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(BBC)   Palestinians: we can haz state, army, munitions control of airspace? Netanyahu: no, not yours. Mubarak: LOL WUT   (news.bbc.co.uk) divider line 247
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8364 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Jun 2009 at 5:44 PM (5 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2009-06-15 07:59:55 PM
Party Boy: INTERTRON: Great, then you can link me to the BBC story that says there were absolutely no rockets or mortars coming from Gaza prior to November 4th.

Im having a hard time telling if this is a troll.

The skinny on it is that Hamas didnt fire until the Israeli raid on Nov4. Other groups contra/fighting Hamas did.


Are you trolling here?

Even if Hamas didn't personally launch every single rocket, they still have the ability to stop the vast majority of rocket attacks by "other groups". They don't, because their objectives are aligned in hurting Israel. That, and they're too busy making their own rockets to shoot into kindergartens.
 
2009-06-15 08:02:10 PM
eqtworld:
When are the Palestinians going to accept that G-d Winston Churchill gave the holy land to the Jews?

I normally don't go the "fixed that for you" route, but this was too easy to pass up.
 
2009-06-15 08:05:51 PM
INTERTRON: Even if Hamas didn't personally launch every single rocket

They actually launched none, zero before the Israeli raid.

INTERTRON: they still have the ability to stop

They arrested a number of people doing it. Islamic Jihad and Fatah dont like Hamas.
 
2009-06-15 08:06:39 PM
Murkanen: NeoKhan: Fixed that for you.

Your correction makes no sense nor is it funny.


It's not a joke. The Egyptians created Gaza in 1948, and were far crueler occupiers of its inhabitants than the Israelis have ever been.
 
2009-06-15 08:08:11 PM
NeoKhan: It's not a joke. The Egyptians created Gaza in 1948, and were far crueler occupiers of its inhabitants than the Israelis have ever been.

Which has nothing to do with the Israeli's starting the fighting again in 2008.
 
2009-06-15 08:08:27 PM
NeoKhan: .

almost got me. pick a more subtle name.
 
2009-06-15 08:08:44 PM
eqtworld: It will be just like having their own country, but not.

When are the Palestinians going to accept that G-d gave the holy land to the Jews?


If by God you mean the Brits (I think it was them) then yah.

Also Bomb Mecca there was a Palestine... The British Mandate of Palestine.
Notice the capital (new window)
 
2009-06-15 08:09:36 PM
Maul555

vertiaset:
We in the West must come to understand that the Jews who had lived in Europe for 1800 years had NO RIGHT other than force of arms to come into Palestine, seize ancestral homes and farms from Muslim families that had been there for sixty generations, force them into camps, murder them and steal the patrimony of their children all with the complicity of a West guilt stricken over the holocaust.

Sure we all saw "Exodus" and other bits of Hollywood propaganda and felt sympathy for the Jews who did in fact suffer much.

However, the Arab inhabitants of Palestine did not gas six million Jews ... it was the Germans. Moreover, it was the Americans, English and Russians who defeated the Nazis and liberated those horrible camps.

In point of fact in the early days of the Zionist movement many Muslims welcomed their new hardworking Jewish neighbors and helped them start anew only to be betrayed a generation later by the sons and daughters of those they helped.

Israel is a lie. It is the land of Palestine. The Kingdom of Judea was destroyed by the Romans two thousand years ago. The Jews have no legitimate claim to that land except that, with our, meaning the Western nations, money and weapons, they conquered a weak people and took it.

This is why the Islamic world laughs at our pretense of loving justice and the rule of law. Islam is growing now and power and strength and their memories are long.


That's nice and all, but it really only matters if you have a time machine. The past is behind us, mistakes where made, and now we need to move forward. You must come to understand that Israel isn't going anywhere...

Well, the Babylonians, Assyrians, Persians, Egyptians, Seleucid Greeks and the Romans, all of who have destroyed "Jewish States" might disagree with you.

The horrible injustice perpetrated on the Muslim people who inhabited the land known as Palestine by the Jews displaced by the holocaust, the very people who had suffered from the same sort of "might makes right" mindset and should have known better has set the stage for a new Armageddon.

The Muslim peoples of the Middle East are not the backward cowards portrayed by the Western media. They fight, as do all partisans, a shadow war using guerrilla tactics against a modern European style nuclear power. However, this is changing. The world is very different now than it was in 1967.

Justice will be done either, as I hope and pray, through the ballot box and the treaty, but by guns, missiles and fighter jets if these things fail. May intelligence and humanity prevail and let there finally be peace in that land.
 
2009-06-15 08:10:02 PM
Murkanen: Maul555: You must come to understand that Israel isn't going anywhere

Them not going anywhere doesn't give them a free pass when they act like douches on an epic scale...


I have made it a point to pay attention for a while now, And what I see is a very well restrained and patient country that takes way more shiat than anybody should be expected to take. I know that if my country had a similar situation on its border, we would have invaded a long time ago.
 
2009-06-15 08:10:33 PM
Party Boy: INTERTRON: Even if Hamas didn't personally launch every single rocket

They actually launched none, zero before the Israeli raid.

INTERTRON: they still have the ability to stop

They arrested a number of people doing it. Islamic Jihad and Fatah dont like Hamas.


This message brought to you by the Gaza Ministry of Information
 
2009-06-15 08:10:51 PM
Jormungandr: Brits

Zionism is(certainly was in this time period) a secular movement, and Zionist immigration into the Levant/Israel/Palestine predated the British mandate by 40 years.
 
2009-06-15 08:14:19 PM
Murkanen: NeoKhan: It's not a joke. The Egyptians created Gaza in 1948, and were far crueler occupiers of its inhabitants than the Israelis have ever been.

Which has nothing to do with the Israeli's starting the fighting again in 2008.


And Israel was supposed to be mind readers or something? Do they label the rockets or something depending on who shot them?
 
2009-06-15 08:14:46 PM
Party Boy: They arrested a number of people doing it.

How many, and did they stop the constant rocket attacks?
It doesn't matter, really. Hamas is tasked with completely securing the Gaza Strip. If they can do it, great. If they can't, then they should step down. Israel sees Gaza attacking, and responds (eventually).
 
2009-06-15 08:15:06 PM
frizzantik: eqtworld: The Israelis just want to live in peace, it's the Muslims who are doing the bombing

Thats funny considering when you look at the death tolls, way more Palestinians are killed each year by Israelis than Israelis are killed by Palestinians


Yep, you think they'd learn after all those years of holding the shiatty end of the stick. I guess some folks never do.

but lets not things like facts get in the way now

Yes, let's not let facts like why these people died, under what circumstances and who killed them interfere with our anti-semitism zionism
 
2009-06-15 08:15:36 PM
beoswulf: This message brought to you by the Gaza Ministry of Information

Ugh.

Its actually brought to you by Israeli sources.
i) A period of relative quiet between June 19 and November 4 : As of June 19, there was a marked reduction in the extent of attacks on the western Negev population. The lull was sporadically violated by rocket and mortar shell fire, carried out by rogue terrorist organizations, in some instance in defiance of Hamas (especially by Fatah and Al-Qaeda supporters). Hamas was careful to maintain the ceasefire.

Also, Here's Israeli Spokeperson Regev saying the same thing.


Where are you guys getting your info?
 
2009-06-15 08:18:25 PM
Well, I guess it would have been a good thing for the Arafat to have accepted the offer at Camp David in 2000 brokered by Clinton and accepted by Israel where the Palestinians would have gotten pretty much everything they wanted including a state for themselves. Arafat's refusal pretty much sent Sharon into power.

Even the Arabs in the region don't want to give the Palestinians a state and they all have sizable Palestinian populations. The objective is not a Palestinian state, it is continued violence.
 
2009-06-15 08:18:45 PM
INTERTRON: Israel sees Gaza attacking, and responds

Actually. Including the issue with the "pre-emptive" Israeli raid on Nov 4...

Since the truce started on June 19, Israeli forces have opened fire in the Gaza Strip at least eight times, wounding two people, according to U.N. sources.

Palestinian militants fired rockets and mortars into southern Israel at least three times, causing no casualties, according to the Israeli army. Israel responded by keeping its border crossings with the Gaza Strip closed on Wednesday and Thursday.

Below are the incidents:

June 20

- Israeli army troops near the border east of the southern Gaza town of Rafah opened fire towards Palestinian farmers working in al-Amoor, according to U.N. sources. No injuries reported.

- Israeli troops east of el-Maghazi camp opened fire towards Palestinian farmers, according to U.N. sources. No injuries reported.

- Israeli marine vessels fired towards Palestinian fishermen west of Beit Lahiya, according U.N. sources. No injuries reported.

June 21

- Israeli marine vessels opened fire at Palestinian fishing boats west of Beit Lahiya, according to U.N. sources. No injuries reported.

- Israeli troops at the border north east of the el-Maghazi camp opened fire towards Palestinian farmers, according to U.N. sources. No injuries reported.

June 23

- Palestinians fired a mortar shell into southern Israel from the Gaza Strip, according to the Israeli army. No one hurt.

- Israeli troops near the border north-west of Beit Lahiya opened fire at a group of people collecting wood, seriously wounding a 70-year-old man, according to U.N. sources.


Come on. Lets stop the bullshiat.
 
2009-06-15 08:21:59 PM
Murkanen: NeoKhan: It's not a joke. The Egyptians created Gaza in 1948, and were far crueler occupiers of its inhabitants than the Israelis have ever been.

Which has nothing to do with the Israeli's starting the fighting again in 2008.


The Israelis did not "start the fighting again". Palestinians within the Gaza strip have been launching attacks at Israel almost continuously since 1948. There was a 4 month 2008 ceasefire. It expired December 19, and Hamas announced December 20 that it had no intention of renewing it. Israel adopted a "wait and see" announcement, and responded only to specific attackers. On December 24, Hamas launched "Operation Oil Stain" to completely shatter the relative* calm.

*Calm only in the Gaza sense. In any other context, twice-weekly terrorist attacks would be considered the opposite of calm.
 
2009-06-15 08:22:45 PM
vertiaset: Justice will be done either, as I hope and pray, through the ballot box and the treaty, but by guns, missiles and fighter jets if these things fail. May intelligence and humanity prevail and let there finally be peace in that land.

The one common theme for these message boards is that posters hate Jews living in peace far more than they care about the well being of the Arabs.
 
2009-06-15 08:22:48 PM
Party Boy: INTERTRON: Israel sees Gaza attacking, and responds

Actually. Including the issue with the "pre-emptive" Israeli raid on Nov 4...

Since the truce started on June 19, Israeli forces have opened fire in the Gaza Strip at least eight times, wounding two people, according to U.N. sources.

Palestinian militants fired rockets and mortars into southern Israel at least three times, causing no casualties, according to the Israeli army. Israel responded by keeping its border crossings with the Gaza Strip closed on Wednesday and Thursday.

Below are the incidents:

June 20

- Israeli army troops near the border east of the southern Gaza town of Rafah opened fire towards Palestinian farmers working in al-Amoor, according to U.N. sources. No injuries reported.

- Israeli troops east of el-Maghazi camp opened fire towards Palestinian farmers, according to U.N. sources. No injuries reported.

- Israeli marine vessels fired towards Palestinian fishermen west of Beit Lahiya, according U.N. sources. No injuries reported.

June 21

- Israeli marine vessels opened fire at Palestinian fishing boats west of Beit Lahiya, according to U.N. sources. No injuries reported.

- Israeli troops at the border north east of the el-Maghazi camp opened fire towards Palestinian farmers, according to U.N. sources. No injuries reported.

June 23

- Palestinians fired a mortar shell into southern Israel from the Gaza Strip, according to the Israeli army. No one hurt.

- Israeli troops near the border north-west of Beit Lahiya opened fire at a group of people collecting wood, seriously wounding a 70-year-old man, according to U.N. sources.

Come on. Lets stop the bullshiat.


If Israel wanted to actually kill those people, they would be dead. This sound like warning fire to me. If its one thing I have learned, its that Israel knows how to hit what they aim for.
 
2009-06-15 08:23:57 PM
Unsung_Hero: I think Israel would have been a lot better off supporting a Palestinian state, but explicitly stating that in return for Israel supporting a Palestinian military with control of its own airspace, they'd have to take responsibility for cross-border shelling.

You want a military? Fine, but any ordinance flying over the border is an act of war that'll get you stomped.

Then, I'd suggest they start WITHOUT the military or airspace control until such time as their new state manages to lock down the border.

It'd be North/South Korea for a generation or so, but probably better in the long run than continuing the current stalemate.


From all of the biatching, whining and "But...but..." drivel that I've seen in threads current and past, what I just read actually makes sense.
 
2009-06-15 08:24:41 PM
Maul555: I know that if my country had a similar situation on its border, we would have invaded a long time ago.

I'd have taken a different approach entirely, but it probably would have lead to me getting shot by some crazed ultra-fundie anyway. I don't have an I.W.I.N. button for a fast fix to the Israeli/Palestinian issue, but peace isn't going to happen until Israel learns to stop hitting the hornets nest every time they get stung. They have to get the moderates to realize they aren't the threat, and that means to stop treating the Palestinians as a unified group with their mass/group punishments.
 
2009-06-15 08:26:37 PM
Maul555: If its one thing I have learned, its that Israel knows how to hit what they aim for.

It's hard to miss something when you're dropping cluster bombs on it.
 
2009-06-15 08:27:20 PM
xen0blue: The precondition for Palestine becoming it's own country is to recognize Israel. It's no ones fault but their own (referring to the Palestinians) they don't get what they want.

Why? Israel refuses to recognize the Palestinians' right to exist. Why should the Palestinians be forced to give Israel what it demands when Israel refuses to do the same in return?
 
2009-06-15 08:28:28 PM
Party Boy: beoswulf: This message brought to you by the Gaza Ministry of Information

Ugh.

Its actually brought to you by Israeli sources. i) A period of relative quiet between June 19 and November 4 : As of June 19, there was a marked reduction in the extent of attacks on the western Negev population. The lull was sporadically violated by rocket and mortar shell fire, carried out by rogue terrorist organizations, in some instance in defiance of Hamas (especially by Fatah and Al-Qaeda supporters). Hamas was careful to maintain the ceasefire.

Also, Here's Israeli Spokeperson Regev saying the same thing.

Where are you guys getting your info?


Only with Israel does a cease-fire mean 'fire rockets up to an amount world opinion finds acceptable.'

Did the rockets actually cease-firing? Did the weapons smuggling stop? Did the cross border tunneling stop? Did planting explosives along the border stop?
 
2009-06-15 08:30:57 PM
Benjimin_Dover: Well, I guess it would have been a good thing for the Arafat to have accepted the offer at Camp David in 2000 brokered by Clinton and accepted by Israel where the Palestinians would have gotten pretty much everything they wanted including a state for themselves.

This is also a farce.
 
2009-06-15 08:31:37 PM
Maul555: This sound like warning fire to me.

sounds like a weak argument.
 
2009-06-15 08:31:38 PM
OhioKnight: Can anyone tell me, in all serious sober earnest (well, as much as possible for FARK), what reason there is for the US supporting Israel-- I mean, more than say, Belgium.

I understand the political reason, "power of the motivated vs. those who don't really care", the same reason for the Cuba stupidity, but is there a rational reason?

I mean, hurray for the Jews and all that- Nobel prizes have to go to somebody- but in the post Cold-war world, why does the US (rationally) care?

Is there actually a reason?


Israel doesn't let Germany through to keep invading France. Belgium has done that twice. They do have good beer and chocolate though.
 
2009-06-15 08:33:01 PM
beoswulf: Only with Israel does a cease-fire mean

Look. i know youve seen this stuff before. You know where this argument is going to go.

You seriously cant believe this stuff. If so, get new talking points. Theyre busted.
 
2009-06-15 08:34:42 PM
beoswulf: Unsung_Hero: I think Israel would have been a lot better off supporting a Palestinian state, but explicitly stating that in return for Israel supporting a Palestinian military with control of its own airspace, they'd have to take responsibility for cross-border shelling.

You want a military? Fine, but any ordinance flying over the border is an act of war that'll get you stomped.

Then, I'd suggest they start WITHOUT the military or airspace control until such time as their new state manages to lock down the border.

It'd be North/South Korea for a generation or so, but probably better in the long run than continuing the current stalemate.

I wanted to say "This" but you're basically describing the situation with Lebanon that has the world's blessing to regularly wage cross-border attacks and global jihad while crying "disproportionate response"


I concede to beoswulf's argument as well
 
2009-06-15 08:35:25 PM
 
2009-06-15 08:37:33 PM
Party Boy: INTERTRON: Israel sees Gaza attacking, and responds

Actually. Including the issue with the "pre-emptive" Israeli raid on Nov 4...

Since the truce started on June 19, Israeli forces have opened fire in the Gaza Strip at least eight times, wounding two people, according to U.N. sources.

Palestinian militants fired rockets and mortars into southern Israel at least three times, causing no casualties, according to the Israeli army. Israel responded by keeping its border crossings with the Gaza Strip closed on Wednesday and Thursday.

Below are the incidents:

June 20

- Israeli army troops near the border east of the southern Gaza town of Rafah opened fire towards Palestinian farmers working in al-Amoor, according to U.N. sources. No injuries reported.

- Israeli troops east of el-Maghazi camp opened fire towards Palestinian farmers, according to U.N. sources. No injuries reported.

- Israeli marine vessels fired towards Palestinian fishermen west of Beit Lahiya, according U.N. sources. No injuries reported.

June 21

- Israeli marine vessels opened fire at Palestinian fishing boats west of Beit Lahiya, according to U.N. sources. No injuries reported.

- Israeli troops at the border north east of the el-Maghazi camp opened fire towards Palestinian farmers, according to U.N. sources. No injuries reported.

June 23

- Palestinians fired a mortar shell into southern Israel from the Gaza Strip, according to the Israeli army. No one hurt.

- Israeli troops near the border north-west of Beit Lahiya opened fire at a group of people collecting wood, seriously wounding a 70-year-old man, according to U.N. sources.

Come on. Lets stop the bullshiat.


So, by your own account, Gaza was launching attacks prior to November 4th.

You aren't helping your case.
 
2009-06-15 08:45:43 PM
The only thing I see unreasonable in Israel's stance is the continued advancement of settlers. That will probably be the last thing they bend on. This is just Netanyahu's negotiating strategy. Mubarak is sounding like an idiot when he says that recognizing Israel is unreasonable.
 
2009-06-15 08:46:14 PM
INTERTRON: So, by your own account, Gaza was launching attacks prior to November 4th.

You aren't helping your case.



You're here to troll.

Party Boy: The skinny on it is that Hamas didnt fire until the Israeli raid on Nov4. Other groups contra/fighting Hamas did.

Totally compliant with that.

Also, note the june transgressions you skipped
 
2009-06-15 08:47:20 PM
8 dead Israelis since 2000 due to rocket fire.

In the same timeframe there have been HUNDREDS of Palestinian children "accidentally" killed by the IDF.

So gimme a break
 
2009-06-15 08:47:56 PM
frizzantik: eqtworld: The Israelis just want to live in peace, it's the Muslims who are doing the bombing

Thats funny considering when you look at the death tolls, way more Palestinians are killed each year by Israelis than Israelis are killed by Palestinians

but lets not things like facts get in the way now



As I've said before, Israel subscribes to the Jake Malone school of thought (rewritten for context): "You wanna know how to get to Hezbollah/Palestinian militants? They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. That's the Israeli way!"
 
2009-06-15 08:48:00 PM
 
2009-06-15 08:50:02 PM
im getting trolled.
 
2009-06-15 08:52:08 PM
Party Boy: Maul555: This sound like warning fire to me.

sounds like a weak argument.


Like I said, and you took effort to leave out of my quote... Israel knows how to hit what they aim for. I am not doubting that Israel fired at them, but they did not hit them... There is more here than simple farmers on the border getting shot at. Anybody wanna place some bets that there where smuggling tunnels in the area? Or those "fishing boats" where suspected smuggling boats or something else? If Israel wanted them dead, they would be dead.
 
2009-06-15 08:54:20 PM
Party Boy: Benjimin_Dover: Well, I guess it would have been a good thing for the Arafat to have accepted the offer at Camp David in 2000 brokered by Clinton and accepted by Israel where the Palestinians would have gotten pretty much everything they wanted including a state for themselves.

This is also a farce.


I only took Clinton's own account of the situation as described by him. I guess he lied about that too, eh? Another Rebublitard hoax, eh?
 
2009-06-15 08:54:44 PM
Maul555: and you took effort to leave out

the speculation.
 
2009-06-15 08:55:18 PM
Party Boy: InstaZen25: recognizing Israel is unreasonable.

"Recognizing Israel's existence" appears on first impression to involve a relatively straightforward acknowledgment of a fact of life. Yet there are serious practical problems with this language. What Israel, within what borders, is involved?


1. Recognize that Israel exists, and that its inhabitants ought not be murdered.
2. Sit. Let it sink in that you're interested in negotiation, not just in finding a new avenue for murder. If hypothetically that's what you want.
3. Discuss minor border details.

These things have an order. It's really hard to discuss borders in a meaningful way when your primary concern is "are they just moving into an attack position" and your partner's primary concern is "how quickly can I move into an attack position".
 
2009-06-15 08:57:55 PM
SacriliciousBeerSwiller: scally1: This is what I see.

Palestine : We want our own country, with military, etc.

Israel : We would be willing to allow this if 1) you recognize us as a Jewish state and 2) you stop dedicating yourself to killing us.

Palestine : That is completely unreasonable.

Are they really arguing over the semantics of what a "Jewish state" is?

Well, you're wrong from the outset. Netanyahu has said the state can have no military under any conditions.

Which is of course completely ridiculous. He's effectively saying they can have no state, but he lacks the balls to be direct about it.


Japan doesn't have a military. Just sayin'
 
2009-06-15 08:59:49 PM
Neokhan : These things have an order. It's really hard to discuss borders in a meaningful way when your primary concern is "are they just moving into an attack position" and your partner's primary concern is "how quickly can I move into an attack position".

Except borders ARE a primary concern.
 
2009-06-15 09:00:46 PM
Benjimin_Dover: I only took Clinton's own account of the situation as described by him. I guess he lied about that too, eh? Another Rebublitard hoax, eh?

you cite it, and ill cite. OK? Ready.

Quest for Mideast Peace: How and Why It Failed

In the tumble of the all-consuming violence, much has not been revealed or examined. Rather, a potent, simplistic narrative has taken hold in Israel and to some extent in the United States. It says: Mr. Barak offered Mr. Arafat the moon at Camp David last summer. Mr. Arafat turned it down, and then "pushed the button" and chose the path of violence. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is insoluble, at least for the forseeable future.

But many diplomats and officials believe that the dynamic was far more complex and that Mr. Arafat does not bear sole responsibility for the breakdown of the peace effort.

There were missteps and successes by Israelis, Palestinians and Americans alike over more than seven years of peace talks between the 1993 Oslo interim agreement and the last negotiating sessions in Taba, Egypt, in January.

Mr. Barak did not offer Mr. Arafat the moon at Camp David. He broke Israeli taboos against any discussion of dividing Jerusalem, and he sketched out an offer that was politically courageous, especially for an Israeli leader with a faltering coalition. But it was a proposal that the Palestinians did not believe would leave them with a viable state. And although Mr. Barak said no Israeli leader could go further, he himself improved considerably on his Camp David proposal six months later.

"Visions in Collision: What Happened at Camp David and Taba?"
 
2009-06-15 09:02:05 PM
NeoKhan: Discuss minor border details.

not minor. Change your post to delete Israeli for Palestinian. How does it read?
 
2009-06-15 09:02:18 PM
Party Boy: Im an American. Im far more interested in this

Netanyahu's failure to announce a settlement freeze clashes directly with President Barack Obama's clear call in Cairo that "it is time for these settlements to stop."


Party Boy: Maul555: and you took effort to leave out

the speculation.


not speculation, when you hit the quote button, the entire quote appears in the text box. You would have had to edit out the rest of my text for your quote to appear as it did. Or are their ghosts in the keyboard?
 
2009-06-15 09:04:17 PM
jakomo002: Neokhan : These things have an order. It's really hard to discuss borders in a meaningful way when your primary concern is "are they just moving into an attack position" and your partner's primary concern is "how quickly can I move into an attack position".

Except borders ARE a primary concern.


The eventual borders do not need to match the initial borders.
You can start with positions determined primarily by military considerations without those positions having to be permanent. Just start with "this is what peaceful coexistence basically looks like", and then negotiate the details afterwards.
 
2009-06-15 09:06:27 PM
Party Boy: NeoKhan: Discuss minor border details.

not minor. Change your post to delete Israeli for Palestinian. How does it read?


If the Palestinians had military superiority, the Israelis would all be dead. And if they weren't dead, they certainly wouldn't be launching mortars at random civilians.
 
2009-06-15 09:06:31 PM
Maul555: not speculation

So wheres your proof?

-----

Israel's Lawyer
Unfortunately, too often we lose sight of the need to be advocates for both Arabs and Israelis. The most recent example of this was the Clinton administration's effort in 1999-2000 to broker final deals between Israel, Syria and the Palestinians.

With the best of motives and intentions, we listened to and followed Israel's lead without critically examining what that would mean for our own interests, for those on the Arab side and for the overall success of the negotiations. The "no surprises" policy, under which we had to run everything by Israel first, stripped our policy of the independence and flexibility required for serious peacemaking. If we couldn't put proposals on the table without checking with the Israelis first, and refused to push back when they said no, how effective could our mediation be? Far too often, particularly when it came to Israeli-Palestinian diplomacy, our departure point was not what was needed to reach an agreement acceptable to both sides but what would pass with only one -- Israel.

This critique should not diminish then-Prime Minister Ehud Barak's boldness at Camp David or Yasser Arafat's failure to negotiate seriously there. But the primary issue was neither Barak's generosity nor Arafat's perfidy; instead, the emphasis should have been on assessing, coldly and objectively, what it would take to reach an agreement acceptable to both sides. If we knew the gaps were too large (and we suspected they were), we should have resisted Barak's pressure to go for a make-or-break summit and then blame the Palestinians when it failed. What we ended up doing was advocating Israel's positions before, during and after the summit.
 
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