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(CNN)   Surging gas prices will most likely lead to a recession within a recession. Which, when you carry the one, adds up to a depression   (money.cnn.com) divider line 90
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2381 clicks; posted to Business » on 06 Jun 2009 at 4:02 PM (5 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2009-06-06 04:00:03 PM
The hedge fund managers are only manipulating oil prices because they have to pay up to 15% in federal taxes. If we allowed them to operate with no taxes, they would have more money and wouldn't be so greedy... and wouldn't rape us because they want more money.

/divided by zero
 
2009-06-06 04:05:53 PM
Obama's reckless borrowing and continuous deficit spending, that makes Bush look like an amateur, is going to destroy the dollar and cause commodities to skyrocket in price, inflate our currency and create a prolonged depression. It'll be fun when interest rates move on up as well.

Can we recall every Keynesian?
 
2009-06-06 04:10:51 PM
The oil price broke in July when the People forced Congress to open up offshore oil drilling and then Bush signed off on it. Now the Bozama has reversed that the prices will go right back up. Add in the devalued Dollar already discussed and we'll all be riding bicycles to the polls next year.
 
2009-06-06 04:13:41 PM
Oh my.

I must look out my "gas price thread bingo" card.

I think we may have completed it in the first three posts.
 
2009-06-06 04:14:02 PM
The farking gas prices are what put us in this predicament in the first place. They bankrupted us with $4/gal gas, no wonder we couldn't pay the bills. We spent it all on gas. We need to stabilize this somehow.

/wharrgarbl yadayada
 
2009-06-06 04:15:39 PM
Cubansaltyballs 2009-06-06 04:00:03 PM The hedge fund managers are only manipulating oil prices because they have to pay up to 15% in federal taxes. If we allowed them to operate with no taxes, they would have more money and wouldn't be so greedy... and wouldn't rape us because they want more money. /divided by zero
=============================

I assume you're being moderately sarcastic, so I won't yell at you.

Instead I'll say that they got 90 billion last year and wanted more. Even if you take away the taxes (which mostly just cancel out all the subsidies we STILL give them) they'll still want more.
 
2009-06-06 04:17:50 PM
FTFA: "rising hopes of a U.S. economic rebound have helped push oil prices higher..."

Gee, I hope the economy improves. Hey let's invest in oil so it won't!
 
2009-06-06 04:19:31 PM
StrikitRich: The oil price broke in July when the People forced Congress to open up offshore oil drilling and then Bush signed off on it. Now the Bozama has reversed that the prices will go right back up. Add in the devalued Dollar already discussed and we'll all be riding bicycles to the polls next year.

9/10

Nice troll, not too heavy with a nice "Bozama" hook. This should get some nice bites.
 
2009-06-06 04:19:47 PM
godofusa.com: Obama's reckless borrowing and continuous deficit spending, that makes Bush look like an amateur, is going to destroy the dollar and cause commodities to skyrocket in price, inflate our currency and create a prolonged depression. It'll be fun when interest rates move on up as well.

Can we recall every Keynesian?


Well the USD is only down about ~8% against the Euro since December... yet gas prices & crude oil prices are up 40%

I was in Ireland in December, and 1 x Euro was about $1.25, and now is ~1.40.

So bottom line is that our currency losing value isn't the cause on this run up in gas prices. Neither is demand. Demand is down, supply is up... and the price is up.

I would typically agree with you about market forces and the economy and how they relate to currency inflation. Not in this case. What is happening now is that people are gaming the system to drive the price of oil higher. Some of them need it to go higher because they have tankers full of oil and it is costing them money to keep them afloat, and if the price doesnt soar very soon, they will lose a lot.

In a few months, there will be a crash in oil prices. There will be so much oil and no demand for it. In order to avoid this crash, Opec countries would need to halt production. This is unlikely because oil is the only source of revenue for many Opec countries. So in 3-6 months, when everyone is still pumping oil and there is no where to store it because no one is buying, because the price is artificially inflated... the price will fall faster then a share of Bear Stearns in 2008.
 
2009-06-06 04:20:05 PM
opiumpoopy: Oh my.

I must look out my "gas price thread bingo" card.

I think we may have completed it in the first three posts.



That was pretty priceless, wasn't it?

There should be some sort of "Fark Echo Chamber Generic Post" numbering system
 
2009-06-06 04:20:20 PM
StrikitRich: The oil price broke in July when the People forced Congress to open up offshore oil drilling and then Bush signed off on it. Now the Bozama has reversed that the prices will go right back up. Add in the devalued Dollar already discussed and we'll all be riding bicycles to the polls next year.


Yeah it had nothing to do with the economy tanking or the economy recovering.

Reality and you should get together sometime.


godofusa.com: Obama's reckless borrowing and continuous deficit spending, that makes Bush look like an amateur, is going to destroy the dollar and cause commodities to skyrocket in price, inflate our currency and create a prolonged depression. It'll be fun when interest rates move on up as well.

Can we recall every Keynesian?



Wharrgarbl scary black man ooga booga
 
2009-06-06 04:22:02 PM
flanger001 2009-06-06 04:14:02 PM The farking gas prices are what put us in this predicament in the first place. They bankrupted us with $4/gal gas, no wonder we couldn't pay the bills. We spent it all on gas. We need to stabilize this somehow. /wharrgarbl yadayada
=================================================

Yup! It wasn't because of 'buying homes that were too expensive'. They could afford them when they bought them, but having to pay for $4/gal gas broke most people. (that also counts for heating oil as well). And not to mention everything made from gas or transported with gas (which is everything) surged prices upwards.

It's a recession CAUSED by inflation. Which if you know anything about econ 101, it's that recessions are not caused by inflation. When recessions are caused by inflation, it's BAD. Because the only way to get yourself out of a recession is, indeed, inflation.

Which inflation put you there in the first place, you're screwed.

You just have to wait until it settles. Until then, suck it up and hope for the best :)
 
2009-06-06 04:26:49 PM
i280.photobucket.com

Unamused by headline shenanigans.
 
2009-06-06 04:29:21 PM
Alright, Michigan! Number one in yet another shiat-tastic category! I'm so happy to live here.
 
2009-06-06 04:29:58 PM
jake3988: It's a recession CAUSED by inflation. Which if you know anything about econ 101, it's that recessions are not caused by inflation. When recessions are caused by inflation, it's BAD. Because the only way to get yourself out of a recession is, indeed, inflation.

The problem is that there can't be inflation, at least from a wage perspective, at present.

That's because, thanks to the green revolution, science, containerization, etc, there are a billion newly-off-the-farm Chinese/Indian/SEAsians ready to do anything for nearly nothing. As a result, wages are seriously constrained from matching inflation here.

In a more protectionist system, price inflation would be matched by wage inflation, leaving people at the same purchasing-power, but benefiting debtors and soaking creditors. However, we don't need half the jobs that are in the West, now.
 
2009-06-06 04:31:11 PM
crab66:
Yeah it had nothing to do with the economy tanking or the economy recovering.

Reality and you should get together sometime.


Are you both saying that the high fuel prices didn't accelerate the economic slow down? If you are then it's you that needs to visit reality.

Goetz: Nice troll, not too heavy with a nice "Bozama" hook. This should get some nice bites.

It's all about supply and demand. If the perceived future supply is expanded then the prices will fall. Now the it's been politically restricted they're going back up along with the devaluing of the currency.
 
2009-06-06 04:32:11 PM
jake3988: It's a recession CAUSED by inflation. Which if you know anything about econ 101, it's that recessions are not caused by inflation. When recessions are caused by inflation, it's BAD. Because the only way to get yourself out of a recession is, indeed, inflation.

Which inflation put you there in the first place, you're screwed.


Not exactly. Higher oil prices may have led to a result that looks like inflation, but it was most clearly not...

What happened to oil prices, and is happening again, is identical to what happened to California energy prices in 2000-2001. Market forces didn't lead to higher prices because of higher demand and less supply. It was artificially manipulated by Enron who removed supply from the market, in order to increase prices. People are jacking with the prices to make money, and the country is suffering because of it. More people notice now because it is happening everywhere, not just in CA.
 
2009-06-06 04:36:41 PM
Well, shiat. It's like every CEO is in love with Karl Marx and is following his books as exact blueprints instead of a stern warning. This recession is going to be really painful.
 
2009-06-06 04:38:52 PM
My solution to high gas prices:

www.totalmotorcycle.com

/I've ridden it every day that temps at night are above 40...
//Unfortunately that doesn't usually happen until June where I live....
 
2009-06-06 04:40:03 PM
Cubansaltyballs: What happened to oil prices, and is happening again, is identical to what happened to California energy prices in 2000-2001. Market forces didn't lead to higher prices because of higher demand and less supply. It was artificially manipulated by Enron who removed supply from the market, in order to increase prices. People are jacking with the prices to make money, and the country is suffering because of it. More people notice now because it is happening everywhere, not just in CA.

And how is that different than what the Government is doing? The repeal of the offshore oil drilling ban opened up potential supply causing prices to drop even more quickly last year as we went into the recession. Now that the ban is back in effect prices are going back up as future supply perceived to be limited.

ARe you saying that it's alright when a government does it?
 
2009-06-06 04:40:27 PM
StrikitRich: Goetz: Nice troll, not too heavy with a nice "Bozama" hook. This should get some nice bites.

It's all about supply and demand. If the perceived future supply is expanded then the prices will fall. Now the it's been politically restricted they're going back up along with the devaluing of the currency.


Not accurate at all.

The supply, or even perceived supply is not what is causing speculators to buy oil at ever-higher prices. They are using oil futures as a financial instrument to bet on the price. With so many speculators buying oil for this same reason, it kind of becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Think about a run on a rank for example... someone says the bank is collapsing because there is a run on it, now everyone who hears this will yank their money out of that bank and cause its collapse.

Look up LTCM in the 1990's if you want to read about self-fulfilling prophecy.

This is what is happening with oil prices. Everyone is saying "ZOMG!!!! Oil prices are going up because the economy is recovering!!! We better get in there and make some money on rising oil prices!!" Something like that usually would be a blip, becomes a bubble... if 1,000 hedge funds buy oil to make money and are betting the price will go higher, it will edge ever higher. until it is reaches critical mass and the economy implodes.

Motion creates a motion. Unregulated commodity trading creates a smoldering economy.
 
2009-06-06 04:45:12 PM
Cubansaltyballs: In a few months, there will be a crash in oil prices. There will be so much oil and no demand for it. In order to avoid this crash, Opec countries would need to halt production. This is unlikely because oil is the only source of revenue for many Opec countries. So in 3-6 months, when everyone is still pumping oil and there is no where to store it because no one is buying, because the price is artificially inflated... the price will fall faster then a share of Bear Stearns in 2008.

Insha'Allah.
 
2009-06-06 04:45:34 PM
StrikitRich: And how is that different than what the Government is doing? The repeal of the offshore oil drilling ban opened up potential supply causing prices to drop even more quickly last year as we went into the recession. Now that the ban is back in effect prices are going back up as future supply perceived to be limited.

ARe you saying that it's alright when a government does it?


No. I'm saying that the actual of even perceived supply was not even part of the equation. The price of oil is artificially high because some people have gamed the system, on purpose or just as an adverse result, and prices have soared.

Ask yourself this... are diamonds expensive because there relatively few diamond mines in the US?
 
2009-06-06 04:47:09 PM
Kar98: Insha'Allah.

o_O
 
2009-06-06 04:52:27 PM
Fluffy_the_cactus: My solution to high gas prices:



/I've ridden it every day that temps at night are above 40...
//Unfortunately that doesn't usually happen until June where I live....


My solution:

video.cannondale.com

/my car is 8 years old - only 50k miles on it
//mostly from road trips to chicago
///that link is hot like the wharrgarbl in this thread
 
2009-06-06 04:53:14 PM
I've started to ride my bike the 12 miles to work. Not because of gas prices, but because of my expanding belly. But, a nice side effect is that I don't fill up the tank on one of the cars as much. The wife still shuttles the kids everywhere, so we're still getting raped at the pump.
 
2009-06-06 04:54:56 PM
Cubansaltyballs: StrikitRich:

Ask yourself this... are diamonds expensive because there relatively few diamond mines in the US?



Whoa there fella....no one can manipulate prices(like a cartel or group of cartels maybe)....that's unpossible.
 
2009-06-06 05:00:48 PM
crab66: StrikitRich: The oil price broke in July when the People forced Congress to open up offshore oil drilling and then Bush signed off on it. Now the Bozama has reversed that the prices will go right back up. Add in the devalued Dollar already discussed and we'll all be riding bicycles to the polls next year.


Yeah it had nothing to do with the economy tanking or the economy recovering.

Reality and you should get together sometime.


godofusa.com: Obama's reckless borrowing and continuous deficit spending, that makes Bush look like an amateur, is going to destroy the dollar and cause commodities to skyrocket in price, inflate our currency and create a prolonged depression. It'll be fun when interest rates move on up as well.

Can we recall every Keynesian?


Wharrgarbl scary black man ooga booga


I was referring to Keynesian economic theory, not the fact that he was born in Kenya.
 
2009-06-06 05:01:27 PM
My solution to high gas prices:
95 miles per gallon (new window)
i269.photobucket.com

A 125 will top out at 65 mph and is perfect for that short commute/errand. It's fast enough for any trip other than on the highway. For the highway, I'm usually with the wife and want a/c and music, so we take the car.
 
2009-06-06 05:02:43 PM
So what would the effect of an artificial price ceiling be on a product that isn't following normal supply and demand laws..
 
2009-06-06 05:12:11 PM
SVC_conservative: So what would the effect of an artificial price ceiling be on a product that isn't following normal supply and demand laws..

Shortages, lines at the pump. Just like a product that does follow supply and demand norms.
 
2009-06-06 05:12:32 PM
godofusa.com: Can we recall every Keynesian?


Wharrgarbl scary black man ooga booga

I was referring to Keynesian economic theory, not the fact that he was born in Kenya.


If I remember Keynes correctly, he basically said that demand creates a need for supply... which drives the cycle of the economy. I think he also said occasionally governments should intervene and stimulate by creating jobs, which will enable the workers to take part in the demand side of the equation. Kinda like those old sh*tpile cars that need a push start every now and again... once you push it and get it moving, it will move under its own power for awhile.

The supply-side theory says if you build a factory and build widgets, people will have jobs and people will buy widgets.This was proven wrong many many times. In the 30's interest rates were low, which should have enabled factory owners to borrow at low rates and expand factories, etc... in reality they weren't going to spend more money building widgets people did not want or could not afford to buy.

In recent months/years, supply-side has also failed us when you think about GM and Chrysler. Theoretically they are building cars, which should keep the economy churning because factory workers are earning money, etc...

Bottom line is that the economy is driven by the consumer, not the supplier. This is where the idea of public-works projects comes in to play. If the gov't spends money on things that are needed like roads, dams, etc... those workers will be helping push start the local economies.
 
2009-06-06 05:18:59 PM
Dubai Vol: SVC_conservative: So what would the effect of an artificial price ceiling be on a product that isn't following normal supply and demand laws..

Shortages, lines at the pump. Just like a product that does follow supply and demand norms.


I'm not so sure about that. Things have changed a lot since the 70s. There are a lot of counties that survive solely off their oil sales.

For example, if you set a price limit of $40 per barrel, many countries would keep the supply going because that still allows them to be profitable. Other countries might stop shipping oil, but they would lose market share. Other countries might step up and sell their oil, etc...

What happened in the 70s could possibly happen again, but the landscape has changed. Think of Saudi Arabia for example... they will keep selling their oil to us at any cost because of two things: They cannot eat their oil, and we can power our cars with corn. For us, having their cheap oil allows us to prosper. For them, selling their oil allows them to survive. Which probably explains why they have such disdain for us.
 
2009-06-06 05:50:33 PM
godofusa.com: crab66:

I was referring to Keynesian economic theory, not the fact that he was born in Kenya.


Yes I can read. What I said still applies.

I just want add..

An unregulated free market doesn't work for the same reason communism doesn't work.
 
2009-06-06 06:02:43 PM
crab66: godofusa.com: crab66:

I was referring to Keynesian economic theory, not the fact that he was born in Kenya.

Yes I can read. What I said still applies.

I just want add..

An unregulated free market doesn't work for the same reason communism doesn't work.


We haven't had an unregulated market in decades. There's too much government!!

To quote Walter Williams:

You can decide whether we have in an unregulated laissez-faire economy. There are 15 cabinet departments, nine of which control various aspects of the U.S. economy. They are the Departments of: Transportation, Housing and Urban Development, Health and Human Services, Education, Energy, Labor, Agriculture, Commerce, and Interior.

In addition, there is the alphabet soup cluster of federal agencies such as: the IRS, the FRB and FDIC, the EPA, FDA, SEC, CFTC, NLRB, FTC, FCC, FERC, FEMA, FAA, CAA, INS, OHSA, CPSC, NHTSA, EEOC, BATF, DEA, NIH, and NASA.

Here's my question to you: Can one be sane and at the same time hold that ours is an unregulated laissez-faire economy? Better yet, tell me what a businessman, or for that matter you, can do that does not involve some kind of government regulation.

A businessman must seek government approval for the minutest detail of his operation or face the wrath of some government agency, whether it's at the federal, state or local level. Just about everything we buy or use has some kind of government dictate involved whether it's package labeling, how many gallons of water to flush toilets or what pharmaceuticals can be prescribed.

You say, "Williams, there's a reason for this government control." Yes, there's a reason for everything but that does not change the fact that there is massive government control over our economy.
 
2009-06-06 06:15:36 PM
Yes so much terrible regulation that no one stopped Madoff or prevented this recession. The free market doesn't work, it's too unstable and vulnerable to greed.
 
2009-06-06 06:19:09 PM
crab66

Yes so much terrible regulation that no one stopped Madoff or prevented this recession. The free market doesn't work, it's too unstable and vulnerable to greed.


yea, and your 5 year plans worked out so well for the old Soviet Union.

Lets look at Canada, they had a 10 year plan to fix the 3 year wait for a MRI. Its been 10 years, yes they spent the money, and drum roll...... the wait is still...... 3 years.
 
2009-06-06 06:21:46 PM
If you had any intelligence what so ever, you would have bought a hybrid during this last oil downturn as many truly smart people did. Now the rest of you get to visit "Pain @ the pump ver. 2.0" good luck with that you American made, gas guzzlin', hulks of inefficiency driving, deserve what you're about to be getting, never learning wing-nuts!
 
2009-06-06 06:23:39 PM
get in your Hummer and use some fuel, I need another foot of water at my dock, and I say burn gas burn..

Take her out for a spin will you, and help me out.
 
2009-06-06 06:31:26 PM
crab66: Yes so much terrible regulation that no one stopped Madoff or prevented this recession. The free market America doesn't work, it's too unstable and vulnerable to greed because it's our true religion that nobody dares question.

Fixed that for me. Obama could have 95% approval if he figures out exactly why the gas prices are going up when the economy is still doing poorly.
 
2009-06-06 06:34:08 PM
winterwhile: crab66

Yes so much terrible regulation that no one stopped Madoff or prevented this recession. The free market doesn't work, it's too unstable and vulnerable to greed.

yea, and your 5 year plans worked out so well for the old Soviet Union.

Lets look at Canada, they had a 10 year plan to fix the 3 year wait for a MRI. Its been 10 years, yes they spent the money, and drum roll...... the wait is still...... 3 years.


What the hell are you rambling about? Some bullshiat talking point you found on a right wing blog?

Must be nice to wait about 10-12 weeks(real number)instead of not being able to get an MRI at all like the 40+ million people here without health care.

Waiting is better than nothing.

Anyway

archive.salon.com
 
2009-06-06 06:34:54 PM
Guntram Shatterhand

Fixed that for me. Obama could have 95% approval if he figures out exactly why the gas prices are going up when the economy is still doing poorly.


Chairman Obama know's exactly why gas is going up. With the dollar tied to oil prices, and you print money on the dollar side, you get an increase on the oil side.

It really is that simple. He comes the $30 $300 cheesburger
 
2009-06-06 06:37:49 PM
crab66

those numbers come from a Canadian Public health web site. I to was suprised, they would show how badly their 10 year plan worked.

By the way, just how do 10 year plans work??????
 
2009-06-06 06:42:34 PM
Guntram Shatterhand: crab66: Yes so much terrible regulation that no one stopped Madoff or prevented this recession. The free market America doesn't work, it's too unstable and vulnerable to greed because it's our true religion that nobody dares question.

Fixed that for me. Obama could have 95% approval if he figures out exactly why the gas prices are going up when the economy is still doing poorly.

Oil prices have been soaring for months despite a massive surplus of petroleum and natural gas. A large amount of speculative money has flowed into the markets, according to government reports, potentially taking advantage of a weak U.S. currency.




The sad part is that all these greedy douches are going to squeeze so hard they choke off a recovery before it even starts. Then you can say hello to a real depression. Free market at work. Rich people will be fine either way.

And then we can blame it all on politics or over regulation or magical fairies when the real problem is human nature.
 
2009-06-06 06:43:22 PM
winterwhile: crab66

those numbers come from a Canadian Public health web site. I to was suprised, they would show how badly their 10 year plan worked.

By the way, just how do 10 year plans work??????




Try and make at least a little sense please.
 
2009-06-06 07:45:57 PM
Spanky_McFarksalot: FTFA: "rising hopes of a U.S. economic rebound have helped push oil prices higher..."

Gee, I hope the economy improves. Hey let's invest in oil so it won't!


No kidding. If there were ever and example of how the interests of wealthy people (who do the majority of investing in commodity speculation) are in conflict with the majority of everyone else, this is it.

Fark 'em, eat the rich.
 
2009-06-06 07:50:07 PM
this kind of shiat is why I got one of these since the last time gas prices skyrocketed

www.btwebworld.com
 
2009-06-06 08:15:43 PM
crab66

potentially taking advantage of a weak U.S. currency.


WELL, IF YOU PRINT MONEY thats what you get. Funny how you can't see it, must be all the Chairman Obama coolaid you are drinking?
 
2009-06-06 08:16:43 PM
winterwhile: WELL, IF YOU PRINT MONEY thats what you get. Funny how you can't see it, must be all the Chairman Obama coolaid you are drinking?

HEY! Don't make fun of our new supreme chancellor like that.
 
2009-06-06 08:20:31 PM
All I see is wharrgarbl MUSTARD wharrgarbl.
 
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