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(Autoweb.com.au)   Mercedes' brilliant electronic brake-by-wire system. Even less excuses for running your husband over   (autoweb.com.au) divider line 46
    More: Interesting  
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7613 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Feb 2003 at 11:35 AM (12 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



46 Comments   (+0 »)
   

Archived thread
 
2003-02-22 11:37:11 AM  
I don't think anybody ever argued it was a mechanical problem. The car functioned flawlessly.
 
2003-02-22 11:39:51 AM  
Who cares?
 
HP
2003-02-22 11:40:33 AM  
Who cares indeed..
interesting but useless to me.
 
2003-02-22 11:42:00 AM  
[image from web.qx.net too old to be available]
 
2003-02-22 11:42:55 AM  
Headline directly from Daimler-Benz INC.
 
2003-02-22 11:47:08 AM  
Mechatronics - a new term is gaining popularity within the automotive industry and is rapidly developing into the catchword of a quiet technological revolution which in many fields stands century-old principles on their head. Mechatronics brings together two disciplines which in many cases were thought to be irreconcilable, namely mechanics and electronics.

My first thought:
[image from web.mit.edu too old to be available]

My second thought:
[image from image.allmusic.com too old to be available]
 
2003-02-22 11:50:48 AM  
Yada Yada Yada......
 
2003-02-22 11:50:49 AM  
I think that should be "fewer".

/just woke up and hate everyone grammar Nazi
 
2003-02-22 11:51:58 AM  
http://www.mechaps.com

A bunch of guys trying to build a functional giant robot.
 
2003-02-22 11:59:26 AM  
mechatronic? are anime-fans taking over the world?
 
2003-02-22 12:01:16 PM  
Hmmmm. Page gives date of 23 November 2000?
 
2003-02-22 12:03:06 PM  
Something about having brakes that are electronic instead of mechanical scares me.
 
2003-02-22 12:04:32 PM  
Good old Kryten!
 
2003-02-22 12:05:40 PM  
Illuminix Like airplanes?

Pretty soon you'll be steering like this, too.
 
2003-02-22 12:13:24 PM  
"SBC has performed an illegal operation, please press any pedal to continue your quick uncontrollable decent down the hill!"
 
2003-02-22 12:16:52 PM  
Like airplanes?

Airplanes see a hell of a lot more maintenance that your average car.

Throttle-by-wire? Fine with me. Braking and steering? Nope. Not on a car I drive.
 
2003-02-22 12:19:00 PM  
Oh, those silly. silly Germans...
 
2003-02-22 12:25:49 PM  
Just something else to go wrong.
 
2003-02-22 12:30:10 PM  
I guess Illuminix, and me for that matter are worried about the Goverment(any type) would be able to "tell" the chase car to stop a la Knight Rider.
 
2003-02-22 12:31:24 PM  
bring on them flyin' cars, yehaw!

This guy has to get there one day.
 
2003-02-22 12:38:36 PM  
Let's just hope they didn't get MicroSoft to write the software. Most likely Mercedes has designed a mechanical failsafe into the system so if the electronics die the brakes still work. I hope.
 
2003-02-22 12:45:58 PM  
I might have finished reading that if it wasn't so breathless. Talk about overkill on the marketing end.
 
2003-02-22 12:50:42 PM  
There is a mechanical failsafe. It was mentioned in the article.

"Only in the event of a major fault or power failure inside the 12V vehicle battery does SBC automatically use the services of the tandem master cylinder and instantly establishes a direct hydraulic link between the brake pedal and the front wheel brakes in order to decelerate the car safely."

This isn't Kia we are talking about. Mercedes has always been on the forefront in technology like this, and you should be interested, because eventually this will drip down to cheaper cars, like ABS etc.

BTW, are you people still drunk? An electronic system is doomed to fail, but a mechanical one can neer break? A break line can't fail? The piston can't jam? If you're going to be paranoid farkers, at least be GOOD at being paranoid.
 
2003-02-22 12:52:20 PM  
I do believe that there is a mechanical failsafe built in. If there wasn't, they probably would have just done away with the hydraulics entirely and used electronic actuators
 
2003-02-22 01:02:54 PM  
I'll be happy to test drive it..where the children of the makers of this crap play.
 
2003-02-22 01:12:32 PM  
"I'll be happy to test drive it..where the children of the makers of this crap play."

Good to see that you care so much about the safety of their children, you want to drive the safest car.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2003-02-22 01:15:40 PM  
I don't think I'll be buying one of these.

My car doesn't need to apply brakes when I take my foot off
the gas in a traffic jam. I have a manual transmission. It slows down from engine braking. If it doesn't slow down fast enough I can hit the brake on my own, because I leave more than a foot of space between my car and the car ahead.

And I like the pedal feedback of ABS because it tells me that I am close to the traction limit.
 
2003-02-22 01:29:50 PM  
An electronic system is doomed to fail, but a mechanical one can never break? A break line can't fail? The piston can't jam? If you're going to be paranoid farkers, at least be GOOD at being paranoid.

Mechanical systems are time tested and proven.

If a mechanical system fails, it is usually gradual. With an electronic system, you get no warning.

And the mechanical backup for braking still says nothing about drive-by-wire systems.
 
2003-02-22 01:30:55 PM  
Remaitre and HP: Don't drive much? This system is the next logical step in automotive technology. All-wheel drive helps you go, traction control helps keep you on the road, and managed all-wheel braking will help you stop.

These things eventually make their way down from the luxury vehicles and help make driving safer. So when you ask who cares, I would imagine everyone on the road, particularly anyone who has to do a panic stop on a curved incline in the rain.

Of course, there was always people who don't care about anything.
 
2003-02-22 02:18:18 PM  
Mechanical systems are time tested and proven.
so are electronic ones

If a mechanical system fails, it is usually gradual. With an electronic system, you get no warning.
Bull shiat. When a mechanical system fails, which they often do (moving objects have a tendancy to have wear and tear, unlike electronic ones) there is often little warning. Ironically, any warning is usually from electronic sensors mounted to the mechanical device. Electronics are much easier to monitor for failures than mechanical ones, and warnings can be given more accurately and quicker than mechanical failures.

 
2003-02-22 02:38:55 PM  
Mechanical systems are time tested and proven.
so are electronic ones


Not in the consumer sector.

When a mechanical system fails, which they often do
(moving objects have a tendancy to have wear and tear, unlike electronic ones) there is often little warning.


Wrong on both counts. They don't often fail, and they don't often fail with little warning. They can be inspected for wear and tear long before failure.

The electronic systems do have moving parts, so they get the worst of both worlds. The more complicated the plumbing, the easier it is to clog it up.

I see electronic components on modern cars fail all the time without warning. You might see an old car not running well, but you won't often see one that just fails to start one morning because some sensor is out of whack or EFI suddenly decides to stop working without warning.

When I was a kid and all I could only afford a cheap junker that was 20 years old. The brake system on the car, which was original save for the shoes, worked fine. Wasn't as crisp as an all-disc ABS system, but it worked. So did the carb which was never adjusted quite right, but always worked.
 
2003-02-22 02:50:18 PM  
Great. A braking system that tells me what to do.

"What are you doing Dave? Put your foot back on the brake. I know I've been acting a little irrationally, but I feel much better now."
 
2003-02-22 03:04:17 PM  
Not in the consumer sector.
Wrong, electronics have been in the consumer sector for quite some time.

They don't often fail, and they don't often fail with little warning. They can be inspected for wear and tear long before failure.
Wrong. They do often fail. Ever hear of a mechanic? Yeah, they wouldn't exist on every street corner if mechanical systems rarely fail. You can't just make shiat up as facts when you argue btw.

Those electronic components you see failing all the time, i.e. sensor. They are called transducers, and the part that fails 99.99% of the time is the part that interacts with the environment. In other words, it fails mechanically.
 
2003-02-22 03:08:03 PM  
The electronic systems do have moving parts, so they get the worst of both worlds. The more complicated the plumbing, the easier it is to clog it up.

You are right on that point. I see no reason to make brake by wire. I get pissed whenever people seem to have the attitude that "them thar new fangled dohickies scare me"
 
2003-02-22 03:34:49 PM  
Just you wait, next there'll be electric emergency brakes to pawn off.

Why do I feel old suddenly?

All you Edisonian get-in-the-way of progress types need to step aside and let Darwinism do its thing.
 
2003-02-22 03:35:01 PM  
Wrong. They do often fail. Ever hear of a mechanic? Yeah, they wouldn't exist on every street corner if mechanical systems rarely fail.

Sure they would. If I noticed my brakes start squealing or my gas mileage has gone to crap, or my engine running rough, I'd take it to a mechanic. It isn't a failure of either system, simply something wearing out. Tire installation places exist all over not because tires often blow out and fail, but because they wear. Cars need maintenance, oil changes, brake pads, new plugs, etc. etc. None of this is a failure of a particular system, yet they're all a reason for existence of mechanics.

I don't know if you've visited an auto shop recently, but it seems like most of the work they do nowadays when it comes to a car failing to run has to do with electronic systems.

By the way, I work with embedded systems in industrial settings. It isn't a question of "new fangled dohickies scaring me". It's a question of knowing a sudden failure is possible, even when systems check out the day before. That's not a big deal when it comes to fuel injection or timing. When it comes to brakes or steering, it is.
 
2003-02-22 03:36:29 PM  
Uh hello? People who are arguing FOR drive by wire... I got bad news for you. Heard about a little company called BMW? Well maybe you haven't. They are kinda small.

Well they developed this new amazing car. That runs WIndowsCE. Ths thing had bugs up the wazoo. The tailights flash when you open the trunk, the ignition literally spits out the key if you say turn on the radio, and if you use the radio and the GPS at the same time neither work.

Having braking systems tied into the computer system brings a whole new meaning to BLUE SCREEN OF DEATH.

And you're absolutely right. Elecronic systems may not fail gradually but they can give you warnings. Warnings like DUDE YOU'RE FARKED, YOUR BRAKES JUST FAILED SUDDENLY" Unless of course they fail because the whole computer crashed and then you get no warning at all and your steering locks up and you cant even jump from the car cause you have power windows and the doors are locked with biometrics.
 
2003-02-22 03:53:33 PM  
Surprising number of technophobes here, eh?

They must be surfing Fark on some of these:

[image from adsite.washpost.com too old to be available]
 
HP
2003-02-22 06:58:17 PM  
FlakMonkey-
There are many things in this world that contribute to the safety and well being of society. I guess you are right that this could be a signifcant device, but still the article is useless to me, as I didn't anticpiated to come to fark to learn about a new safety device. This isnt about being a techno phobe; i am sure this device could be revolutionary, but I wasnt very too caring of the article. I welcome technology, but I don't really want to, or care to learn the sematics of the system.

I don't consider 'learning/reading' about a car safety/braking system as one of the things I want to do on my weekend.

There are countless other new safety devices on the market now.. should a link be posted evryweek evrytime there is a new deviced created/marketed?
 
2003-02-22 07:35:01 PM  
HP: By using the word "useless," you meant that it didn't hold entertainment value for you? Fair enough, no one thing can amuse everyone equally. Still, you said that it was interesting, which is all that the [image from img.fark.com too old to be available] tag promised.

Usually if I find a link boring, I don't add a comment. That way, I'm not responsible for running up the comment counter, possibly enticing other farkers to read the thread.

The automotive enthusiasts on the board could probably appreciate the convenience features of the system that go beyond improved stopping ability.

As for myself, I look forward to the day that this kind of system is available on mainstream family sedans, vans, trucks and SUVs [since they aren't going away, might as well make them safer].

It didn't make me laugh, but I did find it [image from img.fark.com too old to be available].

I didn't laugh at the Korean kid who died after his bone marrow transplant, but the [image from img.fark.com too old to be available] tag is fair warning, yes?
 
2003-02-22 08:04:18 PM  


Well they developed this new amazing car. That runs WIndowsCE. Ths thing had bugs up the wazoo. The tailights flash when you open the trunk, the ignition literally spits out the key if you say turn on the radio, and if you use the radio and the GPS at the same time neither work.

Having braking systems tied into the computer system brings a whole new meaning to BLUE SCREEN OF DEATH.

And you're absolutely right. Elecronic systems may not fail gradually but they can give you warnings. Warnings like DUDE YOU'RE FARKED, YOUR BRAKES JUST FAILED SUDDENLY" Unless of course they fail because the whole computer crashed and then you get no warning at all and your steering locks up and you cant even jump from the car cause you have power windows and the doors are locked with biometrics.

You don't know what you're talking about. BMW's system is a (poorly) made attempt at making their most expensive car and its fancy features such as radio, gps, built in cell phone, climate, alarm and so on all accessible from one screen. It does not control any critical applications such as ABS or engine controls.

All safety critical systems are built on specific task-custom hardware using proven software. Windows CE is not proven, nor useful for engine or ABS calculations. Methods exist to prove software mathematically correct so it performs correctly, always. There is an entire sub-industry built around this. Avionics, medical devices, power plant controls and other such safety critical systems are built using this. It undergoes a thorough certification and analysis.

This is very difficult and time consuming to do, which is why in general things that are not safety critical don't undergo certification. For example, when was the last time your engine computer crashed? Virtually every car since the early 80s has had one. Only time ive heard of such a thing was when a guy i know accidentally hooked his ignition up wrong and surged that much power through the thing.

Brake by wire systems are safer than their fully mechanical counterparts. There's well over 30 years of experience in this kind of thing, as most airplanes have been using fly by wire since the early 70s. And unlike a car, you cannot simply pull a plane over to the side of the road.

 
2003-02-22 09:09:02 PM  
a friend of mine worked on/redesigned a product like this for his mechanical engineering senior design project for a component company that deals only with US builders.

in general, i don't think people understand how much testing goes into these things before they're released to the public. i seriously doubt that its unsafe, especially with the mech. back-up system.
 
2003-02-22 10:12:40 PM  
Meh...

I'll stick with my carburetted, points-ignited, non-abs car, and we'll see who's laughing after an EMP leaves 99% of cars stranded on the side of the road...


Seriously, I doubt the value of systems like this. Reduced emergency stopping distances of 3%? I predict that will have ZERO effect on the number of traffic accidents, because they haven't re-engineered the human behind the wheel.

Rave about how much safer a car is with a new "feature", then put the average driver behind the wheel - they will almost without fail drive more recklessly. When ABS first started hitting big, suddenly people were invincible. I remember times when I'd get to work, telling people that the roads were terrible - icy, slick, dangerous - and they'd say, "Ah, no problems - I've got all wheel drive and ABS!"

Traction control, ABS, brake-by-wire, etc. etc. etc. - all good systems that unfortunately keep the average driver oblivious until the laws of physics take over and no system can save their ass.
 
2003-02-22 10:52:09 PM  
Shemp Mo-Din

Amen.
 
2003-02-23 12:05:17 AM  
EMP burst, eh? Intelligent Traction Control in 2004:

[image from wanderlust.co.uk too old to be available]
 
2003-02-23 11:30:56 PM  
With all the electrical problems that pop up on every car make is this really something anyone wants? I have been waiting for drive by wire followed shortly by a shiat load of malfunctions. Power windows still screw up occasionally. Why wouldn't this? Don't think it will? Go to http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/ and check the recalls for really stupid things auto makers should have caught before building the damn cars.
 
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