If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Washington Post)   Those billions in taxpayer dollars the government "invested" in GM? We're as likely to get it back as a Chevy Cobalt is to make it to 100,000 miles   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 524
    More: Obvious  
•       •       •

2470 clicks; posted to Politics » on 30 Jun 2009 at 12:02 PM (5 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



524 Comments   (+0 »)
   

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | » | Last | Show all
 
2009-06-30 09:40:59 AM
Meh, Debt Securities holders will get paid, that much I know. I'm just waiting for that payday now.
 
2009-06-30 09:41:23 AM
The government specializes in wasting taxpayer money, you thought the legislature would make a great investment bank too? My god we do deserve the government we have..
 
2009-06-30 09:42:26 AM
Color me shocked.
 
2009-06-30 09:46:28 AM
Those Transformers don't pay for themselves.
 
2009-06-30 09:48:04 AM
So, very likely?
 
Cog
2009-06-30 09:48:27 AM
Well, DUH.
 
2009-06-30 09:48:33 AM
Gee. No shiat?
 
2009-06-30 09:57:25 AM
That's OK. With all the oil money we've been getting out of Iraq to pay back the war effort, this doesn't represent too significant a sum.
 
2009-06-30 10:00:20 AM
Pocket Ninja: With all the oil money we've been getting out of Iraq to pay back the war effort, this doesn't represent too significant a sum.

Anything to deflect from the 400 turd in the middle of the room eh?
 
2009-06-30 10:13:20 AM
Dancin_In_Anson: Pocket Ninja: With all the oil money we've been getting out of Iraq to pay back the war effort, this doesn't represent too significant a sum.

Anything to deflect from the 400 turd in the middle of the room eh?


You really should recalibrate your sarcasm detector.
 
2009-06-30 10:15:43 AM
Dancin_In_Anson: Anything to deflect from the 400 turd in the middle of the room eh?

Really? You're going to pounce on me for deflecting an issue?

Really?
 
2009-06-30 10:16:30 AM
Well, sure, if you are investing in money. Congress is investing in votes.

/"This is an investment in our future. And by 'our' future, I mean 'my' future..."
 
2009-06-30 10:22:06 AM
Pocket Ninja: You're going to pounce on me for deflecting an issue?

I didn't see anyone else bring up Iraq in a thread about General Motors.
 
2009-06-30 10:22:22 AM
Is anyone else getting tired of the 'sky is falling' whining yet? Geez people, so far NONE of the terrible terrible things that are supposed to happen have come true. And making predictions 5-10 years out is sheer stupidity, way too many variables can change in that time. So hows about we give it all a little time, and then you can all start your wailing and gnashing of teeth?
 
2009-06-30 10:26:34 AM
Dancin_In_Anson: I didn't see anyone else bring up Iraq in a thread about General Motors.

I was more reflecting on your dismay at someone deflecting a thread from its original topic, a skill that I am constantly refining and honing based on observing your variety of thread performances.
 
2009-06-30 10:31:34 AM
It was never about rebuilding GM or keeping employment numbers low. It was about rewarding your union mob-bosses and moving one step closer to a single-party system.
 
2009-06-30 10:33:21 AM
Nemo's Brother: It was never about rebuilding GM or keeping employment numbers low. It was about rewarding your union mob-bosses and moving one step closer to a single-party system.

OBAMANATION! OBAMANATION! OBAMANATION!
 
2009-06-30 10:35:04 AM
Pocket Ninja: I was more reflecting on your dismay at someone deflecting a thread from its original topic, a skill that I am constantly refining and honing based on observing your variety of thread performances.

I see. So what do you think about the pissing of a few hundred billion dollars down the GM rathole?
 
2009-06-30 10:37:39 AM
Dancin_In_Anson: I see. So what do you think about the pissing of a few hundred billion dollars down the GM rathole?

I believe we could have set up a good communist healthcare system with that much money.
 
2009-06-30 10:40:48 AM
Even at its recent 2000 peak, GM's stock was worth only $56 billion.

the whole point of bankruptcy was to retool the company so it doesn't have the same cost structure and isn't the same company it was in 2000, so that historical restriction isn't really applicable...

The company's own internal analysis, prepared by Evercore Partners and presented to the company's board on May 31, shows how the government could recover its investment. According to that presentation, the equity value of the company in 2012 will range from $59 billion to $77 billion. If the stock value rises to the high end of that range, the U.S. could recover all of its investment.

while i would want to look at their assumptions and discount for the inherent bias of an internal analysis, this doesn't seem out of the realm of possibilties.
 
2009-06-30 10:46:34 AM
Dancin_In_Anson: I see. So what do you think about the pissing of a few hundred billion dollars down the GM rathole?

I think about it in much the same way that I view pissing a few hundred billion dollars down the Iraq rathole.

HA! I'M UNSTOPPABLE.
 
2009-06-30 10:49:48 AM
Nemo's Brother: It was never about rebuilding GM or keeping employment numbers low. It was about rewarding your union mob-bosses and moving one step closer to a single-party system.

actually, it was about propping up GM for a few years so that it can fail at a more opportune time for the economy. if it had failed this year, the economy would have been in shock and besides the actual fiscal impacts of it, people would have been very frightened. Think fo the money as investments in keeping the economy stable, not in GM.
 
2009-06-30 10:52:00 AM
Katie98_KT: actually, it was about propping up GM for a few years so that it can fail at a more opportune time for the economy. if it had failed this year, the economy would have been in shock and besides the actual fiscal impacts of it, people would have been very frightened. Think fo the money as investments in keeping the economy stable, not in GM.

that sounds much less nefarious and a lot more boring than "kickbacks to union mob bosses and paving the way for an obama dictatorship." i'm going with nemo's brother on this one.
 
2009-06-30 10:58:54 AM
Katie98_KT: if it had failed this year, the economy would have been in shock and besides the actual fiscal impacts of it, people would have been very frightened.

It did fail this year.

And, companies as big as GM never just dry up and go away, leaving empty factories.

With the way bankruptcy laws are written in our country, they can pretty much keep on trucking right along with day-to-day operations.

The big hit is in the stock. For the average person, with a well-diversified portfolio, GM stock going to zero isn't going to be much of a blip on their retirement radar. The people who are going to take hits are a few big investors.

$300B of taxpayer money isn't worth spending just to keep a few billionaires from losing their fortunes.
 
2009-06-30 11:03:19 AM
SchlingFocker: And, companies as big as GM never just dry up and go away, leaving empty factories.

actually, they do.
 
2009-06-30 11:03:38 AM
Pocket Ninja: I think about it in much the same way that I view pissing a few hundred billion dollars down the Iraq rathole.

So you think Obama screwed the pooch much like Bush. I'm cool with that.
 
2009-06-30 11:07:58 AM
Katie98_KT: actually, they do.

When, in the last 50 years, has a company the size of GM just gone away, with all of their facilities being left to the cockroaches?
 
2009-06-30 11:08:14 AM
SchlingFocker: With the way bankruptcy laws are written in our country, they can pretty much keep on trucking right along with day-to-day operations.

without government stepping in, this bankruptcy gets real messy real quick. suppliers stop sending parts, the various creditors fight over a reorganization plan, and the company probably never (or at the very least, not without a long, difficult road) re-emerges as a viable company. either way a massive amount of people lose their jobs at a very inopportune time. thanks to the government taking the reigns (and i'm not going to argue about the ideological pros and cons of this) it was a smooth bankruptcy and the company has a great opportunity to compete again, and the government will likely recover most, if not all of its money.
 
2009-06-30 11:11:02 AM
thomps: it was a smooth bankruptcy and the company has a great opportunity to compete again

It's not really competition when the government is there with unlimited funding to bail you out, is it?

GM had their chance to compete. They failed. Ford and the Jap companies succeeded.
 
2009-06-30 11:13:18 AM
Dancin_In_Anson: So you think Obama screwed the pooch much like Bush.

Well, possibly. Although I think that Obama's pooch-screwing is more along the lines of a minor dalliance with a feisty poodle, the sort of thing where he was left in charge of this poorly trained dog that started to hump his leg and he perhaps allowed that to go on a little too long and the dog got overly excited and before Obama could extricate himself there was poodle spunk all over his trousers and the lingering shame that comes from knowing you didn't put a stop to a bad situation soon enough. Whereas I view Bush's pooch-screwing more as a torrid, spit-swapping affair, the sort of thing that involves slathered peanut butter and assistants to hoist the tail and presidential drool matting the dog's shoulder fur. It's more like masturbating the pooch versus giving it a full, rollicking fark.
 
2009-06-30 11:13:44 AM
So Democrats like to blow money on American institutions and Republicans like to blow money on killing foreigners.

Everybody's got a hobby.
 
2009-06-30 11:16:12 AM
SchlingFocker: Katie98_KT: actually, they do.

When, in the last 50 years, has a company the size of GM just gone away, with all of their facilities being left to the cockroaches?


Business Week (new window)

"The average life expectancy of a multinational corporation-Fortune 500 or its equivalent-is between 40 and 50 years. This figure is based on most surveys of corporate births and deaths. A full one-third of the companies listed in the 1970 Fortune 500, for instance, had vanished by 1983-acquired, merged, or broken to pieces"


I can't tell you about the specific facilities, because, yes, they're often retooled- either into another factory or other office space, but this often requires different jobs, different skills.
 
2009-06-30 11:17:23 AM
I have a co-worker that has a Cobalt with over 100,000 miles.
Just sayin'
 
2009-06-30 11:21:31 AM
Well no shiat.

The money we lent them could is greater than 20 of their best years of profit added together.

It's not like they are going to give us 100% of their profits forever..
 
2009-06-30 11:24:34 AM
thomps: According to that presentation, the equity value of the company in 2012 will range from $59 billion to $77 billion. If the stock value rises to the high end of that range, the U.S. could recover all of its investment.

And the Iraq war will only cost 1.9 billion
 
2009-06-30 11:26:27 AM
Katie98_KT: A full one-third of the companies listed in the 1970 Fortune 500, for instance, had vanished by 1983-acquired, merged, or broken to pieces"

The bolded phrase is the key phrase.

Even these smaller companies you speak of didn't just vanish into the wind. They were gobbled up, along with their employees, by other companies.

Huge companies the size of GM don't just disappear, leaving a wasteland of rusted, abandoned facilities.

There was no need for the government to step in and force taxpayers to support GM.
 
2009-06-30 11:30:18 AM
Pocket Ninja: Dancin_In_Anson: So you think Obama screwed the pooch much like Bush.

Well, possibly. Although I think that Obama's pooch-screwing is more along the lines of a minor dalliance with a feisty poodle, the sort of thing where he was left in charge of this poorly trained dog that started to hump his leg and he perhaps allowed that to go on a little too long and the dog got overly excited and before Obama could extricate himself there was poodle spunk all over his trousers and the lingering shame that comes from knowing you didn't put a stop to a bad situation soon enough. Whereas I view Bush's pooch-screwing more as a torrid, spit-swapping affair, the sort of thing that involves slathered peanut butter and assistants to hoist the tail and presidential drool matting the dog's shoulder fur. It's more like masturbating the pooch versus giving it a full, rollicking fark.


I'll be in my bunk.
 
2009-06-30 11:31:59 AM
SchlingFocker: Even these smaller companies you speak of didn't just vanish into the wind. They were gobbled up, along with their employees, by other companies.

Huge companies the size of GM don't just disappear, leaving a wasteland of rusted, abandoned facilities.


you're right, your personal opinions have completely convinced me contrary to facts. please, continue to enlighten us.

or in other words, how about some facts here. Show me the list of companies from 1959, and show me where the people who worked for them are working now, and how they're doing the same job.
 
2009-06-30 11:33:48 AM
It seems disingenuous not to factor in the loss of tax revenue that would occur if GM failed completely. You'd have tens of thousands of workers and suppliers that would no longer be paying income taxes.

Besides, if we own 60% of GM, we can always give ourselves an $80 billion performance bonus at the end of the year.
 
2009-06-30 11:36:39 AM
Katie98_KT: SchlingFocker: Even these smaller companies you speak of didn't just vanish into the wind. They were gobbled up, along with their employees, by other companies.

Huge companies the size of GM don't just disappear, leaving a wasteland of rusted, abandoned facilities.

you're right, your personal opinions have completely convinced me contrary to facts. please, continue to enlighten us.

or in other words, how about some facts here. Show me the list of companies from 1959, and show me where the people who worked for them are working now, and how they're doing the same job.


Do you really believe that the vast economic resources that GM uses and distributes would simply vanish? GM still commands something on the order of 20 percent of domestic auto sales in the US. That means one out of five new vehicles sold in this country is a GM car. Seeing as how I don't see the American public suddenly dropping it's demand for new cars by one fifth, it's just common sense from an economic standpoint that someone will want to fill that void, and will need parts, labor, facilities, distribution and buyers. Will the transition be painless? No, of course not. But what good in the end does it do any of us to artificially prop up what is obviously a failed business model?
 
2009-06-30 11:38:13 AM
SchlingFocker: Huge companies the size of GM don't just disappear, leaving a wasteland of rusted, abandoned facilities.

look, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here that you live in an area where this DOESN'T happen. What I can tell you is that I could drive you around the area I grew up in and point out abandoned factories, I could show you the town my grandparents live in and point out a business my grandmother used to shop from which no longer exists and their factory is empty, downtown baltimore has similar buildings. Sometimes the buildings aren't even converted into housing or office space, they just sit there.
 
2009-06-30 11:39:36 AM
Eddie Adams from Torrance: It seems disingenuous not to factor in the loss of tax revenue that would occur if GM failed completely. You'd have tens of thousands of workers and suppliers that would no longer be paying income taxes.

Besides, if we own 60% of GM, we can always give ourselves an $80 billion performance bonus at the end of the year.


what I find completely impossible to understand is how Obama expects to get the auto manufacturing sector back on it's feet while raising prices on energy production and use at the same time. If you want to build factories, we should be making it easier to operate them, not more difficult.
 
2009-06-30 11:39:59 AM
Nabb1: it's just common sense from an economic standpoint that someone will want to fill that void, and will need parts, labor, facilities, distribution and buyers. Will the transition be painless? No, of course not. But what good in the end does it do any of us to artificially prop up what is obviously a failed business model?

TEMPORARILY prop it up. and its the transition that's painful. And no, ALL of their factories are not going to disappear, but maybe 25% will. maybe more. all I was saying was that for the temporary future it was worth it to prop up GM so that it failed at a later date, when people/investors weren't so anxious about th economy.
 
2009-06-30 11:40:54 AM
SchlingFocker: Huge companies the size of GM don't just disappear, leaving a wasteland of rusted, abandoned facilities.

You've never been to Pennsylvania, have you?
 
2009-06-30 11:41:22 AM
Katie98_KT: Show me the list of companies from 1959, and show me where the people who worked for them are working now, and how they're doing the same job.

I'll do that once you answer my original question and are able to show me where a company the size of GM simply just folded up and left all their facilities and equipment to rust in the past 50 years.
 
2009-06-30 11:42:05 AM
Pocket Ninja: Dancin_In_Anson: So you think Obama screwed the pooch much like Bush.

Well, possibly. Although I think that Obama's pooch-screwing is more along the lines of a minor dalliance with a feisty poodle, the sort of thing where he was left in charge of this poorly trained dog that started to hump his leg and he perhaps allowed that to go on a little too long and the dog got overly excited and before Obama could extricate himself there was poodle spunk all over his trousers and the lingering shame that comes from knowing you didn't put a stop to a bad situation soon enough. Whereas I view Bush's pooch-screwing more as a torrid, spit-swapping affair, the sort of thing that involves slathered peanut butter and assistants to hoist the tail and presidential drool matting the dog's shoulder fur. It's more like masturbating the pooch versus giving it a full, rollicking fark.


You, sir, are a goddamn genius.
 
2009-06-30 11:43:54 AM
SchlingFocker: Katie98_KT: Show me the list of companies from 1959, and show me where the people who worked for them are working now, and how they're doing the same job.

I'll do that once you answer my original question and are able to show me where a company the size of GM simply just folded up and left all their facilities and equipment to rust in the past 50 years.


walk around Pittsburgh some time, you'll see evidence of all those steel manufacturing firms that just up and blew away in the wind. Coal mines too, but that's a bit more difficult to actually SEE though, since those abandoned shafts are all underground.
 
2009-06-30 11:44:36 AM
Katie98_KT: What I can tell you is that I could drive you around the area I grew up in and point out abandoned factories, I could show you the town my grandparents live in and point out a business my grandmother used to shop from which no longer exists

Those companies weren't anywhere CLOSE to the size of GM.

When you're as big as GM, you don't just blow off into the wind if you declare bankruptcy. The market share you held is attractive to LOTS of companies that have more efficient business models. They will step in, take over your facilities, and keep your employees on those production lines.


Weaver95: You've never been to Pennsylvania, have you?

None of those companies were the size of GM.
 
2009-06-30 11:45:33 AM
SchlingFocker: None of those companies were the size of GM.

wtf? YES THEY WERE.
 
2009-06-30 11:46:08 AM
SchlingFocker: None of those companies were the size of GM.

Depends on how you look at it. Where do you think GM got all the steel for their products.

All gone now though.
 
Displayed 50 of 524 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | » | Last | Show all



This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report