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(Yahoo)   Citigroup to raise salaries by up to 50% in an attempt to dodge legislation imposing caps on bonuses. EVERYBODY PUNDIT   (finance.yahoo.com ) divider line
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5096 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Jun 2009 at 2:57 AM (7 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2009-06-24 08:43:26 PM  
I was outraged, then baffled, then confused, outraged again, now I am sort of desensitized to this stuff. Here's my wallet, I quit.
 
2009-06-24 09:07:56 PM  
brandtjen.files.wordpress.com
 
2009-06-24 10:23:17 PM  
And people wonder why I loathe capitalism so much.
 
2009-06-24 11:44:00 PM  
communistcritic.files.wordpress.com
 
2009-06-24 11:53:59 PM  
Let us hope this means they have the money to pay back their TARP loan.

Still, taxpayers have already made a few billion off Citibank's loan. As long as C keeps paying, let them do whatever they want.
 
2009-06-25 12:06:36 AM  
It isn't any different than people using creative accounting and shelters, all within the law, to dodge taxes. They are just dodging restrictions the feds placed on them for bonus payouts.

These people are experts at taking money and disappearing it. It's what they do. They're good at it.
 
2009-06-25 12:27:05 AM  

eddyatwork: And people wonder why I loathe capitalism so much.


Do you also loathe the woman who gets raped? You're getting mad at the symptom, not the cause. Government intervention IS NOT capitalism.

In a real capitalist economy Citigroup would have gone bankrupt, those people would be looking for new jobs at companies that didn't do the things Citigroup did, and we would not be having this conversation.
 
2009-06-25 01:04:08 AM  
I can't imagine the US Government didn't see this coming. After all, Citibank DID ask if they could pay out bonuses, they were denied.

If they asked about bonuses, I'm reasonably certain that they did ask about raising salaries before they were implemented, and permission was granted.
 
2009-06-25 01:31:37 AM  
I wonder how many Citibank bank tellers will get a 50% raise.
 
2009-06-25 01:31:53 AM  
Crosshair: In a real capitalist economy Citigroup would have gone bankrupt, those people would be looking for new jobs at companies that didn't do the things Citigroup did, and we would not be having this conversation.

In a real capitalist economy, the crash that would have occurred from letting them die would have taken out the money market, frozen day to day operations and completely stopped the process that keeps you eating. I doubt even a 'survivalist' like you had enough supplies to live through a complete economic system reboot. You'd have starved like the vast majority of the country.
 
2009-06-25 03:01:07 AM  

Crosshair: eddyatwork: And people wonder why I loathe capitalism so much.

Do you also loathe the woman who gets raped? You're getting mad at the symptom, not the cause. Government intervention IS NOT capitalism.

In a real capitalist economy Citigroup would have gone bankrupt, those people would be looking for new jobs at companies that didn't do the things Citigroup did, and we would not be having this conversation.


Only in a dream world.
 
2009-06-25 03:08:21 AM  

GAT_00: Crosshair: In a real capitalist economy Citigroup would have gone bankrupt, those people would be looking for new jobs at companies that didn't do the things Citigroup did, and we would not be having this conversation.

In a real capitalist economy, the crash that would have occurred from letting them die would have taken out the money market, frozen day to day operations and completely stopped the process that keeps you eating. I doubt even a 'survivalist' like you had enough supplies to live through a complete economic system reboot. You'd have starved like the vast majority of the country.


In a real capitalist economy, thats the price you pay for sustaining idiocy and delusion in place of reality-based business decisions. Not to mention the lack of the thousands of government distortions, etc.

Remember Nixon setting price levels? As a result, we have "cash back" as a hold-over, just in case prices get frozen again during a sale. When there is a real possibility of bonuses being removed, regular compensation will rise. But I suppose it's just too much to expect regulators to ask the people they want to regulate "What would you do if we did X?".

Back to your regularly scheduled whargharrble about the evils of capitalism.
 
2009-06-25 03:08:57 AM  

eddyatwork: And people wonder why I loathe capitalism so much.


You think this doesn't happen in socialist or communist countries? Instead of banking executives, it's party leaders or government officials.

There is always the privileged class, and there is no economic system devoid of it.
 
2009-06-25 03:12:21 AM  

GAT_00: In a real capitalist economy, the crash that would have occurred from letting them die would have taken out the money market, frozen day to day operations and completely stopped the process that keeps you eating. I doubt even a 'survivalist' like you had enough supplies to live through a complete economic system reboot. You'd have starved like the vast majority of the country.


You say this like it's a bad thing.
 
2009-06-25 03:15:31 AM  

Crosshair: eddyatwork: And people wonder why I loathe capitalism so much.

Do you also loathe the woman who gets raped? You're getting mad at the symptom, not the cause. Government intervention IS NOT capitalism.

In a real capitalist economy Citigroup would have gone bankrupt, those people would be looking for new jobs at companies that didn't do the things Citigroup did, and we would not be having this conversation.


+1 can recommend others to read
 
2009-06-25 03:17:11 AM  

Crosshair: You're getting mad at the symptom, not the cause.


I believe he's mad at the unbridled greed and the ability of executives to constantly find new ways to pay themselves big money at the expense of everyone else. Nuclear_asshat is correct, too. There will always be a privileged class that will try to screw over the rest of us, but it seems like capitalism is the only economic system where you'll see people defending that greed.

/CEOs deserve all that money
//the companies need big salaries and bonuses to attract top executives
///what a load of shiat
 
2009-06-25 03:17:33 AM  
Someday people will actually be remunerated fairly. I have no idea what economic system that will be under.
 
2009-06-25 03:17:57 AM  

nuclear_asshat: There is always the privileged class, and there is no economic system devoid of it.


I have no issue with some people having more privelege.

I just think that, if your company increases its profits, maybe you should reinvest the bulk of that money in the company and the employees, to keep yourselves on top, rather than the top executives stealing it as a bonus for themselves.

It should be comparable. If the CEO is getting a bonus of 1/4 of his pay, so should every employee. It would also help if CEOs weren't paid such ridiculous sums; maybe try investing in the company and your employees, rather than raking as much cash off the top just because you can?

But I know, I'm crazy.
 
2009-06-25 03:18:30 AM  

eddyatwork: And people wonder why I loathe capitalism so much.


aren't you unemployed?

/just asking :P
 
2009-06-25 03:19:31 AM  
as i heard from a stock broker the other day the way wall st. gets paid is through bonuses- thats just how they do it. yes it looks like a lot of money but hey if the majority of people in the world got paid through bonuses nobody would really see this as an issue.
 
2009-06-25 03:20:16 AM  

Baryogenesis: capitalism is the only economic system where you'll see people defending that greed


I should say it's the only system in which greed is defended by people who aren't benefiting from the greed. Clearly, a corrupt system will be defended by those who are making money from it.
 
2009-06-25 03:20:50 AM  

Baryogenesis: /CEOs deserve all that money
//the companies need big salaries and bonuses to attract top executives
///what a load of shiat


Of course, they don't need big salaries to attract top employees at any other level, for some reason.

Plus, it might help if they got executives who actually believed in the company, rather than someone looking for as much money as they can get, and who will drop their current contract the moment they get a better offer.

But again, I'm crazy.
 
2009-06-25 03:22:19 AM  

Baron von Trapp: as i heard from a stock broker the other day the way wall st. gets paid is through bonuses- thats just how they do it. yes it looks like a lot of money but hey if the majority of people in the world got paid through bonuses nobody would really see this as an issue.


I don't think anyone minds bonuses for people doing a good job, rather, it's the idea that a company which needed to be bailed out is giving out bonuses. Clearly, people were not doing a good job.
 
2009-06-25 03:23:01 AM  

Thorak: Baryogenesis: /CEOs deserve all that money
//the companies need big salaries and bonuses to attract top executives
///what a load of shiat

Of course, they don't need big salaries to attract top employees at any other level, for some reason.

Plus, it might help if they got executives who actually believed in the company, rather than someone looking for as much money as they can get, and who will drop their current contract the moment they get a better offer.

But again, I'm crazy.


I like your brand of crazy.
 
2009-06-25 03:28:14 AM  
Corporations have supplanted a single government monarchy with small corporate fiefdoms. I really don't think feudalism is an effective system.
 
2009-06-25 03:33:40 AM  
I think there is a huge misunderstanding of how the bonus system works. If you are a broker starting out, you work for 60-70 hours per week at what is barely a livable wage. My first year I made far less in salary than the janitor.

At the end of the year, you are allocated a "bonus" which can amount to 70% of your earnings for the year. Your bonus is almost always an individual metric, not a group or even company performance.

As a system, it works pretty well. Those who earn, make the money and those who don't quickly find a more suitable job.

Incidentally, if the company does a lot worse, no matter your individual achievements, you'll get a reduced bonus. Also, many of the bonuses are paid in company stock. Often not redeemable for quite some time. If you were working at Bear Stearns, your millions in bonus was gone in days.

Most quit within 18 months and fewer make the hump past their third year. But don't be fooled. As a person working for a large financial house, I made less than all the teachers I knew, and I worked longer hours and didn't get summers off.

The best system I can compare it to is a stripper, if they got an hourly rate and all their tips were paid quarterly or semi-annually.

So before people get up in arms about the bonuses, realize that the vast majority were people like me who went from 28K to 33K.
 
2009-06-25 03:36:16 AM  

Baryogenesis: Baryogenesis: capitalism is the only economic system where you'll see people defending that greed

I should say it's the only system in which greed is defended by people who aren't benefiting from the greed. Clearly, a corrupt system will be defended by those who are making money from it.


cheap labor conservatives rely on the wealthy to continue spending. They benefit. From mowing lawns at the country club to caulking/painting windows and landscaping the summer homes and new additions they rely on the rich spending and keeping their jobs in existence.

/Cheap labor libertarian
 
2009-06-25 03:38:13 AM  
From TFA: Not all employees will be affected equally by the change in compensation, according to the person. Only those who receive a base salary and bonus could see an adjustment. Even then, the adjustments will vary based on an employee's position and current breakdown of pay between base salary and bonus.

In other words, if you are a company executive who already gets paid enough to buy your own private island, you get a raise in salary and a reduction in bonus. Crazy dollars. Mad cheddar. Phat ducats. Thick cheese. Paid.

If you are a low-level accountant, front office receptionist or have any position which earns a salary that is too low to pay the mortgage or rent on a one-bedroom hovel in New York, you get jack sh*t. Doughnut hole. Nada. Zilch. Nyet. The ass end of zero.

This is simply how rich people stay rich and help other rich people to stay rich. Why is anyone surprised at this?
 
2009-06-25 03:41:16 AM  
Some jobs include a significant amount of the overall negotiated compensation package as bonuses rather than straight salary levels.

When I accepted the offer for my current job, it was explicitly included in my employment agreement that I'd receive a performance-based bonus of up to 20% of my base salary. And I'm not even a manager, let alone a top executive.

If the government passed legislation capping any bonuses at 5%, the pay cut I'd be forced to take could easily be the tipping point that would push me into considering other positions that had a higher percentage of the compensation as a base salary rather than bonuses.
 
2009-06-25 03:42:20 AM  
One of these days....
 
2009-06-25 03:43:30 AM  
www.jossip.com
 
2009-06-25 03:47:01 AM  

Eyebleach: It isn't any different than people using creative accounting and shelters, all within the law, to dodge taxes. They are just dodging restrictions the feds placed on them for bonus payouts.

These people are experts at taking money and disappearing it. It's what they do. They're good at it.

Hey maybe they will pay some taxes now.

/'prolly now but I can hope.
 
2009-06-25 03:48:58 AM  

Crosshair: eddyatwork: And people wonder why I loathe capitalism so much.

Do you also loathe the woman who gets raped? You're getting mad at the symptom, not the cause. Government intervention IS NOT capitalism.

In a real capitalist economy Citigroup would have gone bankrupt, those people would be looking for new jobs at companies that didn't do the things Citigroup did, and we would not be having this conversation.


Hasn't this whole "real capitalist economy" concept been debunked time after time in almost every thread about these sorts of issues?

I understand the Libertarian pov involves allowing the entire system to fail just so they can prove a point, but I seriously don't think even they would be able to survive under the conditions that would prevail after a complete economic collapse. If everything went south, the first thing we would need to do is establish a strict set of rules that would keep the predators: i.e. other countries: from eating whomever is left, and there would be more restrictions on our activities rather than less.

A "real capitalist system" would eventually collapse under the weight of it's own greed and corruption. These banks continually prove this to be the case - they would, if left unchecked, just come to our homes and steal everything that wasn't nailed down. Deregulation has destroyed this country. I know it's hard for you Repubs to accept, but Reagan's economic policies sowed the seeds of this largely unchecked money grab. So enjoy watching our money just fall into the gold-lined pockets of the bankers, it's (largely) your fault.
 
2009-06-25 03:52:23 AM  

stirfrybry: cheap labor conservatives rely on the wealthy to continue spending.


The problem is that rich people are one of three types of people.

The first two are heirs and lucky bastards. These people spend their money and go broke pretty quickly, generally. And in doing so, they don't pay people for jobs, they buy expensive toys because OMG they're rich and need them.

The third are people who invest intelligently. These people have money BECAUSE they don't spend it. They don't hire people for jobs they don't need to pay for. Instead, they hoard.


In short, rich people don't make jobs. Because they're rich. If they were investing in a company to create jobs, they wouldn't be.

Trickle-down economics was always a pipe dream and now it's been proven to be absolutely 100% wishful thinking on the part of the wealthy, trying to justify their reaming of everyone else.
 
2009-06-25 03:53:57 AM  

nuclear_asshat: I think there is a huge misunderstanding of how the bonus system works...
So before people get up in arms about the bonuses, realize that the vast majority were people like me who went from 28K to 33K.


let me clear my throat. hemhem.

"TOO BAD."fark your bonuses on my dime. fark it right in the ear. get a real job.
 
2009-06-25 04:00:32 AM  
library.creativecow.net
 
2009-06-25 04:01:24 AM  

willfullyobscure: et me clear my throat. hemhem.

"TOO BAD."fark your bonuses on my dime. fark it right in the ear. get a real job.


First off, no need to be a pretentious prick. I have not worked for a financial institution in years. I picked up the skill set after two years and left and I help raise and manage money for non-profits and schools.

Second, I was trying to provide some context to how the system works, and why it's setup that way so it makes sense beyond the sensationalist headlines. The headlines don't provide any real detail so the average person makes judgements based on pure ignorance.

I thought giving some personal experience might add some tiny bit of knowledge. It's clear that your only goal is to be a huge douche.
 
2009-06-25 04:01:40 AM  
I'm so sick of all this shiat. It's all just a big scam.

Here's an example of how it would work for us normal people:

I find a homeless guy who by some scam or another owes me $100,000. I sell this IOU to a collection agency for $50,000. In their minds, they have just made $50k. But I actually do have $50k and I spend it. I could even hire people at give them a $10,000 "bonus" to find me more homeless people who owe me $100k.

It's all smoke and mirrors. $5 million in bonuses? Really? How much profit in actual, legitimate money do you think they made the company for that kind of compensation? If you invent a bunch of B.S. that looks good on paper and walk away with $5 million that's a scam, plain and simple.

:(
 
2009-06-25 04:06:08 AM  
Whatever. If they wanted to pay more money keep their top employees, they shouldn't have made all those ridiculous bubble investments to necessitate a bailout. So fine with me if Obama nixes the plan.

BTW: according to the article these salary adjustments also need to be approved by the government, and the people in charge at Citigroup would have to be stupid to think changing the name of what they are doing is going to fool the government overseers.
 
2009-06-25 04:14:18 AM  
I just got finished watching "Maxed Out" so I was already re-pissed off at all these financial institutions and now I'm even more re-pissed off but low on adjectives.

I was also laid off in January from my job at a financial institution. They cut from the bottom and not the top as usual.

I'm a nuclear warhead of rage, but I'm tired so I'm going to bed now.

g-ec2.images-amazon.com

/fark BBVA Compass as well.
 
2009-06-25 04:14:42 AM  
Thorak

The problem is that rich people are one of three types of people.

The first two are heirs and lucky bastards. These people spend their money and go broke pretty quickly, generally. And in doing so, they don't pay people for jobs, they buy expensive toys because OMG they're rich and need them.


Who do think makes expensive toys, wiseass?

The third are people who invest intelligently. These people have money BECAUSE they don't spend it. They don't hire people for jobs they don't need to pay for. Instead, they hoard.

You have no idea what you're talking about.


In short, rich people don't make jobs. Because they're rich. If they were investing in a company to create jobs, they wouldn't be.

Trickle-down economics was always a pipe dream and now it's been proven to be absolutely 100% wishful thinking on the part of the wealthy, trying to justify their reaming of everyone else.


Trickle-down may be a pipe dream, but not because of your ignoramus birdbrain logic.
 
2009-06-25 04:23:28 AM  

aerojockey: Who do think makes expensive toys, wiseass?


People who get paid as little as their CEO can get away with paying them. Circle of wealth. Rich people buy toys that make other rich people even more rich.

Also, the number of expensive toys is vastly smaller than the everyday items most people need. I'm willing to bet Sony makes more gross profit off 32"-42" LCD TVs than off 60"+ ones. It's not the expensive toys that are employing people or making for the bulk of the profits.

But feel free to, like, actually present an argument next time.
 
2009-06-25 04:40:17 AM  
GAT_00

In a real capitalist economy, the crash that would have occurred from letting them die would have taken out the money market, frozen day to day operations and completely stopped the process that keeps you eating. I doubt even a 'survivalist' like you had enough supplies to live through a complete economic system reboot. You'd have starved like the vast majority of the country.

In the real world, the FDIC guarantees the deposits even during bankruptcy, so the melt down you picture is quite unlikely. The government would still have had to pay, but significantly less than they have. Citigroup would have been resecuritized or acquired during the bankruptcy process. Essentially, extra billions in taxpayer money were paid out to allow the shareholders to keep a good chunk of their equity and to allow more higher ups to keep their jobs.

In the libertarian what-if, there wouldn't an FDIC, but then again people would have been more suspicious without the promise of Federal backing and the spurious endorsement of the financial practices by the FDIC and SEC.
 
2009-06-25 04:41:41 AM  

aerojockey: You have no idea what you're talking about.


Actually, he's right on the money. Rich people who stay rich do so by hoarding wealth, not by spending it. They are a net drain on the system.
 
2009-06-25 06:56:14 AM  

haemaker: I wonder how many Citibank bank tellers will get a 50% raise.


My guess would be 0.
 
2009-06-25 06:59:02 AM  

nuclear_asshat: eddyatwork: And people wonder why I loathe capitalism so much.

You think this doesn't happen in socialist or communist countries? Instead of banking executives, it's party leaders or government officials.

There is always the privileged class, and there is no economic system devoid of it.


THIS, a thousand times.

No matter what system you have in place, the world's most assertive assholes will wind up running things. IMO, it might as well be capitalism (a sort of one that is held in check, but not choked) so these people will run private companies instead and have economic incentives to wield control over people. An added bonus is that anyone willing to put forth effort and learn can choose to climb out of lower social strata.

Nothing is perfect so long as children are raised to be assholes as adults. And our species will never stop cranking them out, to be sure...
 
2009-06-25 07:01:23 AM  
Heh heh. Gives you a real good look at how the minds of these people work and how they view you.
 
2009-06-25 07:25:45 AM  
dvdmedia.ign.com

Obscure?
 
2009-06-25 07:50:50 AM  

Dread Patch Slappy: Obscure?


Johnathan E
 
2009-06-25 08:09:43 AM  
fark citi.

i was their perfect credit card customer: i carried a balance, but i always paid more than double the minimum, and i have a FICO score in the high 700s... but those farkers jacked my CC rate from 6.9% to 14.9% for NO REASON. when i called to ask why, they said it was due to the "overall financial climate." the person was unmoved when i pointed out that the taxpayers had just loaned them billions of dollars to FREE UP CREDIT.... so i did what i should've done a long time ago; i sucked it up, paid the card off and will never, EVER use a citi product again.

so, once again: fark citi.
 
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