If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Salon)   Five right-wing myths about healthcare reform   (salon.com) divider line 451
    More: Interesting  
•       •       •

6359 clicks; posted to Politics » on 06 Aug 2009 at 4:45 PM (5 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



451 Comments   (+0 »)
   

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | » | Last | Show all
 
2009-08-06 06:31:12 PM
museisluse

You're missing the point here - the point being that this is an extremely preliminary draft, and there are portions that can and will be debated (a lot) and tinkered with. A before-the-fall deadline was impracticable, but on the other hand it was essential that Obama push this forcefully in order to circumvent the effects of the inevitable push back from the familiar players.

But the strategy of many GOP members and insurance lobbyists has been to essentially try to shut down any kind of reform. Even though anyone with half a wit can look at the numbers and see that the way we're currently paying for health care will, if left unchecked, literally destroy the economy.

It astounds me to hear people make these arguments and comments that there must be some sort of nefarious subplot to all this.
 
2009-08-06 06:33:16 PM
The Bruce Dickinson: skullkrusher: Please don't assume that people are a "CON" or a racist" for disagreeing with a poorly conceived plan and we won't assume you're an unemployable drug addict looking for a free handout when you support the plan.

So you are a progressive liberal then?

Drug addict...maybe.

Unemployable...hardly!

I'll more than likely be forking out more money for this than you sir!



yeah I've seen you say that a few times today.
A) dubious
B) what gym do you belong to
 
2009-08-06 06:33:26 PM
Call out the whole damned media to publish BS. The American people know a clusterfark when they see one.

Man, let it go Dems. Your dreams of socialism are too wet!
 
2009-08-06 06:34:07 PM
bulldg4life: skullkrusher: holy shiat... Take a look at the criteria for those rankings.

It's a World Health Organization conspiracy!


it doesn't have to be a conspiracy to be a shiatty ranking system... a system the WHO no longer compiles and has not in 10 years because of the difficulty in creating it
 
2009-08-06 06:34:41 PM
skullkrusher: In hospital medical errors = bad ER quality. Nice...

Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but most people go to the hospital when it IS an emergency. That's why we have hospitals...

Losing 195K per year is nothing to be proud of son!

Refusing treatment to the uninsured is also nothing to be proud of.
 
2009-08-06 06:35:02 PM
skullkrusher: no, the free market is broken due to price collusion. DoJ should use its anti-trust powers to break it up. Allowing it to operate again...

Break what up? The insurance companies?

You're becoming less coherent with every post.
 
2009-08-06 06:35:38 PM
skullkrusher: it doesn't have to be a conspiracy to be a shiatty ranking system... a system the WHO no longer compiles and has not in 10 years because of the difficulty in creating it

Being difficult to do is not the same as it being bad.

If it were that difficult that they are unable to do it, then that would imply they spend a lot of time trying to get it right.
 
2009-08-06 06:36:37 PM
skullkrusher: yeah I've seen you say that a few times today.
A) dubious
B) what gym do you belong to


My drug habit does not allow me time to work out.
 
2009-08-06 06:37:16 PM
skullkrusher: no, the free market is broken due to price collusion. DoJ should use its anti-trust powers to break it up. Allowing it to operate again...

No the free market fails in healthcare because of our human desire to value life beyond any calculable monetary value.

You can't possibly think we can just use a commodity model for dealing in this. This doesn't work like other insurance markets such as car insurance or life insurance. Risk is not easily calculable, sunk costs are infinite, and people highly overestimate any kind of assigned value.

The idea you can throw a "free market" at this is just absurd.
 
2009-08-06 06:37:30 PM
h8_u_2
winterwhile: Nanny care

don't get Cancer

Despite having private health insurance, cancer patients are running up large debts, filing for personal bankruptcy, and even delaying or forgoing treatment because they can't afford care, a new report from the American Cancer Society and the Kaiser Family Foundation shows.

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/NWS/content/NWS_1_1x_Private_Health_Insurance_Doe s nt_Protect_Cancer_Patients_from_High_Costs_Report_Illustrates.asp

"The stories of people with cancer in this study and video documentary show what our earlier survey work found: that the insurance system often fails people when they need it most, when they get really sick," said Kaiser Family Foundation President and CEO Drew Altman, PhD.


I had Cancer, I can only tell you what happened to me.

I got 3-4 options under the Market based system, when I checked Canada, they offered one solution.

Now, the Canadian fix, has a 93% success rate, the same as my Proton Treatment (Cost was over 100K for Protons, vrs a simple 20K surgery Canada solution.)

My problem... The side effects are huge on Men getting cut (pee in a bag for life?), and very small side effects for the expensive Proton Radiation treatment.

Bonus, I no longer glow in the dark when running, so cars have to weave around me now.
 
2009-08-06 06:37:35 PM
The American healthcare system is a grand experiment in passive eugenics.
 
2009-08-06 06:38:02 PM
Obdicut: You're becoming less coherent with every post.

In a sense, he's becoming more coherent. It's becoming obvious he has no idea what he's talking about.
 
2009-08-06 06:38:06 PM
Obdicut: skullkrusher: no, the free market is broken due to price collusion. DoJ should use its anti-trust powers to break it up. Allowing it to operate again...

Break what up? The insurance companies?

You're becoming less coherent with every post.


break up vertical price collusion between insurers, equipment manufacturers and drug companies. Hell, even put some price controls in there. Encourage Geico to start selling health insurance by making it possible to break into those markets. That sort of thing.
 
2009-08-06 06:38:18 PM
Shryke: DamnYankees: Obdicut: "things that are necessary or extremely good for the working of society and cannot be fully supplied by the profit motive".

I don't think theres a binary choice between "right" and what you describe. It's all a question of relative value. The basic question is simply - is X important enough to living a full life in society that the government and society should do its best to provide it to all people? Whatever you want to call it, you can.

So, things like food and water should be provided by the taxpayer to all. Yes? What about electricity? I'd say those three things are far more prevalent and necessary in my life than health insurance. Wheere is the line drawn between what you are entitled to, and what you need to earn?


Shryke:
RemyDuron: What? Electricity is more necessary to life than health insurance? Really? Comfortable life maybe, but cooking with fire and reading by candle is not going to kill you or bankrupt you. Lack of health care and health insurance, respectively, can do those things.

Nonsense. Lacking either can do *nothing* to you. Additionally, lack of electricity can result in quite a bit more than just discomfort, as well. Consider heating and refrigeration. Better yet, were you given the choice to give electricity or health insurance up forever, I would bet I know which one you would choose to keep: eletricity.

Regardless, you are avoiding an appropriate question. Answer my question regarding food and water, please. Where does my wallet end, and your begin?


What are you talking about? Food and water ARE provided to everyone through tax dollars.

Last I checked I can turn on the tap and drink the water. It's not because I have a well under my house.

Likewise, if you are starving there are things called soup kitchens and food stamps.

Your argument on electricity is also poorly constructed. The harnessing of electricity is only about 150 years old. We got along fine before it was around. Doctors and medical experts are almost one of the oldest professions and can be found in almost every society. It's a pretty good indicator on which is the more important.
 
2009-08-06 06:38:58 PM
winterwhile: I had Cancer, I can only tell you what happened to me.

I got 3-4 options under the Market based system, when I checked Canada, they offered one solution.

Now, the Canadian fix, has a 93% success rate, the same as my Proton Treatment (Cost was over 100K for Protons, vrs a simple 20K surgery Canada solution.)

My problem... The side effects are huge on Men getting cut (pee in a bag for life?), and very small side effects for the expensive Proton Radiation treatment.

Bonus, I no longer glow in the dark when running, so cars have to weave around me now.


You have already been shown that Canada has working proton treatment which has been used for a decade, so why are you still lying about it?

Just habit?
 
2009-08-06 06:39:01 PM
skullkrusher: break up vertical price collusion between insurers, equipment manufacturers and drug companies. Hell, even put some price controls in there. Encourage Geico to start selling health insurance by making it possible to break into those markets. That sort of thing.

Hasn't this guy been railing against government involvement in healthcare for an hour now?
 
2009-08-06 06:39:26 PM
skullkrusher: Life expectancy has the US at the top when you remove "unnatural" deaths caused by homicides and accidents. I've never heard anyone say that emergency treatment in the US is subpar so that difference in the expectancy including and excluding unnatural deaths is significant.

That argument might not be complete...

Carl Haub, a demographer at the Population Reference Bureau in Washington, D.C., said the method was incomplete. A more-precise analysis would have removed those who died from these causes from overall mortality stats, and then recalculated life expectancy. (new window)

Also, violence and accidents cost a lot of money to treat and need to be mentioned in the debate- although, not necessarily when it comes to life expectancy.
 
2009-08-06 06:39:28 PM
well, it's been fun. Time for me to head out.

Please do try to have an open mind about things and have a respectful debate, guys. It would make you all seem less douchey.
 
2009-08-06 06:40:26 PM
skullkrusher: Encourage Geico to start selling health insurance

That's the ticket!

Why didn't WE think of that?

All our problems are solved!
 
2009-08-06 06:40:39 PM
skullkrusher: Encourage Geico to start selling health insurance by making it possible to break into those markets.

Berkshire Hathaway has some pretty great actuaries. I don't see why the company would break away from it's core competency of excellent risk assessment and tight pricing models for something like health insurance where you don't get to use either of those advantages.

This is like saying we should let Boeing make cars because they make things that move people at a rapid speed.
 
2009-08-06 06:41:48 PM
palladiate: In a sense, he's becoming more coherent. It's becoming obvious he has no idea what he's talking about.

I could write a bot for him that would have the same effect of his conscious effort.

Of course, that's true for a lot of people on this site.

/or are they people?

skullkrusher: break up vertical price collusion between insurers, equipment manufacturers and drug companies. Hell, even put some price controls in there. Encourage Geico to start selling health insurance by making it possible to break into those markets. That sort of thing.

Equipment manufacturers? What the holy fark are you talking about?

You've gone round the bend, my friend.
 
2009-08-06 06:41:59 PM
skullkrusher: well, it's been fun. Time for me to head out.

Please do try to have an open mind about things and have a respectful debate, guys. It would make you all seem less douchey.


Any tips on making you seem less insane?
 
2009-08-06 06:42:33 PM
skullkrusher: Please do try to have an open mind about things and have a respectful debate, guys. It would make you all seem less douchey.

"Take facts and put them together and get the big picture, jackhole." -Skullkrusher

Oh the irony!
 
2009-08-06 06:43:47 PM
skullkrusher: well, it's been fun. Time for me to head out.

Please do try to have an open mind about things and have a respectful debate, guys. It would make you all seem less douchey.


He did it again!

Every time he starts losing the debate (that would be every time he is in any debate) he leaves!!!!

This is the third time in as many days I have observed this behavior.
 
2009-08-06 06:43:49 PM
nazbot:
Last I checked I can turn on the tap and drink the water. It's not because I have a well under my house.



No, it's because you've paid (or your landlord pays) the public works department a fee to deliver water. If you did not pay that fee, you would not be able to turn on the tap and drink water.
 
2009-08-06 06:43:49 PM
Salt Lick Steady: museisluse

You're missing the point here - the point being that this is an extremely preliminary draft, and there are portions that can and will be debated (a lot) and tinkered with. A before-the-fall deadline was impracticable, but on the other hand it was essential that Obama push this forcefully in order to circumvent the effects of the inevitable push back from the familiar players.

But the strategy of many GOP members and insurance lobbyists has been to essentially try to shut down any kind of reform. Even though anyone with half a wit can look at the numbers and see that the way we're currently paying for health care will, if left unchecked, literally destroy the economy.

It astounds me to hear people make these arguments and comments that there must be some sort of nefarious subplot to all this.


You have got to be kidding. What else can anyone use to judge this bill besides what is written?
Not suppositions that oh, this will be discussed. So I shouldn't pay any attention to what the proposed bill says, and just trust that things like this are simply negotiating tools. Save the supercilious attitude of "I know how these negotiating things work, and all of you doofusi should just relax and wait until the bill is passed before worrying about what is now the law". I know this is FARK, but really, there are intelligent people in this discussion.

As promised, HR 3200, page 27, subhead (3) for the benefit limits
 
2009-08-06 06:44:48 PM
CapStormfield: Call out the whole damned media to publish BS. The American people know a clusterfark when they see one.

I submit to you: Iran/Contra, Al Queda's creation, Kosovo, Iraq, Bush's first term, Bush's second term.

My conclusion: No. No they don't.


skullkrusher: it doesn't have to be a conspiracy to be a shiatty ranking system... a system the WHO no longer compiles and has not in 10 years because of the difficulty in creating it

And yet there is no data refuting the results of that system.
 
2009-08-06 06:45:16 PM
Obdicut

winterwhile: I had Cancer, I can only tell you what happened to me.

I got 3-4 options under the Market based system, when I checked Canada, they offered one solution.

Now, the Canadian fix, has a 93% success rate, the same as my Proton Treatment (Cost was over 100K for Protons, vrs a simple 20K surgery Canada solution.)

My problem... The side effects are huge on Men getting cut (pee in a bag for life?), and very small side effects for the expensive Proton Radiation treatment.

Bonus, I no longer glow in the dark when running, so cars have to weave around me now.

You have already been shown that Canada has working proton treatment which has been used for a decade, so why are you still lying about it?

Just habit?


Oh My God

i have been ratted out.... noooooooooooooooooooo

The Canadian Proton unit has treated like 169 folks?

Yea, thats nanny Care for you. Thanks for making my point.

Under the evil USA, Loma Linda treats close to 1,000 per year, with over 15,000 treated.

Darn the Market based system, I want more Nanny Care.
 
2009-08-06 06:47:04 PM
Sad how there is no one disputing that Salon got any of this wrong, they're just attacking Democrats instead.

It's amazing how the liberal media haven't been busy exposing Republican lies all of this time. I mean, if I were a liberal media outlet, I'd be having a field day with this shiat.

F*ck, even an objective media outlet should be exposing this bullsh*t.
 
2009-08-06 06:47:28 PM
Pro Zack: The trick was to take a legitimate argument "Do we really want government to be in on "end of life" consultations? isn't that creepy"

The government isn't in on anything. Just because you are misrepresenting the bill in a less inflammatory way than others doesn't forgive the fact you are still misrepresenting it.

There is a consultation between a patient and their doctor to inform them about advance care directives, hospice arrangements, etc.

Read the god damn bill before lying about it or repeating the lies of others. Below is the relevant text from Sec 1233. Why is it that none of these anti-UHC posts about the evils of the bill ever include the actual text of the bill (oh wait, I know why, because it would make clear they are lying).

'(hhh)(1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the term 'advance care planning consultation' means a consultation between the individual and a practitioner

'(2) A practitioner described in this paragraph is--

'(A) a physician (as defined in subsection (r)(1));

'(B) a nurse practitioner or physician's assistant who has the authority under State law to sign orders for life sustaining treatments.


There is no government bureaucrat. It's your health care provider, your doctor or a nurse, that you meet with. They aren't there to encourage grandma to off herself to save money. They are going to go over a lot of stuff you should be prepared for. As someone who lost a parent in the not too distant past, a consultation to prepare my family for the simultaneous bureaucratic and emotional nightmare that dying an inevitable and slow death from a incurable degenerative condition involves, instead of my surviving parent having to figure it out as he went. Dealing with both the complex health care establishment and the loss of a loved at the same time isn't fun, and a little preparation would have been nice.
 
2009-08-06 06:49:21 PM
winterwhile: the same as my Proton Treatment (Cost was over 100K for Protons, vrs a simple 20K surgery Canada solution.)

You're not thinking.
 
2009-08-06 06:50:27 PM
Obdicut: Of course, that's true for a lot of people on this site.

If I didn't know non-internet people who flaunted their ignorance in such a way, I wouldn't think it's possible. It happens to the best of us on some subjects, but damn.

I hate the whole debate. There is a nation of whiners who think the world, economics, and society work to some bullshiat standard of which only they have occult and special knowledge.

Not all markets can be free when left on their own, not all markets are most efficient when free, and not all naturally free markets are what a democratic society would naturally tolerate.

The whole damn ignorant debate just makes me go past teabagger and put on a whole kettle of yelling and contemptable ideas until maybe someone gets the point that's it not about money, efficiency, freedom, or divine mandate of free markets. It's about creating a society that works the way most of us want it to, and create a standard of living we're happy with.

And goddamnit, we're Americans, so don't hand me the horseshiat we can't do whatever the hell we want and make it work. We might argue over what's the best and most agreeable way of running our country, but anyone who throws out the "we'll never make it work" should taken to 500 miles offshore, dropped off, and told to go find some other country to stink up.
 
2009-08-06 06:51:17 PM
The Bruce Dickinson: skullkrusher: Please do try to have an open mind about things and have a respectful debate, guys. It would make you all seem less douchey.

"Take facts and put them together and get the big picture, jackhole." -Skullkrusher

Oh the irony!


That's what he does.

His faulty understanding of the issue is revealed and he leaves.

I have seen him do it 3 times now.
 
2009-08-06 06:51:37 PM
winterwhile: The Canadian Proton unit has treated like 169 folks?

You originally lied and claimed that Canada didn't have one, and then lied and said it was for research only. why would anyone trust your numbers?


winterwhile: Under the evil USA, Loma Linda treats close to 1,000 per year, with over 15,000 treated.

Oooh, Loma Linda? Great!

From 1998-2003, Loma Linda has received $167.2 million in congressional funds, the number one academic recipient in the country getting nearly $60 million more than the runner up, the University of South Florida.

Do your protons feel tainted by the nanny-state fingerprints on them now?
 
2009-08-06 06:52:44 PM
winterwhile: the same as my Proton Treatment

My god, somewhere there is a box of neutrons just sitting there because of this bastard.

The Neutrons!! Won't someone think of the Neutrons?!!?!?
 
2009-08-06 06:52:55 PM
Obdicut: Do your protons feel tainted by the nanny-state fingerprints on them now?

Proton taint.

That is the worst crime.
 
2009-08-06 06:53:58 PM
Obdicut: winterwhile: The Canadian Proton unit has treated like 169 folks?

You originally lied and claimed that Canada didn't have one, and then lied and said it was for research only. why would anyone trust your numbers?


You're supposed to feel sad about his cancer and give him a pass.

But I'll loan you my cancer card and my penis mangling sympathy cards if you want to devolve this into some kind of "who's appeal to emotion is bigger" contest. If we're going on magnitude of damage and lethality of cancer, I got him beat.
 
2009-08-06 06:54:02 PM
Epoch_Zero: winterwhile: the same as my Proton Treatment

My god, somewhere there is a box of neutrons just sitting there because of this bastard.

The Neutrons!! Won't someone think of the Neutrons?!!?!?


I would not want the government messing with neutron decay. This bill is stupid.
 
2009-08-06 06:54:02 PM
palladiate: If I didn't know non-internet people who flaunted their ignorance in such a way, I wouldn't think it's possible. It happens to the best of us on some subjects, but damn.

I hate the whole debate. There is a nation of whiners who think the world, economics, and society work to some bullshiat standard of which only they have occult and special knowledge.

Not all markets can be free when left on their own, not all markets are most efficient when free, and not all naturally free markets are what a democratic society would naturally tolerate.

The whole damn ignorant debate just makes me go past teabagger and put on a whole kettle of yelling and contemptable ideas until maybe someone gets the point that's it not about money, efficiency, freedom, or divine mandate of free markets. It's about creating a society that works the way most of us want it to, and create a standard of living we're happy with.

And goddamnit, we're Americans, so don't hand me the horseshiat we can't do whatever the hell we want and make it work. We might argue over what's the best and most agreeable way of running our country, but anyone who throws out the "we'll never make it work" should taken to 500 miles offshore, dropped off, and told to go find some other country to stink up.


I angrily shake my stick in agreement. Which sounds a lot gayer than it is.

It really, really, really does annoy me when people ping-pong between pragmatic and ideological arguments. I think that's one of the main reasons this argument is so farked up. People who answer an ideological question get attacked on pragmatic grounds, and vice versa. It's kind of impossible to do both at once.
 
2009-08-06 06:54:09 PM
PartTimeBuddha: Obdicut: Do your protons feel tainted by the nanny-state fingerprints on them now?

Proton taint.

That is the worst crime.


And there goes the rest of the thread.
 
2009-08-06 06:55:39 PM
The_Six_Fingered_Man: PartTimeBuddha: Obdicut: Do your protons feel tainted by the nanny-state fingerprints on them now?

Proton taint.

That is the worst crime.

And there goes the rest of the thread.


It's what it would have wanted.
 
2009-08-06 06:56:07 PM
Obdicut: Do your protons feel tainted by the nanny-state fingerprints on them now?

Haha, that was beautiful.
 
2009-08-06 06:56:48 PM
PartTimeBuddha: The_Six_Fingered_Man: PartTimeBuddha: Obdicut: Do your protons feel tainted by the nanny-state fingerprints on them now?

Proton taint.

That is the worst crime.

And there goes the rest of the thread.

It's what it would have wanted.


Was it even given an end of life consultation?
 
2009-08-06 06:56:50 PM
PartTimeBuddha: The_Six_Fingered_Man: PartTimeBuddha: Obdicut: Do your protons feel tainted by the nanny-state fingerprints on them now?

Proton taint.

That is the worst crime.

And there goes the rest of the thread.

It's what it would have wanted.


How do you know the government didn't kill it because it was old?!!?!
 
2009-08-06 06:58:56 PM
Epoch_Zero: How do you know the government didn't kill it because it was old?!!?!

It was not economically viable.
 
2009-08-06 07:03:19 PM
CynicalLA: He's a crazy Libertarian that hates government with a passion. He's as biased as the partisans from either side.

Thank God he's not allowed on the roads.
 
2009-08-06 07:04:31 PM
I don't have a problem with abortion or euthanasia.

I don't have a problem with rationing care. Its called triage.
 
2009-08-06 07:10:11 PM
Here's the WHO's report on health indicators by nation. It uses data from 1980-2003.

Also, the figures are computed by WHO to ensure comparability.

nations A-F (new window)

nations G-O (new window)

nations P-Z (new window)
 
2009-08-06 07:10:48 PM
Myth 1: Democrats want to kill your grandmother.

This one infuriates me the most. All these old farks are biatching about government spending tax dollars on Onamacare but they are all on Medicare, which is for people over 65.

Practice what you preach. If you don't want government insurance for everyone stop getting assistance from the government.
 
2009-08-06 07:19:01 PM
There is a tiny bit of common ground between both sides in this thread. Both sides seem to agree about number 5, in fact the article has no business calling it a myth since it is literally true that under Obama's plan government bureaucracy WILL ration healthcare as opposed to now where insurance companies ration healthcare everyone here seems to agree on that fact.

The question seems to be who do we want deciding who gets care? A corporation? or the government?

These are 2 shiatTY choices, the corporations will deny you coverage in order to meet the quarterly numbers... a government worker will deny you because it's tuesday.

My brother has Huntington's disease, in a couple of years he'll be in wheelchair and his mind is already starting to go. I called up social security and asked about getting on disability, wook down the information and then later i had some questions so i called the office back talked to a different person who told me something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from the first person. Try it yourself call any government agency you like and ask them a question they should know, then call them up later and ask a different person the exact same question about half the time your gonna get a different answer. shiat like this is why I have no faith in the government. And nowhere in Obama's plan does mandate that the new health care bureaucracy must competent people. If you think the TSA are a bunch of brain damaged fark ups at least you option of never flying. Imagine going to people like that looking for health care?

And finally lets get to the congressional angle in all this. Every year the congress is going to have to authorize the money to fund this thing. And at that time each and every congressman and senator will take that opportunity to tinker with the minimum required services and use this as there own political football. A congressman in a tight election gets expanded access to MRI's, a senator not up for re-election for a few years lets the hospitals restrict orthopedic surgery to save money (some of which will be donated to the senator eventual re-election). Even without the insurance companies the hospitals and doctors are still out to make money. The thing about allowing abortions will likely change depending on which party is in power in any given year. We've been watching the on again off again bickering in congress about whether to build more F-22 fighters, crap like that happens all the time because each congressman is serving his own political agenda, well get ready to see us and our thrown into the middle of this.

I'm sure at first they'll put controls in place to prevent such things but as soon as the first person gets denied some operation, it won't matter if the denial was for a good reason, you'll see a sob story on the evening news and the local congressman will try to score political points by being outraged and demanding that if congress is spending the money congress should have say in what gets covered. Five years after that they'll on the floor of the senate debating how much to spend on brain surgery and whatever number they settle on decides how many people with brain cancer live or die.

You think Bush was scary when he was in charge of the military? imagine the next Bush in charge of your doctor?
 
Displayed 50 of 451 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | » | Last | Show all



This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report