Steve Zodiac: But I guess you could say he was ethical about the deal: He did send Iran the anti-aircraft and anti-tank missiles he had secretly promised.

Umm, you do realize that Carter is the one who arranged to have England free up the 1.4 Billion dollars in frozen Iranian assets that allowed the Hostages to be freed right? That Carter was expecting and hoping they would be free before Reagans inauguration; they had some problems with that but got it done with some time to spare. The Iranians however purposefully embarrassed him by waiting until after Reagan was sworn in.

Not sure where people get the notion that Reagan secretly bought the Iranians off; it didn't happen that way.

CanisNoir: It's funny because Russia really hasn't changed in the sense that they stand to profit the most from internal struggle in Iran.

Yeah , so far from what I culled from assorted news articles on world opinion on the going-ons over there - that Russia remained conspicuously silent

at80eighty: Lusiphur: It seems fairly clear that these are Iranian citizens working for the british embassy.

I'm going to agree for now , based on "People with a connection to the UK have been arrested all week." - lil ambivalent , but I suppose thats good enough


BBC (new window) says they were locals.

zorlack7: what_now: zorlack7:

So...you solution to help the Iranian people is to...kill them all?

No, my solution requires that one is truly willing to kill them all. It also requires that the government being intimidated knows you are truly willing to do it. It might need to be done to one country, but after that, peace in the middle east would be attained after thousands of years. The global death rate of all people is 100%, so it would not change the numbers in the long run.

If all these people understand is senseless brutality, show them that we are capable and willing to perform brutality on a scale they cannot imagine, the fear of death will kick in and take care of the rest.

I knew it. The real outrage amongst Republicans and rednecks isn't caused by the abuse and murder of Iranians. It's caused by someone else doing it! Those are our Iranians to murder, goddamnit!

They took our Jobs Frags!

brigid_fitch: But I doubt Brown will ask--he knows we're spread too thinly as it is. And the UK has plenty of other allies.

I dunno about that anymore. We're withdrawing from all major Iraqi cities and that will free up a whole lot of resources that could be diverted if necessary. We're not as thin as we were when in the thick of it in both Iraq and Afghanistan. (Remember Afghanistan is a NATO led thing and is the "moral" war so we have some help there as well.)

Biological Ali: ObscureNameHere: Biological Ali:
That said, I think your plan may also achieve a similarly devastating effect - perhaps even more so. The only way to find out is to try them both.

So, I'll round up the gays and you go out and get the black women.

/that last part didn't quite come out right

Win for me! Oh, and to help you out, all of the gays are now conveniently located in downtown Toronto today (Pride Parade).

Slaxl: If Brown asks Obama for help I hope it's met with public refusal

which kinda makes Blair's puppydog following of W, just all the more surreal

what_now: Slaxl: Which is why Iran hates us more, and probably always has done.

I'm confused about the pronouns...you're British? Or you're from the US and saying Iran hates the US more?

Yeah, I'm British, Iran hates me, personally. I'm just no good at making new friends :(

GreenSeaDrop: so to sum up, is this mostly right?

1)PK arrested and/or current tweets from same/sim accounts are diff enough to prob. be diff person

2)Iran govt arrested 8 British staff

3)rumors of big protests for monday and that Pres A is going to be sworn in on monday

4)Mousavi rejects Guardian Council's decision & has not backed down.

5)Sunday protest at imporant mosque.

6)nighttime chants continued

/what else?

7) Achmed's Persian Buffet is out of shawarma.

got it Delores De Syn , thanks

what_now: I'm confused about the pronouns...you're British? Or you're from the US and saying Iran hates the US more?

clicking profiles is a helpful thing sometimes :p

SockMonkeyHolocaust: wolvernova: I'm sorry, but if you don't think they have kicked it up about a notch or ten in the past weeks, you need to catch up on your news.

No, they haven't. Iran has a history of not tolerating dissent but you would have to actually know anything about the country to know that. Congrats on being able to find Iran on a map. I guess.

Child, you're unlikely to know anything about Iran that I do not know. The "they've always been doing this" is not only just partially true, but it takes away from my point that now the world is watching. The people on Iran are capturing it all and leaking it to the internets, and the world can be witness to the regime's crimes.

what_now: NastyMut6r: But, what do you think the threshold should be for intervention on our part?

In Iran? There's no way we can or should get involved while the current leaders are in charge. If we have a refugee problem in Iraq or Afghanistan? We should deal with it in those countries. I don't want a single US boot on Persian soil.

Interesting.

On that last statement, yeah, that's already happened. We used to chase "bad guys" across borders all the time in Iraq. Turkey was the only country that didn't have much of an issue with it, so they were the only one's that knew about we informed. :)

Slaxl: If it had to be done, I'm sure Britain could manage alone if needs be.

IMHO there are two countries that should never wonder about aid from the US and that's Britain and Canada. Those are our two closest allies and have been for a while. If Brown asks for help and we don't give it to him, I would be ashamed of our President for refusing to help a close friend. Grumble about it if you want but damnit, you help your friends. (Because if it comes to that point, being neutral is going to do nothing but make the job harder for the Brits)

/Just my opinion, but I do have lots of affection for those two countries.
//Should probably have added Australia to that as well now that I think about it; I just don't see them over shadowing Britain in all this :)

CanisNoir: I mean think about it, even before the Election, Obama signaled that he was ready to sit down with the current Regime and talk; so it's not like the *US* benefits from this; a fifth grader could have told you any internal unrest would be blamed on the West regardless of what we did, which as we can see, only hampers nuclear negotiations. So yea, this is helping Russia far more than it is us.


Good point. In some respects, Ahmadi reminds me of Greece's former PM, Papandreou. He used to play both sides (USA and USSR) against each other for his own benefit.

at80eighty: Slaxl: If Brown asks Obama for help I hope it's met with public refusal

which kinda makes Blair's puppydog following of W, just all the more surreal

They both shared the same ideas about how to go about destroying any stability in the world. It was probably embarrassing for Blair, that he did share the same views so went along with the plans, probably maybe even suggested a fair portion of it, but gets called a puppy dog.

Anyway, Obama and Bush couldn't be more different when it comes to the middle east (or so it seems from what I have managed to glean from the news), Obama probably has a low opinion of the British because of Blair's toadying toward Bush, and also because of his Kenyan ancestry and Obama is cool, he's riding a wave of popularity at the moment, and Brown has leprosy.

Aboleth: You know if their back is to the wall, Ahmadouchebag might want to provoke the UK or the US or a western coalition into attacking so he can say, "INVADERS! OH NOES! TO ME, EVERYONE, SO WE CAN FORM VOLTRON!"

And in 2 weeks everyone'd forgotten about Neda.

That's pretty much what I've been thinking. Everyone is talking about how stupid it was to rig the election so clumsily, when stating A-Jad had won by 53% would have been much more believable. But what if Khamenei was feeling paranoid about Rafsanjani and others, and decided that what Iran needed was a lil boogeyman boost to unite the country, only it backfired on him?

TheDokta: zorlack7: In my world, there would probably be a bit of death at first, but peace after that. These people fear their god so much it is amazing, and will follow anything they construe to be their gods instructions. I would just make them fear me more than they fear their god, and will actually be around to give non batshiat crazy instructions.

Right, because if there's one thing history has demonstrated, it's that societies built on a foundation of oppression and fear of genocide are stable, productive and peaceful.

Maybe not peaceful but when the genocide is pointed at someone who isn't your population it works quite well. Remember they did a Star Trek where a guy Nazified a planet?


/My first Godwin
//Tastes kinda burnt...

wolvernova: zorlack7: at80eighty: zorlack7: If they do not comply, glass the place.

Problem solved either way.

it's a gobsmacking wonder you aren't part of the admin's foreign policy team

They rejected my application. I don't approve of the "sternly worded letter" approach to handling foreign relations with ultra oppressive religious zealots.

In my world, there would probably be a bit of death at first, but peace after that. These people fear their god so much it is amazing, and will follow anything they construe to be their gods instructions. I would just make them fear me more than they fear their god, and will actually be around to give non batshiat crazy instructions.

Please... stop thinking, stop typing. Your case of stupid might infect the entire FARK community.

You are confusing a birth defect with a communicable disease.

Deagan Herumor: Remember they did a Star Trek where a guy Nazified a planet?

You know who else tried to Nazify a planet? Mmm hmm. That's right.

DO NOT WANT Poster Girl: Epidemic of dumb.

Pandumbic?

at80eighty: Yeah , so far from what I culled from assorted news articles on world opinion on the going-ons over there - that Russia remained conspicuously silent

Bingo.

Mr. Putin has a great deal riding on the outcome in Iran. With the Russian economy teetering, he needs a steep increase in oil prices to stave off the collapse of his government. So he has been working to increase tension in the Middle East and now sees the Iranian crisis as potentially helpful - if Ahmadinejad comes out on top.

The Outer Russia (new window)

Biological ALi: Pandumbic?

You win.

what_now: I'm confused about the pronouns...you're British? Or you're from the US and saying Iran hates the US more?

The British Empire has been far more involved in meddling in the Middle East than the US and they know it - they dislike the Brit's more.

Interesting

The Brits probably have their weakest government for thirty years - a very weak left-wing government, and so perhaps there are quite meaningful commonalities to explore with Carter - although this is very different to the hostage taking and is far, far less serious

In and of itself this is essentially a non-event. What gives it a bit more currency is that Iran expelled a couple of UK diplomats and the UK expelled a couple of Iranian diplomats. The UK apparently thought this tit-for-tat move gave them the upper hand and showed the Iranians they were not to be messed with, and would put an end to the situation. Who knows why they thought this. The essential point is that this means it is the Brits' move again

Nevertheless, this distraction gives the British government an opportunity to look strong, or, perhaps only to highlight their weakness

It is interesting how Britain has become the main focus. Britain is currently somewhere between America and Europe, so can potentially unite or accentuate a division between the two - something I'm sure the Chinese and Russians would like to explore

give me doughnuts: GreenSeaDrop: so to sum up, is this mostly right?
[snip]

/what else?

7) Achmed's Persian Buffet is out of shawarma.

what shawarma might look like


/hot & tasty!

brigid_fitch: He's right about Brown not being able to afford to ask for help. If he does, he'll appear even weaker than the British already think he is. If he's going to save his job, he has to handle this alone.

That and they aren't British Citizens so it's not exactly a Hostage Situation that would require something as drastic as physical intervention. I would expect the Rhetoric to increase tremendously but not much more.

Slaxl: what_now: Slaxl: Which is why Iran hates us more, and probably always has done.

I'm confused about the pronouns...you're British? Or you're from the US and saying Iran hates the US more?

Yeah, I'm British, Iran hates me, personally. I'm just no good at making new friends :(

Well, maybe you should try a little American invention called a "toothbrush".
(And yes, it was invented in America - in Alabama. Anywhere else, and they'd have called it a "teethbrush")

I found this interesting:

White House using Sunday talk shows to ratchet up criticism of Iran: Axelrod calls Ahmadinejad comments "bloviations" #iranelectionless than a minute ago from we

Anybody catch this?

Somacandra: Slaxl: Together with zombie Reagan.

Before or after he sells zombie weapons to the Iranian government?

Preferably the Republican romanticised ideal of him, in zombie form plus lots of guns. We don't have to be too realistic when talking about zombie Reagan.

Sarah Palin: Interesting

The Brits probably have their weakest government for thirty years - a very weak left-wing government, and so perhaps there are quite meaningful commonalities to explore with Carter - although this is very different to the hostage taking and is far, far less serious

In and of itself this is essentially a non-event. What gives it a bit more currency is that Iran expelled a couple of UK diplomats and the UK expelled a couple of Iranian diplomats. The UK apparently thought this tit-for-tat move gave them the upper hand and showed the Iranians they were not to be messed with, and would put an end to the situation. Who knows why they thought this. The essential point is that this means it is the Brits' move again

Nevertheless, this distraction gives the British government an opportunity to look strong, or, perhaps only to highlight their weakness

It is interesting how Britain has become the main focus. Britain is currently somewhere between America and Europe, so can potentially unite or accentuate a division between the two - something I'm sure the Chinese and Russians would like to explore

I don't think the diplomatic tit-for-tat was anything other than a formality, if you expel diplomats, yours get expelled, it's how it's done.

You're right about the weak government though, there's so much going on at home that it's not going to be easy for Brown to muster any significant support for any serious measures, so will have to resort to talking, which I think as you say will highlight the weakness, which is funny because resorting to violent actions is what Iran wants and what we shouldn't do. So perhaps he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

zorlack7: No, my solution requires that one is truly willing to kill them all. It also requires that the government being intimidated knows you are truly willing to do it. It might need to be done to one country, but after that, peace in the middle east would be attained after thousands of years. The global death rate of all people is 100%, so it would not change the numbers in the long run.

If all these people understand is senseless brutality, show them that we are capable and willing to perform brutality on a scale they cannot imagine, the fear of death will kick in and take care of the rest.

It's scary that you think that killing people brutally is the only way to free them from their brutal, murderous oppressors.

OneTimed: I hope I don't sound ignorant, but isn't this getting real close to being an act of war?

I thought farking with a country's embassy was by default an act of war...

wendybelle: But what if Khamenei was feeling paranoid about Rafsanjani and others, and decided that what Iran needed was a lil boogeyman boost to unite the country, only it backfired on him?

Or, it didn't occur to them that the people would riot the way they did and wanted Ahmadinijad to have a mandate. This theory makes the most sense to me. Khomeini always supported Ahmadinijad, always knew he was going to win. So you have tons of people vote and viola he now has a mandate.

This is the first time in 30 years that the citizens have taken to the streets this way and I have a feeling that Khomeini just didn't see that coming.

Crabs_Can_Polevault: On the bright side, it's not exactly a "hostage crisis" this time around. It's just an arrest...

...by the same people that held the hostages last time.

Maybe we should call it a "hostage crisis with the legitimacy of government"?

Hey, Craps, an uncomfortable question for you: at what point does a government become illegitimate? Think a bit about that before you rattle off one of the standard memes. What makes a government - any government - legitimate?

Inescapable Future of Humanity: It's scary that you think that killing people brutally is the only way to free them from their brutal, murderous oppressors.

Wow, so we send in Zombie Reagan *AND* Zombie Sherman?!? ;P