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(CBS News)   We have always been at war with Amazon. Amazon sued for Kindle deletion of Orwell   (cbsnews.com ) divider line
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7782 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Aug 2009 at 12:22 PM (6 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2009-08-01 12:24:55 PM  
A large multinational corporate lawyer took my assigned reading based on copyright infringement.

Yesh, we've all used that excuse before growing up to get out of homework.
 
2009-08-01 12:30:06 PM  
One hungry lawyer.
One pissed off consumer.
One company with many assets.

Amazon should probably fight and win. I wouldn't suggest they settle.

/not a lawyer
//works for a few
///all scum
////except those I hire or those that pay me
 
2009-08-01 12:30:25 PM  
Why doesn't he just go to the library and get the book?
 
2009-08-01 12:30:44 PM  
Back in my day, all my page-by-page notes for various research projects were handwritten. Amazon would be hard-pressed to delete those!

/Get off my lawn!
 
2009-08-01 12:30:45 PM  
FTA: Gawronski told The Associated Press he was assigned "1984" for an advanced placement course in which students must turn in "reflections" on each 100 pages of text when they return from summer break, then take a test. He was a quarter to halfway through the book when it disappeared from his Kindle.

His notes on the book were "rendered useless because they no longer referenced the relevant parts of the book," according to the lawsuit.


He was a quarter to halfway through with a (maybe) 400 page book? Just buy a legal copy and read the damn thing over again. It should take you all of what--two days?
 
2009-08-01 12:32:50 PM  
I can imagine "Don't panic" printed in large, friendly letters on the Kindle.
 
2009-08-01 12:34:31 PM  
I love how the article suggests Amazon "Hacked" the Kindles to get the books off of them.

If you paid money for a Kindle, you deserved it.

and furthermore, how are his notes "rendered worthless because they no longer reference relevant parts of the book?" (not an exact quote". I'm 100% certain the paper-back is the same book, and it's available online FREE as a PDF, I know because I'm reading it as such.

Kid is a retard, but his point is valid and Amazon was indeed wrong/stupid for not at least giving the "owners" fair warning.

anyone know what the agreement is with Amazon when you "buy" these "books"? are they considered your property?
 
2009-08-01 12:34:42 PM  

AfternoonDelight: Why doesn't he just go to the library and get the book?


All that flipping of real pages would be too hard and tiring. And he might get...a papercut! *gasp*
 
2009-08-01 12:34:57 PM  
We will have to board them. Take no prisoners! The time for lawyers has passed. Chain shot to their masts. Keep an eye out for sharp shooters. Aim for the corporate officers and take Captain Bezos alive.

/lawsuits are so boring
/i thought the fad of piracy should expand to consumer action against corporations.
/cutlasses at the ready, boys!
 
2009-08-01 12:38:09 PM  
TheShavingofOccam123

There's a piratebay.org joke in there somewhere.

/could use some corporate loot to line my coffers.
 
2009-08-01 12:40:11 PM  
Bruguier complained to Amazon repeatedly after losing his copy of "1984," appealing in vain for that or an authorized edition to be restored to his Kindle, according to the lawsuit. "I thought that once purchased, the books were mine," he wrote.

This is one of the reasons why you shouldn't buy a DRM-encumbered device that connects to the Internet. I'm also not interested in having my reading habits data mined so I can get targeted ads, as well.
 
2009-08-01 12:40:36 PM  
His notes on the book were "rendered useless because they no longer referenced the relevant parts of the book," according to the lawsuit.

...how does that make any sense?
 
2009-08-01 12:40:38 PM  

pugsleythegreat: anyone know what the agreement is with Amazon when you "buy" these "books"? are they considered your property?


Welcome to the 21st century. Call me in 50 years when anyone figures out the answer to that question. Right now, nobody knows.
 
2009-08-01 12:41:21 PM  

pugsleythegreat: I love how the article suggests Amazon "Hacked" the Kindles to get the books off of them.

If you paid money for a Kindle, you deserved it.

and furthermore, how are his notes "rendered worthless because they no longer reference relevant parts of the book?" (not an exact quote". I'm 100% certain the paper-back is the same book, and it's available online FREE as a PDF, I know because I'm reading it as such.

Kid is a retard, but his point is valid and Amazon was indeed wrong/stupid for not at least giving the "owners" fair warning.

anyone know what the agreement is with Amazon when you "buy" these "books"? are they considered your property?


The kid ISN'T a retard. Its a stupid point to make, but it has legal ground. So tell me, who's exactly retarded, the kid who makes the claim, or the government that allows him to?
 
2009-08-01 12:45:27 PM  

Just smiling and noddding: AfternoonDelight: Why doesn't he just go to the library and get the book?

All that flipping of real pages would be too hard and tiring. And he might get...a papercut! *gasp*


I will never understand why people consider being a part-time Luddite a virtue.

In spite of what people may think, there are compelling reason to get devices like the Kindle. Students, in particular, LOVE these devices. Textbooks are often cheaper and you don't need to carry around 30lbs of paper all day.

/Doesn't use a kindle
//Likes books better
 
2009-08-01 12:45:42 PM  

dervish16108: Back in my day, all my page-by-page notes for various research projects were handwritten. Amazon would be hard-pressed to delete those!


Room 101 for you. Right now. Doubleplus haste.
 
2009-08-01 12:47:42 PM  

jennyz: His notes on the book were "rendered useless because they no longer referenced the relevant parts of the book," according to the lawsuit.

...how does that make any sense?


They were probably inline notes, i.e. something you'd scribble in the margin of a dead-tree version. Take away the text of the book and the notes are pretty much useless.
 
2009-08-01 12:47:49 PM  

jennyz: His notes on the book were "rendered useless because they no longer referenced the relevant parts of the book," according to the lawsuit.

...how does that make any sense?


my guess is that you can 'attach' notes to the 'book' file....
...when that book disappears, all the references that are tied to certain lines/pages are rendered useless because they no longer link to anything.

(think about fark suddenly losing the ability to link to other webpages....the headlines become mostly useless)

/ok, not useless...but sometimes not as funny
//hopes someons who actually owns a damn kindle will explain
 
2009-08-01 12:48:21 PM  
Information wants to be free.

//Sigh
 
2009-08-01 12:50:43 PM  
img1.fark.net
 
2009-08-01 12:51:37 PM  
Every class action lawsuit needs a lead plaintiff to start things out. Class action suits make lawyers rich and get the actually damaged a coupon. So, this kid likely has a family member or a friend of the family who is a lawyer, and he gets to be lead plaintiff to get the money machine rolling.

I wouldn't even be surprised if a lawyer trolled the local high school to find some kid he could pay with a couple grand to be a lead plaintiff for some class action suit.

Give a high school enough cash for a low end used car while pocketing millions in legal fees.
 
2009-08-01 12:52:49 PM  

MightyPez: Just smiling and noddding: AfternoonDelight: Why doesn't he just go to the library and get the book?

All that flipping of real pages would be too hard and tiring. And he might get...a papercut! *gasp*

I will never understand why people consider being a part-time Luddite a virtue.

In spite of what people may think, there are compelling reason to get devices like the Kindle. Students, in particular, LOVE these devices. Textbooks are often cheaper and you don't need to carry around 30lbs of paper all day.

/Doesn't use a kindle
//Likes books better


Don't get me wrong, I have a crap-ton of books on my iPod Touch and it's awesome when I'm traveling. It's just nice to read a "real" book sometimes as well.
 
2009-08-01 12:54:22 PM  
GoGoGo

I conjecture anyone on Fark who does for some reason own a kindle probably won't admit to it.
 
2009-08-01 12:56:19 PM  
Couldn't he back them up? I would think someone has a backup solution.
 
2009-08-01 12:57:40 PM  

pugsleythegreat: Kid is a retard, but his point is valid and Amazon was indeed wrong/stupid for not at least giving the "owners" fair warning.

anyone know what the agreement is with Amazon when you "buy" these "books"? are they considered your property?


I'm sure there must be a clause buried in a lengthy service agreement somewhere that says Amazon can delete the files in situations like this.
 
2009-08-01 12:58:40 PM  
Bollixed? For farking serious? British slang/profanity in the first line of a CBS news article?
 
2009-08-01 01:01:45 PM  
Obligatory post in these threads: Richard Stallman's The Right to Read.
 
2009-08-01 01:06:29 PM  
How much did he sue them for? Fifty brazillion?
 
2009-08-01 01:07:11 PM  
DblDad

That was pretty cool. thanks.
 
2009-08-01 01:09:13 PM  

MightyPez: Just smiling and noddding: AfternoonDelight: Why doesn't he just go to the library and get the book?

All that flipping of real pages would be too hard and tiring. And he might get...a papercut! *gasp*

I will never understand why people consider being a part-time Luddite a virtue.

In spite of what people may think, there are compelling reason to get devices like the Kindle. Students, in particular, LOVE these devices. Textbooks are often cheaper and you don't need to carry around 30lbs of paper all day.

/Doesn't use a kindle
//Likes books better


Because the devices have a limited screen, and you can only see what is on that limited screen. Scrolling or paging is slower than flipping a page.

Since you mentioned text books, I could see the entire formula derivation on a single page, because text books are usually printed with a font/page size combination to do such. Having to scroll pages greatly reduces the clarity of the derivation to a student (who, by virtue of being a student, does not understand the material, so must review it multiple times). Unless the device has a screen the size of the physical text book (We'll say roughly a 15" screen) it's going to compress and distort the material. Plus my books never 'ran out of battery life' during the middle of a study session, mandating I study only near power outlets, or break what I was doing to go recharge them.

For pleasure reading, the device might be adequate, though I dislike reading books on the computer. Books are usually written to be in book format, not PDF or whatever. Also, the screen size of the kindles I have seen is still far smaller than the size of an average paperback's page.

I have a generally high reading speed (I can finish a 200-400 page novel in a day, and enjoy reading it).

I found the PDF version of DnD books useful, but I have never been able to read 'real' books on my computer, or any digital system.

It is hardly being a ludite. It is more refusing to adopt to technology which is overly restrictive, only lets you 'rent' things you purchase, and is in fact inferior in many facets to the medium it is trying to replace.

If I purchased a copy of 1984, it would never run out of battery life, or be removed from my possesion (unless of course the firemen were called). While the ability to carry, say, 400 novels in your pocket is novel, the novelty wears off quickly. Because I can easily go to the library, or even the bookstore, and obtain a physical copy of the item, which I can read in the same, or even more dire, situations (say, after a Hurricane passes and I'm without power for 4 weeks, which has happened to me several times). And once I am done, I can simply swap it for another novel. If I am close to being finished, I can carry 2 novels, and hot-swap once I finish the first one. This adds, we'll say, a pound to my daily carry.

Books are not music or video. They require an investment of longer than 3-10 minutes to really 'get' anything from them. I have yet to know someone who wanted to read just those 3 pages of the new Harry book, while there are multiple people who like to listen to that new single by Randomperson.

I think the kindle is a semi laudable device. It is attempting to do for books what Ipods did for music. But the reality is that it falls far short of the physical media it replaces. Both for technical, physical, and licensing reasons.
 
2009-08-01 01:09:55 PM  

GoGoGo: my guess is that you can 'attach' notes to the 'book' file....
...when that book disappears, all the references that are tied to certain lines/pages are rendered useless because they no longer link to anything.

(think about fark suddenly losing the ability to link to other webpages....the headlines become mostly useless)

/ok, not useless...but sometimes not as funny
//hopes someons who actually owns a damn kindle will explain


I own one. Since the text size for any book is variable (you have multiple size to choose from) - there aren't "page numbers". Instead, each page you view is assigned a "location range", like 1-109, or 110-210 that I think Amazon bases off the line numbers the pages start and end at.

The notes you type into the device are tied to the location number you typed the notes on so if you do change the text size later, the notes are still associated with the text you were reading when you typed the note.

Take away the book and you have a text file with your notes and a "location" tagged on the end of each note. Not exactly useful if you need to go back and review what the hell you were talking about.

Amazon was being crazy dickish about this, but all the kid had to do was back up his purchases onto his computer. Amazon makes it easy. You can either drag them directly off your Kindle (it shows up as a USB drive when you plug it in) or you can even download the files directly from your Kindle webpage at Amazon.

I've been paranoid about backing my shiat up. If I had actually purchased this book and Amazon took it, all I would have had to do was rename the file, copy it back to my Kindle, and Amazon couldn't take it anymore.

Still, dick move, Amazon.
 
2009-08-01 01:10:36 PM  
That's the way the free market works, people. You don't always get what you want, you don't always get what is fair, but in theory you do have a choice.

Take it or revolt. Your choice.
 
2009-08-01 01:18:06 PM  
Dear teacher:

Amazon ate my homework so I won't be able to turn it in.

Well, sound's better than the old dog story...
 
2009-08-01 01:19:02 PM  
I was actually going to buy a Kindle for my wife. She loves ebooks, but hates lugging around her ancient laptop. But, now that I know the company that sells them thinks it o.k. to rummage through them after we buy them, there is no way in hell I'm getting one.
 
2009-08-01 01:19:13 PM  
Can't you download books from projectgutenberg onto your kindle?
 
2009-08-01 01:19:29 PM  
belowner

That was going to be one of my questions (PC interface).

Thanks for clearing that up :)

So, could you load PDF's or .DOC's to it? or is it some wacky proprietary file type ?

Surrender the Kindle's mysteries to me!
 
2009-08-01 01:20:44 PM  

kroonermanblack:
If I purchased a copy of 1984, it would never run out of battery life, or be removed from my possesion (unless of course the firemen were called).


and they will be, they'll find the books in your attic, and burn them, they will burn your house down, and send that hound after you if you try to run.

/couldn't find any quotes
 
2009-08-01 01:21:22 PM  

pugsleythegreat: and furthermore, how are his notes "rendered worthless because they no longer reference relevant parts of the book?" (not an exact quote". I'm 100% certain the paper-back is the same book, and it's available online FREE as a PDF, I know because I'm reading it as such.



When you file a lawsuit, you throw the kitchen sink at the other guy. This might seem like a biatchy, insignificant complaint, but the real issue here is sorting out the legality of what Amazon did. The best thing that could happen is if a judge rules on this and starts its way up the appeals chain.

This will become interesting if he gets the class-action status and they ultimately sue to have the e-books returned. Amazon would be really farked then, because then they'd also have a copyright case to worry about from the estate.

But yeah, having a legal ruling on the limitations of DRM would be nice.
 
2009-08-01 01:21:30 PM  
PDF file +tablet PC makes for great easy reading, assuming the file's out there. Just wish something less fail than PDF was used for most ebooks.
 
2009-08-01 01:21:41 PM  

Gordon Bennett's troll alt: That's the way the free market works, people. You don't always get what you want, you don't always get what is fair, but in theory you do have a choice.

Take it or revolt. Your choice.


So the free market embraces fascism?
 
2009-08-01 01:23:33 PM  
I can't wait for the attorneys to make millions for me to get a 99 cent credit in the Kindle store.
 
2009-08-01 01:26:46 PM  
What's the kid complaining about? He got a real life lesson in the kind of world 1984 depicts. Actually I hope Amazon loses.
 
2009-08-01 01:27:15 PM  
tedbundee

Gordon Bennett's troll alt: That's the way the free market works, people. You don't always get what you want, you don't always get what is fair, but in theory you do have a choice.

Take it or revolt. Your choice.

So the free market embraces fascism?

you took the bait, but you do get points for that being the perfect response. ( I looked at it for a while and couldn't come up with a good enough rebuttal) +1 to you!
 
2009-08-01 01:28:50 PM  
outlawmoogle

I can't wait for the lawyers to win millions so the Kindle itself is in a .99 cent bin.

/would be neato
//won't happen.
 
2009-08-01 01:30:40 PM  
Ugh, this is stupid. Amazon deserves a bit of flack for not being aware 'til it's too late, but the company was distributing the book and had no right to!

Like when there's a CD recall. They, as quickly as possible, get a hold of all the stores that were sold the product and get as much of it back as possible. Offer replacements for those already sold... but sometimes there are some sold that you just aren't getting back.

Now, Amazon might have violated part of their licensing agreement doing what they did, but they had to do something. They had the ability to remote delete and issue a refund, so they did. They couldn't do nothing at all.

Either way, this story is being turned into some post-Orwellian tardfest instead of what it should be: an interesting and informative look at intellectual property rights.
 
2009-08-01 01:35:47 PM  

Barakku: PDF file +tablet PC makes for great easy reading, assuming the file's out there. Just wish something less fail than PDF was used for most ebooks.


This. I use a PDA to carry around my e-Books (and music and movies and games). It's got Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, removable SD memory cards, etc. HTML makes a great universal e-book format, since you can format text any way you want in it and PDAs that connect to the Internet already come with a web browser. And there's no DRM to deal with.
 
2009-08-01 01:38:18 PM  
img13.imageshack.us


what a Patty Smith may look like.
 
2009-08-01 01:42:13 PM  
Two lawsuits bad. Four lawsuits good!
 
2009-08-01 01:43:03 PM  

veryequiped: I find it more than coincidence that those books were removed.
Young minds seeing history repeat itself, exposing the elite, we can't have that!
I also couldn't help notice none of their elitist propaganda crap was touched
Just wake up already people


The books were removed because a person used the self-publishing tool to post unlicensed copies of them. The actual publisher presumably complained about this, and Amazon pulled both.

Both are available as Kindle editions posted by the actual publishers.

Nice conspiracy theory though.
 
2009-08-01 01:44:44 PM  
"Amazon.com had no more right to hack into people's Kindles than its customers have the right to hack into Amazon's bank account to recover a mistaken overpayment," Edelson said.

The lawyer has his anus cross-wired with his mouth. You don't buy a book with a Kindle, you buy licensed access which is owned by Amazon. If Amazon don't remove pirate software they get hammered, all they are doing is protecting the intellectual copyright. Instead of throwing all that small print in the trash you might want to read it some day...
 
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