kriegfusion: elev8meL8r: Is our children learning? Or just forming babby?

I accidentally all of my pizza rolls
+1

ftfy

Abacot: This is a product of worthless teachers. It is the only profession that you can continually fail and still get a raise every year let alone keep your job. The teaching profession is for lazy, pathetic, losers. This needs to change.

Hey, as a teacher, I take offense to that. Its not the only profession...


But seriously, its not 100% teachers, just like its not 100% anything. My serious problem-as mentioned above-is that we are stuck trying to teach students that don't want to learn, that don't want to be there, that just exist to make others suffer as they do. I call them saboteurs. They have to go to school, are miserable, and want to make others miserable as well. Look at the American education system over the last 50 years. What has changed? It seems to me the biggest change is that the biggest is that we try to keep unteachable students in class with everyone else. It brings the whole system down.

And that's a large difference between the US and all those other countries that seem to have higher scores than us. They don't test all their kids. For better or worse, we do.

If these are the kinds of results teachings are producing, I think their salaries are too high.

PJ_the_Barbarian: NyNy21: The problem is the parents/students not the school system. I attended public school in central Harlem, and over 90% of the students graduated on time. If the student/parents don't give a rats ass if they graduate there is nothing you can do to force them to care...

That's true and probably the most important factor. But with how frequently you hear about how poorly qualified some of the newer teachers are, I'm forced to conclude that there are plenty of problems there too.

While there may be some bad teachers, the fact that after 3 years in the system, something like 90% of new teachers have moved on to other professions is a bigger problem.

/In before blame the unions hurr durr
//Much smaller class sizes and less fedral interference would do wonders for America's educational system
///Take all the money spent on standardized tests per school and hire 3 new teachers (or more) per school

Beats Los Angeles the drop out rate here is just over 50%.

/What these kids need is parental involvement like my dad's. Who once said to me "If you ever even think about dropping out of school I'll kill you in your sleep".

So when can we openly acknowledge that the government-run schools in this country are a miserable failure? When can we finally euthanize the elephant in the room and stop force-feeding useless information to people who don't want to learn?

The_Sponge: Good....maybe this will stop New Yorkers from acting like they live in the best city in the farking universe.

This will not stop. At least, until someone finds a better city.

Abacot: It is the only profession that you can continually fail and still get a raise every year let alone keep your job.

Well, aside from every other farking union member on the planet, yeah.... NEA=UAW

beoswulf: Doesn't matter how many advanced degrees these teachers have, the parents consider any educator that is white to be poorly qualified. Only someone with the unique wisdom offered by the latino or hispanic experience is appropriate for educating their precious snowflakes.

BULLshiat

NyNy21: The problem is the parents/students not the school system. I attended public school in central Harlem, and over 90% of the students graduated on time. If the student/parents don't give a rats ass if they graduate there is nothing you can do to force them to care...

So the teachers aren't scared enough. Got it.

Kona_Bean: How hard is it?

It can't be that hard. For FSM's sake, I graduated from high school and I was barely aware that I was in my required gubmint and physics classes. (I wonder if our salutatorian would have been valedictorian if he hadn't been absent when physics partners were picked. (I had to use spell check for both of those.))

Heh. Had a flashback to a moment when I realized physics was required for graduation. "Um. Do I have any chance of passing this class?" "You're getting a C. Now go away." Despite the fact that my buddy and I rarely turned in our lab paperwork, we did the experiments so we wouldn't screw Salutatorian, too. Our data and methods were always spot-on. My buddy and I just didn't follow with much (any?) of the required paperwork. Which would have taken all of an hour per experiment.

And another flashback to the time Salutatorian got a laser in the eye. "I'm ready to turn on the laser. Do not walk in front of the Laser! Is everyone clear? DO NOT WALK IN FRONT OF THE LASER!" "Okay!" Coast is clear. "Oh, I need to grab my noteboDAMNIT!" I don't think it did any permanent damage.

ilikeracecars: Abacot: This is a product of worthless teachers. It is the only profession that you can continually fail and still get a raise every year let alone keep your job. The teaching profession is for lazy, pathetic, losers. This needs to change.

Hey, as a teacher, I take offense to that. Its not the only profession...


But seriously, its not 100% teachers, just like its not 100% anything. My serious problem-as mentioned above-is that we are stuck trying to teach students that don't want to learn, that don't want to be there, that just exist to make others suffer as they do. I call them saboteurs. They have to go to school, are miserable, and want to make others miserable as well. Look at the American education system over the last 50 years. What has changed? It seems to me the biggest change is that the biggest is that we try to keep unteachable students in class with everyone else. It brings the whole system down.

And that's a large difference between the US and all those other countries that seem to have higher scores than us. They don't test all their kids. For better or worse, we do.

This. People forget the test scores of our students compared to other countries is not really comparable for two reasons.

1. Most successful systems separate the students early. It's obvious which students are more cut out for trades (including complex electronics) then for academics. Those sent on the trade route are not tested like normal students.

2. Our education is required. We are one of the few countries that don't accept an "opt out" of education. So we have lots of students that don't want to be there and probably shouldn't be.

The_Sponge: Good....maybe this will stop New Yorkers from acting like they live in the best city in the farking universe.

You seem to spend a great deal of your time bashing New York. Has all this effort made you feel better about yourself in some way?

I do care about your feelings.

T.M.S.: The_Sponge: Good....maybe this will stop New Yorkers from acting like they live in the best city in the farking universe.

You seem to spend a great deal of your time bashing New York. Has all this effort made you feel better about yourself in some way?

I do care about your feelings.
Who doesn't like pissing on a toilet.

WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE? Education whaaaaa?


any jobs left have long ago been outsourced or mechanized.

it's as though the corporate hierarchy that owns your country
forgot that people would need jobs and money to spend
in order to continue buying the shiit they're selling.


OOOOOOPS

Phony_Soldier: If these are the kinds of results teachings are producing, I think their salaries are too high.

Actually, no. Lowering teacher salaries would not help--ever heard of "pay peanuts, hire monkeys"? The problem is that, from what I've heard, it is WAY too frickin' hard to fire an incompetent teacher. (I know that's the case north of the forty-ninth: the teachers who didn't get let go, oy vey.)

Well, that's part of the problem. Another part is that the western world's got this idea that *children* have a right to an education. Not just people in general, but specifically children. We collectively think that if you kick out a kid who doesn't want to be there, they're doomed forever. Me, I'm totally cool with the idea of expelling the problem kids--the ringleaders--and letting them back when they're ready to sit down and learn. Even if they're eighty.

In my elementary school, the grade's worst bully *finally* got "transferred to a better school" in the last year before junior high. All the other bullies instantly started behaving miles better. I don't know if they were afraid of being transferred, too, or if they'd just been following orders all those years without any interest in bullying for its own sake, but either way the results were dramatic and excellent.

In short: kick the worst students. Kick the worst teachers. Raise salaries for the non-kicked teachers. The non-kicked students will be automatically rewarded.

At least, that's what we'd do if I was queen biatch of the universe.

/forgive any grievous errors: I'm blitzed on cold meds atm

merreborn: Where the hell does it all go?

Special Ed.

And peeps blame the growing income gap on CEO's hoarding money. This is exactly why the income gap is increases, its the education gap between the educated and fark ups that is causeing the growing income gap. I wish this was my enlightened opinion but its not, before you try to call me out look some stuff up.

Very good point theigorway

ilikeracecars: Abacot: This is a product of worthless teachers. It is the only profession that you can continually fail and still get a raise every year let alone keep your job. The teaching profession is for lazy, pathetic, losers. This needs to change.

Hey, as a teacher, I take offense to that. Its not the only profession...


But seriously, its not 100% teachers, just like its not 100% anything. My serious problem-as mentioned above-is that we are stuck trying to teach students that don't want to learn, that don't want to be there, that just exist to make others suffer as they do. I call them saboteurs. They have to go to school, are miserable, and want to make others miserable as well. Look at the American education system over the last 50 years. What has changed? It seems to me the biggest change is that the biggest is that we try to keep unteachable students in class with everyone else. It brings the whole system down.

And that's a large difference between the US and all those other countries that seem to have higher scores than us. They don't test all their kids. For better or worse, we do.

Sometimes I bash teachers, but it isnt all their fault some of its is their parents if they have any. I wish they would allow students to just not go if they didnt want to be there.why waste the schools time, let'm go to jail early get those felonies knocked out and served before they are 25 lol.

theigorway: merreborn: Where the hell does it all go?

Special Ed.

I'd like to point out that not all recipients of special ed are incurable retards. My daughter inherited my "profound speech delay"--i.e., both of us were 4 or 5 before we learned how to speak our mother tongue, and both of us needed professional help to learn it that soon. Both of us are otherwise intelligent people: my daughter can read about thirty different words and hasn't even entered kindergarten yet, plus she's usually got a better grip on which day of the week it is than the adults around her. As for me, once I got the hang of English, I was a straight-A student.

That's not to say your point is entirely invalid: there are, indeed, incurable retards in the system and they seem to get a lot of money and effort thrown at them, when you think you'd get a way better ROI throwing a fraction of that at regular kids. Get 'em microscopes that stay in focus and don't slither down until the lens bonks the specimen--God, I hated my high school's 'scopes...

Helen_Arigby: theigorway: merreborn: Where the hell does it all go?

Special Ed.

I'd like to point out that not all recipients of special ed are incurable retards. My daughter inherited my "profound speech delay"--i.e., both of us were 4 or 5 before we learned how to speak our mother tongue, and both of us needed professional help to learn it that soon. Both of us are otherwise intelligent people: my daughter can read about thirty different words and hasn't even entered kindergarten yet, plus she's usually got a better grip on which day of the week it is than the adults around her. As for me, once I got the hang of English, I was a straight-A student.

That's not to say your point is entirely invalid: there are, indeed, incurable retards in the system and they seem to get a lot of money and effort thrown at them, when you think you'd get a way better ROI throwing a fraction of that at regular kids. Get 'em microscopes that stay in focus and don't slither down until the lens bonks the specimen--God, I hated my high school's 'scopes...

Privatize education. Problem solved.

You do know that NYC has something crazy like 40% of its population born in other countries, right?

See how well you do when you are asked to take a regents exam written in English when you have been here all of a few months.

Lots of it - I think - is the way school is structured. As someone mentioned above, they needed to pass physics to graduate. I remember the same for me. It was Government. At one point I completely bombed a test (I blame girls), and realized afterwards that if I don't pass this class, the LAST 11 YEARS OF MY SCHOOLING WAS WASTED. Now, I'm sure I could have done something if I failed, and still gotten my Diploma, but I wonder how many other students find themselves in the same situation. Failed this one class, and now they can't graduate. I'm ont saying make it automatic or something, but it seems weird, you know? There should be an optional 13th year, or make it so everything is done in 11, and make the 12th optional. either way, you can use that optional year to retake a failed class you needed, or take some fun electives, or some physics classes to help get into colleges. Something.

/My longest fark comment ever.
//I need to get a TF subscription.

Helen_Arigby: I'd like to point out that not all recipients of special ed are incurable retards.


I don't believe I made any comments about the value of Special Ed - just that the growth in these programs accounts for almost all the increase in spending.

Regular education programs have averaged 3% growth since 1975 - more less keeping even with inflation.

I'll pass on the debate about whether or not special ed has been worth the investment. But, I think it's important for folks to understand where the money is going.

Of the 56.4%, how many have crotchfruit?

merreborn:
Our national per-student spending is the highest in the world, and yet our schools always seem to need more money.

Where the hell does it all go?


sure the u.s. spends more on education than any other country (by the way, are there statistics or an article to back that up?) but it's not in any way, distributed by need. It's common knowledge that suburban schools in white collar, higher tax-bracket communities recieve more funding than poorer communities. Thats why the suburbs can afford lap tops for every student and poorer school districts are using decade old text books.

since value isn't given to their educational needs, they see no value in education.

theigorway: merreborn: Where the hell does it all go?

Special Ed.

figures they spend more on retards than they do gifted people

Gdalescrboz: And peeps blame the growing income gap on CEO's hoarding money. This is exactly why the income gap is increases, its the education gap between the educated and fark ups that is causeing the growing income gap. I wish this was my enlightened opinion but its not, before you try to call me out look some stuff up.


Funny thing about that: most schools get their primary funding as a portion of the tax revenue of the district they're in.

thekcins: Lots of it - I think - is the way school is structured. As someone mentioned above, they needed to pass physics to graduate. I remember the same for me. It was Government. At one point I completely bombed a test (I blame girls), and realized afterwards that if I don't pass this class, the LAST 11 YEARS OF MY SCHOOLING WAS WASTED. Now, I'm sure I could have done something if I failed, and still gotten my Diploma, but I wonder how many other students find themselves in the same situation. Failed this one class, and now they can't graduate. I'm ont saying make it automatic or something, but it seems weird, you know? There should be an optional 13th year, or make it so everything is done in 11, and make the 12th optional. either way, you can use that optional year to retake a failed class you needed, or take some fun electives, or some physics classes to help get into colleges. Something.

/My longest fark comment ever.
//I need to get a TF subscription.

Yeah the regents requirement is a biatch. Did they make foreign language a requirement?

SgtArkie: theigorway: merreborn: Where the hell does it all go?

Special Ed.

figures they spend more on retards than they do gifted people

Sounds like Obama's Amerika in microcosm.

I find your lack of Idiocracy disturbing.

MrLint: beoswulf:
Doesn't matter how many advanced degrees these teachers have, the parents consider any educator that is white to be poorly qualified. Only someone with the unique wisdom offered by the latino or hispanic experience is appropriate for educating their precious snowflakes.


[citation needed]


"On May 9, 1968, junior high school teacher Fred Nauman received a letter that would change the history of New York City. It informed him that he had been fired from his job. Eighteen other educators in the Ocean Hill-Brownsville area of Brooklyn received similar letters that day. The dismissed educators were white. The local school board that fired them was predominantly African-American. The crisis that the firings provoked became the most racially divisive moment in the city in more than a century, sparking three teachers' strikes and increasingly angry confrontations between black and white New Yorkers at bargaining tables, on picket lines, and in the streets."

Link (new window)

Pay the Man: SgtArkie: theigorway: merreborn: Where the hell does it all go?

Special Ed.

figures they spend more on retards than they do gifted people

Sounds like Obama's Amerika in microcosm.

Idiocracy getting played out. except it wont take 500 years

We also go to school fewer days per year than other nations. Japanese students spend 60 more days per year in the classroom.

Our summer break is based on antiquated social need. We ought to be extending the year, and closing the gaps between June and September.

beoswulf: "On May 9, 1968,

So your source is 40 years old? Back to school for you...

I came from a mid-sized school in a small Missouri town that graduates about 55%. (Of course the drop out rate is more like 9% due to funny math).

I thought it was good to get most of the obstructions out of the way so that the rest of us could learn. We had an incredibly high ACT average with over 15% of my class scoring in the top 3% nationally.

Unshavenhelga: We also go to school fewer days per year than other nations. Japanese students spend 60 more days per year in the classroom.

Our summer break is based on antiquated social need. We ought to be extending the year, and closing the gaps between June and September.

Yeah, just you try and get that one past the teachers' unions... It would be easier to piss up the side of Mt. Everest in a full blizzard with an empty farkin' bladder.

spookybee: sure the u.s. spends more on education than any other country (by the way, are there statistics or an article to back that up?) but it's not in any way, distributed by need. It's common knowledge that suburban schools in white collar, higher tax-bracket communities recieve more funding than poorer communities. Thats why the suburbs can afford lap tops for every student and poorer school districts are using decade old text books.

since value isn't given to their educational needs, they see no value in education.

Oh I see, so if a poor minority student isn't given a laptop or shown videos on flat screen television in school, he is denied the ability to learn and doomed to failure by society. He never even had a chance.

That's funny, my school didn't have any fancy gizmos, we used severely out-of-date falling-apart textbooks, my teachers were paid far below average, and I did very well.

How did that happen? Well, I went to a private school that would throw me out if I didn't work hard, and it would have had to shut down if it didn't offer a valuable service to its attendees.

Phony_Soldier: Wow, how are we ever going to be able to afford healtcare for all these flunkies?

Simple. Let them take every small issue to the emergency room and then skip out on paying, forcing everybody else to subsidize them to the tune of $26,000 for a 45-minute surgery. It's been working great so far... unless you're middle class.

Unshavenhelga: beoswulf: "On May 9, 1968,

So your source is 40 years old? Back to school for you...

well that was the last time a teacher was fired unless they were diddling their students.

Uncle Pim: Gdalescrboz: And peeps blame the growing income gap on CEO's hoarding money. This is exactly why the income gap is increases, its the education gap between the educated and fark ups that is causeing the growing income gap. I wish this was my enlightened opinion but its not, before you try to call me out look some stuff up.


Funny thing about that: most schools get their primary funding as a portion of the tax revenue of the district they're in.

Oh yeah, biggest piece of imaginary fairness in the whole education system: public schools in rich neighborhoods are funded by property tax revenues from those rich neighborhoods.

Biv: ilikeracecars: Abacot: This is a product of worthless teachers. It is the only profession that you can continually fail and still get a raise every year let alone keep your job. The teaching profession is for lazy, pathetic, losers. This needs to change.

Hey, as a teacher, I take offense to that. Its not the only profession...


But seriously, its not 100% teachers, just like its not 100% anything. My serious problem-as mentioned above-is that we are stuck trying to teach students that don't want to learn, that don't want to be there, that just exist to make others suffer as they do. I call them saboteurs. They have to go to school, are miserable, and want to make others miserable as well. Look at the American education system over the last 50 years. What has changed? It seems to me the biggest change is that the biggest is that we try to keep unteachable students in class with everyone else. It brings the whole system down.

And that's a large difference between the US and all those other countries that seem to have higher scores than us. They don't test all their kids. For better or worse, we do.

This. People forget the test scores of our students compared to other countries is not really comparable for two reasons.

1. Most successful systems separate the students early. It's obvious which students are more cut out for trades (including complex electronics) then for academics. Those sent on the trade route are not tested like normal students.

2. Our education is required. We are one of the few countries that don't accept an "opt out" of education. So we have lots of students that don't want to be there and probably shouldn't be.

3. We educate everyone (supposedly). This includes mentally retarded kids, autistic kids, etc. Think China or India does that?

Can'tLetYouDoThatStarFox: spookybee: sure the u.s. spends more on education than any other country (by the way, are there statistics or an article to back that up?) but it's not in any way, distributed by need. It's common knowledge that suburban schools in white collar, higher tax-bracket communities recieve more funding than poorer communities. Thats why the suburbs can afford lap tops for every student and poorer school districts are using decade old text books.

since value isn't given to their educational needs, they see no value in education.

Oh I see, so if a poor minority student isn't given a laptop or shown videos on flat screen television in school, he is denied the ability to learn and doomed to failure by society. He never even had a chance.

That's funny, my school didn't have any fancy gizmos, we used severely out-of-date falling-apart textbooks, my teachers were paid far below average, and I did very well.

How did that happen? Well, I went to a private school that would throw me out if I didn't work hard, and it would have had to shut down if it didn't offer a valuable service to its attendees.

I don't mean to presume about your family situation, but I would imagine that you had at least one parent or guardian who cared about your education, also.

Spartan_Manhandler: Phony_Soldier: Wow, how are we ever going to be able to afford healtcare for all these flunkies?

Simple. Let them take every small issue to the emergency room and then skip out on paying, forcing everybody else to subsidize them to the tune of $26,000 for a 45-minute surgery. It's been working great so far... unless you're middle class.

oh, and a gubment funded system will be much better, yeah right.

Unshavenhelga: beoswulf: "On May 9, 1968,

So your source is 40 years old? Back to school for you...

Has the experience for white NYC educators improved?

theigorway: Helen_Arigby: I'd like to point out that not all recipients of special ed are incurable retards.


I don't believe I made any comments about the value of Special Ed - just that the growth in these programs accounts for almost all the increase in spending.

Regular education programs have averaged 3% growth since 1975 - more less keeping even with inflation.

I'll pass on the debate about whether or not special ed has been worth the investment. But, I think it's important for folks to understand where the money is going.

Fair enough. It's just merreborn was bewailing the educational-funding black hole and you replied with a comment about special ed, so I leapt to the conclusion that you equate special ed with a waste of money. My bad.

And yes, it is important for info to get out, so carry on.

Of all the movies that could come true - why'd it have to be "IDIOCRACY"?!?!

/why couldn't it be "Teletubbies In Space"
/...or "Barberella"

PJ_the_Barbarian: I don't mean to presume about your family situation, but I would imagine that you had at least one parent or guardian who cared about your education, also.

Yep I did. So wait a minute, it's not about how much taxpayer money we throw at the school systems, it's about the students? Who knew?!