Zamboro: Bumshway: "And Einstein specifically said he wasn't an atheist."

Quote please. Not that I doubt what you've said but because I'm pretty sure I know the one you're talking about and he doesn't affirm any sort of belief in a higher power therein.

So far as I can tell from his writings he was an agnostic who regarded religion as childish and primitive but who played at a religious presentation of science to please a public that was, at one point, hostile to his apparent godlessness (he regularly did receive and reply to angry letters from priests accusing him of undermining peoples' faith)

At any rate, Einstein was a physicist. He is no more an authority on the existence or nonexistence of deities than my cat Spooky.

Zamboro: Rockstone: "Yeah, and if the study had gone the other way Atheists would have done the same- arguing the same points."

But the results weren't indeterminate. They came out as atheists expected.

You didn't answer any other portions of my post, by the way. Why is it that God has never regenerated the lost limb of an amputee? Why is it always things that might've healed on their own, things that the patients were receiving treatment for at the time?

But you didn't address my statement, you went around it.

And god has never regenerated the lost limb because we don't know the mind of god to begin with. And it isn't always things that might've healed- all the time you hear of people getting better from things that should have killed them.

I drunk what: Rockstone: If you didn't know I'm Catholic, you must be drunk.

oh yeah, i was just in that catholic thread, duh!

/my memory is horrrrible

so I guess you've already witnessed my catholic rantings and don't care to beat that dead horse then?

Not if I can avoid it.

abb3w: I don't think the last one was wharrgarbl. A proclamation of certainty that something does not exist if it has not yet been proven to would be outright scientism, but to meet someone's suggestion that something exists with a "what good reason is there to suppose that it does?" is not. Coming to a tenative negative conclusion is a way of reigning in speculation, pruning the tendrils of wishful thinking so that we do not assume more than we can know at any given point in time.

Does that make any sense? It would be way easier to visualize this in Maya. :-\

CrankMyBlueSax: CrankMyBlueSax: Cthulhu Theory: Should I go on?

Tell us the story about how Jeebus turned himself into wine.

So, if you are God and you turn yourself into wine, then you drink yourself, is that some sort of auto-erotic asphyxiation?

Not if you don't need to breathe!

Rockstone: "But you didn't address my statement, you went around it."

How so?

Rockstone: "And god has never regenerated the lost limb because we don't know the mind of god to begin with."

If there is a mind of god in the first place and if indeed we cannot know it, that does not in itself constitute an explanation of why god has never healed an amputee. At best it's an assertion that the answer cannot be known, which I'd agree with while also pointing out that the unwillingness to heal amputees (in spite of allegedly healing other types of afflictions) raises some troublesome questions about your god.

Rockstone: "And it isn't always things that might've healed- all the time you hear of people getting better from things that should have killed them."

Examples, please.

lordargent: I drunk what

You need to add some more parameters.

For example, what about the people that aren't sure god exists, but if he does exist, he's a bit of an asshole and isn't worthy of worship.

Or the people who aren't sure god exists, but worship him "just incase".

etc

So the people that aren't sure that gods exists but think he is an asshole have assumed that only the Christian god is possible then?

Rockstone: Zamboro: Rockstone: "Yeah, and if the study had gone the other way Atheists would have done the same- arguing the same points."

But the results weren't indeterminate. They came out as atheists expected.

You didn't answer any other portions of my post, by the way. Why is it that God has never regenerated the lost limb of an amputee? Why is it always things that might've healed on their own, things that the patients were receiving treatment for at the time?

But you didn't address my statement, you went around it.

And god has never regenerated the lost limb because we don't know the mind of god to begin with. And it isn't always things that might've healed- all the time you hear of people getting better from things that should have killed them.

Wait a minute. God has never regenerated a lost limb because we don't know the mind of god to begin with?
I fail to see the slightest logical link between those two concepts.
Let alone a causative relationship.

jso2897: "At any rate, Einstein was a physicist. He is no more an authority on the existence or nonexistence of deities than my cat Spooky."

I think physicists presently studying the mechanism by which the big bang occurred might have something authoritative to say about a god alleged to have created the universe.

(I should say Christian/Jewish/Muslim god I guess, but I think that is implied as most of them agree they are worshipping the same god and some of them will kill each other to prove it)

xria: "So the people that aren't sure that gods exists but think he is an asshole have assumed that only the Christian god is possible then?"

I think it's meant to ask why on earth any person who considers themselves ethical would worship a god who commanded a series of genocides in the books of Joshua and Numbers, and who explicitly permitted slavery. It puts one on the level of a neo-nazi who reveres Hitler.

abb3w: Well, it's SUPPOSED to be, dammit!!!

Try here.

That one worked, thanks.

Rockstone: Yeah, and if the study had gone the other way Atheists would have done the same- arguing the same points.

"BALLS!" Said the queen, "if I had 'em I'd be king"...

And interesting proposition, that if the study went the other way...

But it didn't, did it? Is there something in those numbers that says god really did help out the people who were prayed for? Any study that shows prayer regrowing limbs?

Rockstone:

Transubstantiation is very real.


Tell me about it. My pants are all wet now.

Cthulhu Theory: Pshhhh everyone knows all the religions are wrong! God is WATER people! Think about it! It gives us life!

The holy trinity existing as one supreme entity? 2 Hydrogen atoms (The holy ghost, and the father) and 1 oxygen (the son - which is a byprodct of fusion reactions in the sun, which existed after hydrogen, which, notably, the son was theorized 200 yrs after Jesus' time) all composing the singular molecule that makes life as we know it possible. Water!

Now keep in mind the concepts of god were theorized long before the idea that the world was round or that the earth revolved around the sun let alone that it was simply a giant ball of burning gas.

In the beginning there was "god" - in the beginning there was water.

God works in "mysterious ways" - the physics of water is still something only vaguely understood.

You can feel his spirit, but you can't see god - You can touch water but pure water is clear and if something is truly clear then you can't really see it now can you? And for those of you about to argue that pure water is blue, it takes a significantly large amount of water to produce blue, consider your interactions with water on a day to day basis. The water you drink is clear in your glass, the water that comes out of your shower and faucets is clear. The only reason you can even see it is because it's directly interacting with the things around it like air (which incidentally carries water in it).

God is in us - about 70% of the bodies cells are made of H2O (which should be similar to the single-celled organism that science theorized was the start of life as we know it).

But God is perfect! - If you believe this then you haven't read the bible. Also, even drinkably "pure" (synonymous for perfect) water has contaminants.

God is about peace - Water always follows the path of least resistance

God is vengeful - Hurricane Katrina anyone? What happened to the levies? What happened to that New Orleans? Anyone recall that tidal wave in the indian ocean? Yeah, the water was disturbed and wreaked havoc in response.

God is omnipotent - Water can cut steel, shape stone, give life, provide energy and destroy. I'd say that covers a lot of the bases of omnipotence.

Omnipresence? Yeah water is found all over the solar system and traces of water are found throughout our galaxy.

Should I go on?

So... Does that mean God is in the Beer?.

/Communion time!

xria: "but I think that is implied as most of them agree they are worshipping the same god"

Oh ho, no they don't. Ask Tatsuma if he worships the same God as the Christians. Ask any given American Christian whether they worship the same God as the muslims. They often do deny that their gods share common ancestry, as the implications of religious evolution are just as problematic for true believers as biological evolution.

Zamboro: Rockstone: "But you didn't address my statement, you went around it."

How so?

Rockstone: "And god has never regenerated the lost limb because we don't know the mind of god to begin with."

If there is a mind of god in the first place and if indeed we cannot know it, that does not in itself constitute an explanation of why god has never healed an amputee. At best it's an assertion that the answer cannot be known, which I'd agree with while also pointing out that the unwillingness to heal amputees (in spite of allegedly healing other types of afflictions) raises some troublesome questions about your god.

Rockstone: "And it isn't always things that might've healed- all the time you hear of people getting better from things that should have killed them."

Examples, please.

1. "They came out as atheists expected." So if the results had come out the other way- you would have been making excuses too.

2. God has however: Cured the blind

3. http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-08-29-rabies-survivor_N.htm;

Zamboro: xria: "but I think that is implied as most of them agree they are worshipping the same god"

Oh ho, no they don't. Ask Tatsuma if he worships the same God as the Christians. Ask any given American Christian whether they worship the same God as the muslims. They often do deny that their gods share common ancestry, as the implications of religious evolution are just as problematic for true believers as biological evolution.

If they deny that, then that's really sad. I take pride in knowing that half of the world's population believes in my god, the Abrahamic God.

Rockstone: And god has never regenerated the lost limb because we don't know the mind of god to begin with.

Actually, according to this book ^{(^)}, we do...

Matthew 7:7-11
Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Matthew 17:20
For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

Matthew 21:21
I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.

Mark 11:24
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

John 14:12-14
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

Matthew 18:19
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them

I don't see any sources nor do I see any relevant "studies". Who conducted them?

How was this article allowed to be published?

Zamboro: jso2897: "At any rate, Einstein was a physicist. He is no more an authority on the existence or nonexistence of deities than my cat Spooky."

I think physicists presently studying the mechanism by which the big bang occurred might have something authoritative to say about a god alleged to have created the universe.

I don't see how. "God", as posited by those who believe in him, is essentially an airtight theory - his alleged omnipotence trumps the existence or non-existence of any supporting evidence. Once you have accepted the existence of an omnipotent being, ANY fact you may determine can be construed as evidence of it's existence. Note, for instance, the frequent employment of the "accuracy" of prophesies - in which the fact that it is possible for human beings to make reasonably accurate, if broad and generalized, predictions of human events is construed as "evidence" of god's existence. If you accept the premise that a being created our universe, then anything within that universe can be cited as "evidence" of that being's existence.
Sorry, pal - it's turtles all the way down.

I don't know if I believe that

Hey, my random work playlist just started playing Dear God by XTC while I was reading this thread. It's a miracle!

Zamboro: xria: "but I think that is implied as most of them agree they are worshipping the same god"

Oh ho, no they don't. Ask Tatsuma if he worships the same God as the Christians. Ask any given American Christian whether they worship the same God as the muslims. They often do deny that their gods share common ancestry, as the implications of religious evolution are just as problematic for true believers as biological evolution.

Except the two later religions self-defined themselves as worshipping the same god as the Jews, so the Jews have no say in it. They can all argue that the way people in the other two religions (or sects within any of the three) are worshipping/acting isn't doing them any good (and no doubt plenty of them do it very frequently), but that is something else entirely.

And I wouldn't ask Tatsuma anything, as I won't be able to see his answer so it would be fairly pointless.

Rockstone: If they deny that, then that's really sad. I take pride in knowing that half of the world's population believes in my god, the Abrahamic God.

I'm a bit confused by this. Muslims deny the divinity of Jesus and the existence of the Trinity, but Catholics worship the same deity as Muslims?

There is a clear and easy to follow historical linking, but no longer agree with the argument that Jews, Christians and Muslims actually worship the same deity.

Rockstone: "So if the results had come out the other way- you would have been making excuses too."

I don't need to. Once again, the evidence has favored atheism.

xria: "Except the two later religions self-defined themselves as worshipping the same god as the Jews, so the Jews have no say in it. They can all argue that the way people in the other two religions (or sects within any of the three) are worshipping/acting isn't doing them any good (and no doubt plenty of them do it very frequently), but that is something else entirely."

Don't get me wrong, I agree. I'm just repeating what I've heard in threads where it came up. No matter how concretely you demonstrate that Christianity and Islam share common descent, the Christian who denies it will persist in denying it as he cannot bear for it to be true. That attitude is, after all, the essence of religion.

Rockstone: Zamboro: xria: "but I think that is implied as most of them agree they are worshipping the same god"

Oh ho, no they don't. Ask Tatsuma if he worships the same God as the Christians. Ask any given American Christian whether they worship the same God as the muslims. They often do deny that their gods share common ancestry, as the implications of religious evolution are just as problematic for true believers as biological evolution.

If they deny that, then that's really sad. I take pride in knowing that half of the world's population believes in my god, the Abrahamic God.

Half the world's population are of below-average intelligence.

Rockstone: I have reviewed your link and I see nothing miraculous. While rabies is typically lethal, so is AIDs, and yet it has been discovered recently that there exist a handful of individuals worldwide with an immunity. That's how we have historically overcome diseases; large portions of the global population died out and those with an immunity survived to spread their genes to future generations.

I also specified that your example should not include anyone who received medical care:

The Article: "In a desperate attempt to save her, Wisconsin doctors intentionally put her in a coma and gave her a slew of antiviral drugs and other medications to prevent a cascade of events that causes nerve cells to die. She spent two months in intensive care before returning home on New Year's Day, 2005."

Zamboro: Rockstone: I have reviewed your link and I see nothing miraculous. While rabies is typically lethal, so is AIDs, and yet it has been discovered recently that there exist a handful of individuals worldwide with an immunity. That's how we have historically overcome diseases; large portions of the global population died out and those with an immunity survived to spread their genes to future generations.

I also specified that your example should not include anyone who received medical care:

The Article: "In a desperate attempt to save her, Wisconsin doctors intentionally put her in a coma and gave her a slew of antiviral drugs and other medications to prevent a cascade of events that causes nerve cells to die. She spent two months in intensive care before returning home on New Year's Day, 2005."

But even with all of that, she probably wouldn't have lived.

Zamboro: xria: "Except the two later religions self-defined themselves as worshipping the same god as the Jews, so the Jews have no say in it. They can all argue that the way people in the other two religions (or sects within any of the three) are worshipping/acting isn't doing them any good (and no doubt plenty of them do it very frequently), but that is something else entirely."

Don't get me wrong, I agree. I'm just repeating what I've heard in threads where it came up. No matter how concretely you demonstrate that Christianity and Islam share common descent, the Christian who denies it will persist in denying it as he cannot bear for it to be true. That attitude is, after all, the essence of religion.

I am Christian, and I acknowledge it.

Rockstone: "But even with all of that, she probably wouldn't have lived."

I presume this is your expert medical opinion....?

Rockstone: "I am a Christian, and I acknowledge it."

If you wanna pay for my plane ticket I can come over and give you a pat on the back.

Rockstone: CrankMyBlueSax: Rockstone: Its confusing, I know- but read up on Transubstantiation if you want to know more.

Yeah, I dunno. When it comes to magic, JK Rowling is a lot more fun to read.

Except, you know- transubstantiation is not magic.

HAHAHAHAHA No no not at all. Its nothing like magic. Turning wine to blood and bread to flesh its totally scientific and stuff.

Rockstone: Zamboro: Rockstone: I have reviewed your link and I see nothing miraculous. While rabies is typically lethal, so is AIDs, and yet it has been discovered recently that there exist a handful of individuals worldwide with an immunity. That's how we have historically overcome diseases; large portions of the global population died out and those with an immunity survived to spread their genes to future generations.

I also specified that your example should not include anyone who received medical care:

The Article: "In a desperate attempt to save her, Wisconsin doctors intentionally put her in a coma and gave her a slew of antiviral drugs and other medications to prevent a cascade of events that causes nerve cells to die. She spent two months in intensive care before returning home on New Year's Day, 2005."

But even with all of that, she probably wouldn't have lived.

The fact that sometimes people who are very ill get well again is evidence that sometimes people who are very ill get well again. I see no evidentiary link to anything else here. Of course, you can construe any fact as evidence of anything you wish - but if you can't establish any positive link between the two, it's only "evidence" in your own mind.

Zamboro: I think physicists presently studying the mechanism by which the big bang occurred might have something authoritative to say about a god alleged to have created the universe.

Likes the cut of your jib:

t3knomanser: Mr.Z: My belief is... it is a chair. What exactly is a chair anyway? What makes it a 'chair'? Is it because I sit on it?

My argument would be: it exists as a chair because you perceive it as a chair. Your brain is evolved to organize the world in terms of objects. Objects exist, not in the world, but in your brain. The collection of matter you refer to as a chair isn't a chair, except insofar as you perceive it that way. It's just a blob of matter.

No, that would be Kant's argument, not yours. ;)

CygnusDarius: Cthulhu Theory: Pshhhh everyone knows all the religions are wrong! God is WATER people! Think about it! It gives us life!

The holy trinity existing as one supreme entity? 2 Hydrogen atoms (The holy ghost, and the father) and 1 oxygen (the son - which is a byprodct of fusion reactions in the sun, which existed after hydrogen, which, notably, the son was theorized 200 yrs after Jesus' time) all composing the singular molecule that makes life as we know it possible. Water!

Now keep in mind the concepts of god were theorized long before the idea that the world was round or that the earth revolved around the sun let alone that it was simply a giant ball of burning gas.

In the beginning there was "god" - in the beginning there was water.

God works in "mysterious ways" - the physics of water is still something only vaguely understood.

You can feel his spirit, but you can't see god - You can touch water but pure water is clear and if something is truly clear then you can't really see it now can you? And for those of you about to argue that pure water is blue, it takes a significantly large amount of water to produce blue, consider your interactions with water on a day to day basis. The water you drink is clear in your glass, the water that comes out of your shower and faucets is clear. The only reason you can even see it is because it's directly interacting with the things around it like air (which incidentally carries water in it).

God is in us - about 70% of the bodies cells are made of H2O (which should be similar to the single-celled organism that science theorized was the start of life as we know it).

But God is perfect! - If you believe this then you haven't read the bible. Also, even drinkably "pure" (synonymous for perfect) water has contaminants.

God is about peace - Water always follows the path of least resistance

God is vengeful - Hurricane Katrina anyone? What happened to the levies? What happened to that New Orleans? Anyone recall that tidal wave in the indian ocean? Yeah, the water was disturbed and wreaked havoc in response.

God is omnipotent - Water can cut steel, shape stone, give life, provide energy and destroy. I'd say that covers a lot of the bases of omnipotence.

Omnipresence? Yeah water is found all over the solar system and traces of water are found throughout our galaxy.

Should I go on?

So... Does that mean God is in the Beer?.

/Communion time!

Why yes, yes it does! Sweet delicious God!

Also it means that "he's" in your ... how to put this delicately so as not to offend... "he" is also in anything you've put in the toilet as a byproduct of your various bodily functions.

/hopes that was roundabout but descriptive enough

Robert Anton Wilson - Maybe Logic

//check it out
///just because

Cthulhu Theory: Why yes, yes it does! Sweet delicious God!

Also it means that "he's" in your ... how to put this delicately so as not to offend... "he" is also in anything you've put in the toilet as a byproduct of your various bodily functions.

/hopes that was roundabout but descriptive enough

Well that makes 'holy shiat' more interesting.

krambrain: Robert Anton Wilson - Maybe Logic

//check it out
///just because

Maybe.

Rockstone: Not if I can avoid it.

i'll wait until the thread dies a bit

/after the cabal runs its cycle

Rockstone: You can trace the origin of products from the industrial factory in China to the USA- when you do that, you disprove Santa's existence.

Santa has his elves put those stickers on to confuse people. He doesn't want nosy kids poking around where they don't belong.

abb3w: Would you like a balloon as well?

I'd like one! and a basket of apples...


[clippy]

(b) As an inference...

Rockstone: and some stuff in science that will always contradict what we know is fact

I don't suppose you could provide an example of that, could you?

I drunk what: [clippy]

(b) As an inference...

Agnostics are not uncertain of their opinion on whether God exists, they are certain that neither you nor I has any way of knowing the answer to that question in the first place, so fark it, there's nothing wrong with a good old honest "I don't know." They are, in fact, quite certain that "I don't know" is the best answer, since neither side can prove or disprove the other. Most agnostics lean one way or the other, but they do not feel a need to stamp that opinion with false certainty.

Certainty in an unknowable answer may be comforting, but it's not sane, and it's really farking annoying.

Zamboro: [random quote picked to make a point]

there is a reason why most farker's quotes appear blue

/link your farkin' quotes!!!1!
//scrolls to find quote
///*scroll scroll*
// -.-

erikike: Rockstone: CrankMyBlueSax: Rockstone: Its confusing, I know- but read up on Transubstantiation if you want to know more.

Yeah, I dunno. When it comes to magic, JK Rowling is a lot more fun to read.

Except, you know- transubstantiation is not magic.

HAHAHAHAHA No no not at all. Its nothing like magic. Turning wine to blood and bread to flesh its totally scientific and stuff.

This reminds me of when I was a kid and lived on an Army base. There was just the one chapel that all the denominations shared.

Well there was this pantry that was full of these great crackers. I eat them all the time. The were yummy and just melted in your mouth.
It wasn't until years later that I learned that they were Catholic communion wafers.