, but the Brit author Lindsey Davis has written 17+ historical fiction novels covering the period of Vespasian's reign. The protagonist in the series is a gumshoe styled detective named Falco. It's the only book series I've ever liked, and the author includes different segments of the Roman existence in each book -- from the first about the mines in Britain to acquiring animals from Africa for the games. The reader doesn't see too much of Vespasian himself, but other fictional characters in his employ. The author does a good job extrapolating scenarios from historical facts -- but it IS all fiction. Metered taxicabs and that tidbit about taxing urine are woven into the stories.
 
2009-08-09 04:16:49 PM  
Paris1127: Ah, anyone who keeps on claiming that Vespasian was born in Kenya is a real Titus.

AKA Bigus Dickus Headosius
/my Latin sucks
//giggity
 
2009-08-09 04:23:13 PM  
img4.imageshack.us2.media.tumblr.com

Separated at birth?
 
2009-08-09 04:27:57 PM  
GaryPDX: More Bread! More Circus!

Circus? What's that?
It's party under big tent, but that's not important right now

No bread, but plenty of clowns
2.bp.blogspot.com
www.mikemalloy.com
blog.nj.com
www.tarstarkas.net
 
2009-08-09 04:29:16 PM  
SVenus:

I've read one of the "Falco" novels by Davis and enjoyed it. Nothing to too obscure on Fark.

//Fark: diem perdidi//
 
2009-08-09 04:41:12 PM  
SVenus: Too obscure for Fark, apparently, but the Brit author Lindsey Davis has written 17+ historical fiction novels covering the period of Vespasian's reign. The protagonist in the series is a gumshoe styled detective named Falco. It's the only book series I've ever liked, and the author includes different segments of the Roman existence in each book -- from the first about the mines in Britain to acquiring animals from Africa for the games. The reader doesn't see too much of Vespasian himself, but other fictional characters in his employ. The author does a good job extrapolating scenarios from historical facts -- but it IS all fiction. Metered taxicabs and that tidbit about taxing urine are woven into the stories.

I love Marcus Didius !
 
2009-08-09 05:40:14 PM  
Slartibartfaster:
limeyfellow: most powerful superpower of the next thousand years

wanna check that thousand ?
and maybe oh I dunno, look outside europe during that period ?


The only rival to the size was the Han Empire in China. The rest predate the Roman Empire or occurred after the 1000 year limit. The Hapthalite Khanate and Hunic Empires were both considerably smaller in size and especially in manpower and technological advances over their rival.

So apart from the Han dynasty, nothing really compared and the Roman's at their height at the same time had a larger population, if not a big population, due to natural boundaries.
 
2009-08-09 07:07:39 PM  
ukexpat: God Is My Co-Pirate: jake_lex: All I want to know is this: why won't Vespasian release his long-scroll birth parchment?

Silly, gods don't have birth parchments.

-1. Vespasian was a Roman emperor, not a god. But thanks for playing.


biatch, the title of the chapter in Suetonius' Lives of the Caesars is title "The Deified Vespasian"

He was, as they say, "enrolled among the gods".
 
2009-08-09 08:01:52 PM  
We require more Vespasian Gas?

tvtropes.org
 
2009-08-09 09:38:01 PM  
luidprand: God Is

No, although he was also. A couple of the emperors had that happen to them, as well as Livia Drusilla (Augustus' wife, who was deified, undeified, and then deified again). Tiberius was never declared a god.

/I contend that Tiberius' treatment under Livia, especially wrt his chosen wife, Vipsania Agrippina, was what pushed him over the edge.


No Roman emperor/empress had their deification revoked. It was also Vespasian who said that he thought he was becoming a god.
 
2009-08-10 02:02:07 AM  
dennysgod: FlameDuck: jake_lex: All I want to know is this: why won't Vespasian release his long-scroll birth parchment?

I expect one in marble, why prolong the controversy?

I won't except any of them, rolling papyrus and marble can easily be forged. I won't except that Vespasian is a Romans citizen until someone comes forwards that was actually at his birth on Roman soil.


Beautiful. Love the misspellings. Gives it a sense of authenticity.
 
2009-08-10 07:47:01 AM  
Questioning the citizenship of a born patrician in ancient Rome would have you have your throat slit by some henchman before the day was out, I'm sure.
 
2009-08-10 12:11:44 PM  
d.yimg.com

Might not be such a hot idea to dig all the dirt out from under a tree and cutting the roots off (in other words, its anchors).
 
2009-08-10 12:37:01 PM  
Lucian: Coarelli will claim anything to get into the news. There's no evidence that it has anything to do with Vespasian other than the fact that it was found in his home town.

Makes at least for a funny thread!


I'm late to the thread, but you are correct. The villa dates to roughly the correct period and it's big, therefore it must have belonged to someone wealthy. Nothing else suggests it has any connection with Vespasian. Mary Beard comments here (new window).

luidprand: God Is My Co-Pirate: luidprand: Wenchmaster: ukexpat: -1. Vespasian was a Roman emperor, not a god. But thanks for playing.

I believe most of the Emperors were deified after death. On his deathbed, Tiberius (IIRC) reportedly said, "I think I am about to become divine."

But he didn't, or it didn't stick (I can't remember which). Some deified emperors were removed from the god list once the political climate changed.

Are you thinking of Domitian, his son, who was damnatio memoriae?

No, although he was also. A couple of the emperors had that happen to them


Most of the Roman emperors were deified after their death.

Julius Caesar was the first (not an emperor, but...); it was established by Augustus who was looking to further cement his grip on the empire and creating an Imperial cult where the emperors were worshipped after their death was a good political move. The Romans didn't care; they were very tolerant of foreign religions and absorbed foreign deities into their pantheon with ease.

Tangent: Before anyone brings it up, the rejection and prohibition of Christianity was a special case for a variety of complex reasons, such as the 'eating of Christ's flesh', which was seen as cannibalism or acceptance thereof. But one of the sticking points was definitely the Imperial cult as Christians found it idolatrous and to refuse was treasonous.

Not only were empresses often deified in addition to the emperors (Livia is one, Faustina another), but Hadrian even deified a young boy, Antinous, who is suggested to have been his lover. Hadrian deified him, founded a cult of worship to him and set a city (Antinopolis) to serve as the focus of this worship near the place on the Nile where Antinous drowned.

I'm stopping now, because I suspect this thread is very dead and that no one cares but me. But to summarize: NOT Vespasian's villa, Romans thought Christians were cannibals and emperors' gay lovers could be deified.
 
2009-08-10 05:46:29 PM  
BBRModitha: Everyone know that Vespasian was a druish princess.

Funny, she doesn't look druish...
 
2009-08-10 06:24:19 PM  
Well played sir, Well played.
 
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